Disappointed in the D5 / waiting for the Defender

What has typically been of interest to me in a vehicle is the fundamentals; how stiff the chassis/monocoque is, the NVH, what the power and torque to weight is, the nature of the power delivery, interior space and comfort, body styling, fuel economy, off road ability, load carrying, value for money, etc. These in my view are what sets cars apart. The electrickery expansion hasnt won me over at all, but more than that, they are designing cars in ways that reduce the control of the driver, and that rubs me the wrong way something savage.

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Originally Posted by rammypluge

Severed a few wires without realising, car behaved strange, windows wouldnt go up, a variety of dash warning lights, 60 trillion fuses to check, numerous battery disconnects, etc. Up to three mechanics, 2 days of headscratching, etc. So not worth it.

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60 seconds with a scan tool and you’d have known the bus was damaged... would have saved 2 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes.

[emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

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Originally Posted by Tombie

60 seconds with a scan tool and you’d have known the bus was damaged... would have saved 2 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes.

[emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

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If you know what a BUS is and how to fix it or ignore it.

When the Range Rover first appeared, the series owners were saying things like said in this thread. I spoke to Mal Storey before he sold up and said he wouldn’t rely on anything JLR after 1988. The new Defender 200tdi was rubbish, as was the 5 speed Range Rover. Interesting perspectives in the context of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

60 seconds with a scan tool and you’d have known the bus was damaged... would have saved 2 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes.

[emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

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Dunno, we quickly realised what wires were severed and rejoined them, but it still didnt work. I had checked the 60 trillion fuses and all seemed okay. So we were looking for other solutions, thinking of all those obscure possibilities, whether the car needed to relearn things, whether wires needed to have a certain resistance which would have been changed, etc. After much headscratching another check of the 60 trillion fuses found one popped. Replaced that and it ran but with almost a dash full of warnings and still windows not working properly. A scan tool cleared a few codes. Numerous restarts cleared the rest. So hard to believe they would design a system so vulnerable.

The wires were for the transmission. What have they got to do with the electric windows, airbag warning light, etc?

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Originally Posted by rammypluge

Dunno, we quickly realised what wires were severed and rejoined them, but it still didnt work. I had checked the 60 trillion fuses and all seemed okay. So we were looking for other solutions, thinking of all those obscure possibilities, whether the car needed to relearn things, whether wires needed to have a certain resistance which would have been changed, etc. After much headscratching another check of the 60 trillion fuses found one popped. Replaced that and it ran but with almost a dash full of warnings and still windows not working properly. A scan tool cleared a few codes. Numerous restarts cleared the rest. So hard to believe they would design a system so vulnerable.

The wires were for the transmission. What have they got to do with the electric windows, airbag warning light, etc?

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Very good questions. I often find that certain non-Luddites (software designers for example) complicate things unnecessry (because to them it's not complicated - even logical) ...if your transmission fails you want your windows down? Beats me!

I wonder how many LR designers have lived for years in remote areas?

Shows neither of you understand how it works...

Transmission failing wouldn’t stop windows..
Broken wires did..

Is it all that different to an earth point failing and shutting down a vehicle? Not really..

What Can bus does do is un-complicate wiring. A single circuit can carry a lot of info and only a twisted pair is needed.
Easy to tap into as well, just hook in on the High and low line and you’re halfway there.

So your failure was a wire or 2 and a fuse.. seems very old school...


You claim IT people get it, but what about those who don’t get engines, gearboxes etc in general - this and many other forums are full of those types... they can’t fix a matchbox car , let alone a real vehicle.

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Originally Posted by Zeros

I wonder how many LR designers have lived for years in remote areas?

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Probably as many Germans, Japanese and Koreans....

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Originally Posted by Tombie

Shows neither of you understand how it works...

Transmission failing wouldn’t stop windows..
Broken wires did..

Is it all that different to an earth point failing and shutting down a vehicle? Not really..

What Can bus does do is un-complicate wiring. A single circuit can carry a lot of info and only a twisted pair is needed.
Easy to tap into as well, just hook in on the High and low line and you’re halfway there.

