Thread: Portals & D3's

Originally Posted by TerryO

Hello Rich,

Not sure why you feel the need to keep on making sarcastic comments towards me on this topic, this is the second time now.

Can I refer you to my original posting/comment on this topic.

Terry

I'm being realistic!!!
Again I'm not saying it's impossible, what I am saying is all about the costs and legalities of such a radical re engineering of a D3 / D4 or RRS.

Really as mentioned modifing a Defender would be a lot easier.
I've been a member of a 4wd club for over 20 yrs, one of my mates was the organiser of the very first Tough Truck Challenge which he ran for a few years before selling the event off. Yes I've seen many a super modified 4wd and even on a basic old fashioned 4x4 it is an expensive / time consuming process.

Why is this topic even in the D3/D4/RRS section? surely it belongs in the Extreme Zone. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/xtreme-zone/

Don't shoot me down for raising the important points of this discussion,
Legalities and Cost viability.

Hi Rich,

In all seriousness why should I not be able to ask questions and then discuss topics like this about D3's in the D3/4 site without being mocked?

Surely at least some D3/4 owners have some interest in potential radical modifications to their vehicles for off road usage? I know I do and that is why I asked the question in the first place to see if it was possible.

In reality we all own a small niche brand vehicle compared to the big Jap 4x4 manufacturers. If we were all just absolute realists that took the simplist and easiest path then we would all own Toyota Landcruisers. Afterall they are the cheapist and easiest 4x4 on the market to modify with the largest list of mod parts available of any brand.

If people want to comment on topics like this then surely that is up to them, if they don't then no one is forcing them to. How about we stop this right here and now and just move on.

If and when I find out about the Greek shocks I will let you know and if your interested then lets see if they are worth getting.

cheers,
Terry

Hi Ben/Terry,

If you look at my first post on this topic, you'll notice I said a suspension lift would give "similar" results, not the same - I also noted that you'd need to re-adjust the camber (which would probably require modification to the lower control arms at least) and to the CV's (maybe even fit a Thompson coupling!!) - Ben, are you still in "skim" mode ?

I think you're both underestimating how hard it is becoming to get engineering approval for such mods, and a 4" lift is way beyond that allowed for in the NCOP documents. So I think it's safe to say that, even though it _may_ have slipped through in the past (and I've never heard of an independent, air suspension vehicle being approved for road use with after-market portals in Oz!), it would become an off-road only vehicle.

As an academic question, of course you could fit portals. AND a suspension lift. AND a body lift. And add an extra axle. And increase the track. Has anyone seriously thought about it? I doubt it - the reason most balk at extreme mods to vehicles like D3's and D4's is that the vast majority are still under warranty, and voiding that on a $80 000+ vehicle is cause for concern. Making such a vehicle illegal also doesn't make financial sense. Far more cost effective to get an old Defender 90 and start from there. You'd end up with a far more capable off-roader as well.

The great strength of the D3/D4 is that it can more than keep up with any other stock 4WD, and still provide an on-road experience that is light-years ahead. If you compromise one or the other of these, why have one in the first place? It makes little sense.

So to realistically answer your original question - "can it be done", no, not effectively. Better to start with a less complicated base.

Cheers,

Gordon

Originally Posted by gghaggis

Hi Ben/Terry,

If you look at my first post on this topic, you'll notice I said a suspension lift would give "similar" results, not the same - I also noted that you'd need to re-adjust the camber (which would probably require modification to the lower control arms at least) and to the CV's (maybe even fit a Thompson coupling!!) - Ben, are you still in "skim" mode ?

...

Gordon

Gordon, I read what you said, but disagree that a D3 with modified control arms, suspension and CVs would be "similar" to fitting portals.

I think that TerryO is correct. In 5-10 years these vehicles will be cheap - and - assuming they are still on the road, there will be people who wish to modify them for serious offroad use. That may include fitting portals???

I haven't read the latest VSB/NCOP draft, however an earlier iteration allowed 150 mm total lift (Tyres+BL+SL) and 50 mm increase in track.

However, as we can see currently, there are plenty of 4x4 owners willing to perform modifications that are beyond the legalities.

Originally Posted by isuzurover

Gordon, I read what you said, but disagree that a D3 with modified control arms, suspension and CVs would be "similar" to fitting portals.

