D3 offroad

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Stripped crownwheel - take half axles out and drive as 2wd.
Axle tube snaps - welding job, nearest town or station
Lose all drive - find what broke and send second vehicle for parts.

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But your last two points still require a vehicle/service agent/ tow truck to realise, so I don't see the difference from (your stated point) of the D3 requirement of a dealer - other than you'll be waiting longer. you still have to get the vehicle back to civilisation!!

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There is no inherent weakness with the use of electronics, but for use in areas remote from dealers, it should incorporate onboard diagnostics. There is no technical reason why this could not be available today on any new car, but don't hold your breath.

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It's true that a proprietry system is required to plumb the depths of software programming available on the D3. But my points are that:

1. Unlike the D2/P38 (which is what I think most non-D3 owners are basing their opinion on), most codes/failures can be cleared by the driver, if you know how.

2, The interface to the software system is available to anyone with a CAMBUS interfacing plug. There are (or will be soon) third-party vendors that will supply said software. You add the laptop.

So ultimately, both of your arguments are essentially that the LR service network (country-wide) is crap. But that says nothing about the ability/reliablity of the vehicle, which is what the point is. I haven't had to experience the service provided by LR Assist as yet (and I could draw rather narrow and simplistic conclusions from that, but I won't), so maybe that premise has some merit, but you _cannot_ say, under any stretch of logic, that the D3 is either less able, or less reliable than any other Rover. They will _all_ suffer from poor dealer representation.

John and Dm_TD5, that's not strictly true. You are still thinking of the D3 in terms of any other car.

The D3 has 'smart' electronics. When one part fails, the system re-assess and ensure thjat the car can still function. Unlike some other cars, the D3 would probably not stop completely, but enter 'limp home mode' . After travelling for a while with no problems, it will then 'hand back' some control to the driver.

I know because some 45000km ago when the 'steering angle sensor' failed (note I am the only person I know that this has happened to. I frequent a UK D3 site and no-one there has had the same failure so it's not generic)on mine this happened to me. The car dropped to access height and shut off all TR systems. However, it still had both diff locks, still had 4WD and had enough belly armour to keep the limestone caprock at bay. After about an hour (I think) the car gave me back suspension height control.

It will retain logs of failures, but will attempt to reset itself in order to continue operation.

I believe I could drive a long way at 'limp home'.

I have a lot of confidence in this car and would take it anywhere.

It would be nice to have more LR dealers around though!

It would also be very nice to have onboard diagnostic. You can actually access this for the Satnav, so why not the vehicle. I suspect that it is there, it's just that I don't know the PIN to access it!

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Originally Posted by Jamo

John and Dm_TD5, that's not strictly true. You are still thinking of the D3 in terms of any other car.

The D3 has 'smart' electronics. When one part fails, the system re-assess and ensure thjat the car can still function. Unlike some other cars, the D3 would probably not stop completely, but enter 'limp home mode' . After travelling for a while with no problems, it will then 'hand back' some control to the driver.

I know because some 45000km ago when the 'steering angle sensor' failed (note I am the only person I know that this has happened to. I frequent a UK D3 site and no-one there has had the same failure so it's not generic)on mine this happened to me. The car dropped to access height and shut off all TR systems. However, it still had both diff locks, still had 4WD and had enough belly armour to keep the limestone caprock at bay. After about an hour (I think) the car gave me back suspension height control.

It will retain logs of failures, but will attempt to reset itself in order to continue operation.

I believe I could drive a long way at 'limp home'.

I have a lot of confidence in this car and would take it anywhere.

It would be nice to have more LR dealers around though!

It would also be very nice to have onboard diagnostic. You can actually access this for the Satnav, so why not the vehicle. I suspect that it is there, it's just that I don't know the PIN to access it!

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Thats it, i get tired of hearing technophobes bag the D3 without actually knowing much about how they work. I dont own one nor have i driven one, but i have spent quite a bit of time off road with both D3's and a RRS and know how the computer system works. Whilst i appreciate you all recognise the D3 is a top vehicle i disagree with the fact that it would be risky so to say taking it to far away from the dealership. This is some misguided information placed into peoples minds by a few neanderthals who write for a 4wd magazine. The D3 that failed on the 4wd Monthly test had been off road with other Journos, and the 4wd Monthly crew had been ploughing it through water deeper than the wading depth recommended by LR, and water got into places it shouldnt get, that happened with Yabbies classic rangie when we drowned it, it also stopped and had to be towed out, far less electronic than a D3. With the majority of faults the D3 can be turned off rebooted and the faults clear, for the minority of faults they vehicle does what Jamo said, only the most extreme problem will leave you stranded. Matt

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

But your last two points still require a vehicle/service agent/ tow truck to realise, so I don't see the difference from (your stated point) of the D3 requirement of a dealer - other than you'll be waiting longer. you still have to get the vehicle back to civilisation!!


It's true that a proprietry system is required to plumb the depths of software programming available on the D3. But my points are that:

1. Unlike the D2/P38 (which is what I think most non-D3 owners are basing their opinion on), most codes/failures can be cleared by the driver, if you know how.

2, The interface to the software system is available to anyone with a CAMBUS interfacing plug. There are (or will be soon) third-party vendors that will supply said software. You add the laptop.

So ultimately, both of your arguments are essentially that the LR service network (country-wide) is crap. But that says nothing about the ability/reliablity of the vehicle, which is what the point is. I haven't had to experience the service provided by LR Assist as yet (and I could draw rather narrow and simplistic conclusions from that, but I won't), so maybe that premise has some merit, but you _cannot_ say, under any stretch of logic, that the D3 is either less able, or less reliable than any other Rover. They will _all_ suffer from poor dealer representation.

