Thread: The end of the Australian Ford

Originally Posted by PAT303

I don't think I'm biased at all, Ford and Holden have done nothing,and I mean absolutely nothing in regards to innovation vehicle wise whether it's design,manufacture,materials nothing.You make the comparison from the RRC to the L405 and think the Ford and Holden are no different,well the two Australian vehicles have cast iron engines and gearbox's only a generation or two above the RRC and are still made from pressed mild steel sheet spot welded together.The L405 uses graphite composite blocks with the most modern gearbox's ZF makes wrapped up in hydra formed alloy bodies for a start.I'd like you to follow me through the outback in a Holden or Ford,can take the punishment can they?,suspension that works?,trying hard not to laugh mate seriously,they are made from the cheapest parts both makers can acquire. Pat

Hmmmm, not sure where to start with this, however DiscoClax has provided a response which covers most of it!

When I resurrected this thread, I was hoping that this wouldn't degenerate into more of 'local cars are crap, good riddance', there's been 8 previous pages of that, but yours is as valid an opinion as anyone's.

Like DiscoClax, I am an engineer at Ford who has, according to you, contributed absolutely nothing to further the development of the motor industry. However myself, along with DiscoClax and over a thousand other engineers here have designed, engineered and developed many vehicles for overseas markets and as he points out, industry innovations for the local market. Our 'pride and joy' at the moment is currently the success of the Ranger and Everest.

I agree that it is a shame that we, as an engineering workforce, haven't been able to showcase the ability of local engineering with more locally made, innovative products. But that's all a bit of a moot point now.

By the way, myself and many others here have also been engineers at Land Rover. Does that now make your impression of Land Rover worse......?

There is a program covering this on Ch 2 tonight in Melbourne.
I ain't denigrating anyone, I've been into cars all my life, knew many people involved, particularly Holden, over the years, I know what an exciting place Fishermans bend was, and how enthusiastic all the "Holden Workers" were.
Reasons for failure?....ain't going there,..everyone's got a position on that, go to google,& ya'll see hundreds,....all different.
But what I believe was needed was a good export program for our cars, I know Holden tried very hard, for a long time, but couldn't do it.
Now, as we have a "Ford Man" here, perhaps you can answer me. IMHO, the Ford Territory was a BRILLIANT vehicle, totally Aussie designed, & nothing like it anywhere else in the World,.....SO,...why wasn't it exported?
Pickles.

Originally Posted by DieselDan

Hmmmm, not sure where to start with this, however DiscoClax has provided a response which covers most of it!

When I resurrected this thread, I was hoping that this wouldn't degenerate into more of 'local cars are crap, good riddance', there's been 8 previous pages of that, but yours is as valid an opinion as anyone's.

Like DiscoClax, I am an engineer at Ford who has, according to you, contributed absolutely nothing to further the development of the motor industry. However myself, along with DiscoClax and over a thousand other engineers here have designed, engineered and developed many vehicles for overseas markets and as he points out, industry innovations for the local market. Our 'pride and joy' at the moment is currently the success of the Ranger and Everest.

I agree that it is a shame that we, as an engineering workforce, haven't been able to showcase the ability of local engineering with more locally made, innovative products. But that's all a bit of a moot point now.

By the way, myself and many others here have also been engineers at Land Rover. Does that now make your impression of Land Rover worse......?

Mate I started as an apprentice in the car industry 29 odd years ago so your not the only one with experience in this area.Sorry to make to make this personal but for all your hard work,and I'm not calling your competency into question,you didn't move with the market so were left behind.Look at the Discovery,the D1 was a 90's vehicle,look at the D5,it's a 2016 vehicle,look at the difference 26 years of changing with the market makes and the success that goes with it.The thing I feel sorry about is the experienced people manufacturing will loose like yourself and DiscoClax when the industry winds up. Pat

Originally Posted by PAT303

The thing I feel sorry about is the experienced people manufacturing will loose like yourself and DiscoClax when the industry winds up. Pat

Yes, very sad situation,but it is not just the people employed at the car manufacturing plants,it is the massive knock on effect with all the other companies that also supplied services,parts,or whatever to these plants.

Originally Posted by PAT303

Mate I started as an apprentice in the car industry 29 odd years ago so your not the only one with experience in this area.Sorry to make to make this personal but for all your hard work,and I'm not calling your competency into question,you didn't move with the market so were left behind.Look at the Discovery,the D1 was a 90's vehicle,look at the D5,it's a 2016 vehicle,look at the difference 26 years of changing with the market makes and the success that goes with it.The thing I feel sorry about is the experienced people manufacturing will loose like yourself and DiscoClax when the industry winds up. Pat

A D1 to D5 isn't changing with the market, it's making the same vehicle in the same category of vehicle, just newer. (Just like the Falcodore!!)
But is fortunate that the market it is in is expanding. Unlike the market for big saloon cars. If there was no market for a Disco, LR wouldn't make it.

