Thread: Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

Celtoid:

"Boat anchor": was refering to the toyota v8 just for you info not the tdv6..no working vehicle is over powered! Its about reliabilty, to much power to much stress on mechanical parts, especailly off road!

The point im trying to make is simple:
The d4 is over powered, has poor body clearance, 19 inch rims with ****y tyres, poor angles of approach etc, spare tyre under vehicle, smaller cargo bay, smaller payload of 250kg, is less fuel efficient.....great for 4wding?

The point; offraod is similar to a working vehicles environment! The d4 specs read well on tarmac parked during a school run
...

Try to get it mate, the d4 has nothing in common with the traits of a tough working vehicle. By the way Land Rover refers to the defender as "their toughest vehicle" not the d4....am i missing something.

Originally Posted by 1nando

Celtoid:


The point im trying to make is simple:
The d4 is over powered, has poor body clearance, 19 inch rims with ****y tyres, poor angles of approach etc, spare tyre under vehicle, smaller cargo bay, smaller payload of 250kg, is less fuel efficient.....great for 4wding?

The point; offraod is similar to a working vehicles environment! The d4 specs read well on tarmac parked during a school run
...

Try to get it mate, the d4 has nothing in common with the traits of a tough working vehicle. By the way Land Rover refers to the defender as "their toughest vehicle" not the d4....am i missing something.

Yep your missing something, actually your missing a lot. Do you even read the threads in your own section? Because if you did you would read lots of story's of failed chassis.

Show me one Disco with a failed chassis, just one! ... That's right you can't.

Ok old mate, here is another one that seriously calls into question the strength and safety of your 'tough' Defenders.

Why are there so many threads in the Defender section on buying and installing roll cages and which ones are best? Can you find one picture anywhere of a D3/4 with a flat roof after a roll over?

I won't even mention the lack of any basic passenger or driver safety devices like airbags. Let's just look at how strong a Defender roof is.

Do a Goggle search on crash damaged Defenders and there are dozens of them with flat roofs. These vehicles aren't tough, they are basically unstable and bloody dangerous when they roll.

Originally Posted by manic

Ooo im about to sound out some statistics from my own ass trumpet.

5% of discovery drivers use them offroad.

70% of disco drivers were not allowed to get a defender because of wife/kids.

100% of kids in a disco want to have a dad with a defender.

15% of disco drivers cant tie up their shoe laces and think laces are redundant because Velcro is a newer technology.

Good sir, I like the cut of your jib.

Originally Posted by letherm

No, no, no. That 15% use slip on shoes.

Martin

Let's not forget the poor sould who wear crocs!

Originally Posted by roverrescue

Getting back to actual differences...
Tonight I watched all for adventure episodes to and from Bathurst heads.
I kinda sorta know that road. The boys biggest biggest biggest problem was GVM
200 s with heavy trailers absolutely suck in those conditions.
Hell 200s or any 3t ish four bites suck in that slop.

I've Ben there and can categorically say my fender ute with sub 1000kg boat would have got in and out from the heads in about 5hours vs their 2 days.


Weight kills

S

If we are starting to bring the Toyota into the equation, yesterday I drove a 200 series landcruiser Sahara on the Toyota test track at the tamworth music festival. 130K of vehicle over what I considered to be a track with moderate difficulty (within the realms of what they could create in a public park). 30 degree side slopes, cross axle ramps, bumpy rock section, 30 degree hill climb and descent.

Despite being in a car with all the bells and whistles (including air conditioned seats - I had a chilly ballsack by the end of the drive ), the biggest thing that I felt by the end of it was that it was such a detached drive from what I was used to in the defender. Some thoughts that could be extrapolated a similar class vehicle, being the D4:

• Independent suspension - Not fussed, vehicle still bottomed out over some of the rocky sections
• Side angles were not an issue, but similarly, still far from the max vehicle side angle and well within the 'safe zone' for a defender (or disco?)
• Steering feedback was vague. Couldn't feel what the wheels were doing, or wanted to do.
• Toyota suspension setup was comfortable, but not as direct feeling as what I'm used to. Probably a plus for onroad work, but once again, left me feeling detached from the offroad drive.
• ABS and hill descent controls sounded like they were ghoing to rip the chassis apart as they actuated on the 30 degree hill descent. I'd much prefer to be in control in such a situation, rather than being a steering wheel attendant just along for the ride.
• As nice as the air conditioned comfort and my chilly nether regions were... it's not the same experience. Just like a good meal, the involvement of all your senses add to the enjoyment of the experience. In the toyota i was in a comfortable coccoon driving a course. In the defender, I'm more involved / engaged with the course

So... capability wise, will we ever know what is more competent off road between the D4 nad the puma? as I've mentioned before, probably not without some rock-solid real world guidelines and practical testing.
But IMO, there's more to offroad than comfort and to some extent capability. It's about getting in touch with the environment as well. Which the defender is very good at.

