Thread: New D4 - now the expensive bit begins.

Originally Posted by GregMilner

Agree entirely. In my old RRS I was always a bit worried about the spare slung under the car on rough roads, although I've never heard of anyone destroying one because of that.
But having to empty the back of the car to lower it down, change a wheel and put the flat one back up in its pozzie and load the car up again, on a stinking hot day somewhere on the GRR with road trains going past every ten minutes - as happened a few years ago - kind of put me off the whole experience. Thus my plan to put a RWC on the new D4. (When it finally arrives - now pushed out to the first week of March.)

Yup also good reasons Greg. It's clearly not AS big of a deal with the 265s though. My 285 spare was a great big sand anchor.

I too intend eventually getting a single wheel rear carrier for the D4 and have never considered having 2 hanging off the back.
After around 18 -20 years of travelling many roads including the GRR and many much more remote roads, I can't even remember the last puncture we had.
I never travel on dodgy tyres and have for years carried 2 inner tubes (16' wheels) to possibly assist if a hole was hard to fix. We would rather get new tyres and flog off the ones replaced to offset the cost a bit than do what another club member does and run on crap he's had in the back yard for years.... and has suffered blowouts completely stopping him and damaging his trailer because of it!
I think our way, although more expensive in the short term is safer and with less speed plus lowering pressures and reasonably careful driving has helped and that's the way I intend to continue.
Just checked a quote I had from one well known supplier of 4by stuff for the fitting of a SWC .... nearly 2 grand for something with no manufacturers name? Surely for that sort of money someone will admit to making it?
Not for me thnx., I'll get one from a company that puts it's name on its product.
AlanH.

Originally Posted by ATH

I too intend eventually getting a single wheel rear carrier for the D4 and have never considered having 2 hanging off the back.
After around 18 -20 years of travelling many roads including the GRR and many much more remote roads, I can't even remember the last puncture we had.
I never travel on dodgy tyres and have for years carried 2 inner tubes (16' wheels) to possibly assist if a hole was hard to fix. We would rather get new tyres and flog off the ones replaced to offset the cost a bit than do what another club member does and run on crap he's had in the back yard for years.... and has suffered blowouts completely stopping him and damaging his trailer because of it!
I think our way, although more expensive in the short term is safer and with less speed plus lowering pressures and reasonably careful driving has helped and that's the way I intend to continue.
Just checked a quote I had from one well known supplier of 4by stuff for the fitting of a SWC .... nearly 2 grand for something with no manufacturers name? Surely for that sort of money someone will admit to making it?
Not for me thnx., I'll get one from a company that puts it's name on its product.
AlanH.

Alan if that was OL it is probably the Outback Accessories unit and would be more OLs sales technique(probably because they want to imply it's their own when it's not is all i can assume) than it is the manufacturers. $2k is expensive though. You could go Front Runner or Rijidij.

I was a bit out off at first too until poking around their website, reviews and locally made.

My 2c worth for what it is worth.........

Dual battery using Traxide battery isolator. Traxide seems to be worthwhile particuarly if also towing a powered van etc. I currently use a Redarc SBI, but will be changing to Traxide in near future.

Bullbar - jury out. As others have said, sensible driving (avoiding early am and late pm) for us is the norm. Having said that only time I have hit a roo was in middle of the day, in fact the stupid thing ran into the side of the car. A mate who has travelled 100K in 2 years on the road across Oz, does not have a bull bar and would not put one in. Personal preference I guess.

Stone Stopper - fabulous. I should also have installed new front mud flaps to go with the Defender rears. Back fender guards a bit worse for wear without decent front flaps.

Have not found the need for a Mitch Hitch, but our offroad towing is not particularly hard core like some others. Horses for courses. Typically stick to roads like Edward Giles, Old Jim Jim Road, Oodnadatta Track, Mereenie Loop etc, which are not particuarly hard core off road tracks. Use a TBR upturned. Carries the same load.

Can carry a reasonable amount of fuel on camper if necessary. So no long range tank. Would look to Boab or similar if ever needed.

Extra spare tyre is on Rhino Rack. Bit of a pain to get down, but not the issue of unloading back of car to get OEM spare down which is second spare. Avoiding SWC and additional weight.

Have resisted the urge to spend hard earned on 18" GOE wheels, although have not completely discounted. Use Maxiss 980 Bravo LT. So far have done the trick for me, but not for some others.

Have thought about rock sliders and would do this next time I venture into a hardcore 4x4 experience. But main protection I need is Compressor plate. GOE or APT preference. Probably APT because of local distributor (as for rock sliders).

