Disco 4 Engine System Failure Warning - beware!

**Phil** · 13th October 2010, 11:04 PM

This is a long post, sorry everyone, no 5 second sound bites here, but hopefully some good information.

To all who have an interest in this matter, we have now concluded by many REAL and extensive electrical tests that the second battery system we have on our DISCO 4 cannot possibly have ANY effect at all towards an "Engine Systems Failure" warning, which you may recall caused a serious and dangerous loss of power, even AFTER the Q093 update.

We have conducted many electrical tests, but in this forum, they include a comprehensive set of checks in conjunction with the manufacturer of that second battery system, and those tests as well as the others ALL return zero possibility that an Engine System Failure can be possibly connected with that second battery system. Other professionals in the electronics and electrical industry concur.

So, gals and guys, if you have this problem, don't let some desk clerk trained in repelling warranty claims tell you some BS story to get you to go away. Don't let modern "customer dis(sic)-service" sell you a pile of garbage. Ask any Electronics or Electrical Engineer at any University (get someone independent, not me) and I am confident you will get the same story. Stand up for your rights!

More later on that, as it will all be resolved at some stage, regardless of the method. I will not let this go away until the truth is out!

However, the story continues. I still have computer problems after the last minute Power Control Module update LRA did several weeks ago. I am sure that update (NOT the disconnection of the second battery system) is very likely to have fixed the power loss problem (we still have more checking to do there to verify that, but that checking is now back under way, and 40% complete). Stick to your guns with this one if you have the same problem, get the PCM upgrade and do not accept the vehicle until you have the proof this is done. Do not accept the vehicle back until you are given a copy of the vehicle "feedback" file from the computer which describes the vehicle condition including any error codes in everything which led up to the failure. You can open it in Windows Notebook, but the error codes need translating, I may now be able to help you with that translation.

My advice says you are entitled to that information, so demand it! In fact, my advice suggests you are entitled to that information after EVERY service, regardless of the situation, and it is a very important part of your resale value for any "fly by wire" vehicle. So, I suggest you demand it EVERY time you have your vehicle serviced.

But, back to my problem.... Now, we have an intermittent "Smart Key not found" error immediately after that PCM upgrade. LRA have chosen to ignore this problem for more than 3 weeks!!!!! Not a whisper of a reply. One wonders why this problem would appear, as the Smart Key also has little to do with the Power Control Module. So, why did this happen? I can only surmise.. Why the lack of response? Maybe I need to surmise some more... More on that later too, as the facts reveal themselves......... (Yes, indeed)

So, will I go away? Not a chance. This, I believe, is firstly a safety problem with those who have not had the PCM upgrade and are towing something over about 1500 kgms and secondly it is one going to the core of true client service. I believe I have been advised incorrectly by LRA from the beginning of this problem, and I will not "go away". LRA GM, we know you are on here, but are you listening? I am sure you know who I am and my telephone number.

This is a problem with people who are supposed to fix problems. The vehicle is good, as I have always said. But, LRA seem to be unable to respond properly to fix problems. This is a staffing and sub-contracting problem! Unfortunately this problem goes all the way to the top, the General Manager of Land Rover Australia. That person has decided (maybe I should say they have "determined" if the monitors of this site know what I mean) they will not respond either, even after addressing them (he/she) directly.

Too much Chardonnay in the "behind closed doors" boardroom maybe?. Maybe there isn't a GM......??? Who knows in "modern", "customer service", "open door", management "systems"? It has been more than 3 weeks, they seems to be ignoring their warranty obligations...

One out of left field while I am at it - does one not wonder why the price of these vehicles has not changed at all, even though the exchange rate has improved against the pound in leaps and bounds since the local price was first "determined"? Maybe more Chardy is needed in Epping! Maybe someone should start a thread on this one! Over to someone else who feels the prices should not be where they are given the exchange rate.

