LPG as Refrigerant

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Originally Posted by LandieMan

LPG being used as a commerical refrigerant killed and mamed a pile of fireman in NZ not so long ago.

The local brigade was responding to a "routine" alarm at a cool store and the place exploded. It was horrific.

Google "Tamamhere coolstore fire" if you're interested in the details.

Cheers, Landieman

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It killed one and it wasn't a "routine alarm" the place was on fire and full of cheese which was melting, burning and flowing everywhere.

The problem there was the fire department didn't know what refrigerant was being used, as you can imagine they have very different strategies for dealing with ammonia, freon and natural gas based refrigeration. Each type poses a very different set of risks.

A mate who lives in that area tells me it still smells of burnt cheese.

This should be a link to the article I was referring to.

.http://www.hychill.com.au/pdf/pasolpgr.pdf.

But does it work. If it does its a first.

Didiman

Keith,

It works fine for me!

Bob

Had to do some aircon repairs on the sons ford recently. When finished I went to Bursons and got a can of Hychill. When using this gas you only need about one third of what it had with R134. One can was perfect and it cost $20. Air con works as good as it did before.

Dave.

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Originally Posted by superquag

Yet the
Classic on factory R134a only gets the air down to 12 to 15 degrees, the Mazda around 3. Thats with a thermometer poked down an air-vent.

Cynical Old James from Gosnells.

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You must have some other problem with this temp.

When I purchased my 82 classic in 92 the aircon didn't work. I know a bloke who was in the aircon game and he diagnosed a crook compressor.

He sold me a new one which I fitted and then he did what was needed to convert to R134(I think it was flush system and new drier)

On a hot day the duct temp would get down to 5 degrees.

Dave.

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Originally Posted by rick130

James, I'm not sure which of my posts you are referring too ?

The first one where I mention that Electrolux uses hydrocarbons exclusively (and there is no inherent problem IMO, it's a good enviro move) or the one where I retrofitted a system back to a conventional blend ?

If the latter, somewhere between 4 and 6 kg of hydrocarbon could potentially leak into an airtight space. (not the 350g or so used in a car a/c system)
As Scarry said, the bulk of refrigerant leaks on commercial systems tend to occur in the FDC, either around the TX valve or associated piping.
There was no monitoring equipment to activate a non existent alarm.
People using the chiller aren't permanent staff trained in its operation, they are roo and pig shooters from all over the countryside who just rock up with their kills, open the door and load the carcasses in the middle of the night.

If anything could potentially happen
a) I'd have to live with it.
b) it's my arse and more importantly insurance on the line.

Would you take the risk ?

I've been through what was needed to retrofit a small country supermarket to hydrocarbon refrigerants with Ladas, and it just wasn't viable.
On a large scale yes, the extra safety/monitoring stuff can be amortised into the overall cost better but I wont do it unless IMO the job site is safe.

To give you an idea the Engineers from Electrolux were telling me that the new wiring and switches that they had to incorporate in case of a gas leak adds almost $80 to their production cost of a fridge, but they are saving massively in their overall refrigerant usage and are having large savings in efficiency.
They did that for only 50g of HC, an amount that only goes 'pop' and pops the freezer door open if it does 'explode'.


BTW, I've recharged plenty of tractor a/c systems that originally had R12 to a blend such as Origin 34M or Isceon 49 and they work great. They are blends of approx. 90% R134a and a mix of iso-propyl alcohol, isobutane and isopropane.
They are generally around 8% more efficient than R134a, but quite a bit more expensive.
A 1991 Fiat tractor last week was achieving 4.5* at the outlet (admittedly using an SDH15 Sanden compressor, one designed for R134A)
TX valve is the original R12 one.
Yes, I could us an HC but that's another bottle of refrigerant I'd have to carry around, another bottle rental, etc, etc and ATM I'm stocking seven different refrigerants and I'm over it.

