Thread: 18" Tyres V 19" Tyres

Hi Disco4SE
Off road with tyres aired down, you want as much height in the sidewall as possible to enable the tyre to flex over rocks, tree roots etc. Off road, you should be looking for the smallest dia rim and largest dia tyre that is possible / practical.
On road handling you should be looking for the opposite. But how well do you expect a 2-1/2 ton brick with high centre of gravity to handle anyway?!
Ian

Thanks Owl.......does make sense. Seeing as though my off roading is minimal compared to my on road and towing, I am probably better off saving my money on the 18" rims. However, if Gordon can get hold of the GMAX 18" rims, I would still do it.

Hi Disco4SE,
The closer you stick to 16 inch rims the better, load carrying capacity, off road ability, availability, cost, all reasons to stick to an 18 rather than go for a 19 inch rim. I was driving back from Canberra to Perth, did a tyre, an 18 inch 255 55 18, could I get one on the way back to Perth, I was stopping at all the major cities and towns, all of them said that they could have one for me tomorrow, a couple were a week due to their location. I ended up sticking another 18 inch 255 60 I think, it was to get me home just in case. Had I had to use this the traction control would have been continually activating, and the gearbox program would change. 19 inch tyres would be even more scarce. One of the recent vehicle tests dropped the Disco 4 from1st place because of the impracticalities of 19 inch tyres. Food for thought............

Disco4SE,
I remember this discussion a few years ago
About the time the D3 was released....

I can remmeber when the SE was released & it came standard with 18" rims/tyres (what was LR thinking (back then), how dare they was the outcry) & people questioned/complained that getting tyres was a pain in the preverbial.

Everyone wanted 16's or 17's as this was the "Best" tyre to get.

Nowadays everyone wants 18's as there is a much bigger option than there was 5 yrs ago.

Give it time as in Europe/USA there are again many more options than what we have at present.

As all manufaturers go up in size, the tyre manufacturers will have to keep importing tyres to suit. Supply & demand i think its called.
Example: The Continentals (ATR) i ordered as it was on the website for 19's, but they are not available as yet in Australia! Available as 18's.
Again more & more tyres are becoming availble in Australia.

Good luck.

I was one of the different ones, My D4 come with 18's & went for the 19's.

Cheers

massive debate about 17's, 18's & 19's here.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-ch...4-v-lc200.html

imo there is very little between 18 & 19 particularily if you are trying to get one at short notice. in desperation 18 may be slightly easier to get cause ford territory's have a similiar tyre size.

But as sneigy said the availability will improve as the size becomes more popular. A number of manufacturers are starting to fit 18 - 20 inch rims now.

16-17 is one thing. At 17" there's still quite a bit of space to the rim, although personally I'd rather a 16" rim.

18-19 is quite another. You're really getting low on rim protection by 19", and 18s can't be aired down quite like 17s come to that. Every inch does make a difference when you're out there, heavily loaded in difficult terrain, not so much on a drive day or training course when it's all easy, smooth pre-set obstacles.

Take a 19" tyre out on a High Country trip, air it down to 20psi and watch what happens to your rims as you get onto the hills and cross-axled with the weight on the tyre going from maybe 750kg to 1600kg. See that rim? See the ground? They are virtually one. So, you don't air down as far, and suffer the consequences. However, the D3/D4 is so good it'll still get placed aired up so it looks like there's no disadvantage, but there certainly is. The car's capability is limited, and it's working harder than it would on softer tyres, more wheelspin, more bouncing, more track damage.

You're also more likely to scratch and damage 19s offroad than say 18s as the rim extends that much further into rocks and ruts. Sometimes a recovery is very marginal. Think an off-camber, steep uphill track, rain starting, loose stones, dusk approaching and you need to get the car up the hill. That's when you need every last tiny bit of traction you can muster. I've been there with the six-hour all-night recoveries.

Sand is a different matter as you don't get the weight shift onto single wheels you do in other terrains, and sand doesn't tend to damage rims. The contact patch is the same regardless of profile so flotation is not affected.

Dirt roads are the same deal. When you hit a rock with your tyre you don't want your rim damaged, and the less rubber there is to protect it the greater the chance of damage. Even LR's strong alloy rims can be damaged in this way. Of course you could just avoid rocks but we all make mistakes and if you do enough dirt-road miles it will happen, not if. Perdika track on 19" rims not aired down, anyone? Bad enough on 235/85/16s at 18psi.

