New driving lights...which ones?

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Originally Posted by DrDeath

My 2 shillings worth for the OP if I may gentlepeople:
LED inserts in existing luminaires don’t comply and are illegal because the reflectors aren’t designed to throw the light appropriately. They blind oncoming Old Farts, confound your insurance and attract the Constabulary.
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That's why I recommended the Philips globes to the OP. The design of the 'bulb' is similar/same to a standard H4 globe(with the shielding).
Works perfect in the H4 insert of a H4 headlight assembly.
No experience with the other design types, but I'd say Philips would produce the same quality of design as with the one I recommended to the OP.
Note that Philips aren't the only ones that make that properly designed LED insert too tho. The JW Speaker link that beeutey also posted is of a similar type, so will work correctly too.

So they can be had .. just that they cost more than the cheapie $20 LED inserts that infest an ebay search.

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Originally Posted by DrDeath

... The health implications of high temp lighting are at best irrelevant and at worst, of far less import than poor lighting’s potential for fatigue, hitting animals, hitting fixed objects, driving off the road, getting cranky, burning the snags, divorce, or heaven forbid hurting our Landy, etc etc.
Any interference with our biological clocks can only be a good thing, if we’re doing any significant time behind the wheel at night.
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Yeah, that boat sailed over 100 years ago with the invention of the easily switched on artificial light.
Humans circadian rhythms have been altered forever now ... since the the mass uptake of the electric light bulb ... and there's no going back now.

As for the durability of LED lights. In reality they're not a lot different to most other light sources. Mainly due to their designs and their integration into current systems.
That is, they are natively 2-3volt devices, but we run them in 12-24-whatever other voltage system.
So they need electronic sub systems to integrate properly into our current systems .. resistors, diodes, god knows what else they need for whatever purpose.
It's those sub systems that fail. So whilst the led chip with it's lack of filament sounds more durable, and unlikely to fail .. that's not the end of the story! [tonguewink]

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Originally Posted by AK83

That's why I recommended the Philips globes to the OP. The design of the 'bulb' is similar/same to a standard H4 globe(with the shielding).
Works perfect in the H4 insert of a H4 headlight assembly.
No experience with the other design types, but I'd say Philips would produce the same quality of design as with the one I recommended to the OP.
Note that Philips aren't the only ones that make that properly designed LED insert too tho. The JW Speaker link that beeutey also posted is of a similar type, so will work correctly too.
So they can be had .. just that they cost more than the cheapie $20 LED inserts that infest an ebay search.

As for the durability of LED lights. In reality they're not a lot different to most other light sources. Mainly due to their designs and their integration into current systems.
That is, they are natively 2-3volt devices, but we run them in 12-24-whatever other voltage system.
So they need electronic sub systems to integrate properly into our current systems .. resistors, diodes, god knows what else they need for whatever purpose.
It's those sub systems that fail. So whilst the led chip with it's lack of filament sounds more durable, and unlikely to fail .. that's not the end of the story! [tonguewink]

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Whilst those thoughts are thoughtfully thought out ... LEDs used in traditional QH headlights are still too bright, spread incorrectly, non compliant, illegal and give your insurer excuses to excuse themselves from paying out, help the blueys fill their quotas and give the fellow in the wig a jolly good excuse to ensconce you in the brig.

Technically, heat is the main killer of LEDs, and even a modest and commonly accepted manufacturer’s goal of 70℃ reduces their lifespan dramatically. Whereas quartz hal’s happily get all toasty (that’s how they work), H4 headlights are not designed to adequately dissipate the heat produced by a 25 watt LED element. Virtually all of that 25 watts of heat has to try and escape via the narrow alloy billet then out that tiny hole in the back side (?!), which impossibility causes the LED elements to run far too hot, decreasing life and reliability. The dicky little heat sinks and even dickier little fans are not built to cope with the heat, dirt, vibration, oil or Mr Murphy’s daughters.

The 3 expensive sets I bought from a reputable specialist automotive electrical supplier were all poorly designed and (unbeknownst to the supplier’s techs) all had their high beams ‘detuned’ to just a few milliamperes above the low beam input current, to sneak them past Strayan labelling rules.

Be worth having a look to see if Philips made the entire LED assemblies you mentioned, or if they simply made the actual LED elements used in the assemblies. My experience is that Philips don’t make the whole things, but that Philips (and other high quality brand) LEDs are used by lots of manufacturers of lighting devices - some of very high quality and some of shonky, toy or non vital indicator grade (the latter often using the batches of elements downgraded in the testing phases).

Philips interestingly continues to put a good deal of effort into QH globe design and production.

