Am I Too Sensitive?

I couldn't resist replying to this thread. On my 3rd RRS, by choice, not because anything went wrong, just updating. Sick and tired of defending them to my so called friends who mainly drive Prados and LC's.
Towed a 3 1/2 ton Bushtracker around Oz twice and many other trips eg Cape York, Gibb River, Tanami etc. Travel in comfort with much better fuel economy than the latest LC. No need to spend 2 to 3k on suspension upgrades. No need for a service every 10,000k's. Looks better, goes better and is a quality vehicle. I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by bln

In the last Pat Callinans 4x4 magazine (issue 028) there was a great letter to the editor "Land Rover Loyal". Basically the letter was about a bloke who has been very happy with the many land rovers that he has had in the past. The editor (Scott) responded with something like "its great to hear from a Land Rover Tragic (most of them involving mechanical repairs)...." . Well that's like a red rag to a bull for me. Ive owned 5 land rovers now over the years and I have never had any sort of reliability issues. The odd repairs required from time to time but no more than you'd expect from any other type of 4x4.
Are the 4x4 mags perpetuating an untruth and misrepresenting Land Rover? On what grounds do they claim LR to be unreliable - where is the evidence?. As far as know, and from my experience they are solid reliable 4x4s that excell at there intended use.
I own a small business and I had 3 hiluxs and 2 prados - we had continual problems with them - oil leaks, gearbox overheating, tail shaft faults, recalls as wel l as faulty injectors. These are well known faults so why aren't journalists critical of Toyotas? We have since moved to colorados and our running costs have significantly dropped. I personally traded in my prado for a D4 and the difference is like chalk and cheese.
So my question is - should we be tolerating false journalism or am I just too sensitive? Should Land Rover be tolerating false statements.
I could go on rambling but i look forward to reading what others think.
cheers

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Well to add my bit; I'm on my 4th Land Rover. I've owned them on and off for a total of 27 years with other vehicles and brands in between. Nothing compares so I keep coming back to LR. First was a new Series III SWB (petrol) in 1975 which I drove with the family of 5 of us and overloaded to the hilt across Australia north to south (Cape York, Uluru, Meekatharra), west to east (across the various deserts), throughout the Victoria and Tasmania high country and around the edge of Australia for 250,000Kms+ over 6 years - with no other vehicles along with us. While it leaked oil from the hub seals it never broke down and never let me down in the worst of conditions. However, when driving around in Melbourne during work after one long, tough trip it broke an axle and the rear diff crown wheel - probably from the overloading earlier. I replaced them with hardened axles and a Salisbury diff (as in the LWB) and never had an issue again. A few years later I bought a new Disco 1 diesel 300tdi and drove that for 5 years and 130,000Kms with no issues whatsoever (cheapest car I've ever owned to service and run) and then traded it onto a new P38A 4 litre V8 petrol Range Rover which I owned until last year for 15 years and 260,000Kms. That was the most beautiful comfortable car for traveling and 4 wheeling. Superior in every way to all the other 4wd vehicles I'd driven or owned (all the Japanese brands). I had an EAS problem 2 weeks from new which was fixed and no trouble again and a leaking head gasket on one side - replaced and never an issue again. Converted to LPG for half its life - cheap to run and relatively inexpensive to service. So last year I sold the P38 and bought a 2008 RRS L320.1 TDV6 with only 66,000Kms on it. Its absolutely beautiful, economical, quiet and smooth and so far the best long distance traveler and the couple of services I've had so far have been cheaper than on the P38. Love it, and I can only say again that I've driven almost everything else out there and nothing compares. I've had no faults so far on this one but over the years I've trusted our lives in very remote locations and they've never let me down.

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Originally Posted by DiscoMick

For a reliability survey to be meaningful every vehicle would have to be driven by the same driver in the same way over the same terrain the same number of times in the same conditions and given the same maintenance. Doesn't happen.