I am not convinced there will be a sudden rush of 19" offroad tyres as people in the industry tell me that 20" is likely to be the focus size not 19, as 20s cover a wider range of vehicle and clearly anything running 19 can also run 20. There are quite a number of vehicles with 18" rims but much fewer with standard 19s, but for 20s the number jumps again. However, I do expect some more 19s on to the market even though Goodyear took the 255/55/19 MTR off with the new range. Also, right now there are no tools I've seen to break a 19" bead. There are ways to do it, I've broken a 20" but I couldn't get the damn thing back on the tyre for love nor money, very stiff bead and hard to get into the dropwell. Another story.

Of course, all this it depends what you use your vehicle for. Onroad, a bit of light offroading every now and then on well-made dirt roads and again and 19s will be fine. But that doesn't prove they are just as good as 17s any more than trundling round a racetrack on mud tyres means they're just as good as race tyres just because you completed one lap without killing the tyres through overheating.

The harder and further you go offroad, with a heavier load and the more often, the better the low-profiles become. I'm most willing to be convinced otherwise but so far I don't see any evidence to change my view.

Originally Posted by rmp

The harder and further you go offroad, with a heavier load and the more often, the better the low-profiles become.

Mmmm, methinks a typo in the above ..........

Originally Posted by rmp

I'm most willing to be convinced otherwise but so far I don't see any evidence to change my view.

Knowing how you feel on this subject, maybe I should only aspire to _partially_ try to convince you

The way this stands, it's far too open to re-interpretation, mis-direction and general woolly arguments. So let's try to contain it a little.

18" vs 19" current tyres in Australia, on current LR vehicles. That's a start

So I see 3 general areas here:

1. Issues regarding general availability
2. Issues regarding off-road ability
3. Issues relating to sidewall damage

So ignoring price. And let's assume only legal (max 50mm oversize dia) tyres that fit without modification. Otherwise this becomes a non-ending topic .....

There are only two currently available off-road 19" tyres that fit, so the choice is easy - Goodyear MTR or Pirelli ATR. In 18" there are a select few AT's as well - GG AT2's, GY Silent Armor, Yoko AT/S, but nothing in legal MT's. You're basically stuck with 265/60/18 or 255/55/19

So with regard to point 1:

Out of the cities, if we're restricted to tyres that fit without mods, there is little chance of getting either. Carry your own. The same would apply to std fitment on new Toyo LC's and Prado's.

With regard to point 2:

None of the 18" alternatives will give you the off-road performance of the 19" GY MTR. They are _that_ good. The compromise is road noise. And wear. The Pirelli ATR 19" is as good as any of the 18" in compromise on/off road performance.

With regard to point 3:

Between the 265/60/18 and 255/55/19 there is less than 0.8" in sidewall. This is better than nothing, and in the case of the Pirelli 19" ATR, it _may_ be somewhat significant. As you've indicated, on rocks, shale, you might not want to air down as much (but 25psi will still suffice). On the plus side however a 3.0 ltr D4 on Pirelli ATR's at 25 psi will go further in this kind of terrain than any of the competition. True it's not as good as a mythical D4 on 17" tyres, but it's still better than anything else. In the case of the MTR I don't think it makes any difference worth worrying about.

One could also argue rim damage. If this really concerns you, you probably shouldn't be venturing off-road, as the boys and girls at the golf club will just SCWEAM at what you're doing to your nice new car. Seriously, you'd be going some to really damage it beyond cosmetic issues.

Cheers,

Gordon

Originally Posted by gghaggis

Mmmm, methinks a typo in the above ..........

Knowing how you feel on this subject, maybe I should only aspire to _partially_ try to convince you

Best way to convince me is to advance arguments and evidence. I suspect we'll agree to disagree (again) which is all good with me, I like discussing things with people who hold alternative points of view. It makes me re-examine my own views.

Originally Posted by gghaggis

So I see 3 general areas here:

1. Issues regarding general availability
2. Issues regarding off-road ability
3. Issues relating to sidewall damage

My focus has been not on availability, as that's a short-term problem. How short-term it is...anyone's guess. It's not about sidewall damage either as the sidewalls aren't any more vulnerable to damage than a high-profile. It's ability to air down which is a direct effect of #2.

