Thread: new noise after V8 cam install

Originally Posted by RoverP6B

If the engine shows a CR of 8.23 : 1, then when originally built with the pistons that were then fitted, that is what it would have been. LC 4.6 litre engines made by Land Rover were either 8.13 : 1 for tempest or 8.37 : 1 for thor.

Ron.

hi ron - i guess i got that around the wrong way. it's the pistons (tops?) which make it the HC or LC?

i just had a look in the land rover workshop manuals in the library for D1 and D2. it says LC in D1 4.0 (i guess NAS) were 8.2:1 and in the D2 were 8.23:1 for the 4.0. so i guess that is good news in some ways as it is a 4.0/4.6 block with the larger bottom end bearings (?) but might mean it is the lower spec block than the 4.6??

Originally Posted by PhilipA

As I posted earlier, if it is cam knock it is merely annoying.

in my case it can be more than annoying - as each day passes i'm getting closer to drawing a line in the sand with this vehicle. if i do that, then selling a vehicle with a knocking sound is not a good combination.

the car goes bloody well, heaps of grunt and great for pulling loads. all the work i've done on the thing is to get the fuel economy down but it is still at 27-28l/100k lpg around town. when i was speaking to the ford dealer the other day he used to work at bmw and he said an x5 he sold to a doctor here would use around 22l/100k around town on petrol. he said it had a 4.8 motor. i guess a large part of the discrepancy between my economy and what other people say they get (including their questionable methods of calculating fuel use - how hard can it be. do a few tanks of fuel and work out how many k you travelled over those tanks!) is the hilly nature of hobart. especially where i live - my street, if you want to go from the bottom to the top you almost call a taxi rather than do it on foot. to go to my shack down the bush there are 3 large extended hills on the way there. there just aren't too many places i drive which are flat. if i was living on the mainland it would be cheaper to run than my old tdi even at 27-28l/100k.

though the other side of the equation is the opportunity cost of the capital you put into a new vehicle. and when all is said an done even at 27-28l/100k with hobarts high lpg prices it is in the vicinity of around $750 more a year to run on fuel over 15k km. i've got a couple of things left to do to reduce this usage and if not successful she's out the door! and i will be following up with the XXXX who sold it to me and told me he gets 20-25l/100k around town here in hobart. a check of his posts shows this was true for the 3.9 he had in the vehicle with manual trans, but once the 4.6 went in it was in the mid 30's which is exactly where it was at when i bought it. he is a member on here.

the story continues but with some answers by the looks of it.

have just pulled the camshaft out and it was roo.....not very good. 4 lobes in particular were well gone with one almost missing in action. at idle there was a miss on the worst of these lobes, and the other 3 were near enough having no impact when the spark lead was disconnected.

had the camshaft hardness tested and all lobes well within spec - all indicators point to the lack of oil pressure during the initial cam bedding in being the cause.

so i am after some advice on what things to check for giving regard to side effects of the camshaft problem to ensure the motor can be put back together and it has a happy life here after..

i'm no mechanic but was thinking with all the extra clattering from the lifters to check pushrods for straightness, check the inserts where the pushrods connect into the rocker arms are still in shape and not pushed in.

oil pump - can this have been impacted and what to check?
oil pickup pipe - check there is no crack in it which makes it difficult to prime when cold as the oil light stays on for 3-5 seconds when cold but goes off straight away when warm?
pressure relief valve - not sticking and in working order?
bearings - is it only required to check the mains?
Any other stuff to check??????

i have also taken the heads off as always thought there is something astray with the motor even though it has done maybe 60kk since being a new 4.6 from TRS. this turned out to be a worthwhile exercise. it appears it has been leaking on cylinders 7 and 8 and was soon to be happening on the other end too.

the gasket which came off was a composite for a 14 bolt head even though the heads are 10 bolts. i have read on here that the 14 bolt composite are thinner than the 10 bolts composite so i should put a 14 bolt composite back on given that's what came off?

aside from the head gasket i am also a bit suspect on the valves sealing correctly and the valve stem seals doing their job. for a quite new motor which runs on lpg i was surprised there was quite a bit of yucky oily residue in the intake plenum. to check the valves would pouring petrol on them to see if they leak determine whether they are sealing and if not do they need to be recut or just reground? valve stem seals - how do you test these and what are the best type to use?

as for the knocking sound which may have been cam knock - well there are rub marks in the timing case. i checked the old camshaft and there was no provision for a thrust plate to be installed. when i am back where the car is i shall take some photos which will explain the wear and tear better than i can.

to go back in will be a wade 259a camshaft with new lifters, timing chain and sprocket.

Looking forward to peoples' advice.

Thanks,
Brett.

G`day , well that would be reason for the knock .