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Incorrect, on average they would have to be similar, and lets not get into standard deviations of variance

My first 4WD WAS a 1988 Pajero, learnt a lot in that car, you know, learnt to fix the gearbox ‘twice’ learnt how to replace a clutch, and take the engine out. Nice to drive though. Then in 1992 I decided to buy a “real” 4WD, I test drove A Land Cruiser ( banged my head on the A pillar first time I got in it) Then a Nissan Patrol ( very narrow foot well ) that’s about all I can remember, then a 3 door Land Rover Discovery TDI 2.5, just climbed in and it fit like a glove. That was the extent of my research. Fortunately I hadn’t heard how unreliable my Disco was going to be, 200,000 +km later I did the same research and bought a TD5 250,000km later I bought a Defender 2.5 TDI, that’s when it all went pear-shaped, the computer died at about 30,000km and had to be replaced under warranty, then the drivers door seal split, replaced under warranty, that was it I could see how “unreliable” it was going to be so about 280,000km I got a D3, that cost me a new turbo and 2 injectors, 2 front lower wishbones, now I have a D4, not because I’m a Land Rover tragic, but because when it came time for a new vehicle, the test drive was what made my decision, nothing else. My experience is most knockers of anything have never owned or experienced the product they knock they tend to operate on nothing more than hearsay. I could go on about friends with other brands, but I don’t care about opinions and comments that came from a magazine that gets paid for advertising by manufactures. Are we too sensitive……….No just a bit tired of all the BS ! All my LR’s have been used off road quite a lot, and for towing caravan 2100kg, the D3 & 4 tow a 3500kg caravan, If when I’m ready to update I will do the same as always. Rant over !:soapbox:

What can you believe and what should you be sensitive about. I once thought journalists basically gave an unbiased report of the known facts. I have since learnt that money talks and personal bias affects how things are presented and how they are received. If something gets reported that supports your own personal views you tend to have greater acceptance for the messenger, that's why we have Andrew Bolt. He must have an audience he can play to, or is that just one of the reasons for network 10 success!

The 4wd mags require advertising to survive and the advertisers require a market to sell too. It makes sense that ARB advertise in 4wd mags as they and the mags have a common market. I am a lot more suspicious about vehicle makes that sponsor the magazines or provide personal vehicles to the journalists. When the scribe drives an Amrock or LC and is full of praise for his steed you have to take it with a pinch of salt when you know the vehicle manufacturer sponsors the magazine or TV program. Money talks.

don't let facts get in the way of a good story and let's not confuse things with poorly gathered or used statistics. We all have our personal bias and will scrutinise anything contrary to our view with greater skepticism than things that support our mental model of the world. That is just human nature. All quodos to people who can design experiments to get outcomes that support fact based decision making. However it is not the scientists who work with statistical based information that get to make the decisions that influence the majority of us, just look at our political system where bias Trumps (pun intended) facts every time.

To the OP, you will grow a thicker skin or will get out of the brand. Don't get wrapped around the axle over rubbish sprouted by people playing to the herd. That applies to advertiser supported journalists and politicians. Just enjoy the benefits of your choice of vehicle and suck up the bad times when things don't go as you wanted. I love my LRs and have convienced others to get into the brand not by what I say but through the experiences that I have shared with them while on trips with my LRs. I am not blind to LR faults, spline wear in gearboxes, chocolate steel axle shafts and diff centre wear. LR have made some poor choices and worse still they have been reluctant to accept they stuffed their loyal owners about, but that is the way of performance based pay for executives.

Enough of my jaded view of the world. I look forward to my next trip with my Defender.

Not that LR did itself any favours with such idiocies as... LT230's being somewhat fragile IF mis-used (not locked when exiting sealed road...) - See advice from a certain English transmission expert who has graced our pages,
- BW transfer cases where the VC is often a 'consumable item', at $1k a pop... followed by the 'fuse' a.k.a Output shaft splines, headlight dip switches which ARE life-limited... and HVAC / fan control switches which also are life-limited. I mean, these are things that the "others" managed to sort out 60 years ago ...

Build quality has a lot to do with owner-perception, and subsequent 'acceptance' of faults, IMHO.

It was the VC in my '95 classic that did it in for me, and the work-around nearly did ME in... - Its gone to a New Home where an LT230 has been transplanted.

But over here in the West, during the heady days of mineral exploration, LR allegedly "would/could not" supply paper air-filters, stubbornly sticking with the superior (?) oil bath type. Great, IF maintained every dusty day, but as Geologists were driving them, such dirty work was problematical.
And the Japs offered - as standard equipment - paper air filters which could be shaken out, RADIOS, and HEATERS (that worked).
And more comfortable seats...

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Originally Posted by DiscoMick

What does reliability mean anyway? We just reported a broken clip on the parcel shelf in the Mazda. Mazda refused to fix it and wants to charge us BTW. That report doesn't show the car is unreliable though.

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...no, just that Mazda is unreliable!