When one buys a vehicle, warranty is part of the package, or the supplier says it is, but LRA seems to be having problems supplying that essential parameter. Maybe they need appropriately trained staff!! I don't know, but I believe LRA support is not working as it should be now. So, get to know your dealer and support them as much as you can in the search for real and meaningful information from LRA - that is my suggestion! You pay $100,000 for a vehicle. One of the expectations is that you get commensurate service. I have personally not seen any evidence of this from LRA, (I exclude the dealers from this view, as they (seem) to do what they can in a difficult situation)

I stress, this does not appear in any form to be a problem of any of the dealers technical staff, I have submitted our problem direct to LRA, as this new "Smart Key" problem appeared only after work LRA technical staff themselves are "supposed" to have done on our vehicle to fix our power problem All they seem to have done is shift the problem to the Smart Key recognition. The continuing answer is silence, and I think will remain that way until some sense is injected into this discussion. Maybe others outside LRA with real investigative responsibility need to know about all these dangerous power loss problems. What does everyone out there think?

**CaverD3** · 14th October 2010, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Phil

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is a long post, sorry everyone, no 5 second sound bites here, but hopefully some good information

Who do you think you are? Colin? (BBS Spy)

Dealers seem to be getting frustrated with the lack of communication and support from LRA.
With me with all businesses, it is not if something goes wrong but how they deal with it when it does.
LRA could be working night and day to resolve the issue, LR HQ could be dragging their feet or they could be trying too. The problem is they have not communicated what is going on. Seems like they stuck their head inthe sand at the begining.

Agree about supporting dealers. You may pay more for servicing but when something goes wrong they will back you. If you service elsewhere you cannot be surprised that they are less enthusiastic when you turn up with a warranty issue.

**clubagreenie** · 14th October 2010, 10:21 AM

Wonder if you drove it through their front window and put it down to a "power gain" issue if they'd deny it?

**DiscoWeb** · 14th October 2010, 12:49 PM

[QUOTE=Phil;1350231][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]One out of left field while I am at it - does one not wonder why the price of these vehicles has not changed at all, even though the exchange rate has improved against the pound in leaps and bounds since the local price was first "determined"?

Phil,

Hope your power issue gets sorted, I trust that male/female/non existent LRA GM is suitably cowering in a corner hoping you will go away but realising you will not.

Whilst I will not start a new thread about currency movements I would say, would you be happy to pay more when the $aud moves negative ?

About 18 months ago I think the $AUD was down in the 60 cents range Vs the $US, so you $100k D4 would have cost a hell of a lot more.

There are swings and round abouts in the FOREX game and regular price fluctuations based on exchange rate would not be something I would want to see in pricing of vehicles.

Obviously if it stays high for a long time I would expect to see some pricing benefit but do not hold your breath.

Regards,

George

**Phil** · 17th October 2010, 03:27 PM

Hi George,

I would assume the vehicles are priced against the UK Pound seeing that is where they are made, not the USD. I may be wrong here of course, but if it were the USD, the story would be not much different as both currencies have moved similarly over the time period in question.

In any case it really does not matter, it is a choice for every person buying a vehicle if they are willing to pay the price for what they get. Lots of factors come into that decision of course and we won't go into that.

However, price gouging, if it occurs anywhere, is not very attractive wherever it occurs. I am NOT saying that is what is happening at all, but one does tend to wonder about the sustained high price of ALL imported vehicles given the lower tarrifs and strength of the Australia Dollar.

With LR, the facts are that the local price of the D4 series was prepared in August, 2009 before a distributors meeting in Melbourne. At that time, the exchange rate was A$1.00= UKPound0.5148 (maximum in August as I do not know the exact date of the meeting). One would assume that LRA was making a profit at this rate. That is actually the highest it had been for as long ago as my records take me, and that is back to January, 1990.

Now, the exchange rate is A$1.00=UKPound0.6189, as of close of business last Friday afternoon. This translates to me as an improvement in the exchange rate of some 20.4% in favour of Australian buyers.

Now, I know that actual fixed costs to importers have to be covered, and factory cost structures also have to be covered, but a decrease in price of zero is simply not sustainable, particulary seeing the UK list price has not changed.

One wonders, doesn't one?

As far as prices changing with exchange rate, I personally have no problem with that at all, it certainly happens with most other goods we buy and sell internationally (look at fuel, iron ore, coal, bananas, wheat and TV's for instance), so I don't see why it should not happen with vehicles - it would actually make them more competitive, and many would say that is not a bad thing.

