Thread: Unleaded fuel to be phased out in NSW

Originally Posted by JDNSW

Aromatic is a term used to describe hydrocarbon (and derivative) molecules containing "benzine rings".
<snip>
John

Thanks John.
Re-reading my emails, it is additional aromatics used in the blend, not the ethanol that has changed in the US fuel.
This was only touched on and not gone into any great depth as we were discussing fuel dilution issues with diesels and the E10 came up as an example of some oil companies not keeping on top of changing requirements that they were creating.

I misinterpreted your query on feedstocks, not realising you meant oilfields, not ethanol source.
I really had no idea that the fuels varied so much in their make-up worldwide.

Originally Posted by rick130

Thanks John.
Re-reading my emails, it is additional aromatics used in the blend, not the ethanol that has changed in the US fuel.
This was only touched on and not gone into any great depth as we were discussing fuel dilution issues with diesels and the E10 came up as an example of some oil companies not keeping on top of changing requirements that they were creating.

I misinterpreted your query on feedstocks, not realising you meant oilfields, not ethanol source.
I really had no idea that the fuels varied so much in their make-up worldwide.

No problem. You have to look at the big picture as well as the history of the industry to understand this sort of thing. Some people have the idea that a fuel, let's take standard unleaded for example, is a product with a specific composition. Well, it isn't. It is specified by a set of parameters such as viscosity, flash point, boiling point, energy content, octane rating, and even some of these are either an allowable range or a limiting value. The refiner will produce something that matches those specifications at minimum cost, and this will be a matter of balancing the various crudes he can get, what they cost, what processing is necessary, and so on.

Originally petrol was simply what was left as too volatile for kerosine - originally it was dumped or flared. As it became more in demand, as the motor age began, the fraction was widened. Until the mid 1920s, motor manufacturers adapted to what was available - for example Ford dropped their compression ratio in about 1916 as the fuel quality dropped. Following WW1 inspired research into detonation, it became possible to specify and control octane rating, and it became cheap to increase it with tetra ethyl lead and related compounds. As a result the octane rating of motor spirit increased form perhaps 55 to 75 by 1939 and to 98 by the time lead was dropped from motor spirit. And because motor manufacturers became more and more fussy about the fuel, the specification gradually got tighter in respects other than octane as well.

Alcohol was originally an alternative fuel, but prohibition in the US prevented its use there, and it never was used to any extent elsewhere. And very cheap oil, from about the mid twenties made it uneconomical anyway. As a result, by about 1930, manufacturers stopped even thinking about the possibility of it being used.

John

E 10 and E85 fuels have been available in Nowra for a very long time now
( before it was trendy to use it)
My 3.5 litre V8 101 Landy with twin CD strombergs has been the my test vehicle.
Don'T try E85 on a standard carby motor as it is a waste of time.
I runs very poorly due to the jets in the carby not being big enough ( too lean)( you will be lucky to drive it out of the servo)
E10 is OK to use ,but I notice that I can get a very small flat spot under some engine load conditions and the overall feel of the motor is not as sweet as it could be.
On Dino every thing is just a little bit better.
The 3.5 has no problems with the fuel its self as the heads are alloy and the the valves and seats are extra hard.
The fuel pump is electric and of a type with will handle the ethanol.
The carby diaphragms showed no signs of damage.
I think you will find the modern Dino petrol of today without tectraythool
and full of benzyene to replace it will knock around the old SU clacker fuel pumps of series one any how.
EFI cars appear to be a different story.
Early anolog systems E10 and Dino.......shouldn't matter....may be slightly more fuel usage.
EFI self adjusting digital systems ........due to the slightly better knock properties of E10 and cleaner burn slightly better fuel burn can be expected.
There are a few late model falcons running around here with E85 piggy back systems fitted and there appears to be little conversion of the fuel components themselves( fuel pipes and pressure regs etc)
The main change is in computer management.
There are now a few cars on the market that handle E85 ex factory as well as Dino as the computer is set up for it.
I would not use the stuff on two stokes as these engines are touchy the best of times about how they drink and lube them selves.
Long term storage in boats is no go too as the moisture in a boats environment and seasonal storage will cause water in fuel problems.
I give it the thumbs up so long as it is used knowing the fuels good and bad points.
I find it interesting when the LIbs were pushing the E10 the Labour side of things started a untrue campaign in the papers and TV about cars breaking down with E10 all based on lies.
Now who's pushing E10 ?

Be interesting, I may be in NSW, but fuel supply is from Qld, given the border is less than 100kms away. Wonder if the Qld refinery will have to make a NSW blend? And in this neck of the woods, there are many old, old cars, which may not like E85... This is the land of the real Kombi, old Subarus, Peugeots (3 '60s daily driver Mustangs in a village of 2,000) and much other 70s gear...

Q

Originally Posted by Quiggers

Be interesting, I may be in NSW, but fuel supply is from Qld, given the border is less than 100kms away. Wonder if the Qld refinery will have to make a NSW blend? And in this neck of the woods, there are many old, old cars, which may not like E85... This is the land of the real Kombi, old Subarus, Peugeots (3 '60s daily driver Mustangs in a village of 2,000) and much other 70s gear...

Q

The plan only envisages E10, at least for the foreseeable future, and as pointed out above, at this level of concentration you can expect to have no problem with any vehicles (E85 is another matter).

In any case, many of the 1970s vehicles you mention need the higher octane fuel anyway, which, at least for the moment, will remain 100% hydrocarbon.

John

I just wonder if we can believe what the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries saying HERE about which cars can use the E10 fuel.
They list all the Land Rovers from 1986 on but the factory, the people that designed it say no in the 1988 manual.
Who to believe the pen pushers or the factory
If a vehicle is damaged because the owner follows the FCAI advice are these Dood Gooders going to pay for the repairs?
May be a case for a lawers bonanza here
They have opened a can of worms and the benefit to the enviroment is not there to justify cost per litre and other factors

I thought the rangie v8 was low compression and quantity rather than quality because it was designed to work in all world markets. I'm sure e10 won't be a problem.

It annoys me because you use more of it...but still.

Originally Posted by Chucaro

Yes is a drop in fuel economy of about 3% to 8%

THIS page from the Australian Institute of Petroleum mention
Economics: Poor – Ethanol costs approx 60cpl to produce, petrol 35cpl
Energy content less, Ethanol blends of 10% produce 3% less power

Hi Chucaro,
Thanks for the reference, however it looks like it is an October 2002 doc. I wonder what the AIP has said more recently.

Best Wishes,
Peter