Running Jet A1 (fuel) in a TD5

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

Smells like BS to me.

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I think you are smelling something else, actually! :D

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

There is heresay about it on many forums, but no facts.

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You want facts: here they are - from Landrover International, Spring 2007 edition.

This is from an article by Eddie Evans, quoting Les Wilkins, Diesel Engine Development Manager with Landrover during the TD5 period.

'The new injector system was put through separate tests on specially developed rigs, and run on kerosene, which represented the worse case situation as far as lubrication properties were concerned. If the injectors proved durable using kerosene, they would also survive the poorest quality diesel fuel.'

and

'United States special forces decided their own vehicles were too big for some Gulf areas and bought a fleet of 100 TD5 Defenders. Because of logistical problems in getting diesel fuel, they wanted to run the engines on aircraft fuel and it was great to be able to say "yes, no problem". They were able to run them on jet fuel without any additives . . . . . . TD5 is quite happy because it has no injection pump. And anyway, all the injection development and durability testing was done using kerosene.'

Cheers,

Lionel

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Originally Posted by Lionel

This is true.

I have an article here from "Landrover International" written by Les Wilkins, who did the design work for the TD5. Much of the injector development work was done using kerosene to test durability, with no problems at all.

Some military forces in the Middle East wanted to use JP5 in TD5 Land rovers, and LR were able to give approval in the light of the above.

If I were using AVTUR in a TD5 I would still add a little lubricant just to be on the safe side.

Cheers,

Lionel

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x2 LRO Spring 2007 p210

The quote from Les Wilkins related to the fleet of 100 TD5 Defenders bought by US Special forces who wanted a single fuel supply for aircraft and land vehicles: he says "...we were able to say "Yes, no problem" they were able to run them on pure jet fuel without any additives.... TD5 is quite happy because it has no injection pump. And anyway, all (my emphasis) the injector development and durability testing was done using kerosene"

He goes on to say that they (the US) "...also ran a few Discovery TD5s on jet fuel"

Regarding the 300Tdi in Wolf: "...will also run on jet fuel, but you need to add a small amount of lubricating oil"

From specs avaliable on the web, it appears Jet A1 has lubricating and anti corrosive additives and is therefore more "friendly" than straight kero which was probably chosen as a 'worst case' scenario to prove the durability of the engine design.

Very interesting read :)

Thanks for that lionel, finally a response with actual references to back it up, looks like you will be wasting your time camping for days black night!

Shamo

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Originally Posted by harry

we look after a fleet of aircraft using jet a1 in a diesel engine [not a turbine]
the engine's fuel pumps are modified to run the low lubricity avtur/jet a1.
although most people here are telling you about the injector cost,
in your engine, the first thing that will fail is the fuel pump.

put your dads jet fuel into a drum for washing parts or kill the weeds with it.

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Na mate, got no weeds. Tell you what though a leaking fuel pressure regulator let it clean the under body of the car pretty well!!

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Originally Posted by Shamo

Thanks for that lionel, finally a response with actual references to back it up, looks like you will be wasting your time camping for days black night!

Shamo

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I'll see if I can find the write up from the company that makes the injectors that states the injectors dont like jet fuel I know I can get you the one for cat and detroit injectors.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA239022
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA297747

While those 2 dont cover direct unit injections they do cover the causes of the damage and explain the section where the damage is likely to take place (the fuel pump plungers and lift pump)

http://www.langleyvw.ca/tech/pd.html
has a good layout and explanation of unit injection along with a good cutaway, its slightly different than a td5 injector but the main parts are the same. (the piston pump)


all the parts that get damaged are still there ,they've just moved to different locations in the system.


I'll try to get online copies of the release from detroit and CAT specifying not to use avtur (jet-a1) in their unit injected engines tonight and If I cant I'll raid the copies from FEMS. I've no doubt that the mob that make the injectors for the TD5 will have a similar statement for exactly the same reasons.

Have read this thread with some interest and amazed that I have only discussed this same issue with some Defence chums this week.......

I used to manage all the infrastructure at a RAAF Base (SQLD) a few years ago and at the time, the RAAF refuelers needed to get rid of 6 X 44 drums of contaminated JetA1 (Avtur), so gave them to us to dispose of.

JetA1 is for all intent and purpose very refined kero....diesel with the oil content refracted out!

I had my tradies decant the Avtur through filters to clean the fuel up (Which by the way was quite clean however, the law states that you cannot replace used or contaminated fuel back into an aircraft....which was great when there was 110 RON AvGas available and you owned a race bike but that's another story).......

Anyhow, due to AvTur being a very 'dry fuel' - we poured a litre of mineral 2-stroke oil into each 44 and those of us who had diesels didn't have to pay for fuel for 3 months :D.....hey, it was either use it or give it away to a re-cycler who would have done the same:)

It worked perfectly - low engine noise & smooth running which I attributed to the 2-stroke oil with the only downside being higher fuel consumption and a slight loss of power.

Avtur doesn't have the same calorific burn rate of diesel in a compression ignition engine so you tend to use more fuel to get the same 'bang-for-your-buck' and I noticed the small loss of power driving up hills when I would need to change gear whereas on diesel - no need.

I've flown helicopters for 22 years and know from personal experience that from a gas turbine perspective, they will run happily on diesel and in an emergency - even ULP or AvGas....as long as you monitor TOT (Turbine Outlet Temperature) as the start ups are generally VERY HOT :eek:

As pointed out earlier in this thread - diesels are happy to run on many low refracted fuels...but I acknowledge that you have to look after fuel pumps and injectors with adequate lubrication ;)

Cheers!

Guys - please don't confuse civilian and military grade AVTUR - it is different.

Military grade has different adititives to the civilian spec. This is because civilian aircraft have heaters for their fuel - military don't. So they have to stop the fuel from freezing at altitude. This is done with additives.

The military grade also runs a lubricant and a detergent (for lack of better words and a 1/2 page explanation) which changes it again from the civilian equivalent.

The Isuzu, 200tDi and 300tDi will run it quite fine. How do I know? I've done it personally.


As for the TD5, whilst there is that article that has been quoted - I'd be 'very' cautious about using it if it were my own vehicle. Especially if it was the civilian variety.

It isn't just the injection pump that's the problem - this stuff can and has degraded the seals causing leakages amongst other issues.

as a side.

delphi/lucasvarity make injectors for the TD5

heres the latest PDFs for the latest in delphi tech injectors.

http://delphi.com/shared/pdf/ppd/cv/pwrtrn/e3.pdf
http://delphi.com/shared/pdf/ppd/cv/...t-injector.pdf

If it was me and IF I was building injectors that could run on any old fuel I'm pretty sure Id list it on the spec sheet as something it can do.

I've emailed delphi's contact us and asked which if any of their diesel injectors are suited to use any of the aviation grade turbine fuels in standard trim.

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Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

as a side.

delphi/lucasvarity make injectors for the TD5

heres the latest PDFs for the latest in delphi tech injectors.

http://delphi.com/shared/pdf/ppd/cv/pwrtrn/e3.pdf
http://delphi.com/shared/pdf/ppd/cv/...t-injector.pdf

If it was me and IF I was building injectors that could run on any old fuel I'm pretty sure Id list it on the spec sheet as something it can do.

I've emailed delphi's contact us and asked which if any of their diesel injectors are suited to use any of the aviation grade turbine fuels in standard trim.

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And the answer was?????