Although technically very different, many of the end results - ramp-over angle, centre (below diff) ground clearance, tyre-size fitment - would be similar. Others such as gearing and track could be made similar (diff ratios, spacers etc). Obviously clearance below the outside CV joint would differ. Compared to std live axle set-ups, there is not such an advantage to fitting portals to a variable-height independent vehicle. The diff clearance (usually the biggest reason for fitting portals) is no longer an issue.

Originally Posted by isuzurover

I think that TerryO is correct. In 5-10 years these vehicles will be cheap - and - assuming they are still on the road, there will be people who wish to modify them for serious offroad use. That may include fitting portals???

I haven't read the latest VSB/NCOP draft, however an earlier iteration allowed 150 mm total lift (Tyres+BL+SL) and 50 mm increase in track.

However, as we can see currently, there are plenty of 4x4 owners willing to perform modifications that are beyond the legalities.

As I said - ASSUME that the resultant vehicle will be illegal - even more so in "5 to 10 years" with the way our culture is suffocating in OHS legislation.

For someone with enough money and time, it would make an interesting competition car, but just fitting portals wouldn't be enough, as in that case you'd probably be relegated to the extreme classes, where the size and manoeuvrability of the D3 would let it down.

Cheers,

Gordon

Originally Posted by gghaggis

Hi Ben/Terry,

Edited:

As an academic question, of course you could fit portals.

Edited:


So to realistically answer your original question - "can it be done", no, not effectively. Better to start with a less complicated base.

Cheers,

Gordon

Sorry Gordon you are contradicting yourself here, either it can be done or it can't, you have said both in one post.

As for it being best to only do modifications to less complicated vehicles well that comes back to Rich's comment about being realists about what can or should be done as far as mods go and if we were all realists looking for the least complicated path then we would all be driving 4x4 Toyota's and Patrol's rather then Land Rovers.

I'm the first to admit I have very limited knowledge compared to many on this website when it comes to 4x4 mods, but as far as I can see portals make much more sense logically as a mod on a D3 then trying to lift the independant suspension and the body to attain a similar or more then likely lesser clearance than portals would give.

And Portals no one argues so far would be much stronger and chances are more reliable and would make the vehicle far more stable for serious off road use.

As for comp trucks I'd guess maybe less then 5% of 4x4 owners have comp trucks or do comps. There are plenty of very higly modified 4x4's out there that just get used on weekends in the bush and never see competition.

The same things goes for highly modified road bikes/ race bikes, in NSW's there are over 7,000 regular riders who do ride days on race tracks each year and many of their bikes are far more modified then the bikes that get raced. As for modern road racing there is less then 600 comp license holders in NSW and only about 250 odd actually race.


cheers,
Terry

Terry,

No I'm not contradicting myself - I read my response several times before posting, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough?

Academically - yes it can be done. With enough money almost anything can be done.

Realistically - no, it doesn't make sense, especially at this point in time where there are far better-suited Land Rover products. I'm afraid I don't see the connect between being a realist and driving Toyotas.

The most over-riding reason people fit portals is to increase the clearance under the diff. IMO, the majority of people who have done this would not go to this level of complexity if there was a better way of increasing this clearance. Unfortunately with a live axle car, there is no real alternative.

In a D3 you do not have that disadvantage. The diff is no longer the point of minimum clearance. It thus greatly reduces the argument for the need to fit portals. A body lift (and yes, maybe a suspension lift too), some judicious cutting of the wheel arches and fitting say 35" tyres, will give you around as much lift under your diff as fitting a set of portals to a live axle 4WD. However, probably still just as illegal, so really just an academic exercise as well.

So given that (much easier) path, why would you want to fit them?

Cheers,

Gordon

One other point that has been raised is why would anyone want to modify a expensive D3.

Some D3's are a massive amount cheaper now then they were even 12 months ago. Even on here I have heard of D3 owners being offered extremely low trade in prices and I have seen D3's for sale under 30k now.

Good D2a's sell for high teens for V8's and for low twentys for TD5's.

The gap between D2a and D3's is closing so D3's aren't the expensive vehicle that many may think. I saw a top condition 2005 HSE V8 D3 with only 120k on the clock get bid up to only $28,100 recently on ebay. I know the owner and he is struggling to get a buyer at any price so it won't be long before there are plenty of D3's being sold for numbers in the high twenty thousands.

So even now D3's are fast becoming affordable 4x4's for the guys who do mods to their vehicles. Go have a look on the D2 site, there are pelnty of highly modded D2's out there that would struggle with rego but that doesn't stop them being modded.

cheers,
Terry