So your failure was a wire or 2 and a fuse.. seems very old school...


You claim IT people get it, but what about those who don’t get engines, gearboxes etc in general - this and many other forums are full of those types... they can’t fix a matchbox car , let alone a real vehicle.

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Spot on Tombie, we're not all mechanical, electrical or computer engineers. Some of us (many on AULRO) learn the basics because we enjoy it or need to, but we often rely on others who are experts.

...the issues are twofold:

1. Land Rovers are no longer built with field maintainability in mind. So not only is it more difficult to learn to do so, often it would be impossible due to the way vehicles are put together now. The tactics of the company is actually all about the customer returning to LR for all servicing, no public access to vehicle log books is just the start.... Modern vehicles may be more reliable, but they are are also far more complex, which means the scope of knowledge required to remedy a failure out bush has increased massively.

2. The professional expertise required to maintain such complex machines is now highly concentrated in city centres. Combine that with a significant reduction of regional LR service centres and the bizarre cultural/mechanical prejudice towards Land Rovers in remote areas of our vast continent and it's difficult for the majority of us whose expertise lays in fields of endeavour other than mechanical / electrical engineering to feel confident that their machine will reliably make the arduous journey. .

Thanks for beginning to explain Can-bus...

That's what this great forum is all about. Sharing all kinds of knowledge with each other, because we all have a lot to share and a lot to learn about all aspects of Land Rover ownership.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Zeros

Spot on Tombie, we're not all mechanical, electrical or computer engineers. Some of us (many on AULRO) learn the basics because we enjoy it or need to, but we often rely on others who are experts.

...the issues are twofold:

1. Land Rovers are no longer built with field maintainability in mind. So not only is it more difficult to learn to do so, often it would be impossible due to the way vehicles are put together now. The tactics of the company is actually all about the customer returning to LR for all servicing, no public access to vehicle log books is just the start.... Modern vehicles may be more reliable, but they are are also far more complex, which means the scope of knowledge required to remedy a failure out bush has increased massively.

2. The professional expertise required to maintain such complex machines is now highly concentrated in city centres. Combine that with a significant reduction of regional LR service centres and the bizarre cultural/mechanical prejudice towards Land Rovers in remote areas of our vast continent and it's difficult for the majority of us whose expertise lays in fields of endeavour other than mechanical / electrical engineering to feel confident that their machine will reliably make the arduous journey. .

Thanks for beginning to explain Can-bus...

That's what this great forum is all about. Sharing all kinds of knowledge with each other, because we all have a lot to share and a lot to learn about all aspects of Land Rover ownership.

Cheers

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I struggle to see the difference between:
- the need for specialised knowledge and tools to change out a collapsed wheelbearing, and
- the need for specialised knowledge and tools to change out almost any of those newfangled electronic sensors

Yet the view (not necessarily your's specifically Zeros, just the sentiment generally) is that the former falls into the grouping "designed for field maintenance" and the latter falls into the grouping "complicated and scary - not field servicable".

Holders of that generalised and rather luddite view need to reflect on when they had to tell a child that, if only they looked, they'd see there are no scary monsters in the dark under the bed. Failing that a ludderectomy may work.

Put differently:
- I can swap out/replace my Defender's engine ECU in 5 minutes, with one screwdriver and one spanner (both tools optional, improvisation possible). No loss of skin on knuckles, no burned fingers, no grease/oil on hands and 2 minute washup afterwards.
- I had to learn how to do the job. Bit of reading here and manuals. Bit of guidance from BAS. I got better/faster after every time I did it.
- I suspect that replacing many of the other sensors that would be lumped by luddites into the "not designed for field/user servicablilty" would be just as "hard" to manage.

Compare that to a simple job any luddite would say is easy, old school, stuff: Changing the oil in the transfer case:
- dead easy right? Pull the fill plug. Pull the drain plug. replace the drain plug. Fill to the level of the fill hole. replace the fill plug.
- just need a spanner and maybe a hand pump. washup also easy.
- (of course if you did the above on a TDCi you screwed up, overfilled)