UHF - Icom, but any of the major brands seem to be good (GME, Uniden etc). Antennae is probably more important and mounting. Mine is on side of bonnett and not convinced this is ideal. Centre of roof is probably preferable. Difficult with tray.

Have toyed with idea of Satellite phone, but not proceeded. Optus' sleeve looks like a good option, although there is not a lot of info available from their franchise stores when I last enquired. Online now providing better info.

Haven't entertained a snorkel, but question is do I real need one. Am I going to wade deeper than the LR advised depth? Probably not. Could I use a blanket/bra instead - probably. Would it allow the car to breath better on dirt roads - possibly. Is it reversible when I sell the car - possibly but expensive. Transmission breathers - possibly?

LLAMS - yes a real benefit, and if for nothing else but accessing car parks.

REDARC Tow pro +++

Bottle jack (one modified for Discos).

Diesel fuel filter. Would consider if venturing into 'the unknown' less well trodden paths where fuel quality maybe questionable.

Oil cooler - maybe given towing requirement but need more research.

Originally Posted by laughto

My 2c worth for what it is worth.........

Dual battery using Traxide battery isolator. Traxide seems to be worthwhile particuarly if also towing a powered van etc. I currently use a Redarc SBI, but will be changing to Traxide in near future.

Bullbar - jury out. As others have said, sensible driving (avoiding early am and late pm) for us is the norm. Having said that only time I have hit a roo was in middle of the day, in fact the stupid thing ran into the side of the car. A mate who has travelled 100K in 2 years on the road across Oz, does not have a bull bar and would not put one in. Personal preference I guess.

Stone Stopper - fabulous. I should also have installed new front mud flaps to go with the Defender rears. Back fender guards a bit worse for wear without decent front flaps.

Have not found the need for a Mitch Hitch, but our offroad towing is not particularly hard core like some others. Horses for courses. Typically stick to roads like Edward Giles, Old Jim Jim Road, Oodnadatta Track, Mereenie Loop etc, which are not particuarly hard core off road tracks. Use a TBR upturned. Carries the same load.

Can carry a reasonable amount of fuel on camper if necessary. So no long range tank. Would look to Boab or similar if ever needed.

Extra spare tyre is on Rhino Rack. Bit of a pain to get down, but not the issue of unloading back of car to get OEM spare down which is second spare. Avoiding SWC and additional weight.

Have resisted the urge to spend hard earned on 18" GOE wheels, although have not completely discounted. Use Maxiss 980 Bravo LT. So far have done the trick for me, but not for some others.

Have thought about rock sliders and would do this next time I venture into a hardcore 4x4 experience. But main protection I need is Compressor plate. GOE or APT preference. Probably APT because of local distributor (as for rock sliders).

UHF - Icom, but any of the major brands seem to be good (GME, Uniden etc). Antennae is probably more important and mounting. Mine is on side of bonnett and not convinced this is ideal. Centre of roof is probably preferable. Difficult with tray.

Have toyed with idea of Satellite phone, but not proceeded. Optus' sleeve looks like a good option, although there is not a lot of info available from their franchise stores when I last enquired. Online now providing better info.

Haven't entertained a snorkel, but question is do I real need one. Am I going to wade deeper than the LR advised depth? Probably not. Could I use a blanket/bra instead - probably. Would it allow the car to breath better on dirt roads - possibly. Is it reversible when I sell the car - possibly but expensive. Transmission breathers - possibly?

LLAMS - yes a real benefit, and if for nothing else but accessing car parks.

REDARC Tow pro +++

Bottle jack (one modified for Discos).

Diesel fuel filter. Would consider if venturing into 'the unknown' less well trodden paths where fuel quality maybe questionable.

Oil cooler - maybe given towing requirement but need more research.

That all sounds very sensible. After considering all comments and advice, I've revised my 'must have' list.

1) I'll stick with a RWC and long range tank.
2) brake controller and Anderson plug for obvious reasons.
3) Safari snorkel - for peace of mind in Lichfield etc.
4) IID tool
5) UHF.
6) Maxxis LTs - 6 ordered.
7) compressor plate

The others - maybe, maybe not. Would prefer not to have a bullbar if possible. We try to avoid early morning/late afternoon travel too. And I could do with spending the $3K elsewhere. Llams - not convinced. Traxide - not convinced for earlier stated reasons. Sliders - definitely not. Mitch hitch... will see how the OEM one goes first. Have thought about stone stompers, might be a good idea. Diff breathers? Probably not, I think the OEM ones on the transmission and diffs should be adequate.

Originally Posted by GregMilner

Traxide - not convinced for earlier stated reasons.

