Thread: More snake oil?

Originally Posted by CraigE

Some of these things can offer some anecdotal benefits, but not normally enough to warrant the cost. Recently some of the physical laws we have come to take as Gospel have been challenged with interesting results, so who knows in the future.

IMO it's very simple.
If these devices worked, it'd be very easy to prove they worked and at minimal cost to the makers of such devices. Postive results would be everywhere if they existed.
So they either ran those tests and the results didn't fit with the marketing claims (i.e. they didn't work) or there is a massive conspiracy misleading us all.

You choose.

didn't the Cylons use one of those on Battlestar Galactica?

Originally Posted by Dougal

IMO it's very simple.
If these devices worked, it'd be very easy to prove they worked and at minimal cost to the makers of such devices. Postive results would be everywhere if they existed.
So they either ran those tests and the results didn't fit with the marketing claims (i.e. they didn't work) or there is a massive conspiracy misleading us all.

You choose.

I will disagree there. Not all products are as claimed and there are a lot of con artists trying to sell you junk, but there are genuine people that try to improve and better products. I personally know a couple of inventors that have invented some great products but did not have the money to market them so either sold the patents for peanuts or were forced into submission until the patents ran out and then were scooped up by multinationals. My Uncle was one of these and should have been a multi millionaire with the products he invented that are now produced by conglomerates. Just for a national advertising campaign he was quoted $7million, $500k to get it on Burkes Backyard. As a battler in the 60's/70's/80's he was never going to be able to raise the funds to get some of these things off the ground and everyone just wanted to rip his ideas off and did. There is one product that is widely used and promoted as European and should have made him ridiculously rich, but all he got was 10000 pound for the patent in the end after trying for several years to get an investment partner. My Aunty still has several of the prototypes. He died on the pension.Also heard of exhaust recirculation to aid emmissions and fuel consumption, pretty much standard now days, not in the 60s when it was done to an FJ and then an EK
I also know a guy that invented an engine that ran on water / Hydrogen (TAFE engineer) and was bought out by one of the main oil companies for $10million in the mid 80's. Good money yes but the technology has been shelved and patents upkept. I actually saw the prototype when I was about 18, not sure of the specifics but my cousin was as it was his instructor. He retired happy and wealthy.
There are more.
A cynical attitude to new products is not ideal, but neither is absolute faith in what someone says or is spruiking.
Sorry but there are many big companies and persons with agendas that do not match the common good and is in their interest for product to fail.
I could write all night on this subject.
I like to keep an open mind, but not buy snake oil either.
Have another lok in 20 years and I guarantee some of the products you see being rubished now will be accepted as the norm. Australia is one of the worst countries in the world for fostering new and innovative products in the 21st century.

Originally Posted by CraigE

I will disagree there. Not all products are as claimed and there are a lot of con artists trying to sell you junk, but there are genuine people that try to improve and better products. I personally know a couple of inventors that have invented some great products but did not have the money to market them so either sold the patents for peanuts or were forced into submission until the patents ran out and then were scooped up by multinationals. My Uncle was one of these and should have been a multi millionaire with the products he invented that are now produced by conglomerates. Just for a national advertising campaign he was quoted $7million, $500k to get it on Burkes Backyard. As a battler in the 60's/70's/80's he was never going to be able to raise the funds to get some of these things off the ground and everyone just wanted to rip his ideas off and did. There is one product that is widely used and promoted as European and should have made him ridiculously rich, but all he got was 10000 pound for the patent in the end after trying for several years to get an investment partner. My Aunty still has several of the prototypes. He died on the pension.Also heard of exhaust recirculation to aid emmissions and fuel consumption, pretty much standard now days, not in the 60s when it was done to an FJ and then an EK
I also know a guy that invented an engine that ran on water / Hydrogen (TAFE engineer) and was bought out by one of the main oil companies for $10million in the mid 80's. Good money yes but the technology has been shelved and patents upkept. I actually saw the prototype when I was about 18, not sure of the specifics but my cousin was as it was his instructor. He retired happy and wealthy.
There are more.
A cynical attitude to new products is not ideal, but neither is absolute faith in what someone says or is spruiking.
Sorry but there are many big companies and persons with agendas that do not match the common good and is in their interest for product to fail.
I could write all night on this subject.
I like to keep an open mind, but not buy snake oil either.
Have another lok in 20 years and I guarantee some of the products you see being rubished now will be accepted as the norm. Australia is one of the worst countries in the world for fostering new and innovative products in the 21st century.

