synthetic oils

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11th November 2006, 08:24 AM
Bush65

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEFENDERZOOK

...if you change the oil before it breaks down and starts to lose its qualities....i dont think it really matters which oil is used...

Not necessarily so. Maybe if you only do short, stop, start runs!

Rick130 had some info from a transport company that showed reduced wear/extended life from engines using synthetic oils.
12th November 2006, 07:47 AM
rick130

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladas

Redline use a Polyol Ester base stock, which are generally good

...............but are extremely hygroscopic - which means they asborb moisture/water like a sponge - typically a Poly oil will have a KFindex of greater than 5000 ppm, compaired to a simple mineral that would have a KFindex of <60 ppm.

When Poly oils absorb moisture the properties change, they begin to emusify and in the end turn into Goo

Only in refrigeration oils due to the need for no moisture content to begin with, they are able to balance them OK for road vehicle use. Tim Slako, the Redline Importer has some clients running their 15W-40 oil for 100,000km OCI's (using by-pass filtration) up to the Pilbarara and back.

I've been using Mobil Delvac 1 for years with excellent results and extended drains (UOA to back it up) and is less than 1/2 the price of Redline.
12th November 2006, 07:52 AM
rick130

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRHybrid100

the older motors - like the Rover V8 needs a heavier oil, as the oil galleries are larger compared to newer engines - so have been told not to use Mobile 1 in a Rover V8 motor.

????? so Mobil 1 5w-50 is thinnner than anyone elses 20w-50 ??
Am I going to have to post the SAE viscosity charts again... :rolleyes:

Quote:

in the search of more space in newer motors they reduced the galleries so run thinner oils - just like the TD5 does.

my recommendation would be Penrite - would never touch Castrol again, great marketing but poor products!!! I now run completely Penrite Synth / Semi synth in my Rangie Tdi Auto.

Just my 10c worth

LRH

Castrol make some excellent lubes, their synthetic (as in PAO/ester, not group III as some like Penrite use) gear oils are excellent
12th November 2006, 08:09 AM
rick130

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bush65

Not necessarily so. Maybe if you only do short, stop, start runs!

Rick130 had some info from a transport company that showed reduced wear/extended life from engines using synthetic oils.

yes. Doug Hillary runs a fleet of trucks out of Queensland, and is an industry consultant on lubrication. His entire fleet runs synthetic lubes throughout.
Delvac 1 in the engines (DD60 Series) using Mann-Hummel centrifuges (just like the TD5) and 30 micron cleanable stainless baskets in place of the full flow filters. They removed the Donaldson ELF (synthetic media) filtrers as they never got dirty !
Their $ break even point when going to D1 was 96,000km compared to 25-3000km on conventional oils.
Used oil analysis is used to monitor the oils condition and they have developed limits on soot %, TBN (total base number, the oils reserve alkilinity, used to combat acidity) TAN (total acid number), oxidation, etc.
His fleet average OCI (oil change interval) last time I spoke to him (12 months ago) was a bit over 100000km on the engines. They have also since eliminated the need for valve train adjustments every 250,000km.

MTU in Brisbane pulled down one of his engines twelve months ago at an industry demonstration after travelling 1,000,000km. Internally very clean (minimal sludge) and all tolerances were within new spec !

He also runs Castrol and Mobil synthetic oils throughout the driveline. They don't have any final drive or (oil lubed ;) ) hub problems, including seals. He made a point of saying that the seals now generally last till they dispose of the units.
He also said that the Road Rangers no longer need re-racing at around the 400,000km mark as they did 15 years ago, but this could also be due to better QA from the manufacturer.
12th November 2006, 08:19 AM
Bigbjorn

Three or four years ago, there was a series of technical articles in "Skinned Knuckles" magazine (U.S.) on automotive oils by a lubrication engineer. He stated that there were only four refineries in the USA making lubricating oils and all brands came from these four, and the difference in most cases were the labels. He said to look at the API rating, not the marketing blurb.
12th November 2006, 08:30 AM
rick130

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Hjelm

Three or four years ago, there was a series of technical articles in "Skinned Knuckles" magazine (U.S.) on automotive oils by a lubrication engineer. He stated that there were only four refineries in the USA making lubricating oils and all brands came from these four, and the difference in most cases were the labels. He said to look at the API rating, not the marketing blurb.