Anyway, I understand what you're trying to say - the type of cars produced locally didn't change enough with the change in consumer demands. Attempts were made; SUV by Ford, small car by Holden and hybrids by Toyota but obviously to no avail.

The reasons for the closure of local production are many and have all been mentioned previously. Take your pick from any or all of:
Most competitive car market in the world; lowest gov't subsidies for car makers in the world; lowest import tariffs for foreign cars in the world; lack of export success; successively smaller market share/lack of diverse production.....

All of which leads to not making any money and it gets to the point where the company bigwigs pull the pin.

The likes of myself and Discoclax are lucky in that the local car companies, Ford especially, have essentially got 2 functions - design/engineering and production. Only the production is closing down (as sad as that is) but the design/engineering is staying and we'll be developing many new cars for here and overseas. It's just a shame that none of them will be built here.

In the past local companies have built successful small to medium cars e.g. Laser, Gemini, Torana, Corolla and more recently Cruze and Camry. But the decision not to concentrate on improving the Cruze, or to build the Ranger and Everest here, or to design a new Territory, meant the locally built offerings missed the growth segments in the market, which are small cars and SUVs. Also, exports are essential, but not enough happened. Why not? Didn't foreign owned companies have enough commitment to making munufacturing successful here? It seems like a frustrating missed opportunity.
Also, we only got a vehicle building industry in the first place because past governments adopted protectionist policies, which history has shown are highly successful in causing companies to locate plants in the countries which make them welcome, but recent Australian governments reject industry protection, so we're putting ideology ahead of what works in practice. Is that a good idea - you decide.

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

Now, as we have a "Ford Man" here, perhaps you can answer me. IMHO, the Ford Territory was a BRILLIANT vehicle, totally Aussie designed, & nothing like it anywhere else in the World,.....SO,...why wasn't it exported?
Pickles.

It was. To Thailand. You know, that mob that makes a third of the cars sold in our market? That mob that we signed a free-trade agreement with to remove tariffs? That mob that immediately imposed massive penalties and taxes on any car coming from Australia so that a Territory suddenly cost the equivalent of $100k over there and was competing with prestige marques. And our government just rolled over and took it without a murmur. I refer you to my earlier comments on the mythical 'level playing field' that is supposed to exist. Every other country in the world protects their industries where we seem to be hell-bent on destroying ours and relying on stuff dug out of the ground.

The Territory was also exported to South Africa where it sold in relatively low but solid numbers consistently for years and years. Tickford/Prodrive did the post-production tweaks for those units (specific local content changes) and there was a solid stream going through. But that government didn't shaft us, so that made it feasible.

There's no doubt the market moved away from passenger cars, and still is, and that's what we traditionally made. Attempts were made to diversify but the other global players effectively made that infeasible by the time these options were seriously considered. The 1-tonner and SUV market has exploded and everyone wants a piece. When Bentley and Porsche are making SUVs you can see where the market is at. Anyway, would have, should have, could have. It's all moot now. And we are all the poorer for it.

Originally Posted by DiscoClax

It was. To Thailand. You know, that mob that makes a third of the cars sold in our market? That mob that we signed a free-trade agreement with to remove tariffs? That mob that immediately imposed massive penalties and taxes on any car coming from Australia so that a Territory suddenly cost the equivalent of $100k over there and was competing with prestige marques. And our government just rolled over and took it without a murmur. I refer you to my earlier comments on the mythical 'level playing field' that is supposed to exist. Every other country in the world protects their industries where we seem to be hell-bent on destroying ours and relying on stuff dug out of the ground.

The Territory was also exported to South Africa where it sold in relatively low but solid numbers consistently for years and years. Tickford/Prodrive did the post-production tweaks for those units (specific local content changes) and there was a solid stream going through. But that government didn't shaft us, so that made it feasible.

There's no doubt the market moved away from passenger cars, and still is, and that's what we traditionally made. Attempts were made to diversify but the other global players effectively made that infeasible by the time these options were seriously considered. The 1-tonner and SUV market has exploded and everyone wants a piece. When Bentley and Porsche are making SUVs you can see where the market is at. Anyway, would have, should have, could have. It's all moot now. And we are all the poorer for it.

The markets that you mention are relatively small.......the market I'm speaking of is the U.S.A.....why didn't it go there?...There is nothing like it there,....imho it would've done very well,...with one proviso, & I believe this is the most important aspect of ANY motor vehicle export program,.....the Parent Company, in this case, Ford (Dearborn?) have to want it, and they have to promote it, with their dealers, & with buyers,.....and if they don't want to do that, nothing will work.... that is why the Monaro/Pontiac program never worked as it could've,.....very little enthusiiasm from GM,..nothing wrong with the car, the build quality was heaps better than U.S. stuff at the time, according to reports I read. However, had this export program not eventuated in even the small numbers that it did, Monaro production in Aus would not have continued for as long as it did. I owned a couple myself,....magnificent cars.
IMHO, the demise of Ford & Holden are as much to do with the attitude of their head offices in the USA, as much as anything that went on here, beause they were controlling all of the big decisions.
Pickles.