'70 IIA Wagon questions

[JayBoRover]

So I went for a test drive in this today:



It's on gas with a very large cylinder, which may be a good thing considering it's had the Holden 186 transplant. The gas conversion was done 3 years ago but the car hasn't had much use in the last two years as it's just been parked in a showroom demonstrating the roof tent. There is an auto top end oiler under the bonnet - I assume it's upper cylinder lubricant to complement the gas conversion and/or the "leaded" status of the engine:


It's reasonably tidy. There's minor rusting of the rhs front of the chassis rail but doesn't reach the spring hanger. The hole is very small - less than 5c piece size so definitely repairable. The rest of the chassis and outriggers are good and even the rear cross member is reasonable. The interior is very tidy although it has a fair bit of "extra stuff" added like radio, two way, gas level indicator, tacho and an overhead console with speakers, etc. It seems to have been done without compromising the original stuff too much though. It has a small sports steering wheel but has had power steering fitted to make it still drivable.


It ran okay, although a couple of backfires started just as I was almost back to the start but I did notice the gas indicator was reading very low and it was running on the gas so maybe running out, and changed gears no problems. I didn't get a chance to test low range but it turned okay without complaints from the diffs on tarseal, although the steering lock was dismal. It's been a few years since I drove a leaf front sprung car so probably my memory has faded.

Probably the only real concern I have is the way it wanders all over the place when driving along. It's a fairly constant weave from side to side, pretty slow and there's no shaking from the steering wheel - just constant drifting from side to side by a couple of feet. Both front swivel hubs are leaking a fair bit but the hubs are shiny without pitting, so maybe they need an overhaul kit and re-greasing. It does have a steering damper fitted, that I think was installed at the same time as the power steering unit.
I discussed it with the current owner and suggested I'd like to jack the front wheels up and check for how things feel. He's okay with that so I'll arrange to go back in some overalls instead of trousers and white business shirt.

The price is pretty scary until you see the list of receipts for everything it's had done. I haven't yet checked all the electrics or done any engine checks, apart from checking the radiator water had no oil floating on top before I started it. I know the 186 engine a bit so not too concerned with that but can anyone comment on the ease of getting parts for these now? It's about 25 years since I had one.

I'd appreciate anyone's ideas of what I should be especially watching out for. Are there any other considerations with buying a Holden conversion?

Cheers

[JDNSW]

I would check how the power steering has been done - and whether it has engineering approval (same with other modifications). Wandering is likely to be free play in the steering, most likely to be tie rod ends, but could be the power steering setup. Another possibility is spring bushes (front or rear) or broken spring leaves or loose U-bolts. Loose wheel bearings may also cause this.

The oil leaks from the swivels are quite usual, and may mean only that the preload needs adjusting, but new seals should be expected - which means pulling the swivel to bits and checking everything - expect to replace the railko bushes at least, possibly the top in and maybe the bearing. This would also give a chance to check bearings.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have to agree with John on this one, wandering is likely tie rod ends or play in the relay or steering box. As JD suggests check the power steering setup - if it is a ram type all the OEM Land Rover steering components are still there and can wear.

If it's a power steering box, then check the lever isn't loose on the spline (same with OEM relay box if still there.)

After that the next thing to do is to check the suspension "U" bolts for tightness and the spring centre bolts are intact.

[chazza]

If you get him to wiggle the steering wheel with the engine running, whilst you lie on the ground, you can observe the steering rod ends for sloppy movement. Checking the top relay lever and the drop arm from the box (if it still has the original steering box) can be done from inside the engine bay. Putting a finger on a ball joint is a useful way to feel for slop but be careful of spinning parts such as the fan.

Make a list of all the leaks and worn bits you find as you inspect it and show the owner what you have discovered and then you can hum and har about the price if you feel like doing that.

Inspect the engine conversion closely; in particular what type of radiator it has and whether a fan shroud has been fitted and if the engine is likely to overheat. Holden engines are not as much fun to drive off-road as they have less low-rev torque; they go well on-road but are probably thirstier.

There should be an LPG installer's plaque on the car somewhere, so check to see when it was done and by whom. I think gas bottles have to be inspected and re-certified after 10 years. Ask if the cylinder head has had hardened seats fitted (it should be in the receipts if he says yes) if not the engine will burn the seats running on LPG and that will involve expense to put right.