Hmmm. while a lot of the small players have to buy their base stocks from the big guys like ExxonMobil and Chevron-Texaco, there's a vast difference in how they are blended and the additive packages used, and yes, if you compare and use the latest API/ACEA rating it will be a very good oil for the normal user.
12th November 2006, 08:35 AM
Captain_Rightfoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick130

Hmmm. while a lot of the small players have to buy their base stocks from the big guys like ExxonMobil and Chevron-Texaco, there's a vast difference in how they are blended and the additive packages used, and yes, if you compare and use the latest API/ACEA rating it will be a very good oil for the normal user.

I don't have access to the oil testing facilities that you do.

So, when I tried to standardise on a oil for the MINI and the defender I found a cheap fully synthetic (Shell Helix) and wrote down the API code for the oil. Rang both Land Rover and MINI and got the specs and the oil exceeded them. The Shell is BMW longlife approved so it's ok to do the 2 year stint in the MINI although I didn't ever leave it that long. Interestingly, most of the full synthetic oils I looked at had the same rating. :)

Please comment Rick :)
12th November 2006, 09:05 AM
LoadedDisco

I have used Mobil 1 twice and have found it fantastic.
The first car I owned was a holden with a 308 V8 and after a month of owning it I changed the oil from a normal oil to Mobil 1. It ran better and harder. Back in the old days 10 - 15 years ago we used to drive up to QLD raceway once a month for the drags.
I tried my hardest to destroy this motor so I had an excuse to upgrade to a bigger V8. I would hammer up to QLD raceway with the V8 flat to the floor revving its nuts out and the motor would not let go, It used to be a quick trip up there luck there never used to be Police around back then and bugger all speed cameras either they where the fun days, wouldn't do it now.
The second time using Mobile 1 is with the 2004 Disco that has done 58000 and running better than when I picked it up with 24Km on the clock.
Funny the only two cars I have owned that have not leaked oil where the cars I have run Mobil 1 in the engine. I have owned 4 other new cars and all leaked oil.
12th November 2006, 09:09 AM
rick130

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

I don't have access to the oil testing facilities that you do.

yes you can, just 'pays your money' like I do ;)

Quote:

So, when I tried to standardise on a oil for the MINI and the defender I found a cheap fully synthetic (Shell Helix) and wrote down the API code for the oil. Rang both Land Rover and MINI and got the specs and the oil exceeded them. The Shell is BMW longlife approved so it's ok to do the 2 year stint in the MINI although I didn't ever leave it that long. Interestingly, most of the full synthetic oils I looked at had the same rating. :)

Please comment Rick :)

should be fine.
I've standardised on final drive and engine oil and coolants between our Nissan and Landy, just the gearboxes use a different viscosity. Makes life a lot easier.
12th November 2006, 09:36 AM
rick130

Quote:

Originally Posted by incisor

i read something un-nice about mobil 1, something that has changed recently, but i cant for the life of me remember what the hell it was..... geez i hate that...... maybe at 3 tomorrow morning i will wake up with it in mind :P

<snip>

Tom Schaeffer, VP of HATCO Corporation in the US, one of the largest producers of lubricating esters (group V synthetics) in the US posted on an oil discussion board the surprising results of some Gas Cromatograph work he did two weeks ago on Mobil 1 5W-50 EP (long drain, 'extended performance', not available here) which in his interpretation showed a predominance of Group III (severely hydrocracked mineral oil) as the base oil. They regularly test main stream oils to keep up with what the big and not so big players are currrently doing. Poor bugger thought it was on a tiny little discussion board like this one that only a few people would read and that was it. ooops.

Mobil has always claimed the moral high ground that true synthetics are Group IV (PAO) and Group V (esters, PAG, etc) and not Group III. This came about when Castrol in the US substituted Group III for PAO in their Syntec range there over ten years ago and continued to call it 'synthetic' so Mobil took them to court........and lost.

In Europe GIII oils are called 'molecularly converted', 'technosynthese', etc to differentiate them from 'synthetic', but it isn't the case in the US or here, were most 'synthetic' oils are actually severelly refined GIII mineral oils, eg Penrite, Shell, Pennzoil, etc.
This isn't a bad thing, as Shell stated in an article about two years ago that the special oils they blend for the Ferrari F1 engines use a fair bit of Shells GIII oil in it's compostion.

HATCO's test is still only one independent test, and another lab 'expert' reckons it's really hard to tell PAO's from mineral oils using G.C. testing, so who knows ??

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