Can you say "sucker"?

Engines that run on hydrogen are no problem. You could tune almost any spark ignition engine to do it.
But engines that run on water are bull****, if you believe that then you my friend are an advertisers greatest friend.
First law of thermodynamics sunshine. It hasn't been broken yet and in 20 years it still won't be.

Pony up and tell us what your uncle "invented". BTW there's a massive gulf between invention and taking a product to market to make money. People who don't understand this always think they're getting ripped off. Smart people license designs and make a killing.

Originally Posted by Dougal

Can you say "sucker"?

Engines that run on hydrogen are no problem. You could tune almost any spark ignition engine to do it.
But engines that run on water are bull****, if you believe that then you my friend are an advertisers greatest friend.
First law of thermodynamics sunshine. It hasn't been broken yet and in 20 years it still won't be.

Pony up and tell us what your uncle "invented". BTW there's a massive gulf between invention and taking a product to market to make money. People who don't understand this always think they're getting ripped off. Smart people license designs and make a killing.

The engine that ran on water is obviously a little more complicated than just that and as I was 18 at the time and had little mechanical knowledge and did not understand it completely (but water makes hydrogen), but it worked and the gentleman retired a millionaire after being bought out. The story made national headlines in the early 80's. MM funny that people did not believe engines could run on hydrogen a short time ago or there could be a horseless carriage. I suppose you doubt the research into compressed air engines that is taking palce at the momment.
As far as my Uncle goes I have to be careful what I say as there are patents and copyright on some of this stuff, but one is one of the most used water filters in the world, another is a basic gardening tool, exhaust recirculation and others and at this point I could not give a stuff wether you believe me or not, I know the truth after seeing some of this first hand and seeing theoriginal patent doccuments.
I am far from gullible and something needs to be proven to work before I would endorse it. I believe we need to to give people the opportunity to prove their products and just beacause someone says yay or neigh on TV does not make it so.
There are loads of inventions that have never made it into production regardless of wether they work or not or are a great invention. If you are naive enough to believe that multi nationals do not paoch ideas or patents then my friend you need a trip to China and Taiwan.
I am not bitter that my Uncle did not make money form it and neither was he. I did not stand to benefit from it at all.
You could line up 100 scientists to back your claims and point of view as could I or you could line up a thousand and I 1, that does not always make the 1000 scientists right, just paid for their opinion.
I in no way condone snake oil salesman, but we should give people a fair shot to prove their claims.
And yes there is a massive gap between invention and getting it to market. Most inventors are not good businessmen and need help and business partners not parasites.
Look at the international patent laws, if a company finds a product they want and know the inventor can not get it to market they just wait until the patent lapses or if they look like being able to market it buy them out (which can be good). It is a vicious game.
I think it is time to put this to bed and agree to disagree.

CraigE - give me the patent numbers, or his name, and I will look it up. As a scientist/engineer (yeah, one of a 1000), I can tell you that to make an engine run on water, you need to make hydrogen first, by putting in energy in some form (light, electricity or chemical). Newer methods like algae make this more efficient. As someone on the inside (and an inventor), good inventions are often not exploited, but it's generally corporate incompetence that causes it, not some grand conspiracy.

& global warming is real too

/Damien

I'd call steam water.

But that's just being picky.



Cheers
Simon

Originally Posted by CraigE

The engine that ran on water is obviously a little more complicated than just that and as I was 18 at the time and had little mechanical knowledge and did not understand it completely (but water makes hydrogen).

I'm afraid the world (except for the conmen) are in disagreement with you over this one and always will be.
Water does not make hydrogen, water is in fact burn't hydrogen. Trying to run an engine on water will be as successful as setting fire to ashes.

I am an engineer and I often come across people with little technical knowledge spouting off with claims which are physically impossible. In most cases a good grasp of high school physics will show you exactly why these things are doomed to fail.

Some examples.
The 100mpg carburettor.
The 200mpg carburettor.
Magnets around fuel lines.
Fuel catalysts.
Hiclones.
HHO.
Engines that run on water.
Efficiency greater than 100%.
Perpetual motion machines.
etc.

First law of thermodynamics:
You can never win, you can only break even.

Second law of thermodynamics:
You can only break even at absolute zero.

Third law of thermodynamics:
You cannot get to absolute zero.

These laws have never been broken. Many who have claimed to have broken them have been exposed as frauds, the rest, simply mistaken.