Hi Greg and not sure what you mean but here is some info that may be of use to you

With more than 4,000 D3s and D4s equipped with my DBS. Both here and around the world, they are well and truely tested and here is a comparison with other types of DBS.

this is also for other D3 and D4 owners who are looking at fitting some form of dual battery system to their Discos, but do not fully understand how different systems actually work and which give the best all round performance.

For those still trying to sort out fact from advertising fiction, the following should help.

The first problem most people have when trying to determine what is the best system for their needs, is the amount of misinformation that is used to market many of the products used to set up a dual battery system.

A perfect example of deliberate misinformation is the advertising hype used to sell DC/DC devices. It is not just misinformation but also the lack of full disclosure that results in people ending up with an over priced but under performing dual battery system.

There are plenty of sellers claiming that an alternator will not fully charge a battery but then claim that a DC/DC device "CAN" fully charge a battery, and it is this type of claim, that makes it sound like you need a DC/DC device because it can do what an alternator "ALLEGEDLY" can not do.

While the claim that a DC/DC device "CAN" fully charge a battery, is correct, but unless the potential buyer is aware of what is actually required to fully charge a LOW 12v battery, they then are lead to believe that a DC/DC device will do a batter job than an alternator can.

Reality is that the only time alternators can not fully charge batteries, is when the vehicle is not driven long enough to allow the alternator to do what it is designed to do.

This is where the advertising misinformation comes in.

The same short driving that prevents an alternator from from fully charging a battery will have at least the same effect when charging with a DC/DC device and in many cases when charging a low battery with a DC/DC, the battery will actually ends up being in a lower state of charge at the end of a short drive than what it would have been had it been charge by the alternator.

Here is a real world example of what the misinformation can lead to.

If you have an Optima D34, a 55Ah auxiliary battery, in a low state of charge, a combination of the high operating voltage and the high current from the D3 and D4 alternator, you can charge the Optima from 0% SoC ( 10.5v ) to well over 95% in under an hours drive.

Using a 40 amp DC/DC device, it will take around 90 minutes to achieve that same level of charge and using a 20 amp DC/DC device will take close to 3 hours, to do what your alternator can do in under an hour.

Furthermore, with a DC/DC setup, you have 45Ah available to power your accessories, but with a Traxide DBS, you have 90Ah available. NOTE this extra usable battery capacity is available with out the need to add another battery, there is no additional weight or lose of space, as would be needed to get the same amount of usable battery capacity when using a DC/DC device or any other VSR type isolator.

So you need to do your homework before outlaying your hard earned cash.

Here are some other comparisons between Traxide DBS performance and that of other types of DBS setups, when used in a D3 or D4.

With a Traxide setup, you also have the advantage of Back-Discharging, which allows the Auxiliary Battery to help to keep your Cranking Battery in a higher state of charge. Something no other dual battery system does.

The Load Sharing operation of a Traxide Isolator means you halve the work load of your batteries. Both while charging and while discharging. And because of the lower currents required, there is an additional benefit of helping to extend the operating lifespan of both batteries.

The new generation SC80 and DT90 isolators also have Reverse-Charging, allowing you to charge and maintain both batteries with a battery charger or solar, no matter which battery you connect the charging source to, something you can't do with a DC/DC device.

The Sharing of both the load and the charging is also particularly useful if you are free camping with a camper trailer or caravan. Allowing for much longer stays between charges.

Originally Posted by GregMilner

That all sounds very sensible. After considering all comments and advice, I've revised my 'must have' list.

1) I'll stick with a RWC and long range tank.
2) brake controller and Anderson plug for obvious reasons.
3) Safari snorkel - for peace of mind in Lichfield etc.
4) IID tool
5) UHF.
6) Maxxis LTs - 6 ordered.
7) compressor plate

The others - maybe, maybe not. Would prefer not to have a bullbar if possible. We try to avoid early morning/late afternoon travel too. And I could do with spending the $3K elsewhere. Llams - not convinced. Traxide - not convinced for earlier stated reasons. Sliders - definitely not. Mitch hitch... will see how the OEM one goes first. Have thought about stone stompers, might be a good idea. Diff breathers? Probably not, I think the OEM ones on the transmission and diffs should be adequate.

If you are planning on having a fridge in the car, then I would suggest a DBS, which one you choose is a personal thing, I would recommend the Traxide if you do decide though, it is the only one I would buy for a D3/4/RRS and so on, it is far superior to the DC/DC device, I know cause I've had both, DC/DC units don't get the battery up to their max charge rate, well mine didn't that I had in the camper.