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Originally Posted by Jezzbert

Well to add my bit; I'm on my 4th Land Rover. I've owned them on and off for a total of 27 years with other vehicles and brands in between. Nothing compares so I keep coming back to LR. First was a new Series III SWB (petrol) in 1975 which I drove with the family of 5 of us and overloaded to the hilt across Australia north to south (Cape York, Uluru, Meekatharra), west to east (across the various deserts), throughout the Victoria and Tasmania high country and around the edge of Australia for 250,000Kms+ over 6 years - with no other vehicles along with us. While it leaked oil from the hub seals it never broke down and never let me down in the worst of conditions. However, when driving around in Melbourne during work after one long, tough trip it broke an axle and the rear diff crown wheel - probably from the overloading earlier. I replaced them with hardened axles and a Salisbury diff (as in the LWB) and never had an issue again. A few years later I bought a new Disco 1 diesel 300tdi and drove that for 5 years and 130,000Kms with no issues whatsoever (cheapest car I've ever owned to service and run) and then traded it onto a new P38A 4 litre V8 petrol Range Rover which I owned until last year for 15 years and 260,000Kms. That was the most beautiful comfortable car for traveling and 4 wheeling. Superior in every way to all the other 4wd vehicles I'd driven or owned (all the Japanese brands). I had an EAS problem 2 weeks from new which was fixed and no trouble again and a leaking head gasket on one side - replaced and never an issue again. Converted to LPG for half its life - cheap to run and relatively inexpensive to service. So last year I sold the P38 and bought a 2008 RRS L320.1 TDV6 with only 66,000Kms on it. Its absolutely beautiful, economical, quiet and smooth and so far the best long distance traveler and the couple of services I've had so far have been cheaper than on the P38. Love it, and I can only say again that I've driven almost everything else out there and nothing compares. I've had no faults so far on this one but over the years I've trusted our lives in very remote locations and they've never let me down.

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Great story Jezxbert, thanks for sharing. 👍

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Originally Posted by Jezzbert

Well to add my bit; I'm on my 4th Land Rover. I've owned them on and off for a total of 27 years with other vehicles and brands in between. Nothing compares so I keep coming back to LR. First was a new Series III SWB (petrol) in 1975 which I drove with the family of 5 of us and overloaded to the hilt across Australia north to south (Cape York, Uluru, Meekatharra), west to east (across the various deserts), throughout the Victoria and Tasmania high country and around the edge of Australia for 250,000Kms+ over 6 years - with no other vehicles along with us. While it leaked oil from the hub seals it never broke down and never let me down in the worst of conditions. However, when driving around in Melbourne during work after one long, tough trip it broke an axle and the rear diff crown wheel - probably from the overloading earlier. I replaced them with hardened axles and a Salisbury diff (as in the LWB) and never had an issue again. A few years later I bought a new Disco 1 diesel 300tdi and drove that for 5 years and 130,000Kms with no issues whatsoever (cheapest car I've ever owned to service and run) and then traded it onto a new P38A 4 litre V8 petrol Range Rover which I owned until last year for 15 years and 260,000Kms. That was the most beautiful comfortable car for traveling and 4 wheeling. Superior in every way to all the other 4wd vehicles I'd driven or owned (all the Japanese brands). I had an EAS problem 2 weeks from new which was fixed and no trouble again and a leaking head gasket on one side - replaced and never an issue again. Converted to LPG for half its life - cheap to run and relatively inexpensive to service. So last year I sold the P38 and bought a 2008 RRS L320.1 TDV6 with only 66,000Kms on it. Its absolutely beautiful, economical, quiet and smooth and so far the best long distance traveler and the couple of services I've had so far have been cheaper than on the P38. Love it, and I can only say again that I've driven almost everything else out there and nothing compares. I've had no faults so far on this one but over the years I've trusted our lives in very remote locations and they've never let me down.

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....and to add something from the other end of the ownership spectrum, I own three 110's that are all about 27 years old and other than one self-inflicted incident caused by my own stupidity, they are the toughest, best 4x4's I've ever owned, off road or on.

I love driving my 12' Disco 4, and agree it's the most capable and comfortable out there.
I just can't help but doubt it's reliability. Have owned it for 2 years and it failed on my last planned big trip to Vic high country. In last 6 months I've had:
- failed AC compressor, replaced
- failed air flow sensor(limp mode), replaced
- cracked both rocker covers (this is what left us broken down with caravan in tow)
- relaxed both lower control arms due to knocking noise, $1600
- failed handbrake switch, replaced
I want to keep it and love it, this thread has restored my faith but...my extended warranty runs out next month and I'm nervous