Thread: Police shoot 15yo boy in Melbourne

Originally Posted by DeeJay

Not off topic really but was'nt the 45 Colt devised after the Zulu wars as the warriors kept coming after being shot & the armies decided a caliber had to be able to knock an apponent/enemy off thier feet to be effective?

Philippines, the Yanks developed the 45 over the 38 to stop the Highlanders. After kicking the Spanish out.
Plenty of stories of empting a mag of 38s into a tanked up on the local jungle juice highlander and didn’t stop him. Its also the first time and only time the US government has permitted the use of dum dums for there Springfield’s

Its also why the diggers in WW2 went for the Thompson and not the sterling, hence the aussie Owen, ( in the pacific)

Any way it a bit of topic, I bullet or 20, the kids dead, from what I have read that seems the way the Kid wanted it, as shocking as it seems.
Counseling only works as posted before if some one wants it to work, I suspect that this kid wasn’t interested. At the end of the day life isn’t always a bed or roses; no one is responsible for your actions and trying to justify or excuse this kids actions ( as tragic as they are) is just an attempt to lay blame on some one else.
And some one should be looking after the cops. 4 cops i would not be surprised if there would isint at least 1 divorce coming up after this.

Originally Posted by gogg0

possibly true but sometimes people dont seek because they dont know its there and available.
I have met many people that think counsling is only for the sick and mental. Not true!

would it also be the case that people that get put into drug and alcohol programs never get better? as they didn't seek it in the first place.

Some people dont know they were in need of help until they get talking to someone.....and counsling doesn't have to be done by a professional can be done by a freind parent and other

I was an operational VicPol Sgt. VicPol with 34 years service in the northern and western suburbs of Melbourne. I stand by my experience that the only people that gain from counselling are those that seek it. Many people attend anger management and drug counselling as a part of a court order,

and most re-offend.

The 45 ACP resulted from the Moro wars the US fought in the Phillipines at the turn of the 20th century.

most is not all, i don't believe because most re-offend you should stop suggesting others go.

I'm not arguing your experience My original intent was to sort of explain where NM was coming from to McRover......

not in all cases would counsilling, support and guidance help but how are we to know it wouldn't of helped if he never had it! maybe just maybe it might have......

I would also like to say that i'm by know means arguing with what the cops done I back there actions 110%

but i'm not also blind to see that people do get let down by the system also.......it may not be in this case who knows but to say that people only use that as an excuse to push the blame IMHO is wrong as there are people out there that have been let down.

OK, this is a one post deal.

I have read thru this thread with varying feelings of anger/pity and pride.
I am an operational copper, 23years in. I have been involved in a Police involved shooting where the offender died as a result of his actions.

(please note those words "as a result of his actions", not mine, or my colleagues but his..)

I will not be going into details but as covered in lots of parts of this thread, a dose or realism is required in judging this matter.

1. no police officer will state that he/she is shooting to kill, if they do and are involved in a shooting incident it leaves a murder charge hanging...we shoot to incapacitate, to do this in SA it is a one shot and reassess situation, but
if not down immediately a second shot is usually off within a second....that is a very short time frame. We though have a .357 magnum round with 'expanding head' (the term dumdum springs to mind) this is a much more powerful round than those used in Vic or in most other states.

2. It is entirely fanciful to think that someone trained to use a firearm (revolver/pistol) and retrained and qualified (ONE DAY A YEAR) is going to
shoot any small target, an arm or a leg will not stop the threat from moving or continuing. the shot is and always will be "centre mass"

3. There was mention of seeing Police that shoot "dead eye dick" stuff at shooting competitions.... they are people who are engaged in a sport, they train and practice like other sports people. Whilst engaged in their sport they do not have the adrenilin drop that someone armed and threatening you, your colleagues or the public will give you.

This "drop" causes a number of effects...
"tunnel vision" a loss of perifial (spelling?) vision as your complete concentration is now on the offender

"tunnel hearing" your concentration is so much on the offender you can lose all recognition of anything not directly relate to the issue.

shaking....christ the shaking, uncontrollable, no matter how calm you think you are after the incident. Its the adrenilin burning off

racing thoughts, not just "what will he do?"
but also interspersed with, "what will that bloke standing 20' to the left do? is he gonna try and be a hero and wil I be able to cut him off if he tries?,
what else can I use?, trust me the option for non lethal is VERY VERY PREFFERED by all cops.
If I get this wrong will I end up in prison?,
will I lose my job?,
did I kiss my wife and my kids, 9,5 and 3 when I left this morning? will I be able to kiss them again?!

(It is truely amazing what you can fit in to even a short time span.)