Don't get too alarmed by his by his pile of receipts - check to see what new parts have been fitted and ignore what he paid in labour. Your defence can be that you do all of your own work yourself, so it would make more economical sense for you to buy a rough one and rebuild it with new parts

Cheers Charlie

[JayBoRover]

Thanks everyone. The gas conversion was 3 years ago and is an APA system. The receipts for that are in the file and it cost just over $3k. It all seems to be well installed and there is a data plate for it.

The power steering was professionally installed and there are receipts for that installation. I'll have to check the items you suggested. The engine change has engineers approval and it's registered with the engine change but I'll have to look closer to see if that included the power steering installation.

I've rebuilt the swivel hubs on my GU Nissan ute so I'm okay with that. Not a big issue to do as long as all the bits are available. The Nissan cost about $250 per wheel for the swivel hub overhaul kit. Is that the right ball park for a Land Rover equivalent?

Does the upper cylinder lubricant set-up act as an alternative to having the seats hardened? He quite specifically advertised it as "leaded petrol", so my assumption is the valve seats are not hardened. I know there are some failings of the additive system due to the way a vacuum system works but it's got to be better than nothing. The real question I have is whether I'd still be adding lead replacement with the fuel going in the tank?

I'm not alarmed by all the receipts, in fact it's encouraging to see everything has been done professionally, much of it at a Land Rover place. The receipts included a gearbox rebuild, a new clutch, fitting and wiring of the radio and two-way, fitting of helper air-bags at the rear as well as the previously mentioned major works.

I think I'm on the right track with going back and jacking the front end up to check for play in the steering system. I'll take my camera and get some more snaps. Hopefully I can arrange it for this weekend.

Cheers again for all your advice. Very much appreciated.
John B

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The upper cylinder lubricant may be a lead replacement in a petrol engine, however LPG is dry and does not provide any lubrication to the valves etc. So the system is providing some lubrication in the system.

Some people use diesel in the same system instead of the flashlube or whatever.

However there is debate on whether it is really necessary. Taxis on LPG can often get a million K on an engine, however taxi engines rarely get cold and a cold engine is when the lubrication is needed most.

If you do need to replace tie rod ends,make sure you get the correct type. SIIa usually have a flat shoulder for about 1/2" before the stop. This shoulder is used for secure clamping of the tie rod. SIII tie rods had the thread all the way to the stop and clamp in the thread. There is not enough clamping pressure on a IIa tie rod when using thread only ends.

Even if the tie rod you remove had a thread all the way, check inside the tube to check if there is a thread inside the end. If there is no thread then you need to get the shouldered tie rod ends.

Some vendors will try to tell you that the threaded ones are for all Series Land Rovers. They are wrong and their use could have fatal consequences if a tie rod end comes away. (Which has happened on numerous occasions.)

[101RRS]

The vacuum fuel saver system works well and is purely an upper cylinder lubricant. In your system is to cover the lack of lead in both petrol and LPG - I suspect that model holden engine does not have hardened seats etc.

The 750ml bottle in the system is a cost effective way of delivering the lubricant but the dripper does take a bit to set up.

Garry

[chazza]

I've rebuilt the swivel hubs on my GU Nissan ute so I'm okay with that. Not a big issue to do as long as all the bits are available. The Nissan cost about $250 per wheel for the swivel hub overhaul kit. Is that the right ball park for a Land Rover equivalent?

I think I'm on the right track with going back and jacking the front end up to check for play in the steering system.
John B

You should get out of it much cheaper than $250 per side if all you need is: seals; railko bush and shims and probably even if you need the bottom bearing. If the wheel bearings have been running in oil and have been properly adjusted, they will probably be OK. Check out these websites:
Paddock Spares - Land Rover, Range Rover Parts & Accessories - Discovery, Defender and Freelander
L. R. Series - specialists in land rover, land rover series and range rover - gearbox, axle, transmission parts, spares and major units
John Craddock Ltd - The Largest supplier of Land Rover Parts and Spares in the World
Land Rover parts - Home
British Four Wheel Drive - Land Rover & Range Rover Parts Specialist :: DISCOVERY SERIES 1
Karcraft Australia
Land Rover Series Parts From Brookwells Land Rover Parts
P.A. Blanchard & Co. : Ex Military Landrover Specialists, Trailers, Ex MOD Spares, Surplus Stores & Equipment

I bought my shouldered rod-ends from Brookwells, who thanked me for pointing out that some S3's should have them (according to the parts book).