Originally Posted by gghaggis

So ignoring price. And let's assume only legal (max 50mm oversize dia) tyres that fit without modification. Otherwise this becomes a non-ending topic .....

Only 15mm in NSW and Vic, but yes.

Originally Posted by gghaggis

None of the 18" alternatives will give you the off-road performance of the 19" GY MTR. They are _that_ good. The compromise is road noise. And wear. The Pirelli ATR 19" is as good as any of the 18" in compromise on/off road performance.

This is another point and one I cannot debate as I have no experience of the Pirellis. My point is simple; low-profiles cannot be aired down as far as higher profiles and that restricts offroad capability.

Originally Posted by gghaggis

Between the 265/60/18 and 255/55/19 there is less than 0.8" in sidewall.

Doesn't sound a lot, but allow for the flat spot and then put it in percentage terms and 0.8" becomes significant. Like I said, cross-axle a car downhill and see where the rim ends up.

Originally Posted by gghaggis

This is better than nothing, and in the case of the Pirelli 19" ATR, it _may_ be somewhat significant. As you've indicated, on rocks, shale, you might not want to air down as much (but 25psi will still suffice).

25psi may well suffice. It very well may not depending on the terrain and I've found 20psi gets you places easier than 25. The difference between say 35 and 30 is far less than the difference between 25 and 25. And 'suffice'...taking a sand dune example you may be able to charge it at say 40psi, make it to the top and say it worked and it would have as indeed the car has arrived on top. Or, air down and do it easier and slower. It's not just can the car get there, it's how comfortably and safely it can do it.

As I said, the Disco is a very capable vehicle so it can certainly go lots of places others need aired-down tyres. The first time I drove a Sport I was astounded at where it'd go on its 20" roadies which I dared not air down. That doesn't mean to say it cannot benefit from airing down further, if it could.

Originally Posted by gghaggis

One could also argue rim damage. If this really concerns you, you probably shouldn't be venturing off-road, as the boys and girls at the golf club will just SCWEAM at what you're doing to your nice new car. Seriously, you'd be going some to really damage it beyond cosmetic issues.

For me rim damage is something I'd prefer to avoid, and I prefer to avoid panel scratches. But, it's part of the offroad life. As I don't like either I take steps to minimise both and just put up with what else happens.

However rim damage is not just rock scrapes. It is also bending rims and that's not cosmetic, it's a rim writeoff which is expensive and problematic as then the tyre won't seal and the rim is fatigued and dangerous. Take another rim by all means, but I'd prefer to take steps to avoid the problem in the first place. Alloys cannot be belted back into shape. I'm not advocating steels, but all else being equal, a high-profile tyre does protect its rim better. I don't see how anyone could argue the opposite.

Anyway here's my logic:

1. Given two identical tyres, one high one low profile, which tyre can be aired down further in hilly, rocky, hard terrain?
- high profile, because it protects the rim better.

2. Given two vehicles, identical in every way, one at say 25psi the other at 20. Both have to ascend and descend slippery, muddy tracks. Which one will perform better?
- the aired down vehicle, because contact patch increases (quite a bit) and the tyre is more flexible around stones etc, and it bounces less.

3. If the two identical vehicles above hit identical rocks on a dirt road at 80km/h and both are at any given pressure but one with low and one with high profile tyres which one is most likely to damage a rim?
- low profile

4. Does running lower pressures and speeds lead to less punctures?
- yes, ask any tour operator. Again we come back to the need to run aired down.


I don't think there can be any question about that logic. The last point is particularly pertinent to tourers who maybe don't want to get into really tough forest tracks, but will want to tour on dirt roads.

However that's not really the question now at hand.

The question is; does the D3/D4 need to air down its tyres as far as other cars to keep up with them?
- Answer; no it doesn't, as it's such a superb vehicle offroad.

Therefore, a D3/D4 on low profiles, necessarily aired up more than usual, is still a very good vehicle offroad. But it would be better offroad with high profiles so that's what I run and recommend for others in the same situation. The loss of onroad performance is with highs is far smaller than the loss of offroad with lows.

It's a bit like getting Cathy Freeman to run 200m wearing high heels and because she'll be really quick then saying she doesn't need to wear running shoes.


Is anyone here going to say that, all else being equal, the low-profile tyres perform better in tough low-range going than high-profile tyres? If anyone does believe that I'm genuinely interested to find out why.