I’m sorry to be a pain in the back side of all our headlights, but LED lights are indeed fundamentally different to all other light sources. They are simply diodes that emit more visible light energy than standard rectifier diodes. Diodes are the earliest and longest developed semiconductor devices, and are extremely robust if treated sensibly. They started out as ‘cats whisker’ detectors in the late 1800s and have evolved via crystal sets, radios and TVs and massive industrial AC and DC power transmission and control systems. They hide inside every vehicle alternator in existence, tolerating engine heat and vibration with pretty impressive durability - try keeping a filament or discharge device going in those circumstances.

Although you’re quite right in saying that white lighting grade LEDs drop around 3.5 volts across their terminals, they are always connected 3 together to form 10.5 volt (or sometimes 4/14volt, 5/17.5volt etc) arrays or elements. This is no different to changing incandescent filament sizes and lengths to suit different voltages, and the whole array is a theoretically and technically true 10.5volt, 21volt or other voltage rated device, not a collection of individual low voltage devices. The arrays are built to match the intended system (ie. 12, 24, 48, 240 or any other voltage), just like a filament globe. Their power supplies then don’t have to drop the supply way down to 3.5volts, but just a few volts or so.

Just like any other past, present and future electronic device, LEDs need appropriate power control systems to ensure they operate as intended. Traditional bulbs require particular gas mixtures, suspension techniques, filament materials, envelope materials (eg quartz glass) sizes and voltages, and sources of suitable power. LED power supplies also conform to the universal rules that the cooler they run, the longer they last, and that ‘you get what you pay for’.

LED power supplies don’t actually have to control the voltage (electrical ‘pressure’), but the current (or ‘volume’ of electricity). They do that by simply switching the power supply on and off at a very high rate (perhaps 30,000 to 1,000,000 times a second), to control the ‘average’ current flowing through the LED array. As these switches are either on or off, they lose very little energy and produce very little heat. The LED supply components are relatively simple and robust (coils, capacitors, heavy duty diodes and transistors, and a simple oscillator device), and operate better and longer the more they are cooled.

The common theme here is that LEDs and their power supplies are highly durable and tolerant of oil, vibration, water, voltage fluctuations, switching and neglect, but they work and last much longer the cooler they are kept. The most important things to consider when casting about for LED spotties then are the build quality, and heatsinking or heat dissipating structures. Look for heavy bodied housings and lots of prominent fins. Separate power supplies are OK, but they introduce potential electrical and connection problems that an inbuilt supply doesn’t.

Hope some of this is useful.

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Originally Posted by DrDeath

Whilst those thoughts are thoughtfully thought out ... LEDs used in traditional QH headlights are still too bright, spread incorrectly, non compliant, illegal and give your insurer excuses to excuse themselves from paying out, help the blueys fill their quotas and give the fellow in the wig a jolly good excuse to ensconce you in the brig.

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Illegal ? .. probably .. I couldn't find out if they had ADR approval.
Bright... yes!, but not spread incorrectly.

Mate of mine a few years ago asked me if I thought LED inserts for headlights were any good, as opposed to a replacement round light assembly which cost a small fortune.
He wanted it for his harley, can't remember the exact size, maybe 5-7" round.
I told him NO!.. he got one anyhow. Cost him (back then) about $40-50. Waste of money. Only threw light out to about 5m, scattered all over the place.
Those LEDs now cost about $2.
They're the type you're referring too as spread incorrectly.
The pattern it cast on the wall at the depot was hilarious. Needless to say he replaced it with the standard globe immediately

The properly designed 'shielded' H4 LED types work as QH H4 globes do. Spread is perfect, but brighter and where the halogen fades out, the LED is more defined at it's end.
I'm pretty sure the Philips use 13.5w for each of the low and hi circuits. I suspect most of these types of LED designs that are stated to be 25w, will all have the same real output too tho.
That is 25W in total is for both led chip circuits, so the maximum output from each headlight at any one time is only 12.5w.
As for heat within the headlight assembly .. zero! That is compared to the halogen, the heat on the headlight glass surface with a halogen can be felt by hand, with the LEDs now it's always stone cold.
Even the heatsink on the LED could only ever be described as 'luke warm', and even that warmth could be coming from the engine bay.

On my D2a I have a set of Narva H7 55w "Intense" globes in the low beam lights and a set of H7 LED globes in my high beam lights (I can't remember the brand).
The Narva +30 globes are much better than the original globes they replaced and the LED globes are Far brighter than the original globes AND the Narva +30's and they do no "Scatter" the light and perform perfectly in the D2a lenses.
I also have 2x 9" LED spots and a 32" lightbar fitted to the bullbar that have separate switches and they extinguish when low beam is selected.

