Thread: New Defender.

Originally Posted by Tombie

He knows very little, is technically inept much of the time - but comes across authoritative and therefore the viewers take it as correct.

Point out the inaccuracies in his tech videos and he closes down the comments and deletes them immediately.

He also has a strong reputation for pressuring suppliers for “stuff for comment” and well known back in SA for throwing tantrums when suppliers wouldn’t give him free stuff in exchange for a review.

So can i ask what you disagree with in his vid? Interested in your thoughts as im always learning. Cheers Tim

Originally Posted by timax

He knows his stuff though and thinks things through so like all of these guys i listen to their ideas and make up my own mind based on my wants and needs.

I beg to differ. He knows SFA about TPMS and dual battery systems. Just two items, that spring to mind, that he mercilessly bagged because he didn't understand them.

Originally Posted by V8Ian

I beg to differ. He knows SFA about TPMS and dual battery systems. Just two items, that spring to mind, that he mercilessly bagged because he didn't understand them.

Also nothing about LLAMS.

Originally Posted by timax

So can i ask what you disagree with in his vid? Interested in your thoughts as im always learning. Cheers Tim

Here’s a very simple comparison...

TL;DR

On this forum - many are traditionalist and like the older boxy defender, others like the older boxy discoveries.

When the new (3&4) discoveries came out the forum was up in arms... too much tech, curved panels, indy suspension, won’t go offroad, wouldn’t trust them etc etc.

The Defender, through a loop hole kept on going, with just enough updates to keep ahead of emissions laws, a few better convenience items etc. but it could remain in its body style as a commercially classified vehicle - so it did - and was cheaper than retooling. Although it remained THE most expensive model to construct.

Time marched on, NCAP, emissions, swerve tests etc all caught up and the Defender wasn’t going to be able to be salvaged. Only 17k units sold around the world on average.

What to do? End it all? LR purists were up in arms.
But what do you do? A vehicle MUST recover its development cost, and a total remake was the only way it would meet all the new requirements.

So off they went...

LR has always been an innovator. Not necessarily the refined end - Toyota etc come along and mimic the tech with Japanese style and refine it quite often, but are several years behind every time.

So what do they do? Try to keep some heritage in the design, styling cues etc. whilst needing to meet EU regulations, emissions, crash tests, handling etc. and as it all kicks off - EVs and tighter restrictions continue to be mandated.

So a brick can’t be as aerodynamic, won’t do well in crash pulse tests either...

So the look “softens” and LR purists and others are horrified... but the look, like BMW or even Kia is brand recognition - you see it and know it’s a new LR. Unlike a defender of old, with a bar and spotlights coming down a highway can look much like a 70 series until it gets close enough.

So they fit their new generation engines, throw in some useful features that the average outdoors type will like when they live with it every day as well as go out touring. They fit a front end that can hit a pedestrian and hopefully not kill them, they engineer crash pulse to mean the occupant survives hopefully without needing 10 years of Physio. And it becomes a bit rounder to enable side impact protection to be effective.

They test them, a lot, and yet like every new vehicle the first generation have problems. One mob in the USA get a bad one, the techs try to sort it and it gets worse. Then the same shop damage it. But Covid and new production means spares are in short supply due to logistics and supply chain issues.

Yes, it happens. When the 120 Prado came out rear diffs were failing like crazy, 8-10 weeks to source and replace. Same type of issue.

Now the ND is out and arrived, people who liked the old one (nothing wrong with that) start immediately making comparisons forgetting the world has HAD to move on.

Early adopters have some teething issues, as every new model by any maker does. Heck, it took LR nearly 40 years to get *most* of the issues out of the Defender. It took Ford only a few to make D3/4 one of the best in its history.

What has Toyota comparatively done in that time? Same old dinosaur driveline, facelifts and not much else. But it’s proven - certainly not innovative.

Will a ND become a solid vehicle? Absolutely. It will be a magnificent vehicle.

By comparison - I threw nearly the value of my old defender into it to make it suited for overland travel. Yes it was easy to just bolt bits in/on/under/over and that’s what I did. And it did the job like a legend.

