Thread: The New Defender

I think some may be missing the key issue here. It's not about purchase price, well at least to me anyway. It's all about how much it costs to make an LC200 a D4 or now a Defender. My experience over 15 years and 10 Toyota 4WD is that cost is around $17,000 and probably more.

So when I look at that value equation even a HSE starts to look attractive

Quite frankly I have never worried about service coverage in the last 4.5 years despite taking our D4 to some pretty remote places with our AOR Q+ on the back and with an average duty cycle of 18,000km per year with most of that outback travel.

I have been a quiet and very patient and polite observer of these discussions since the get go and got a great deal of benefit from the D4 thread. Firstly in giving me the confidence to make the purchase and secondly to maintain it correctly for the way we use it. As well the balanced and professional discussion has been, in most part, exemplorary.

We will have our SE quoted in detail from the dealer tomorrow. I have the final quote from my long term, like 20 years of fleet purchasing Toyota dealer for an LC200. My assessment will be made on by using heart, head and cashflow. NOT residual as my personal 4WD are exactly that

I am tempted to wait until the 130 but am quite comfortable to move now as well. So I do appreciate there are widely varying views and expectations around new Defender. What I don't get or appreciate is the way some folk have pretty much attacked others views since the get go. Seems to me that tolerance of others needs and views has been lost to a degree, sadly.

So whilst I have been a happy participant in this forum for around five year now I have taken the decision not to renew my membership on renewal as I can no longer see the value it offered me so long ago

Rob

Rob[/QUOTE""]What I don't get or appreciate is the way some folk have pretty much attacked others views since the get go. Seems to me that tolerance of others needs and views has been lost to a degree, sadly.

So whilst I have been a happy participant in this forum for around five year now I have taken the decision not to renew my membership on renewal as I can no longer see the value it offered me so long ago""

Whilst I agree one must also appreciate that a forum is simply a place for discussing difference in opinion. It this opinion that makes it interesting, the reason we all come back to revisit threads and the ongoing discussion. This is great and there is an art to doing it tastefully. In saying that on the rare occasion some, maybe even myself need to be enlightened or further educated.
You yourself just said you got great info from the d4 forum, now your choosing to leave a community that's helped you. Best thing you can do is hang around and help educate those that don't have the same knowledge and pass on what you've learned. It's this cycle that keep forums healthy. Recycle your knowledge and everyone wins.
Anyway, your decision but if you dio decide not to renew it then all the best mate

Originally Posted by 1nando

Buyers base "value" on many different criteria. For example, cargo size, seating, tech gear, safety, etc then that value is cross checked against things like reliabilty, serviceability, warranty etc. "Value" is the overall package, at least to me. I'll give you an example: G professional. Here you have a HD vehcile similar to a defender only built tougher, with a great engine and trusted by our military yet it doesn't sell. Why? Because it's trying to crack a market dominated by Toyota and the price point is completely ridiculous. If the G was $80k they would sell many many more units. It would take sales away from Toyota 70 series, jeep rubicon, and probably a few others, but no one wants to pay $110k for it because it's hard to find the "Value" proposition.

LR has a terrible reliabilty reputation, as much as some on here might disagree with that fact it's actually true and LR has no one to blame but themselves! They are not on the 15 most reliable vehicle manufacturers list in Australia, in fact john cadogan showed a list where they were in the top 15 worst! New Car Reliability | 2019 Brand Ratings – Canstar Blue

You can argue all you like but this is factored in when people are looking at the "Value" proposition of a vehicle, reliabilty and reputation.

A top speced cruiser at 120k will be bought every day of the week over a well speced 110 at $130k. Why? Simply because Toyota has the reputation for reliabilty, that's why the LC is the number one selling large SUV in that segment in most markets except the middle East and USA where it is beaten by the y62/ Armada. That reputation is worth gold! Will your average mum and dad buy a $130k LR that has a reputation for breaking down and then take it out bush, tow? No! Why? Because every other car out bush is a Toyota, so they assume that's what they need to buy and since there's no value in the 130k defender they go straight to the LC. Again I'm not a Toyota fan, but the sales speak for themselves.