Originally Posted by Celtoid

Depending on the model, max torque of 600+ nm is available around 2000 RPM on a D4 (higher RPM on the older cars). There is also 500 nm AVAILABLE around 12 - 1400 RPM. There is also everything in between. This is a driver discretion issue ... as in ... apply just the right amount at just the right time .... you get that?


What point are you trying to make?


The D4 CAN produce (you get that don't you?) 600+ at around 2000+ RPM.


The Puma produces a similar ratio curve maybe .... but nowhere near the actual output at any stage. You get that?


Of course ... the D4 is overpowered and is designed to tear everything to shreds as it cannot be regulated! The car and the whole world are at threat.

I wasn't saying they have the same torque.
I'm saying they have similar torque curves so the delivery of the torque proportionally is similar. I was referring to comments about puma torque from idle.
Looking at vehicles weights in proportion to torque - the defer is about 80% of D4 weight 60% of torque (so the deefer is like a D4 with 480nm)

Originally Posted by 1nando

Celtoid:


The point im trying to make is simple:
The d4 is over powered, has poor body clearance, 19 inch rims with ****y tyres, poor angles of approach etc, spare tyre under vehicle, smaller cargo bay, smaller payload of 250kg, is less fuel efficient.....great for 4wding?

The point; offraod is similar to a working vehicles environment! The d4 specs read well on tarmac parked during a school run
...

Try to get it mate, the d4 has nothing in common with the traits of a tough working vehicle. By the way Land Rover refers to the defender as "their toughest vehicle" not the d4....am i missing something.

Old mate believe me we all get it that you drive big trucks, good for you.

You keep raving on about Defenders being work vehicles, some are, but most aren't. Show me all the threads in the Defender section talking about how their Defenders are 'work vehicles'. Sure some are on farms and apparently on a regular basis carry lots of goat, cow and or chicken poo for some strange reason inside their vehicles so they then need to hose them out, again each to their own if carrying poo inside your vehicle is your thing, but can you please explain how does this improve their 4 wheel drive prowess?

Having read posts in the Defender section for years I can say with confidence that the vast majority of Defenders are owned and used for exactly the same things as Disco owners use their vehicles for, so how about giving it a rest on the furphy about them being work trucks.
How do they measure up as every day drivers? In comparison when you measure a number of criteria to a Disco, obviously pretty poorly sorry to say That's fine though, each to their own, drive what you want to, but bugger all of what you have said comes even close to the original comparison about off road prowess between the two vehicles when compared with roughly the same size and spec tyres fitted.

They say ignorance is bliss and dare I say it but it's pretty obvious that you know nothing about late model Disco's otherwise you wouldn't keep ranting about them being overpowered. I bet you have never driven one seriously either on or off road, yet you want to tell everyone about what it right and what is wrong.

Originally Posted by TerryO

Ok old mate, here is another one that seriously calls into question the strength and safety of your 'tough' Defenders.

Why are there so many threads in the Defender section on buying and installing roll cages and which ones are best? Can you find one picture anywhere of a D3/4 with a flat roof after a roll over?

Do a Goggle search on crash damaged Defenders and there are dozens of them with flat roofs. These vehicles aren't tough, they are basically unstable and bloody dangerous when they roll.

Dont disagree with that, its body on ladder frame chassis. This gives a better centre of gravity and keeps vehicle weight down in the defenderhowever it is unsafe.

But the reason you see rolled defenders in the first place is because people push them hard, harder than what most d4s will ever be pushed

Originally Posted by 1nando

Dont disagree with that, its body on ladder frame chassis. This gives a better centre of gravity and keeps vehicle weight down in the defenderhowever it is unsafe.

But the reason you see rolled defenders in the first place is because people push them hard, harder than what most d4s will ever be pushed

Wrong! Just about all of the pictures of rolled Defenders shows it happening on public roads, these tough vehicles apart from having, not so strong chassis, are basically unstable. They have no stability control or decent braking systems, so when the drivers get in a sticky situation they can more easily lose control and roll their vehicles or end up driving head on into other vehicles or immovable objects. I guess that is when the built in crumple zones and airbags protect the Defender occupants from serious injury or worse.

Bugger! That's right they don't have airbags or built in crumple zones or stability control or good brakes, or reinforced roofs that don't just fold flat if rolled.

But that's ok, because the original comparison does not mention vehicle safety standards or poo carrying capability or strength and reliability of drive trains including diff's, gearboxes, clutches, drive shafts, cv's and or chassis strength and durability, it only attempted to compare in a sensible balanced discussion the off road prowess if both vehicles have similar sized and spec tyres.

So how are we going with the original comparison?