Then I got a D4 (also have a 90) and added the very simplest of mods - protection, fuel range and suspension controller. And it goes everywhere without complaint - every time.

It has dozens of control modules, by comparison the Defender had ABS/TC and an ECU and stereo. Neither has ever let me down.

Our company has been so disappointed in the performance of the Toyota’s they used, they are all being removed and sold off. A fleet of Fords is now in play, and LTs for where the 70s were used. The better service and performance of the Rangers is already being seen in the figures for the fleet.

We have another example here: a LR guy with a great D2 V8. Loves it. Has a new Triton. It suits his needs and he’s very impressed. Plenty don’t like the new front - it looks like an ASX with a tray! But it’s still a good solid performer. I like them and we’re considering one for a daily runabout. They now have far more curves, bulging lines, nothing like the 20yr old Tritons with asthmatic engines and rattling panels of old.

ASPW is a marketing machine - he makes his living from Patreon and photography. He needs an audience to make a living. If he doesn’t keep up his charade people will move on to the next Vlogger and he will go broke. So he posts tech videos of his gear - and often gets it very wrong. But will never admit it.

Just to expand on a couple of Tombie's comments - 1 about the new Def and the other about ASPW.

Must recover development costs.
If you look at this statement, this in a nutshell defined the outcome of the new Def. LR is now so heavily invested in aluminium monocoque, independent suspension tech that from their perspective, the new Def HAD to be based on this to be cost effective. Which in turn defined it moving away from being a commercial/farmer/overlander product into a more leisure/fun/"active lifestyle" type thing.

And that essentially is what ASPW is moaning about. He markets himself and the idea of "back-to-basics" overland travel, so of course the new Def isn't going to appeal to him. But then he's not their target customer for it.
And Tombie is spot on with the notion that he's got to waffle on about something to stay (vaguely) relevant and earn money. His last vid is a case in point, it's almost self generating:
Step1. Make "controversial" video.
Step 2. Read comment(s) posted on said video.
Step 3. Be outraged. Make video 2 defending your opinions from video 1.
Step 4. More comments will follow, more subject matter for more videos.. ad infinitum...!!

Personally I think it should have been called Discovery Defender this would better signal their intent with the new vehicle

Such a name would have also cut out a lot of the poor comment as it is not a commercial vehicle which the Defender was. Does not take Einstein to see this. No amount of marketing spin can change the reality.

Word in industry here (rumours not inside knowledge) that the current Discovery is for the chop as sales have been poor. The new customer base that were to come over to the brand has not taken to it and the old customer base has not moved across. If this is true the Defender needs to succeed even more

Originally Posted by Tombie

Here’s a very simple comparison...

TL;DR

On this forum - many are traditionalist and like the older boxy defender, others like the older boxy discoveries.

When the new (3&4) discoveries came out the forum was up in arms... too much tech, curved panels, indy suspension, won’t go offroad, wouldn’t trust them etc etc.

The Defender, through a loop hole kept on going, with just enough updates to keep ahead of emissions laws, a few better convenience items etc. but it could remain in its body style as a commercially classified vehicle - so it did - and was cheaper than retooling. Although it remained THE most expensive model to construct.

Time marched on, NCAP, emissions, swerve tests etc all caught up and the Defender wasn’t going to be able to be salvaged. Only 17k units sold around the world on average.

What to do? End it all? LR purists were up in arms.
But what do you do? A vehicle MUST recover its development cost, and a total remake was the only way it would meet all the new requirements.

So off they went...

LR has always been an innovator. Not necessarily the refined end - Toyota etc come along and mimic the tech with Japanese style and refine it quite often, but are several years behind every time.

So what do they do? Try to keep some heritage in the design, styling cues etc. whilst needing to meet EU regulations, emissions, crash tests, handling etc. and as it all kicks off - EVs and tighter restrictions continue to be mandated.

So a brick can’t be as aerodynamic, won’t do well in crash pulse tests either...