Also a little twin turbo 2ltr diesel ain't going to attract or win over any Toyota or Nissan fans. Again you'll argue this point but I'm just highlighting peoples perception and we all know what our mates think of LR!

The reliability argument isn't a thing anymore ill explain why and it may surprise some that haven't seen this posted before.

Last time i checked JLR have improved reliability 180% over last 20years and most improved overall over last year in the states where limited toyota 4x4 models are sold(infact last time i checked the only similar toyota they sell is a petrol LC200).

The whole industry has improved to a point where there are only a few problems per year between the list after 3 years of ownership. Imo its almost like the top 20 airlines, they are not in any particular order as they are all considered as safe as each other. Landrover owners of 2016 vehicles are only reporting 2 problems and Toyota 1(it seems largely off the back of corolla and prius, camry, avalon, rav4 etc) over 12 months after 3 years of ownership.
It is reported also most issues being infotainment related, which admittedly in 2016 was not LRs strongpoint. Would love to see the reliability comparison based only on US LR 4x4s models and US Landcruiser models, but even then it wouldn't be fair due to the lack of diesels

In the UK Landrover reliability is pretty much on par with Toyota where petrol and diesel etc Toyota 4x4 models are sold in a very similar way to AU (fair comparison)
Landrover 2016 approx 1.42 problems over 12 months after 3 years and Toyota 1.34 (absolutely nothing between them in reliability)

In AU Toyota have been far from the pinnacle of reliability over the last few years, imo LR on the other hand has done really well the last few years avoiding any mass market issues.

I mention Toyota not to badmouth, rather becuase they are usually referred to as some holy grail of reliability and a benchmark. They are a great thing and if you own one great!

The quality and extensive testing so far I have seen in the new defender will imo keep this upwards reliabilty trend going, think IP67, strongest axles yet, D7x, 3x stronger frame, SOTA allowing issues to be nipped in the bud as soon as they are aware, shocks that adapt to heat to avoid failure.

Times have changed as anyone with a newish JLR vehicle will attest to, quality and reliability are as good as could be expected for the vehicle you actually get, which when you have a vehicle that can do much more than its competitors is much harder to achieve.

This all has taken me a very long time to get my head around over the last year but im glad i did, as LRs reliability is much better than many make out and for the last couple of decades has been getting better and better

Sources jdpower 2019 us/uk

Originally Posted by blackrangie

The reliability argument isn't a thing anymore ill explain why and it may surprise some that haven't seen this posted before.

Last time i checked JLR have improved reliability 180% over last 20years and most improved overall over last year in the states where limited toyota 4x4 models are sold(infact last time i checked the only similar toyota they sell is a petrol LC200).

The whole industry has improved to a point where there are only a few problems per year between the list after 3 years of ownership. Imo its almost like the top 20 airlines, they are not in any particular order as they are all considered as safe as each other. Landrover owners of 2016 vehicles are only reporting 2 problems and Toyota 1(it seems largely off the back of corolla and prius, camry, avalon, rav4 etc) over 12 months after 3 years of ownership.
It is reported also most issues being infotainment related, which admittedly in 2016 was not LRs strongpoint. Would love to see the reliability comparison based only on US LR 4x4s models and US Landcruiser models, but even then it wouldn't be fair due to the lack of diesels

In the UK Landrover reliability is pretty much on par with Toyota where petrol and diesel etc Toyota 4x4 models are sold in a very similar way to AU (fair comparison)
Landrover 2016 approx 1.42 problems over 12 months after 3 years and Toyota 1.34 (absolutely nothing between them in reliability)

In AU Toyota have been far from the pinnacle of reliability over the last few years, imo LR on the other hand has done really well the last few years avoiding any mass market issues.

I mention Toyota not to badmouth, rather becuase they are usually referred to as some holy grail of reliability and a benchmark. They are a great thing and if you own one great!

