Thread: Disco engine meltdown

Originally posted by PhilipA
Ahem. He says V8.
This is a well known problem with the latest V8s.

It is almost always an exhaust valve which sticks due to hard carbon accumulating on the valve stem, not really insufficient oil.
The 4.0 /4.6 was the first V8 to have teflon type seals on the exhaust valves which reduces the oil consumption, and they have oil impregnated valve guides ( which do not work too well)
Fixes
More common on engines which are not worked hard, so give her a long trip every now and then.
Less a problem when synthetic oil used, eg Mobil 1
Maybe injector /chamber cleaner but whether this cleans exhaust valve stems is debatable.

When its rebuilt get them to delete the seals on the exhaust valve guides and just use umbrella seals.
I have rebuilt my 3.9 heads with a teflon seal on the inlet and no seal on the exhaust ( as the vacuum is on the inlet stem). Oil consumption of Mobil 1 is about 500 CC per 5,000KM, which I think is acceptable.

Better than a stuck valve anyway.

By the way even my 3.9 heads when they came off at 100,000KM had a couple of exhaust valves which were a bit iffy, not stuck but not free either, so it affects even older models

Regards Philip A

Except Mobil 1 isnt synthetic :wink:

Mobil got raked over the coals for that a while ago!!!!

Cheers
Mike

Originally posted by tombraider
Except Mobil 1 isnt synthetic :wink:

Mobil got raked over the coals for that a while ago!!!!

It isn't? Do you mean I was paying top dollar for a non-synthetic?

Ron

OOps.... My info is outdated

Seems Mobil has changed to true synthetic

Its WAS Synthetic fortified.

This came up a long time ago on another board.

However, its a good oil and latest research has found pure synthetics aren't as good as we we're led to believe.

Blended (Lab/Dino) lubricants combine the best properties of both.

But yeah, Mobil was forced to clarify themselves a while ago as Mobil 1 did cover their blended range too.

Apologies to everyone

Cheers
Mike

Originally posted by p38arover
A fellow LROC member has just had a new engine fitted into his pre-2000 TD5 - the original cracked the block. Apparently, this isn't uncommon for early TD5 engines.

Ron

Do you know how much that cost Ron?

However....

This is a source from the USA:

When full is not full & 100% is not 100%.

Usually when reasonable intelligent people say that something is 100% or Full or Fully (something) then this to other reasonable intelligent people really means that:

"100% means unity or FULL".

Well, not so in the oil industry or more specifically in the Synthetic Lubricant part of it.

"Full" or "Fully" is not really meaning that ALL of it (lubricant) is what it says.

"100% Synthetic" is not really a lie, when less than 100% of the finished product is "Synthetic", because cryptically it relates to something else (Base Oil), and therefore it is the TRUTH.

Except that {or "exclusive of" as they like to say}, it (100%) really does not relate to what you think

– The finished product – such as Motor Oil.

Here then is the expose, and the sorted details that are the norm in the Synthetic Lubricant Business.



The case of the "carrier oil".

Example:

Back labels of Mobil 1 products for many years had following:
" * exclusive of carrier oil" statement in substantially smaller print.

While at the same time the front label declared the Mobil 1 as:
"100% Synthetic * ". in really large print.

If you are a good detective you’ll notice that the statement on the Front label ends with an asterisk (*) and the statement on the Back label starts with an asterisk (*).

If you are really good, you’ll figure out that the asterisks are the magical "glue" that connects the two together and that what should be understood is:



" 100 % Synthetic, exclusive of carrier oil ".



Well, that is only the beginning of our decoding mission. When asked, majority of consumers has absolutely no idea what "carrier oil" is, or what the meaning of "exclusive of" really is.

So if you are totally confused at this point, do not despair, soon you shall be enlightened with a wisdom worthy of CLS (Certified Lubrication Specialist).

First, however, you have to either consult you dictionary (a technical one with specialties in oil industry well defined), or just have to take our word for it.

The usual suspects are: Additive, Base Oil, Base Stock, Carrier Oil, "exclusive of", Petroleum, Process Oil and Synthetic.





Additive

An agent used for imparting new, or for improving existing characteristics of lubricating oils or greases.