The original lighting on my D2a was OK But with the Narva +30's, H7 LED globes, 9"spots and lightbar all burning at the same time it is like comparing chalk to cheese.
The LED lights may be too bright/harsh for some people But I like them and don't have any problems with their brightness.

Different LED colors are actually more damaging than others; blue spectrum LED lights tend to be more detrimental to the retina and vision, particularly in older individuals who are already prone to macular tissue breakdown, cataracts, and oxidisation of those tissues. Particular care should be taken when exposed to blue spectrum LED lights.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...018/05/148.jpg

Ignoring the impact on Circadian rhythms - already destroyed by mobile devices [emoji6] there is strong evidence that exposure to powerful sources of these blue wavelengths are doing damage (retinal debris).

We express colour of light using collated colour temperature (CCT) - The problem with CCT as a metric is that it doesn't convey enough information because a color is really a blend of many wavelengths.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...018/05/149.jpg

What is even more important for a driving light - is CRI.
In the image above you can see 2 examples where the CRI varies by 20 points (the higher providing better ability to discern objects against similar coloured backgrounds).

WHATEVER your choice of lighting - make sure you get the best CRI you can... no point lighting up the area in front of you if you can’t pick out the Kangaroo from the Bush right next to the road!

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Originally Posted by Tombie

..... What is even more important for a driving light - is CRI.
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So what of the common street lighting found on almost every freeway around the country(actually the world!) that have the most abysmal CRI in everyday lighting.

If CRI was used as an important metric for lighting why is there no public outcry on it's usage.

Fact is humans can't distinguish a CRI difference of 20 points, and 80 is a common value for many white LED lights(where incandescent bulbs are set at 100).
You can get LED bulbs that are rated to 98 if need be, but LED headlight bulb makers don't bother with them .. for a simple reason that it's not important!

If CRI as a light used for driving conditions is so important to anyone, contact your local MP and get them to start the process of changing all those horrid yellow lights on freeways!


[bighmmm]

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Originally Posted by AK83

Illegal ? .. probably .. I couldn't find out if they had ADR approval.
Bright... yes!, but not spread incorrectly.

Only threw light out to about 5m, scattered all over the place.
They're the type you're referring too as spread incorrectly.

The properly designed 'shielded' H4 LED types work as QH H4 globes do. Spread is perfect, but brighter and where the halogen fades out, the LED is more defined at it's end.
I'm pretty sure the Philips use 13.5w for each of the low and hi circuits.

As for heat within the headlight assembly .. zero! That is compared to the halogen, the heat on the headlight glass surface with a halogen can be felt by hand, with the LEDs now it's always stone cold.
Even the heatsink on the LED could only ever be described as 'luke warm', and even that warmth could be coming from the engine bay.

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Sorry Arthur, but young blokes putting LEDs in their incandescent headlights and blinding everyone is becoming increasingly common round Tamworth, and is one of my Old Farts pet peeves.

I’m a mad LED advocate, and every other globe in my Disco is now an LED (stop, tail, side, dash, interior, reverse etc). But I tried 3 high quality H4 sets in my headlights, and they all failed the lighting, nuisance, construction and operation tests miserably. I have about 30 or 40 x 100watt quartz halogens worth of LED spotties out front though, going strong after 5 years of frequent use and lots of switching on and off.

I’ve drilled deep into the ADRs, and LED replacements in QH headlights are absolutely illegal, for very good reason.

LED arrays by their nature cover a much larger area than a small tungsten filament. Whereas a very small and very bright filament can be very accurately directed by the reflector inside the globe, LEDs can’t. Unless they’ve changed fundamentally in the last year or so (which judging by the industry journals, the ads and the blinding I keep getting from the locals, they haven’t), you’ll notice there’s no sharp cut off across in front, or left hand upswept beam to cover the verge.

It’s a bit like putting a 300mm reflector behind a 1200mm flouro globe; it directs a good beam forward, but lots of light leaks around and about, so there’s no sharp cutoff to shade the wife’s eyes so she can watch tele.

The 3 good quality LEDs I trialled all turned out to carefully misrepresent the outputs on the specs and packaging. They cited low beam of 2800 lumens, high beam an extra 3000 lumens, total of about 6000 lumens, but it turned out that the high beams were ‘detuned’ to provide only an extra 200 lumens, about the same as a small torch. That was the ‘3000’ extra lumens they cited for high beam. The importer came back to advise that “yes, obviously”, they do that to comply with the ADRs, so they can’t get sued. You’ll notice a warning on every box that they’re intended only for ‘off road use’.