The option to shoot is indeed the very very last option. The immediate effect of firing a round in those circumstances is that you only hear and see what you and the offender are doing. You may not even realise that two others were firing until after youve assessed the threat is gone and completed those
actions....

trying to assess the injuries to the offender, vain attempts to save them and the realisation you have just done the one thing you have prayed for years you wouldnt ever have to do...


The merry go round that follows,
*not allowed to talk to anyone else involved
*interviews where you are interviewed like an offender (it has to be done that way to show impartiallity etc)
*compulsory counselling
*people who were great mates earlier now distancing themselves because they dont know what to say
*people who want to joke about it - (no, it will never be funny)
*knowing that tomorrow you may end up in a situation like that again, Can you cope?, will you react differently or freeze because of this experience?
*trying not to, but ending up reading anything said or written about the matter...and taking stuff you know is complete crap and not even close, to heart, knowing its not helping but continuing that anyway.
*realising that for the 10 or so years since the incident I havent slept for 8 hours unless Ive had a big night on the grog. (and having to watch carefully that the temptation to "grog over" the memories doesnt get hold of you- on the up side the money ive saved on not being excessive with grog over the years helps my l/r habit!)
*waiting almost 12 months for a coronial inquest to be held, then spending two days on the stand (this was a straight forward suicide by police shooting) being accused of "wanting to kill someone" or being trigger happy,
and all the other options raised by the QC that has been engaged by the family to try and "get justice" for their son. These included "why not shoot at he arm or leg or hand?", "why no warning shot?, "why not use spray?" (there was a 12 knot wind from behind him towards Police, spray at him wouldve got us and not touhed him) Why follow a an armed with a 2' machette, let him go ahead and try to negotiate with him? (he was headed to a hotel with about 120 patrons in it, alongside a series of shops all busy with shoppers and surrounded by a residential area...if we didnt follow and he chopped someone up, what would the headline be then?)

the day after, the newspaper had a headline similar to "POLICE GUN DOWN MAN IN CARPARK". They even found a bloke who said that we had shot him as he tried to surrender, later when found and interviewed in Darwin this bloke admitted he had seen nothing but wanted to be in the paper so made it up! But did that or the coroners finding that we were justified get equal billing?, no page 17 and about 20 lines long....

Enough of that anyway, I put these points forward...
I have been an op safety trainer (including range officer duties) for 15 or so years. I have been (as I said) a cop for 20+ years. I have served in remote areas and one man stations in the outback for a total of almost 10 of those years. I served in the first state contingent to east timor in 2000.

and yet I still couldnt have stopped that man if it happened today.

The Police involved in this incident will truely suffer for their involvement, and it wont be what anyone else says or does, it will be years or reliving it and analysing it.

A very large percentage of Police involved in fatal shootings never return to the road, and most leave the job.


I do feel for the offenders family here, as said before, theyve lost a son, a brother.....but it is a path he himself chose, and I believe it was suicide by Police, he didnt hang himself or take pills to die, he chose to get someone else to do t for him. Instead or devastating just his family and friends now he has ripped a hole through the lives of four police officers, their families, their colleagues as well.


Lastly, maybe a quick look at the Police Memorial website may be a stark reminder to everyone here that already too many have not "completed duty" but have become those "eternally watching over us"

Ive had my say, it was a rant and Im sorry, I wont be rereading it so if it makes no sense, sorry (oh and tough!) I also wont enter into debate but as has been said, no one won here today, but those who needed and wanted most to go home will. And their Christmas day will be bitter sweet, I hope more sweet than bitter...

Next time you get a ticket or chipped for doing something wrong, think about it, that same copper may need to go from where you are and put him/herself into a situation like this.... its a silly world when for a "job" you run towards people armed and wanting to hurt you, instead of away from them.. and this is in OUR streets people, its not a war zone....well not officially.


cheers, be safe
digger

Thank you Digger for your post.

It is the most sensible and erudite report of what actually happens out there I have ever read.

Take care,

Cheers Charlie

I recon Diggers post sums it up perfectly.

Digger....Thanks

Lastly, maybe a quick look at the Police Memorial website may be a stark reminder to everyone here that already too many have not "completed duty" but have become those "eternally watching over us"

National Police Memorial - Honour Roll

There is a really good reason why police are instructed to shoot people who are armed.

I received this email today which I have have made a copy of it, converted to PDF and put up on my server. For those of you interested, It can be downloaded from here as it is a little bit graphic and not entirely suitable for posting here.

http://www.ibrutus.net/temp/email1.pdf

Not for the squeamish - but it does get its message across.

Thanks for posting dJames I think this may make a few people wake up