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Quote:
Originally Posted by incisor
Don't get me wrong I can see that it would work, but you all know what investigations are like, first thing they'll look for is if it's rated second who installed it, then you might get a shock if your insurance is voided
Quote:
Originally Posted by incisor
:blush::blush:
Have to correct myself... just climbed under the car - mine are 16.5 mm thick.
As Inc said they are certainly not mild steel.
The documentation that came with them states :
" the points are rated at 10,000lb in a straight pull."
I can see you are all technically right that they are not stamped "rated " - so are not rated in the eyes of an insurance co.
BUT my policy does include "4x4DE front recovery points" listed as an accessory.
I NEVER do seriously hard snatching any way. As I mentioned in my first post.. if you are stuck that bad - there are other ways to get out. ( that is what the hand winch is for) - and if it is forwards - use a bridle connected to both recovery points.
The Disco II has no other real option for forwards recovery.. so used with care and intelligence I am still quite happy to keep mine..
Mark
Im not sure if it applies to recovery gear but for lifting stuff you must have the maximum safe load clearly marked on the item or clearly documented on the data plate for the vehicle/manual.
In support of that it must have an engineering report to certify the design.
on top of that a certain percent of a batch must be proof loaded to the nominal safe working load and a certain percent of those must be tested to destruction. The ones that fail must fail with a loading of not less than 2 times the nominated SWL for static items that can not, in its intended roll, be subjected to dynamic loadings and five times for items that can be dynamically loaded. ( i havent seen non dynamic lifting stuff yet)
But thats just for lifting gear..
Assuming the same applies to recovery gear if you dont have the above mentioned and something goes wrong, you, the person who fitted it and finally the person who made it can be held liable..
That said, the nominal eleastic break strength of mild steel 10mm in diameter is in the order of 5-10 tons. (thats for cheap and nasty round bar, the stuff you can buy in bunnings or mitre 10).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blknight.aus
Yes Dave it applies to recovery gear.
Bloody hell I made a simple statement then nobody wants to touch this thread
Saved.:D But the recovery hooks you buy at ARB etc arent stamped and neither is your bull bar mounts that you attach a winch to.
on that note heres something funny, I just had me a looksee at my big tifor like handwinch...Quote:
Originally Posted by dobbo
its rated to do a lateral (along the deck) pull of 5 tons and a vertical (going up) pull of 1.5 tons..
so I guess that backs up the recovery gear must be rated.. but Id hazard a guess the "safety margin" isnt as big as for lifting gear..
Given that... at what point does my recovery gear become lifting gear?
up a 45 degree hill? when I use it to lift a vehicle like a crane? If any part of the vehicle gets air under it?
My recovery PAM states all the incline angles and the multiplication factors for this kind of stuff, but some of the stuff thats in the PAM isnt what ID like to have to use a tirfor for...
one example is a 12t truck, bogged to the chassis, with 5/6 wheels siezed and pulling up a 50 degree slope in mud... By the pam you need 800t of pull if you do nothing to reduce the "drag factors"
I enquired about lashing rings for my disco around 6 months ago, they exist, but the pins are either too big to fit though the factory holes in the chassis rails or not long enough to fit through the chassis rails.
http://www.rudchains.com/de/04_ansch...hlagpunkte.pdf
http://www.rudchains.com/en/04_ansch...php?category=5
Stuff like these would do but they do not sell direct to the public, I allready tried
OK, I'll speak up if you so desire guys!
Many moons ago a guy based in Whyalla :) designed a set of high grade SLS spacers for some fellow enthusiasts in the LR scene.
He did it for the fun of it, researched high strength alloys, tested different steels etc to come up with a design that had superior strength, construction and longevity to those being offered.
He sold some to his friends at cost and they became more and more popular as time went on so he made more. This was done in a tin box in his spare time.
One day a guy purchased a set and phoned with some concerns.
"I've got these spacers. They appear to be aluminium?! Is it strong enough? I'm worried about them failing"
"No, they're a composite alloy number XYZ123, rated for this application"
"Oh.. and why a combination of mild and stainless steel in the rest? Wont it break? I'm concerned to put these on my Discovery."
"Nope, the different materials are used due to their physical properties... This for this reason, that for that reason etc. etc..."
"Oh... OK then.... Thanks...." - Phone hangs up.
Cue a week later
Ring, ring "Hi its Michael. I purchased those spacers from you... I'm not convinced of them.. Can I return them?"
"Sure... I'm certain of their capacity, strength etc... I've tested them..And had them tested. But if your unsure then I'll refund your money, just send them back"
"Thanks..."
Well the parts returned and the money refunded.
A week later an obscure name logs onto D2AU selling "4x4de sls spacers"
A total design rip-off using the same materials, only difference being 4 flats machined onto the base to mildly change its shape.
A similar story with the sliders, Stuart @ Rovercraft has Michael try to get a set to copy them... In the end Michael did get some from somewhere and knocked off a copy (except the copy weigh something like 38kg each - too heavy)
And so it continued, 4x4DE duplicated the ARB recover points, then increased the width to compensate for bending.
His bash plate, is a heavy steel version of AMV, Troutbeck and several others....
He states the rating, the rating is the tensile strength of the bolts and the material, based on engineering specs...
He has NOT had them tested by a NATA lab. (The only rated points tested in AU are currently from Bruce Davis.)
On vehicles running these points they must use a bridle, several distortions of the chassis have occurred, however the ARB bar design and some bash plates have relieved some of the stresses by assisting load spreading in between the chassis rails of some vehicles.
Saying, I'm and engineer it'll be fine is all good an well.
Having the products listed on your insurance policy doesnt help...
A non rated product is a non rated product and therefore liable in event of injury.
Being mounted to one side of the rail places enormous stresses on the opposing side, far beyond anything I would consider to be a safe design.
Continue to use them at your discretion, I wouldnt...
I utilise "RUD" rated lifting points as per the ones fitted to AZZKIKR (white disco) several years ago... Mounted correctly they are safe, otherwise JATE rings or rated recover hooks.
Thanks for confirming Tombraider
See I ain't just a pretty face:D
Now can you get the ruds for me cause I cannot purchase them?
Purchase them direct that is, or do you know of wherethey can be purchased from, and what size you used.
Thankyou