Thread: Is my Rangie more environmentally proper than a Prius?

Originally Posted by Dougal

Where are you going to get this hydrogen from?

1. From cracking methane (natural gas) and burying the carbon

2. From wind, solar and wave power, as a means of storing power for slack times. Somewhere I read about potential desert sites for producing solar power which would be connected to population centres by superconducting DC cables. The cooling would be provided by liquid H2 which can be used at the other end as well as the electricity.

Probably not all going to happen tomorrow but I believe demonstration superconducting HVDC cables are being trialled in the US.

Originally Posted by Dougal

Where are you going to get this hydrogen from?

The hydrogen shop... that's where we'll all get our hydrogen from 16 years from now.

If British engineers thought like some forum members we'd be posting on AUJO.com, because Land Rovers would never have been invented - 'no need, there's already a perfectly good Jeep available!'

People need to stop thinking about what exists right now and start thinking about what will be possible in 10 years, then in 20 years. The current crop are just rolling testbeds for the next generation of vehicles.

20 years ago I was learning about the fancy new fuel injection system fitted to EA falcons. Now kids are building far more advanced systems than that in their backyard. Times change, you can either change with them or get swept aside.

Cheers,

Adam

Originally Posted by Dougal

Where are you going to get this hydrogen from?

Hydrogen production from algae - The Science Show - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Originally Posted by bee utey

1. From cracking methane (natural gas) and burying the carbon

2. From wind, solar and wave power, as a means of storing power for slack times. Somewhere I read about potential desert sites for producing solar power which would be connected to population centres by superconducting DC cables. The cooling would be provided by liquid H2 which can be used at the other end as well as the electricity.

Probably not all going to happen tomorrow but I believe demonstration superconducting HVDC cables are being trialled in the US.

I'm not convinced using hydrogen as a battery (splitting it from water using power) and then oxidising it to create power has any advantage over currently available batterie for efficiency, energy density and storage losses. At least current batteries don't diffuse out of their steel tanks so easily.

Why not just burn the natural gas and find a way to trap the carbon from the exhaust?

Superconducting cables may be nice, but economically I know many countries don't have enough plain old conductors already. Forcing more current down old lines than ideal and creating big losses. We can make some big efficiency improvements in the grid with current practices, we just need the money and reasons to do it.

BTW, my next car will be another tdi wagon (likely VW) using around 5 litres per 100km. I'll be "upgrading" a current vehicle from di to tdi and raising the gearing with the intent of saving up to 25% of it's fuel bill and putting it around 5-6 litres/100km on the open road too.
I asked a honda sales guy if they had anything to compete. They tried to sell me an insight hybrid which will use the same amount of fuel, offer no driving pleasure, no interior space and can't tow a garden trailer.

Originally Posted by Dougal

I'm not convinced using hydrogen as a battery (splitting it from water using power) and then oxidising it to create power has any advantage over currently available batterie for efficiency, energy density and storage losses. At least current batteries don't diffuse out of their steel tanks so easily.

Why not just burn the natural gas and find a way to trap the carbon from the exhaust?

Superconducting cables may be nice, but economically I know many countries don't have enough plain old conductors already. Forcing more current down old lines than ideal and creating big losses. We can make some big efficiency improvements in the grid with current practices, we just need the money and reasons to do it.

BTW, my next car will be another tdi wagon (likely VW) using around 5 litres per 100km. I'll be "upgrading" a current vehicle from di to tdi and raising the gearing with the intent of saving up to 25% of it's fuel bill and putting it around 5-6 litres/100km on the open road too.
I asked a honda sales guy if they had anything to compete. They tried to sell me an insight hybrid which will use the same amount of fuel, offer no driving pleasure, no interior space and can't tow a garden trailer.

You're right of course. We should stick to current technology - this new fangled stuff will never work...

Originally Posted by akelly

You're right of course. We should stick to current technology - this new fangled stuff will never work...

More that we should stick to solutions with reality on their side. Not pander to political ideals with limited application. Like hydrogen.

If losses in the grid are a current problem, then we have the technology to fix that (more condutors) or bypass that (decentralised generation) right now.

We just need to address the reasons why it isn't happening.

Problem -> apply best current solution -> problem solved.
Not
Problem -> Dream Solution ->Doesn't work -> still not done generations down the track.

Originally Posted by Dougal

More that we should stick to solutions with reality on their side. Not pander to political ideals with limited application. Like hydrogen.

If losses in the grid are a current problem, then we have the technology to fix that (more condutors) or bypass that (decentralised generation) right now.

We just need to address the reasons why it isn't happening.

Problem -> apply best current solution -> problem solved.
Not
Problem -> Dream Solution ->Doesn't work -> still not done generations down the track.

Right again. Those crazy engineers... will they ever learn?

2011 Mercedes Benz B-Class F-Cell Review - Fuel Cell Car Test Drive - Popular Mechanics

Originally Posted by akelly

Right again. Those crazy engineers... will they ever learn?

2011 Mercedes Benz B-Class F-Cell Review - Fuel Cell Car Test Drive - Popular Mechanics

Did you read that article?

It's an experimental run of 200 cars, they have a bank of lithium ion batteries, weigh 2 tons and there is no mention of range or refuelling.

BMW has hydrogen experimental cars too (govt grants probably too good to pass up). The half-life of your hydrogen fill is one day. Whether you use it or not, tomorrow you'll have half a tank left.

Lets crunch some numbers. 3 tanks each holding 8 pounds of hydrogen. That's 10,890g.
Each kg of hydrogen has 142MJ of energy available: Source here: Energy Density of Hydrogen

The total energy stored in the hydrogen tanks is 1546 MJ
This is equivalent to 39 litres of diesel.

39 litres of diesel in a modern vehicle the same size will get you over 800km. It will also sit there for years and not evaporate.
The range of the F-cell is 240miles (390km) in optimal conditions according to these journalists who ran out: How the Mercedes-Benz F-Cell left us both stranded and impressed

Total efficiency, around half of a conventional diesel car.

Of course there are conflicting details in those articles. One claims 8lb of fuel total, the other 8lb in each of 3 tanks.