You may have to pay more of course if the bearings are dicey and you don't like the look of the brake components. In general I have been delighted how cheap most brake and axle parts for Land Rovers are.

Diana is quite correct about the steering rod-ends; on my S3 there were both types to contend with. Don't check for play whilst the machine is jacked up, the wheels have to be on the ground or the play will be harder to spot.

It looks like a nice car - good luck!

Cheers Charlie

[JayBoRover]

More fantastic advice. This place rocks!

I have driven and owned vehicles with CNG many years ago (in NZ - including a 202 Holden), and LPG is kinda similar in the workings and the issues so no worries there.

That's a great list of sites for parts, thanks Charlie. I suspect I'll get to know them a bit over the next few years. (Still looking for a 80" S1 project)

I was actually looking for an S3 in good condition as a "daily runner" when I stumbled across this S2A. (I still have to confirm the fact it's an S2A - it's advertised as a 1972 but I found paperwork that suggests it's a 1970 S2A). I think this one might have originally been one of the 6 cylinder S2A's and the radiator is the original for the 6. I'll try to find out more details. I have arranged to revisit on Saturday morning with some tools, a hydraulic jack and a multimeter ... and of course my camera for everyones benefit on here.
Looking promising at the moment though.

Cheers
John B

[JayBoRover]

So I headed to the current owner's place for a second, more thorough look at the S2A - this time armed with decent camera instead of mobile phone.

The inside looks very nice.
[IMG][/IMG]
The nice paint work done does hide a little rust but I "got poky with it" while the owner was't looking and it's pretty much the odd spot of light surface rust. There is some light rusting at the base of the passenger's side pillar near the bottom door hinge but it really is very minor.

So it's definitely a 1970 Series 2A.
Chassis number is 25330460G on the data plate riveted to the cabin side of the firewall ...
[IMG][/IMG]
and on the chassis passenger's side rear leaf hanger:
[IMG][/IMG]

I checked the radiator as someone suggested but couldn't find any identifying marks on it. It does look a little small and on the longer test drive I took today, in much warmer weather than the other day, the electric fan did come on when stopped at lights and such.
[IMG][/IMG]
Also you can see there is no shroud fitted. Something I can probably take care of. The water in the radiator is pure water so some coolant may help. The hoses all felt a little "crumbly" inside so would need replacing I think.
[IMG][/IMG]

The handbrake doesn't seem to work at so I had a look underneath at that:
[IMG][/IMG]
There is major oil all over it coming from the back of the final output seal on the box. Where the linkage goes into the handbrake drum there is a seal that is pulled away from the drum housing so the oil just heads on in to party on the linings. I also got the wife to pull the handbrake lever up and down repeatedly and I saw that all the linkages are loose and one mount point bolt is loose.

Another point I was to check was the vague steering. The steering ball joint at both ends of the steering arm are very sloppy.
[IMG][/IMG]
as well as the ball joint at the power steering cylinder joint
[IMG][/IMG]
Note that the power steering conversion is simply a bolt on hydraulic ram to the steering arm so all the original LR steering components are retained.

One cross member is pretty seriously "whacked" (like the car's been dropped on a boulder from a great height!) but there's little in the way of rust anywhere on the chassis or firewall.
[IMG][/IMG]

So all in all it looked pretty good. I took it for a much longer drive than the other day and I liked it more and more. I switched from LPG to petrol and it ran even better on petrol with no spluttering or popping when planting my foot at very low revs. It didn't jump out of any gears, despite heavy on and off throttle applications. My wife complained about the oily smell, her seatbelt wouldn't work, the seat was too hot and she couldn't understand how people can hold conversations on long drives ... so I bought it. I'm now the proud owner of a 1970 Series 2A. I'l pick it up during the week after the banks have sorted out all their issues and things are back to normal there.

Cheers
JayBo