You are right, I am not going away on the other matter, and thanks everyone for the support.

**Bushwanderer** · 18th October 2010, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Phil

SNIP
I would assume the vehicles are priced against the UK Pound seeing that is where they are made, not the USD.SNIP

Hi Phil,
I'm sorry, but your premise is wrong. Vehicles are priced according to what is seen that the market will bear.

Best Wishes,
Peter

**CaverD3** · 18th October 2010, 04:06 PM

I think you will find they would have taken out some form of exchange rate insurance or bought futures. So they have some certainty of cost. Means they cannot put the price down and would not have to put it up if it went the other way.

**gghaggis** · 18th October 2010, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Phil

Hi George,

I would assume the vehicles are priced against the UK Pound seeing that is where they are made, not the USD.

The cost in some other country is almost irrelevant - in a fiat economy, your purchase power is based solely on your local currency - that is what you are paid in and it's (idealistically) independent of any foreign currency.

You can't compare absolute cost of a D4 in the UK to the price here. About the best you can do is compare relative costs to other items in the same country.

Cheers,

Gordon

d3viate · 18th October 2010, 08:37 PM

My D3 had the same loss of power and vehicle lowering this weekend just gone, the warning flashing this time was a park brake fault , at 110kms passing a roadtrain at one time on the road just south of Northampton to Geraldton with people behind me. It happened nearly ten times in the two days. Every time there is a fault with these vehicles they lower and it has happened to me many times usually in the worst place possible.
Groups such as TagaLong tours do not take people with Discovery 3/4s on the CSR now I am told, too many having to be left out there because the default is to lower to the bumpstops.
The people who write the software should be taken out the back and shot like Breaker Morant. Shove all the sofware engineers in a Discovery and send them bush in Australia for a few months if there are any left after that and let me know where they are, not that I would be able to reach them without breaking down again.
Discoverys are made for picking up the kids from school in a city with a (good) dealer. In thirty years of many, many vehicles, never have I felt so disheartened with a car that pretends to be 4X4 for Australia, and my first new one at that.
LRA are as useful as tits on a bull when you have a problem telling you to sort it out with the dealer principal yourself.
I was talking to the service advisor this morning and we talked of your very problem of a second battery in a D4, (as my D3 has every accessory for bush which I thought these were for) he stated because the car monitors the battery it does not like a second battery (after all, why would a 4X4 require a second battery !!) and if you have one fitted it should have a solar panel he tells me !, not charged by the car.
Anybody want a D3 with everything for going bush but actually cant ?

**stig0000** · 18th October 2010, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by d3viate

My D3 had the same loss of power and vehicle lowering this weekend just gone, the warning flashing this time was a park brake fault , at 110kms passing a roadtrain at one time on the road just south of Northampton to Geraldton with people behind me. It happened nearly ten times in the two days. Every time there is a fault with these vehicles they lower and it has happened to me many times usually in the worst place possible.
Groups such as TagaLong tours do not take people with Discovery 3/4s on the CSR now I am told, too many having to be left out there because the default is to lower to the bumpstops.
The people who write the software should be taken out the back and shot like Breaker Morant. Shove all the sofware engineers in a Discovery and send them bush in Australia for a few months if there are any left after that and let me know where they are, not that I would be able to reach them without breaking down again.
Discoverys are made for picking up the kids from school in a city with a (good) dealer. In thirty years of many, many vehicles, never have I felt so disheartened with a car that pretends to be 4X4 for Australia, and my first new one at that.
LRA are as useful as tits on a bull when you have a problem telling you to sort it out with the dealer principal yourself.
I was talking to the service advisor this morning and we talked of your very problem of a second battery in a D4, (as my D3 has every accessory for bush which I thought these were for) he stated because the car monitors the battery it does not like a second battery (after all, why would a 4X4 require a second battery !!) and if you have one fitted it should have a solar panel he tells me !, not charged by the car.
Anybody want a D3 with everything for going bush but actually cant ?

so are you telling me you agree that the d3/4 is a unreliable car by put the software people in one and sending them out west,????

and i am pleased to tell you that NOT every fault with the car will put it on its stops,

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