The boys are on the way out

Hi all

One thing that I picked up was that the Thai people donated so much of their time and resources for free. From journalists interviewing locals we find that many donated food from their farms, provided space for helpers to camp, did cooking, cleaning, washing and so many activities; it was like a small village. They apparently did this for free.

Would it have been like this if the rescue had of occurred in the US or here? In the US would it have been like the famous Floyd Collins rescue where large numbers of entrepreneurs stepped in to make a buck?

In Australia we had a major cave rescue due to a flash flood into the Pannikin Plains system on the Nullarbor Plains back in 1988. There have been some other largish cave rescues in Australia but not at the scale of what we have just seen in Thailand's Tham Luang cave over the last fortnight.

Mike

If people want an idea of it would have been like, have a read of "The Darkness Beckons" by Martyn Farr, probably the definitive book on cave diving...

Father of Dr Richard Harris, Adelaide cave diving expert who played vital role in Thai rescue, has died.


have to make a movie about this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeFriend

Nothing to do with god that the kids got out - just good old practice and forethought.

Clearing a mask is pretty easy with a very small amount of practice. They were stuck in that cave for ages, I am sure they had quite a bit of practice before going in, and the choke points would have been a bit easier for the kids as they didn't have the gear on them, just their breather.

I am in no way being flippant about it, but a lot of them had been through the cave before (albeit it when dry), and with a little training they will be calm about breathing underwater - even doing it without a mask. So the actual tight spaces wouldn't have been the issue, it would have been dealing with the breathing and trying to ensure the kids don't panic.

That is what the practice is for - but the divers having to deal with it all deserve all the praise they get, don't cheapen what they have done by saying god did it for them.

---

I know you’re not trying to be flippant, but have you ever dived in zero viz conditions?

A lack of visibility underwater is incredibly disorienting. Crawling through confined spaces where you can’t see what you’re doing and have no sense of up is very difficult. Your life depends entirely on keeping contact with the guide rope and not getting tangled in it. Lose the rope and you’re dead, it’s as simple as that. Add to that the turbulent water flowing through the cave and this was a real challenge to everyone who made the dive.

Experienced divers panic in these conditions, so what those boys did was very challenging and should in no way be be-littled. Very few people are calm on their first dive. It’s one thing to clear a mask sitting on the bottom of a pool, but it’s entirely different trying to do it in zero viz when you don’t know which way is up.

What these guys did was amazing and I am in awe of what they have achieved . There is no substitute for the hard won skills and experience they have - no magic bloke in the sky and certainly no idiot inventing a mini submarine.

Cheers,
Jon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon3950

I know you’re not trying to be flippant, but have you ever dived in zero viz conditions?

A lack of visibility underwater is incredibly disorienting. Crawling through confined spaces where you can’t see what you’re doing and have no sense of up is very difficult. Your life depends entirely on keeping contact with the guide rope and not getting tangled in it. Lose the rope and you’re dead, it’s as simple as that. Add to that the turbulent water flowing through the cave and this was a real challenge to everyone who made the dive.

Experienced divers panic in these conditions, so what those boys did was very challenging and should in no way be be-littled. Very few people are calm on their first dive. It’s one thing to clear a mask sitting on the bottom of a pool, but it’s entirely different trying to do it in zero viz when you don’t know which way is up.

What these guys did was amazing and I am in awe of what they have achieved . There is no substitute for the hard won skills and experience they have - no magic bloke in the sky and certainly no idiot inventing a mini submarine.

Cheers,
Jon

---

Been in zero viz diving, have crawled through spaces where I have had to remove my tank/bcd - and know all about caving with water flooding a cave.

I agree on losing the guide rope possibly being a death sentence - I say possibly because with torches it isn't that big of a deal, they would have used bright ropes - if you see the cave map it isn't exactly a cavern so it wouldn't have been that hard to find.

And if they didn't connect themselves and the kids to the rope then really that is just mental.

Then you have some idea of what they were up against.

Of course the boys would have been secured to the line, but a torch or bright rope is of no use if you can’t see out of your mask. It would only take one boy getting tangled in the rope to make things interesting. And so on. So many little things that could go wrong had the potential kill people.

Please don’t think I’m having a go at you, it’s just that it’s very easy to downplay what was achieved by all those involved, including the boys. I’ve heard some pretty inane comments from others lately about how easy it should have been, when they have no idea of what was facing the divers.

Cheers,
Jon

Hi

I do have to disagree here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeFriend

Been in zero viz diving, have crawled through spaces where I have had to remove my tank/bcd - and know all about caving with water flooding a cave.

I agree on losing the guide rope possibly being a death sentence - I say possibly because with torches it isn't that big of a deal, they would have used bright ropes - if you see the cave map it isn't exactly a cavern so it wouldn't have been that hard to find.

---

In zero viz even with a torch you cannot see the rope no matter how bright the rope is. The fine silt just reflects everything a cm from your face mask. Lose the rope and you have to go by feel. You won't be able to read a map right in front of your mask. But even with a good memory of a map you will very quickly be disoriented and totally lost unless your actually in a restricted passage and you know you haven't turned around or changed direction.

There is lot off difference between having done a CDAA, IANTD or NSS Cave Diving Course or equivalent and having a PADI cert and crawling through spaces where they have had to remove their tank.

Mike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speleomike

Hi

I do have to disagree here.



In zero viz even with a torch you cannot see the rope no matter how bright the rope is. The fine silt just reflects everything a cm from your face mask. Lose the rope and you have to go by feel. You won't be able to read a map right in front of your mask. But even with a good memory of a map you will very quickly be disoriented and totally lost unless your actually in a restricted passage and you know you haven't turned around or changed direction.

There is lot off difference between having done a CDAA, IANTD or NSS Cave Diving Course or equivalent and having a PADI cert and crawling through spaces where they have had to remove their tank.

Mike

---

Again, there is no reason to not be attached to the rope - so where the vis is low and for some reason both the adult and experienced divers lost the rope it would be easily found.

Provided the kids didn't panic in their full face masks, it is relatively simple, if incredibly time-consuming and logistically speaking intense.

Does it matter - they are out safe and well thanks to the dedication and professionalism of all involved.

And remember one of those died doing the job.

Garry

Hi

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeFriend

Again, there is no reason to not be attached to the rope - so where the vis is low and for some reason both the adult and experienced divers lost the rope it would be easily found.
Provided the kids didn't panic in their full face masks, it is relatively simple, if incredibly time-consuming and logistically speaking intense.

---

Guide lines can also break, through age or fraying in the current. As your intensity increases to find that line, and as your time is consumed, your eating into your air. One third rule - 1/3 in, 1/3, out 1/3 reserve. With a Land Rover when you run out of diesel there is the NRMA. Stick with Land Rovers and don't take up cave diving as a sport.

Best wishes
Mike