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sound like you know your stuff.

so whats good or an original county setup ? LOL

For what it's worth, when I took the Care Refrigerant course in the U.K. we were told that it was only for domestic to small integral cabinets. ALL controls, switches etc had to be explosive atmosphere compliant, ditto any equipment used on the system like a recovery unit for e.g.
All due to the possibilty of fire / explosion, even though it's only flammable between 3 & 7% (iirc) of atmosphere by volume.
Since then, Tesco trialled it on one of their stores. We never found out how well it performed as we lost the service contract, however I admit none of us wanted to have anything to do with that store! Even with using Enviropaks (small local compressor plants in stead of the traditional central plant room) there would have been a LOT of boom gas in there.

Oh, pretty much all liquids & gases can be used as a refrigerant & have R numbers. It's a matter of whether they have the right specific heat capacity, etc. for the application.

Rick,

Was more of a general rant against the (mindless) Safety-at-all-co$ts nutters.
Certainly agree with your decision to re-gas the kangaroo cryo chamber with something safe(r) for the bright sparks likely to use it, even though its not as efficient asthe Evil Bang-Gas.

On the other hand, just because you or anyone else needs to in this instance should *not* to be taken as a precedent for banning HC in other areas such as motor vehicles.
Horses for courses.

As I hinted , there are vested interests who would be pleased to get rid of a rival product by any means fair or foul. Sadly, pollies chasing votes will happily go along with any argument that touts SAFETY and the chances of actually thinking about it proportional only to the vote-attracting quotient.

Apologies for the ranting, but dishonest science, crooked reasoning and conniving bullying business really annoy me!

- Almost as much as the crawilng insects you send with each of your contributions... one of them wanders around the inside of my screen...and gets me 2 out of 3 times..... :-)

My Whippy,
- I've been told that the ideal (ball-park figure) temp deep inside an outlet is around 1 degree, and less at the evaporator to be pedantic.

My old CM Valiant went down to < 2 degrees and would eventually freeze the middle back-seat passenge on its fastest fan speed.
That ran R12 via a massive York compressor, and worked beautifully on 47 degree days.

Yes, there is indeed something amiss with my A/c, but whilst it works in balmy weather I'll leave it. When it goes, it will be replaced with a HC refrigerant.

James in Gosnells

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rick130

Yes, I could us an HC but that's another bottle of refrigerant I'd have to carry around, another bottle rental, etc, etc and ATM I'm stocking seven different refrigerants and I'm over it.

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X2

This is what all those engineers,greenies or whatever don't realise.We stock 8 refrigerants at all times at the moment ,plus reclaim bottles.Our vans carry 5 different types at all times.I am completely over it.Then there is the oxy & acet bottles,nitrogen bottles,etc.

Now just wait until 22 is phased out,which is gonna happen shortly,then we will have more different types to carry,that is all the drop in replacements:mad:.And we will have to do all the field R& D for it,that is,some will work better at high temps,some better at medium temp.,etc,etc,as we did for the R12/502 replacements.

Ahhh,the bottle rental,i love when that bill comes around.

Last week,i put my van on the scales.It was loaded with normal gear i carry every day,nothing extra,it was 100kg off max gross.So it appears if i fill it with extra gear for a job such as a compresser change or whatever,it's a good chance it will be overloaded,the apprentice alone will add 60kg.:eek:

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Originally Posted by superquag

Rick,

My old CM Valiant went down to < 2 degrees and would eventually freeze the middle back-seat passenge on its fastest fan speed.
That ran R12 via a massive York compressor, and worked beautifully on 47 degree days.



James in Gosnells

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I had a CM station wagon for about 9 years and would still have it but for terminal rust. The OEM integrated a/c system effortlessly kept the large interior space of a big wagon cool to cold. They had a cast iron 12 cfm York reciprocating compressor. Regularly one had to mix hot air from the heater with the a/c air to make a comfortable temperature.