There certainly won’t be any heat on the glass front, as LEDs throw lots of light, but very little heat. They do produce quite a lot of heat in the chips themselves though (a 24 watt LED H4 will throw out roughly 2400lumens of visible light and create roughly 24 watts of heat in the chip - about the same as a medium soldering iron). Your observation that the rear heat sinks only run warm is because the aluminium billets that hold the LED arrays are quite narrow and long, and can’t conduct much heat away from the chips, so only a bit of the heat is dissipated out back.

In a simulated headlight setup on the test bench, my good quality H4 LED ‘globes’ ran at about 90℃ at the arrays (very hot), 65℃ at the rear heat sinks (warm). A moving vehicle may provide a bit of extra ventilation, but the fanned air I tested under made no difference to the array temps. 90℃ is really hard on semiconductors, and will vastly increase the chances of premature failure. LEDs don’t ‘wear out’, but will fail completely and unpredictably when they’ve had enough. Semiconductor (LED) failures occur statistically and unpredictably like a lottery, so that they might quit today or in 5 years time. Increasing their running temps is like buying lots of extra tickets in the lottery - it increases your chances of ‘winning’ the LED failure game, but doesn’t guarantee it.

Hope that info is useful to someone.

I hear you on the low CRI being acceptable for on the road use; Perhaps because the road is so much more predictable? Ecspecially modern freeways and roads that have reflective lines. Because discerning close-but-different colours is not crucial to the on-road driving. All the steering wheel attendant needs to be able to do is immediately discern the colours of road signs and markings, footpath from foliage, and other such significant differences. Various kinds of outback and off-road driving present different requirements, such as the rock vs sand vs Fauna. Freeways don’t often have a Kangaroo (grey) standing next to a green-grey Bit of foliage.

That does not necessarily mean HID or LED CRI is inadequate for those tasks, nor does it mean halogen lights are necessarily better for those tasks - it does however highlight that currently (and technology is improving). Most LEDs being used on lighting for vehicles is very poor CRI and CCT! Most LEDs are sub 60 and even high end HID is only 65-80 CRI.

Total output (within reason) matters little compared to CRI. "Those in the know" are smart to sacrifice total lumens in favor of increased CRI. Lumens provide a **** factor, but high CRI makes light useful.

It is the ability to descent those little variations in colour, offroad especially that can make or break you...

There’s benefits with low CCT, high CRI in terms of reduced pupil constriction due to lack of blue which aids distance vision at night and the narrowing of the spectrum, especially with a wide pupil, this can enhance focus on distant objects.

Higher CCT tends to worsen and lower CCT tends to lessen discomfort glare for any given intensity; this means if CCT is lower the intensity can be greater without a perceived increase in glare, which in turn means greater safety performance.

Interesting discussion. Learning a lot. Thanks.
So does this mean all LED headlights are either illegal or a bad idea?
Is it better to just go with +30 standard bulbs?
Trying to decide if there would be any benefit in upgrading my headlights to LEDs. Advice appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

Different LED colors are actually more damaging than others; blue spectrum LED lights tend to be more detrimental to the retina and vision, particularly in older individuals who are already prone to macular tissue breakdown, cataracts, and oxidisation of those tissues. Particular care should be taken when exposed to blue spectrum LED lights.

Ignoring the impact on Circadian rhythms - already destroyed by mobile devices [emoji6] there is strong evidence that exposure to powerful sources of these blue wavelengths are doing damage (retinal debris).

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Dead right Mr Tombie.
Using powerful LED lighting in close proximity, like overhead lights, reading lamps and computer screens is demonstrably destructive.
(we tend to get white LEDs by mixing blue and yellow chips on the array by the way)

LED vehicular lighting however only exposes us to minuscule levels of these wavelengths via reflection from generally matte surfaces a long way away. By the time the photons leave the headlamp, scattering far and wide across the countryside, only a tiny proportion reflect back into our eyes.

I don’t know what the relative figures would be, but I suspect that walking outside to the postbox and back would expose our eyes to more harmful radiation from the sun than a year’s worth of driving behind LED spotties.

Sunlight is composed of massive quantities of visible, infrared, ultraviolet, gamma rays, xrays, neutrinos, and lots of other nortyrays, so a microscopic dose of blue light is in reality quite insignificant. Much more important to wear hats, long sleeves and sunnies outside, rather than worry about the minuscule exposure from behind driving lamps.

Has anyone got any figures for LED vs QH longevity in their vehicles ?
I’d love to know how they compare in the field.