So the look “softens” and LR purists and others are horrified... but the look, like BMW or even Kia is brand recognition - you see it and know it’s a new LR. Unlike a defender of old, with a bar and spotlights coming down a highway can look much like a 70 series until it gets close enough.

So they fit their new generation engines, throw in some useful features that the average outdoors type will like when they live with it every day as well as go out touring. They fit a front end that can hit a pedestrian and hopefully not kill them, they engineer crash pulse to mean the occupant survives hopefully without needing 10 years of Physio. And it becomes a bit rounder to enable side impact protection to be effective.

They test them, a lot, and yet like every new vehicle the first generation have problems. One mob in the USA get a bad one, the techs try to sort it and it gets worse. Then the same shop damage it. But Covid and new production means spares are in short supply due to logistics and supply chain issues.

Yes, it happens. When the 120 Prado came out rear diffs were failing like crazy, 8-10 weeks to source and replace. Same type of issue.

Now the ND is out and arrived, people who liked the old one (nothing wrong with that) start immediately making comparisons forgetting the world has HAD to move on.

Early adopters have some teething issues, as every new model by any maker does. Heck, it took LR nearly 40 years to get *most* of the issues out of the Defender. It took Ford only a few to make D3/4 one of the best in its history.

What has Toyota comparatively done in that time? Same old dinosaur driveline, facelifts and not much else. But it’s proven - certainly not innovative.

Will a ND become a solid vehicle? Absolutely. It will be a magnificent vehicle.

By comparison - I threw nearly the value of my old defender into it to make it suited for overland travel. Yes it was easy to just bolt bits in/on/under/over and that’s what I did. And it did the job like a legend.

Then I got a D4 (also have a 90) and added the very simplest of mods - protection, fuel range and suspension controller. And it goes everywhere without complaint - every time.

It has dozens of control modules, by comparison the Defender had ABS/TC and an ECU and stereo. Neither has ever let me down.

Our company has been so disappointed in the performance of the Toyota’s they used, they are all being removed and sold off. A fleet of Fords is now in play, and LTs for where the 70s were used. The better service and performance of the Rangers is already being seen in the figures for the fleet.

We have another example here: a LR guy with a great D2 V8. Loves it. Has a new Triton. It suits his needs and he’s very impressed. Plenty don’t like the new front - it looks like an ASX with a tray! But it’s still a good solid performer. I like them and we’re considering one for a daily runabout. They now have far more curves, bulging lines, nothing like the 20yr old Tritons with asthmatic engines and rattling panels of old.

ASPW is a marketing machine - he makes his living from Patreon and photography. He needs an audience to make a living. If he doesn’t keep up his charade people will move on to the next Vlogger and he will go broke. So he posts tech videos of his gear - and often gets it very wrong. But will never admit it.

So you don't really disagree with anything he says in this video. What "i "get from it is he thinks its a brilliant car but no longer a Defender that you can customise to be the car you want. No ARB gear being made for it for example and so is now moved into the SUV family car market more like a D4. Landrover no longer have a basic , capable off roader like they used to. I now know 2 people with the new Defender and both are classic soccer mums who had D4's. They always loved my 110 but it would have been way too basic for them and they hate the new Discovery so i would have done the same. No way would this replace my 110 but it would possibly my D4 if they can iron out the problems although with how many years and how many Km testing and they are still have silly little issues that could leave you stranded im sticking with what i have for a while yet.

Originally Posted by timax

So you don't really disagree with anything he says in this video. What "i "get from it is he thinks its a brilliant car but no longer a Defender that you can customise to be the car you want. No ARB gear being made for it for example and so is now moved into the SUV family car market more like a D4. Landrover no longer have a basic , capable off roader like they used to. I now know 2 people with the new Defender and both are classic soccer mums who had D4's. They always loved my 110 but it would have been way too basic for them and they hate the new Discovery so i would have done the same. No way would this replace my 110 but it would possibly my D4 if they can iron out the problems although with how many years and how many Km testing and they are still have silly little issues that could leave you stranded im sticking with what i have for a while yet.

That's fair enough!