LLAMS are a must for two wheel track type roads, and for when you need more clearence and still want to go over 50kph, especially if you're towing, the car does lower a lot more when it bounces hitting bumps in the road, if there is anything hidden in the crown of the two wheel track and you hit it, and it's happened to me quite a few times when I forgotten to raise the car.

You won't need diff breathers, the standard ones are fine.

The standard D4 hitch is fine, just get a higher tounge to keep the van up higher if it needs it.

Sliders are not neccessary either unless you're rock crawling.

As for the bullbar, well another personal thing also, don't fit one if you don't want one, for me it was piece of mind, I've only had one animal strike and it was in the D4, the bullbar paid for itself right at that moment at only our 4th day of our 4 week trip, our bullbar was only $1800 fitted, they have gone up a lot

Your wish list is fine as far as I can see, apart from the LLAMS and DBS, of coarse they can be gotten around by keeping below 50 in offroad mode and not having a fridge in the car.

Thank you for that Tim, it explains a lot. We don't ever leave the fridge running in the car...when we camp, we take it out and run it alongside the camper as a freezer, and use the Waeco in the camper as a fridge. So I'm not quite clear on why we need a DBS in the car under those circumstances?

The camper is charged from 250w solar panels (2 X 110amp batteries) which also charge the portable Engel battery. Am I missing something?

Greg

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Hi Greg and not sure what you mean but here is some info that may be of use to you

With more than 4,000 D3s and D4s equipped with my DBS. Both here and around the world, they are well and truely tested and here is a comparison with other types of DBS.

this is also for other D3 and D4 owners who are looking at fitting some form of dual battery system to their Discos, but do not fully understand how different systems actually work and which give the best all round performance.

For those still trying to sort out fact from advertising fiction, the following should help.

The first problem most people have when trying to determine what is the best system for their needs, is the amount of misinformation that is used to market many of the products used to set up a dual battery system.

A perfect example of deliberate misinformation is the advertising hype used to sell DC/DC devices. It is not just misinformation but also the lack of full disclosure that results in people ending up with an over priced but under performing dual battery system.

There are plenty of sellers claiming that an alternator will not fully charge a battery but then claim that a DC/DC device "CAN" fully charge a battery, and it is this type of claim, that makes it sound like you need a DC/DC device because it can do what an alternator "ALLEGEDLY" can not do.

While the claim that a DC/DC device "CAN" fully charge a battery, is correct, but unless the potential buyer is aware of what is actually required to fully charge a LOW 12v battery, they then are lead to believe that a DC/DC device will do a batter job than an alternator can.

Reality is that the only time alternators can not fully charge batteries, is when the vehicle is not driven long enough to allow the alternator to do what it is designed to do.

This is where the advertising misinformation comes in.

The same short driving that prevents an alternator from from fully charging a battery will have at least the same effect when charging with a DC/DC device and in many cases when charging a low battery with a DC/DC, the battery will actually ends up being in a lower state of charge at the end of a short drive than what it would have been had it been charge by the alternator.

Here is a real world example of what the misinformation can lead to.

If you have an Optima D34, a 55Ah auxiliary battery, in a low state of charge, a combination of the high operating voltage and the high current from the D3 and D4 alternator, you can charge the Optima from 0% SoC ( 10.5v ) to well over 95% in under an hours drive.

Using a 40 amp DC/DC device, it will take around 90 minutes to achieve that same level of charge and using a 20 amp DC/DC device will take close to 3 hours, to do what your alternator can do in under an hour.

Furthermore, with a DC/DC setup, you have 45Ah available to power your accessories, but with a Traxide DBS, you have 90Ah available. NOTE this extra usable battery capacity is available with out the need to add another battery, there is no additional weight or lose of space, as would be needed to get the same amount of usable battery capacity when using a DC/DC device or any other VSR type isolator.

So you need to do your homework before outlaying your hard earned cash.

Here are some other comparisons between Traxide DBS performance and that of other types of DBS setups, when used in a D3 or D4.

With a Traxide setup, you also have the advantage of Back-Discharging, which allows the Auxiliary Battery to help to keep your Cranking Battery in a higher state of charge. Something no other dual battery system does.

The Load Sharing operation of a Traxide Isolator means you halve the work load of your batteries. Both while charging and while discharging. And because of the lower currents required, there is an additional benefit of helping to extend the operating lifespan of both batteries.

The new generation SC80 and DT90 isolators also have Reverse-Charging, allowing you to charge and maintain both batteries with a battery charger or solar, no matter which battery you connect the charging source to, something you can't do with a DC/DC device.

The Sharing of both the load and the charging is also particularly useful if you are free camping with a camper trailer or caravan. Allowing for much longer stays between charges.