Base Oil

A base oil is a base stock or blend of base stocks used in engine oil, gear oil or ATF.

Base Stock

A base stock is a mineral hydrocarbon or synthetic lubricant component that is produced by a single manufacturer (independent of crude source or manufacturing location), that meets the same manufacturer’s specification, and that is identified by a unique formula, product identification number, or both.

Carrier Oil

Oil (Petroleum), usually solvent neutral or process oil, used to "carry" or dissolve and/or disperse additives, which would otherwise be too viscous or even solid, and therefore not easily mixed with the Base Stock Oil.

"exclusive of"

preposition

Not containing, devoid off, except for

Not including or considering

Petroleum

Petroleum = From Latin Petra (Rock) and Oleum (Oil) therefore meaning "Rock Oil" the term is commonly used to describe products made from "Crude Oil".

Conventional motor oil

Oil that is refined from crude oil that has been pumped from the ground and which contains naturally occurring components such as:
sulfur and sulfur compounds, reactive hydrocarbons and other "contaminants" that can not be completely and economically removed from petroleum, and thus end up in conventional motor oil Basestock.

Process oil

Oil not used for lubrication, but as a component of another materiel, or as a carrier of other products, such as additives.

Synthetic

Of, involving, or using synthesis

Produced by synthesis; specially: produced by chemical synthesis, rather than of natural origin

Not real or genuine; artificial [synthetic lubricant]

Something synthetic; specially, a substance produced by chemical synthesis

Man-made, not occurring in nature

[French synthétique < Greek synthetikos]

Synthetic oils

Oils produced by "synthesis" (chemical reaction) rather than by extraction or conventional refinement.

Oils that previously were NOT considered as "synthetic" such as those that are produced by "severe refining", "hydrogenation" or other complex chemical processes that yield a more stable molecular uniformity and higher degree of purity that is not achievable through normal "conventional" refining process are NOW also labeled as "synthetic" by their respective producers (SHELL, ExxonMobil, BP, SUNOCO) - they however still are made from Petroleum Crude.

These "quasi-synthetics" are almost as good as PAO but much cheaper.

Patience, please, the ultimate truth will be revealed soon!



Read the definitions several times and try to understand!

OK here is the reasoning for:



" 100 % Synthetic, exclusive of carrier oil ".



The "100% Synthetic" relates to the Base Oil or Base Stock, it and only it (the Base Stock) is synthetically made. In case of Mobil 1, it was originally PAO (Poly-alpha-olefin).

The "exclusive of carrier oil" means in English that the Carrier or the Process Oil that is used to "carry" the additives is not synthetic oil and therefore, the final product (Motor Oil)
is NOT 100% Synthetic, even though the Base Oil is 100% Synthetic.



GOT THAT ?



Well then, what does Mobil (now ExxonMobil) have to say about that ?

Q: Is Mobil 1 a fully synthetic oil?

Yes, it’s 100% synthetic. The base stocks used in blending Mobil 1 are all "chemically constructed" instead of being simply segregated out of crude oil like conventional mineral oils.

Q: Then why does it say it contains a petroleum carrier for additives?

All motor oils contain additives that provide extra protection against wear, corrosion and engine deposits. These additives are usually high molecular weight materials – sometimes even solids. Conventional carrier oil is used to make these additives soluble. All motor oils will contain some of this carrier oil, usually only amounting to a small percentage of the finished product.

Source of above Questions and Answers is www.mobil.com and Mobil 1 promotional literature from 1999.


Cheers
Mike (see not totally insane)

But wait... Theres more:

Almost Synthetic is Synthetic even when it is Petroleum.

Well, if you think that Mobil or (ExxonMobil now) is less than honest, or even down right deceptive, that is not the worst of it.

Many other brands of Synthetics (Shell, Castrol, Amsoil, etc.) are NOT fully "synthetic" at all, at least by the definition used for years by chemists in all chemical companies around the World.

Some years ago SHELL in Europe and specifically in then West Germany introduced Motor Oils that were manufactured from UHVI Petroleum Base stock that although made from conventional crude oil, was subjected to additional processing not common on "normal" or "typical" Base Oil production. These (UHVI = Ultra High Viscosity Index) Base Stock containing Motor Oils were labeled by SHELL as "Synthetic".

