Thread: Won’t be retro...

Comparing the Baja 1000 vehicles to working offroad vehicles is comparing apples to oranges. The most obvious difference is load carrying capacity. The Baja vehicles are designed to carry a driver, fuel and perhaps observer, and to be driven as fast as possible and last until the end of the race without something ctical breaking. A working offroad vehicle will be driving on similar terrain, but mostly winning races is not a criterion. What is needed is something that can carry 1000kg or more reliably, with minimal driving skill and maintenance, and won't coast the earth. What works for one is not necessarily going to work for the other.

Originally Posted by Arapiles

(like now - why does the Tesla S have such a long bonnet? The electric motor doesn't need all that space, it's just modelled on what's required for an ICE).

Same reason F1 cars have a long nose out the front. Crumple zone.

Most of the ridiculous aesthetics on cars these days is driven by a combination of safety (physical size and structure between the occupants and outside world) and fuel economy (tiny stupid little windows to limit solar ingress and reduce the energy consumed by the A/C). So it's ugly, harder to drive and with worse visibility, but more likely (in theory) to keep me alive.

That's why I drive a 30 year old Volvo. The other car is my crumple zone.

Volvos have pretty long bonnets.

Originally Posted by scarry

The single cab was five star rated in 2016,as an example

To rate a vehicle as five star today that vehicle may not comply.

The rumours are that things are going to change so the rating in 2016 will last for, say, 6 yrs.

After that if the same model is available,it may lose its 5 star rating,unless it is modified to suit the latest 5 star rating,which could mean huge changes to the vehicle.

FWIW,i think the D4 was never tested,but the D3 was 4 star,in its day.

Interesting thank you I was just thinking about that today.

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

It was interesting to see a reference to a Troop carrier style Defender in that LRA story a couple of pages back. First time I've seen that.
As for live axles vs independent, I've seen plenty of dual cab utes with independent front ends out there.
Most mining roads are well graded.

Could just be the reporters opinion

What Land Rover has over the competitors is the load carrying, towing and safety combo of the airbag suspension system.

Originally Posted by JDNSW

Comparing the Baja 1000 vehicles to working offroad vehicles is comparing apples to oranges. The most obvious difference is load carrying capacity. The Baja vehicles are designed to carry a driver, fuel and perhaps observer, and to be driven as fast as possible and last until the end of the race without something ctical breaking. A working offroad vehicle will be driving on similar terrain, but mostly winning races is not a criterion. What is needed is something that can carry 1000kg or more reliably, with minimal driving skill and maintenance, and won't coast the earth. What works for one is not necessarily going to work for the other.

Bit like a D5?

Originally Posted by BradC

Same reason F1 cars have a long nose out the front. Crumple zone.

Well, there's plenty of semi-bonnet and one box vans around that meet ADRs so I'd suggest that the long bonnet isn't necessary. My point is that once electric cars become more common their shapes may change away from the shape/styling dictated by having a big lump of an ICE up front.

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

....
As for live axles vs independent, I've seen plenty of dual cab utes with independent front ends out there.
Most mining roads are well graded.

And this is the point. most roads where they will 'abuse' their suspensions more will be well graded, with some occasional rough stuff.

the reference to the Baja is perfectly well suited to the analogy, as a 'lightweight' vehicle at speed will have similar forces on it's suspension to a heavily laden medium weight vehicle.

same for the F1 analogy. F1 cars come in at about 600kg, add their downforce to the suspensions systems and they need to cope with about 5-10ton. add in the really fast bend they negotiate and it'll be > 10t! ... for a spindly 100 gram plastic suspension arm to cope with!
From memory an F1 car can pull up to about 10G laterally(eg. at Turkey GP).
if their mass is about 600kg, 10g lateral = at least 6t side loading alone! once again from the flimsy feeling cf tubes they use.

I have cf tripods(for camera) they feel flimsy, plasicky. cheap crap compared to what the F1 guys use too. But try to bend it, or bash something with it. Immensely strong and rigid.
Same with titanium. feels plasticky almost zero weight. I still have the rod that came out of my leg 20+ years ago .. but it's strength is unbelievable!

Anyhow, lightweight prodcts under massive duress produce the same differences in forces and loadings, just a different way to do it.

As for really heavy duty independent suspensions .. look at the US Army's latest vehicles. like the Oshkosh. Bombproof no less. all independent suspensions.
I think made by Meritor.
I've only seen one independent suspension assembly personally. Had to pick it up actually.
Meritor have a depot here in Laverton(Melb, not the WA one!!). picked up sent to QLD. Dunno where, we sent it to our QLD depot and they sent it to some place up there.
I just did the pickup part down here to our depot.
This was maybe 5-6 years back when I worked for a Freight Co.

If independent suspension is good enough for military 5T trucks .. you don't reckon it's good enough for miners and farmers?
Like I said .. it's down to cost. How much are they prepared to pay for it?

truck industry slowly came around to airbag suspension, from the annoyances of cart springs. Again it was a cost factor, nothing to do with durability(except the early years of airbags).
Now, try to find a heavy truck that doesn't use air springs at the rear, and the cart spring trailers are all going to sims metal nowadays.
Schmitz, trailer manufactuer have had independent sprung trailers for years now.. and with disk brakes too! We just don't see many here due to cost.
I think Linfox are using more and more. At my old work, we had one subbie using one(second hand), I never got to tow it.

We see more and more trailers/campers coming out with independent suspension too.
I don't doubt that one day in the not too distant future, it'll be the norm, rather than the exception.

There's no reason not to think this won't happen to heavy load vehicles either. No reason for the independent suspension of the new defer to be an issue.
Just imagine the old timers, back in the day, that all arked up a fuss when the RRC came to town, and they all said coil springs .. not going to cut it for a 4WD vehicle.
All changed when the GQ Patrol went all coils?
Fact was that Unimog legitimised coil springs in off roaders decades prior to the RRC, and in heavy vehicles no less.


But it seems that the only way to make something legit is when Nissyota make it .. only then is it 'acceptable'