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My last two points do not require the vehicle to be at a dealer - merely to be able to identify the problem and carry out roadside repairs, perhaps carrying parts to a workshop, not necessarily a dealer, and being able to identify the parts needed and get them sent.

My point is not the problems with the dealer network (and I agree completely with your comment on that) but the fact that the D3/D2/P38A/TD5 Defender all need the dealer network to a greater extent than both earlier Landrovers and their competitors (and because the competitors have a better dealer network, as they follow the same path as Landrover they will be less affected)

And I am definitely not saying anything about the ability/reliability of the D3- I believe it is almost certainly the most able offroad vehicle on the Australian market, probably even compared to a standard Defender, and I don't know about its reliability. The problem is not ability/reliability, but suitability for use in remote areas.

John

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

My last two points do not require the vehicle to be at a dealer - merely to be able to identify the problem and carry out roadside repairs, perhaps carrying parts to a workshop, not necessarily a dealer, and being able to identify the parts needed and get them sent.

My point is not the problems with the dealer network (and I agree completely with your comment on that) but the fact that the D3/D2/P38A/TD5 Defender all need the dealer network to a greater extent than both earlier Landrovers and their competitors (and because the competitors have a better dealer network, as they follow the same path as Landrover they will be less affected)

And I am definitely not saying anything about the ability/reliability of the D3- I believe it is almost certainly the most able offroad vehicle on the Australian market, probably even compared to a standard Defender, and I don't know about its reliability. The problem is not ability/reliability, but suitability for use in remote areas.

John

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I'm still following John on this. I don't think either of us are disputing any reliability issues specific to the D3. The key factor is that if you use a 4WD - of any marque - off road things are more likely to break down. Jamo's point about system intelligence is very valid and like I have stated I believe the D3 is a forerunner in this area. The issue is that at present any system relying on so much technology without the support structure in place is not workable in the long term. John mentioned this before that there should be more in car diagnostics, so you don't need to go somewhere to find out the fault or reset it (or wait until it resets). Unfortunately I can't see the marketing or accounts departments of LR (or any other vehicle) saying "what the heck, let's make the vehicle able to tell the driver what's wrong" in the near future. I do think that with the move to more intelligent control systems that this will happen. Then think where LR will be.

This is a bit off the topic but here's 2 articles on how Jaguar (and Land Rover) is developing systems, simulating the vehicle systems and encoding the ECU's etc:
Jaguar ECU Software
http://www.mathworks.com/company/new...06/jaguar.html

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And I am definitely not saying anything about the ability/reliability of the D3- I believe it is almost certainly the most able offroad vehicle on the Australian market, probably even compared to a standard Defender, and I don't know about its reliability. The problem is not ability/reliability, but suitability for use in remote areas.

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Fair enough,but that's not what I understood this thread to be about. It was firstly, the _ability_ of the D3 that was being questioned (something about South Sydney not being off-road country), _then_ its reliability, and now you're telling me that it's the lack of servicing in remote areas that you question.

Ok, I'll concede the last point, but only if you realise that based on _current_ experiences from people who own one, the need for _any_ intervention by a workshop/dealer is (so far) a long way behind the experiences of people with Td5s or P38s. Or in my case, even D1s !!

Cheers,

Gordon

You can buy testbook software for the p38a, I am sure it will become available for the D3 eventually, it wont be cheap but looking at how much some people spend on spare parts for a long outback trip it balances out. Matt

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

I am definitely not saying anything about the ability/reliability of the D3- I believe it is almost certainly the most able offroad vehicle on the Australian market, probably even compared to a standard Defender, and I don't know about its reliability. The problem is not ability/reliability, but suitability for use in remote areas.

John

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That’s double dutch, either it’s good off road or it’s not, you can’t be half pregnant.

These vehicles have proven themselves all over the world and it seems the only ones having problems with them here are people who don’t even own them.

If anyone has actually had a problem with a D3 post the info here, as for the rest of you with your ill-informed opinions, back them up with facts or stop running down the BEST 4x4 on and off the road to day.

All I can see is a lot of jealous people who are just trying to stick it up others because they have one of these great machines.

I have no problems with people voicing their opinions but a number of these posts are nothing more than rumour mongering.

The very electronics that you rumour monger's are ranting about is the same electronics that is most likely going to protect these vehicles from serious damage that your own vehicles will only let you know about, once the damage is done.

As I posted on the other thread, either get a life or get a Toyota, because that’s what you sound like, a pack of yota owners trying to justify your own vehicle’s short comings by running down the D3s.

Excellent!:D

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Originally Posted by drivesafe

That’s double dutch, either it’s good off road or it’s not, you can’t be half pregnant.

These vehicles have proven themselves all over the world and it seems the only ones having problems with them here are people who don’t even own them.

If anyone has actually had a problem with a D3 post the info here, as for the rest of you with your ill-informed opinions, back them up with facts or stop running down the BEST 4x4 on and off the road to day.

All I can see is a lot of jealous people who are just trying to stick it up others because they have one of these great machines.

I have no problems with people voicing their opinions but a number of these posts are nothing more than rumour mongering.

The very electronics that you rumour monger's are ranting about is the same electronics that is most likely going to protect these vehicles from serious damage that your own vehicles will only let you know about, once the damage is done.

As I posted on the other site, either get a life or get a Toyota, because that’s what you sound like, a pack of yota owners trying to justify your own vehicle’s short comings by running down the D3s.

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Im as jealous as hell that i dont have one but im sticking up for the D3 here, i agree with Drivesafe, some of this is no more than an overlander debate about whats better that what.

I appreciate people have thier opinion but people are questioning the D3's remote area touring ability unfairly, its no more or less able to travel to remote areas than a D1 or a D2, sure some failures might be mechanical as opposed to electrical but either is going to ruin your day and prove to be a pain in the butt. Matt