Companies like MOTUL, MOBIL, AGIP in their respective markets did not like that labeling one bit, because the SHELL "synthetic" products were sold for substantially less then their own Brands of "Synthetic" Labeled products.

So years of lawsuits court orders, appeals, contra-suits clogged the courts of several European countries. At different times and in different countries contrary decisions or judgements were made. What was "synthetic" in one country on one day was "not synthetic" in another country at the same time. A real confusion for a region of globe that aimed to "unify" in the near future and become one great continent of "EURO".

What finally evolved from all this confusion was that the label term "Synthetic" is a marketing term, and therefore it is up to the "marketer" of the oil, to define what "synthetic" is.

AHA !!!

So now anytime you subject conventional petroleum oil to any unconventional process or reaction, irrespective of if it works (improves) or not the Base Oil, you can for all practical purposes call it "synthetic" i.e., Man-made.

SAE which had in its lubricant specifications not only definitions of what constitutes a "synthetic" but also a list of specific chemicals used as lubricants that were considered "synthetic".

Although SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) is US based organization, it aims at Global reach, and having one standard in the USA and yet another in most of Europe was deemed as bad as having English and Metric standards of measurements (at the same time).

The decision was made to go along with Europe (after all Metric is better), and as a result all reference to "synthetic" in respect to lubricants was deleted from ALL future SAE publications of SAE Standards relating to Lubricants.

Since SAE is a non-profit organization of Engineers, it had no desire nor financial might to involve itself in never ending lawsuits with mighty oil and chemical companies, so the simple "deletion" of all references to "synthetic" was perhaps the best and easiest decision.

When opportunity is there, it is only natural that some one will seize it.

It was CASTROL with their Syntec® Synthetic Motor Oil, which when first introduced up until December 1997 it was formulated with PAO sourced from Mobil.

In January 1998 CASTROL started to use much cheaper hydroprocessed petroleum base oils from SHELL. Mobil lost the opportunity to sell PAO to CASTROL.

Mobil Oil complained to National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus, which in April 1999 finally ruled in CASTROL favor, specifically allowing Syntec® Motor Oil made from SHELL XHVI slack wax stream to be sold and promoted as "synthetic".

To celebrate the victory, CASTROL Company spokesperson said:

"CASTROL is proud to be a major worldwide provider of synthetic formulated lubricants, and looks forward to continued participation in this exciting market. CASTROL is committed to upgrading its products and producing the highest quality synthetic engine oils. We will continue to explore ways to ensure that Syntec® remains a leading performer in the synthetic category"

WOW, someone missed their calling to be a Politician !!!

So now "synthetic" can be marketed as "synthetic" even if it is not a "synthetic"!

A slight clue that as good as "synthetic" is really not all that good, can be found on www.castrol.com , when the recommended oil change interval for CASTROL Syntec® Fully Synthetic Motor Oil is: 3,000 miles or 3 months – just the same as for ordinary conventional Petroleum Motor Oil.

A PENNZOIL with PENNZANE® is not any better and PENNZOIL claims are downright deceptive. The PENNZANE® which is touted as "developed for and used by NASA" has bee actually developed for used in vacuum pumps, and computer drives. It was never intended for or ever used in any engine! PENNZANE® in its pure form costs about $400.00 per US quarts.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that in the Consumer version of the "synthetic" motor oil that sells for under $4.00 there is about a drop of PENNZANE® in 5 Gallons !

The Back Label of PENNZOIL "Synthetic" with PENNZANE® also instructs the user to: "change motor oil EVERY 3,000 miles for best performance" !

Why then it costs four times as much conventional Petroleum Motor Oil if it is not all that much better, and definitely does not last in service any longer?

Someone has to PAY extra premium for the "synthetic" on the label, even if the content is not "synthetic".

Cheers
Mike

and someone said a long time ago ........ "oils aint oils Sol!".......

Originally posted by barryj
and someone said a long time ago ........ "oils aint oils Sol!".......

Said John Bluthal (Boss) to Max Cullen (Sol)

And they still ain't ...it seems.