All the bits missing from the cam and the lifter faces has gone through the engine .
I`d suggest check the amount of metal ETC in the oil then decide if you need to replace all the bearings and check the oil pump as to how much went through it and if it will be usable .

Just tried our RR with this type oil pump and cold the light goes off in around 1 second it has 280k kilometers on it but don`t discount yours could be the switch playing up .

The cam is the first place to get oil , checking the cam bearings would be an idea , just looking/feeling the first one that can be easily seen/felt will give an idea , it`s the one that normally shows the most wear .

The thing is that because it had no pressure when started none of the bearings would have had much oil and the fact it was apart and the oil would have drained back , this adds to the problem .

The cam lobes are tapered , may not look like it but one side is higher and the lifter bases may not look it but are convex , when they are in this condition the cam is held back , when they are in the condition your cam and lifters are at present the cam is able to give the noise .

As i think i said earlier we have a 4.0 with the wade cam and it is silent and has no retaining measures don`t know the Ks but i think around 8 or 9 yrs as a daily with the 4.0 and wade , this 1 has the old type oil pump but as soon as it starts the light goes off .

Peter

Hi Pibby,

I nearly bought a 259A cam, but then decided to email Wade cams with all the info about the motor I could gather. Capacity, extractors, LPG, engine management etc, and asked their advice on cam recommendation. They suggested another of their grinds, the 1166A10. I'm very happy I took the time to ask their advice. The cam is fantastic.

Cheers
Andre

hi lrcounty,

i don't know much about cams but i did find the guys at wade very helpful. good to hear you're happy with it. maybe your vehicle is a manual so the cam you got would suit better. hope i have as much luck with mine.


brett.

Finally got back to where the car is and took some photos.

First up is the worst lobe on the camshaft which isn’t much of a lobe after all. This cylinder was ‘missing’ at idle but had a small impact once revs picked up. (jc – this is the cylinder you picked up as having a miss/ maybe a vacuum leak). There were three other lobes well gone but not as bad though they had minimal impact at idle when disconnected. The appropriate lifters were well hollowed out too.

Took a photo of the marks on the timing cover which may explain some of the knocking noise. The noise eventually stopped the night before I had it booked in for jc to look at! I’m guessing all of the wear upset the bias plr mentions which helps keep things in place without the need for a retaining plate on the camshaft?

Took a photo of the front bearing for the camshaft. The car is at the workshop which did the cam install last time though I have pulled the motor apart myself to this stage. The guy who owns the workshop says the bearing being like this probably explains the oil light staying on when the motor is cold as there is meant to be a groove in this bearing allowing the oil easy passage through. The camshaft is snapped to allow an assessment of how much the camshaft would wobble with just that part resting in the bearing – a fair bit it turns out. with the camshaft whole there wasn't any movement.

Also poured diesel into the heads to check for leaking valves. Of the 8 inlet valves, 5 were leaking. Of the 7 exhaust valves (one was taken out), 5 (or 6?) were leaking. I don’t know how critical that is but the guy from the workshop says they are not meant to leak at all. So a reco’d pair of heads are going back on. there was some splaying of the ends of some valves where the rocker arms touch. Of the two valves taken out at the work shop there was also a bit of side play where it passed through the guides.

Took some photos of the cylinders too. I’m told the lines are the cross hatching so are not worn. There is discolouration at the top of the liner but there is no ‘lip’ when you run your fingers over it. one cylinder has a vertical score(s) in it which can be felt by hand. And it looks like the head gasket has been leaking especially on the ends. This was a new motor 50 or 55kk ago from the milky ways largest land rover business. Is that a record for a head gasket going?

I’ve asked the guy at the workshop to check the oil pump and at the very least the mains. So at this stage the motor will go back together with the reco heads, new cam, lifters, chain and sprocket, new front bearing for the cam.

So this is where I would dearly like some advice. Is there anything else that would need checking/doing before this motor goes back together? Whilst this car has been apart I went off and bought myself a td5 defender so if it is the disco which has to go once it is back on the road I want to be able to look the person in the eye that buys it and say that what needed to be done to the motor was done. would be nice to keep both but it’s just getting too tight financially to have two on the road…………but then again if the disco goes like it should with the 4.6 on injected lpg it would be hard to part with. A stock td5 deefer sure aint no rocket.

thanks,
brett.

ooops, will post remaining pictures in next post.

some more pictures of the cylinders :

thanks,
brett.

Bloody heck Brett I wouldn't have expected to see THAT after those KM!!

I would say your fuel bill will be wayyy better after this what with some actual valve lift and some more compression. That valve looks as if it has done 250,000km +

That cam is definately a worry, wasn't that the one they reground???

Those vertical scores look almost like a piston nip mark, and there appears to be some oil residue on top of the piston crown where that score mark is, if so I'd be worried about ring sealing

Anyway, glad you're on top of it now.

JC