The quality and extensive testing so far I have seen in the new defender will imo keep this upwards reliabilty trend going, think IP67, strongest axles yet, D7x, 3x stronger frame, SOTA allowing issues to be nipped in the bud as soon as they are aware, shocks that adapt to heat to avoid failure.

Times have changed as anyone with a newish JLR vehicle will attest to, quality and reliability are as good as could be expected for the vehicle you actually get, which when you have a vehicle that can do much more than its competitors is much harder to achieve.

This all has taken me a very long time to get my head around over the last year but im glad i did, as LRs reliability is much better than many make out and for the last couple of decades has been getting better and better

Sources jdpower 2019 us/uk

"I mention Toyota not to badmouth, rather becuase they are usually referred to as some holy grail of reliability and a benchmark."

That's the point I'm making. I'm not a Toyota fan, but it's peoples perception that I'm talking about. People perceive Toyota to be the best and at a elevated price point people will invest their hard earned on the perception.

Ill give you another example. The y62 TiL is equivalent to a LC diesel 200 Sahara on specs, in fact you get more with the 62 and it's $30k cheaper. John cadogan recently in one of his infinity/ nissan rants mentioned that the y62 is an excellent vehicle (bullet proof were the words he used) and that it would take 600,000kms of driving before the 200 was a more cost effective option. So why does the 200 outsell the y62 10-1?

Well the answer is that people have a perception that 4wds have to be diesel to be any good. That diesels fuel economy will pay itself off; it will at a point but 600,000kms is a lot of driving and years of ownership.

That's not me talking crap, that's a fact! People believe a petrol simply can't do the job as well. Now I don't know about you but I sell my cars at the end of every lease, somewhere around 120-150,000kms..........The y62 represents the better value...... yet the sheep still buy the cruiser.

World wide people believe in the Toyota badge, the legacy of reliable motoring, pricing a vehicle on par or above it in a very similar segment is ridiculous in my view and a recipe for poor sales.

I admire your passion for this new defender, I share it with you; just not at $130k + for a reasonably speced 110. Yeah I could get a cheaper utilitarian one and the Mrs would divorce me...... she loves putting her feet up on the dash in the 62 on long trips and enjoying the comforts. A cheaper 110 with less niceties would be a step backwards in her eyes. Plus the kids would be like : "you paid $30k more for this new defender and it has half the space of the patrol?". I could justify the purchase at $100k, I can't over that I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by Tombie

Leasing the new Defender “X” will only cost me $200 a fortnight more than the D4 did.

You need to update your signature Tombie

BR
Lots of words and then you supply two graphs that clearly show Landrover are classified as below average (well below) on dependability.
Words are cheap
A three year warranty and in 2019 still below average reliability is a huge negative “value” point


This thing will be more expensive
Have less load space with a smaller engine
And then it is Less reliable and shorter warranty than
It’s competitors

It’s not possible to spin it any other way?

They took the heritage of a defender and sold it for a cup of Luxo SUV soup which won’t even sell that well!!!

Cest la vie - the Aus market is largely irrelevant to JLR so they will care even less than full size 4x4 wagon drivers do!

S

...what most are forgetting here is that Land Rover is perceived as a luxury elitist brand. That’s what they have fostered. The majority of Australians do not perceive themselves as elitist. Despite price similarities, histories of reliability, service networks, warranties, whatever...most Australians want a vehicle that makes them feel comfortable in their social sphere, with they’re mates.

...some of my friends think my Defender is elitist! Because it’s ‘different’. Despite it costing 2/3 of their Toyota’s! It’s just perception.

Defenders are unique. ...It’s actually part of what makes owning a Defender enjoyable, quite apart from Defenders simply being better. ...and really that’s just for those of us in the know. Who cares if the sheep ‘think’ theirs are better? 200 series / Y62’s are too big, fat and ugly. 70 series too outmoded. All too thirsty. ...but each too their own.

I’m here because I think Defenders are the best. It’s why I own one. Simple.

OK mod hat on now.

We are done with this conversation now.

Discussing other brands (and the old Defender) in the context of the New Defender has been done to death over the last 18 months. You've all said your piece numerous times.

Please bring it back on topic.