Thread: 86" springs and bushes

Originally Posted by JDNSW

<snip>... 80" Series 1 (and I think only to 1950 or 51) used a Tracta joint, but when they changed from full time to part time four wheel drive, the joint was changed to a cross and bearing type joint the same as the ones on the prop shafts, and I think, the same size, but without seals or grease ways. ...<snip>
John

John
The change from tracta joints happened at the change in wheelbase to 86" (end of 1953 production) not the change to selectable 2WD 4WD (early in 1951 production).
Diana

Originally Posted by JDNSW

I am not familiar with Jeeps, nor with Dana axles, but I suspect that they use a Rzeppa type CV U-joint - which is NOT what is used in any Series Landrovers except the Stage 1 Series 3 V8 & Isuzu. 80" Series 1 (and I think only to 1950 or 51) used a Tracta joint, but when they changed from full time to part time four wheel drive, the joint was changed to a cross and bearing type joint the same as the ones on the prop shafts, and I think, the same size, but without seals or grease ways. Even if the swivel is filled with grease, the joints are not necessarily shot, as they will have been unloaded most of the time, but the presence of grease means there is a good chance they have been run dry or had water in, in which case they probably are shot. But they are cheap, readily available, and easy to replace.

John

yeah sounds like how the yanks do it they use a uj but in an open knuckle with a greaseable uj prety strong but the knuckle is open so fills with garbage all the time and kills the joints prety quick. i might bust the whole front axel out monday arvo and strip it down in the work shop and see how much its going to cost to fix up. one worry is the front spring hangers at the front of the chassie are floged out from being loose and one even looks like its been welded back on

Jeeps , well the older WW2 ones , were fitted with either Tracta, Rzeppa or Bendix type Cv joints . The Tracta type is uncommon and only seen on early production Jeeps , they went over the the Bendix and Rzeppa types for mass production. You sometimes come across a mixture on individual vehicles , I think had a Tracta on one side and a Rzeppa on the other side !

In 4WD fokllore, the Tracta is considered to be the strongest and least likely to give trouble or wear out . The other designs feature balls , which are prone to wear .. On some jeeps , as you go into full lock in 4WD , you'll hear a clattering sound from the front end, indicating worn CV joints.

BTW , apparently the UJ joints, as used in post 53 Land Rovers, are not a true CV joint. CV= both shafts , input and output revolve at same speed constantly . Can anyone comment on this ?
Mike

Originally Posted by series1buff

BTW , apparently the UJ joints, as used in post 53 Land Rovers, are not a true CV joint. CV= both shafts , input and output revolve at same speed constantly . Can anyone comment on this ?
Mike

As far as I am aware they are just a UJ and fulfil no CV function. Hence the change to CVs with contant 4wd landies.

Garry

Yes, that is the case with universal joints Mike.

Tracta joints are constant velocity, as well as being a superb piece of engineering to look at and play with, I can't ever imagine one wearing out unless it was operated in salt water with no oil present.

I suppose the only reason they were discontinued, would have been because of the manufacturing cost.

Originally Posted by series1buff

Jeeps , well the older WW2 ones , were fitted with either Tracta, Rzeppa or Bendix type Cv joints . The Tracta type is uncommon and only seen on early production Jeeps , they went over the the Bendix and Rzeppa types for mass production. You sometimes come across a mixture on individual vehicles , I think had a Tracta on one side and a Rzeppa on the other side !

In 4WD fokllore, the Tracta is considered to be the strongest and least likely to give trouble or wear out . The other designs feature balls , which are prone to wear .. On some jeeps , as you go into full lock in 4WD , you'll hear a clattering sound from the front end, indicating worn CV joints.

BTW , apparently the UJ joints, as used in post 53 Land Rovers, are not a true CV joint. CV= both shafts , input and output revolve at same speed constantly . Can anyone comment on this ?
Mike

As I have pointed out twice in this thread, the 86" Series 1 (and all after except Stage 1) used a conventional cross and bearing type U-joint, the same as on the prop shafts. These, unlike any type of CV joint, have no sliding action and do not normally wear or give any trouble in this application provided they are properly lubricated (grease filled swivel housings are dubious, water or mud filled or dry ones are definite causes of failure). The reason for the change from Tracta joints was probably cost, but contrary to your suggestion, they are prone to wear due to the sliding action. With the change to part time four wheel drive, and the assumption that four wheel drive would only be used on soft surfaces, it was considered unnecessary to have CV joints.

The Tracta joint was invented by Gregoire for his Tracta front wheel drive racing cars in the twenties, and was used from then on in many front wheel drive and four wheel drive vehicles. The Jeep, going into mass production in 1942 was probably the first mass produced use of it, as the production numbers would have been higher than Citroen's to that time. I do not know when Jeep changed from them but it was probably in the early sixties. The first user of the now ubiquitous Rzeppa joint was the Mini in 1958, although I think it was invented in the late twenties. Much harder to make than the Tracta joint, but less friction, as there is only second order sliding.

John

Originally Posted by JDNSW

. The first user of the now ubiquitous Rzeppa joint was the Mini in 1958, although I think it was invented in the late twenties. .

John

Hi John ,
The Rzeppa CV joint was actually widely used during WW2 on Jeeps and Dodges, along with the Bendix-Weiss CV design. I don't know the ratio of Rzeppa to Bendix ..but we are talking huge numbers . Total Jeeps + Dodges built over 1,000,000 + the 300,000 odd Canadian built Blitz trucks that used the Bendix design also . Not to mention the 700,000 GMC and Studebaker 6X6 trucks ..it goes on and on !

The pommie WW2 4X4's .....yes, surprising to many people, the Brits made many many thousands of 4X4's before Land Rovers came along . Bedford - Ford - Morris - Humber - Austin - Guy - AEC - Albion - Crossley , the list goes on : I think they used the tracta CV joint on most of them.
Mike

Originally Posted by series1buff

Hi John ,
The Rzeppa CV joint was actually widely used during WW2 on Jeeps and Dodges, along with the Bendix-Weiss CV design. I don't know the ratio of Rzeppa to Bendix ..but we are talking huge numbers . Total Jeeps + Dodges built over 1,000,000 + the 300,000 odd Canadian built Blitz trucks that used the Bendix design also . Not to mention the 700,000 GMC and Studebaker 6X6 trucks ..it goes on and on !

The pommie WW2 4X4's .....yes, surprising to many people, the Brits made many many thousands of 4X4's before Land Rovers came along . Bedford - Ford - Morris - Humber - Austin - Guy - AEC - Albion - Crossley , the list goes on : I think they used the tracta CV joint on most of them.
Mike

That is interesting, thanks for the information - I have seen several sources (probably all quoting each other) giving the Mini as the first use. I know that the Weiss joint was used extensively in WW2, though - actually, as far as I can see it is functionally almost the same as the Rzeppa joint, but with only a few balls the load is much more concentrated.

I would expect that the British four wheel drives would have used Tracta joints, although there were a number of prewar front wheel drive British cars which used cross and bearing non-CV joints, as did all WW1 four wheel drives from all countries. But the Tracta joint was widely publicised in Europe and Britain (unlike in the US), particularly by its use in the Citroen Traction Avant, the first mass produced front wheel drive car. Although by about 1936 they had changed to using double cardan joints instead, perhaps because of costs but also perhaps because of lubrication problems of the open joint - one of the things that has made the modern front wheel drive setup practical is the long lasting rubber boot, probably a WW2 development. Not a problem with a live axle four wheel drive.

John