RRS 3.0 blowing smoke (lots of it)

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Originally Posted by Celtoid

I'm certain there is a Jag sedan running around with a variant of the same engine with twin turbo's. It produces more power and torque.

However, as previously stated this outcome was part of a design by LR/Jag engineers, so all considerations had been taken into account.

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...and the jag wouldn't see flat maggot for very long before it ran out of road or hit the speed limiter with that engine:eek:

Dougal is correct about working them hard, engine capacities are getting smaller, yet outputs are getting higher, and vehicles heavier. Obviously they aren't designing for longevity here...EGT gauges are very important, we tested a (non chipped) ZD30 Auto Pootrol (after we fitted the new engine at 103,000km) with an upstream Pyro and saw 800Degrees up a short hill WITHOUT his 18 foot caravan attached....no idea how stratospheric his temps were before the old engine blew, he was towing at 95 into a headwind for 4 hours....


JC

One of the AULRO members is associated somehow with 'Chip It' add on performance chip.
They have a guage which shows Exhaust Gas Temperatures as you are driving.
Good idea I think.

Cheers, Craig

Caution is always advisable when increasing the std output of any engine. It is true however, that quite a few modern European engines are designed for higher outputs than the initial production vehicle produces. This is to provide a shorter development cycle to the periodic "improved" outputs over the life-cycle of the motor, to maintain competitiveness.

Note that the 3.0 ltr has already gained 10KW over the original output, and the Supercharged 5 ltr V8 is rumoured to put out 600bhp prior to being detuned in both the LR and Jag factories.

Without knowing the design specs for the failure envelope of the engine, it's difficult to say that X remap with Y additional output is safe, but with proper monitoring and a conservative approach, I think these engines can realistically be remapped.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

Caution is always advisable when increasing the std output of any engine. It is true however, that quite a few modern European engines are designed for higher outputs than the initial production vehicle produces. This is to provide a shorter development cycle to the periodic "improved" outputs over the life-cycle of the motor, to maintain competitiveness.

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The core engine yes. But components like turbochargers are matched for the delivered output. The only way to know there is extra capacity in a turbocharger is to measure the pressures in and out and plot it out on a compressor map. Compressor maps for OEM turbos are usually unavailable to the public.

Generally through an engines lifecycle as power increases the compression ratio drops, the turbochargers change and the manifolds and heads have been known to be redesigned with the lessons learnt from the earlier, lower power, engines.

But we are specifically talking about the current crop of LR engines. There has been no redesign of any (major) components in the 3.0 or the 5.0 SC since their introduction. I'm reasonably confident that a well-designed remap or retune (via pulley wheels, exhaust etc) would be safe in these particular motors. You may draw a differnet personal conclusion - but we're all guessing really, as we don't know what the engine and components are designed for. In my case, I'm happy to concede to the experience of the major British tuners who seem to pull reasonable increases out of these engines whilst remaining durable.

I've been pretty careful in what I pick over the last 7 years, and haven't had a problem with such devices. Others have experienced different things.

Cheers,

Gordon

My SIL works for a major engine ancilliary manufacturer that makes alternators, starter motors etc for motor vehicles as one of its activities. During testing, temperature sensors are placed in the engine bay to make sure the various temperatures don't exceed the vehicle manufacturer's stated maximum temperatures in which the ancilliaries are required to operate. The high output requirements of current-day alternators can mean they will sometimes be operating close to their maximum temperature. Depending on prevailing enviromental conditions, increasing power output without increasing cooling system capacity has the potential to increase engine bay temperatures beyond the design capacity of some equipment. Just because an engine in a higher state of tune is fitted to some other vehicle, the cooling system capacity and engine bay design to remove hot air is not necessarily the same.

SIL's Risk and Reliability Engineering ,welcome to my world Graeme !I cant work out what dougal is saying either ,the real worlds nothing like that..Just so happens ,I was just talking/Skypng to Richard Ledger, head of Turbo Technics turbo rebuilding facility in the UK whom have the exclusive licence to rebuild all turbo's'for Landrover.
Very interesting to talk to.They ,the rebuilders are just coming to grips with elctronic actuation system.(the reason you have to buy the whole turbo and controller when all that is wrong is the stepper motor !)

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

But we are specifically talking about the current crop of LR engines. There has been no redesign of any (major) components in the 3.0 or the 5.0 SC since their introduction. I'm reasonably confident that a well-designed remap or retune (via pulley wheels, exhaust etc) would be safe in these particular motors. You may draw a differnet personal conclusion - but we're all guessing really, as we don't know what the engine and components are designed for. In my case, I'm happy to concede to the experience of the major British tuners who seem to pull reasonable increases out of these engines whilst remaining durable.

I've been pretty careful in what I pick over the last 7 years, and haven't had a problem with such devices. Others have experienced different things.

Cheers,

Gordon

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I'm not talking about the SC petrol engines, I don't have any interest in those. I'm talking specifically about the turbocharged diesels.

My point is, the guys who are remapping these do not have the knowledge to make the call that their modifications are safe. They are simply putting the risk on the customer and using them as their beta-testers. This is fine as long as the customer knows this.

Ask your remappers what the torque limits for the gearbox is? Expect a blank stare.
Ask your remappers how much extra heat can be rejected through the intercoolers and radiators on a 35C day without putting the entire engine-bay over it's maximum intended temperature?
Ask them what the pressure ratio and surge/choke limits of the turbochargers are.

The ~4% landrover has increased the power on the 3.0 TDV6 isn't comparable to the increases sold by remappers. Nor are solutions which work in the UK (where it's flat and cold) directly applicable world-wide.

My point is, there are real and significant risks involved in getting a modern diesel vehicle remapped. The main ones are failure of turbochargers and gearboxes, which are rather expensive. Know those risks before spending your money.

Dealer warranty does not cover aftermarket tunes, it is very easy for a clued up dealer to check your ECU not only to see if the current program matches, but some ECU's tell them how many read/writes have been undertaken.

Hmm ,lots of conjecture !
GGhaggis,how about you bring your RRS 3 Litre down to the Kwinana Motorplex on a "Whoop ass Wednesday" We can set up either yours or mine Torque plus/OBD2 readers and map exactly the times/speeds on regarding boost/fuel pressures.The accel / braking generated G's also works spot on (and with the GPS check the 60ft/1000Ft )What do the manufacturers claim for a 1/4 mile time for a D4 and a RRS ?
The vehicles will be weighed accurately before and after testing
The point should be how well against a known standard does your vehicle perform,not necessarily what difference do performance modification make.(probably establish 2 Launch strategies ,eg sport and and standard drive)
Be good to Have "DORKO" there as well as he has been down the Chip it path.
MOROSO says at 2.5 Ton and 253HP = 17.14 @ 78.5 MPH ,at 3 ton 18.22 73.9mph

My query with a re-map or chip, is how much time would you spend over and above the engines recommended parameters.

For instance, if you are towing (or not) at 100 Kph, the re-map / chip would rarely be used. It would only be for that burst when you are overtaking etc I would imagine.

Providing that you aren't on boost the whole time, I can't see that the extra power / torque would do any damage, especially given that the engine is de-tuned to begin with.

Cheers, Craig