Thread: More snake oil?

Originally Posted by Dougal

The laws of thermodynamics are fast and absolute. They have not been broken ever.



*cough*absolutebull*****cough*.

The "inside the box argument" is simply this.
People who have no idea of the limitataions of natural laws, materials and components get ****ed when their half baked ideas are rubbished by those more enlightened. They then label their thinking as "outside the box" to appear more trendy and feel superiour to the people they just lost an argument with.

Well whatever. You are obviously right and everyone else that has a differing opinion is wrong. There would never be any progress if we lived in your little confined world. The Myers Briggs assessment is the most trusted personality profiling test in the world. Is it always 100% correct?no. Is anything? no. Except obviously you.
Also do a bit of a search on how to make hydrogen after your statement that you can not make hydrogen from water. Hydrogen gas can easily be made by using salt water or water and baking soda, a battery and stainless steel. In this process you can also obtain power to run a small motor or lighting circuit. Basic chemistry. Not enough to be useful, but makes it none the less. You actually had me doubting my own memory of this science experiment from high school, but I did look it up again.
Electrolysis of Aqueous Solutions
Am I wrong about things sometimes? Often! Do I care? No. That is how we learn, I have got things wrong many times before I have gotten them right, but I will have a go and learn and push boundries that people say exist. If we all stayed commited to boundries written by someone as a theory we would never evolve. There may be some absolutes but not all.
If you are such a great authority as an engineer prove to me and the rest of the world beyond reasonable doubt that God does or does not exist. All our religious leaders are snake oil salesmen??? (I do think they are but thats another issue). Explain concisely what happens where the universe ends. There is so much we do not know or understand. There are answer to most of these we just need to find them.

craig you seem to be arguing that because all is not 100% known that anything out side the box is possible.

But, in some fields, very much is known to a very high degree of certainty.

This particular case of using water as fuel is one.

The energy that produces the heat and pressure that drives the mechanism of an internal combustion engine comes from the chemistry of combustion.

Chemistry is mostly about electron transfer and bond energies.

H2 and O2 have high bond energies H2O has low bond energy. Bond energy given up as heat and light in combustion

2 H2(g) + O2(g) = 2 H2O(l) + 572 kJ

To get H2 out of water you need to add energy water is not a fuel

[quote=procrastination inc;673382]craig you seem to be arguing that because all is not 100% known that anything out side the box is possible.

But, in some fields, very much is known to a very high degree of certainty.

This particular case of using water as fuel is one.

The energy that produces the heat and pressure that drives the mechanism of an internal combustion engine comes from the chemistry of combustion.

Chemistry is mostly about electron transfer and bond energies.

H2 and O2 have high bond energies H2O has low bond energy. Bond energy given up as heat and light in combustion

Yeah, fair point but I have never said once water was a fuel, Hydrogen would be the fuel I assume, nor at the time that I even remotely understood the process this guy used and is probablly a damn site more complex. I do remember a lot of batteries being used. There is no doubt that you need electricity to start with to make hydrogen this way. However the statement (and it was made) that you can not make hydrogen from water is incorrect as you can split the hydrogen and oxygen easily. Of course other resources are needed and wether you could do it commercially is another issue on its own. Commercially made hydrogen obviously uses a different method.
There is quite a bit of amateur science going on in the states to use hydrogen boost methods to feed hydrogen into a vehicles carburettor. Interesting reading, but wether it actually works is debatable.
My whole point to this thread is that we should not dismiss things out of hand. We all think differently and have different opinions, does this make any of us wrong? Not entirely.
Look at lpg and diesel technology, if we had mentioned that 5 years ago it would have been dismissed out of hand.
And no I am not arguing that anything outside the box is possible (please go back and read my posts carefully), but a lot of things may be possible that we have not considered or closed our minds to. If we work on the concept that all is bound by laws of physics etc we are then saying that some of the worlds best scientists are crackpots. Obviously there are boundaries and limitations but we should keep pushing them.
Cheers
CraigE

Originally Posted by CraigE

However the statement (and it was made) that you can not make hydrogen from water is incorrect

No-one in this thread has made that comment.
Making hydrogen from water is very easy, very slow and requires far more energy than you ever get back.
The reasons for that are the bond energies that Procrastination mentioned a few posts up.

ALL the "amateur science" going on in the states regarding hydrogen generators in vehicles is a crock. The amount of hydrogen produced will be about two bubbles in every cubic metre of air the engine digests. The effect on combustion is zero.
Check out the HHO threads on youtube, they're all bollocks too. But the comments on them are hilarious.

Just remember, big oil is keeping the man down

Originally Posted by CraigE

My whole point to this thread is that we should not dismiss things out of hand. We all think differently and have different opinions, does this make any of us wrong? Not entirely.

The point of this thread is snake oil. To me it equates to fraud and these devices and schemes should be shot down clearly and openly, exposed for what they are to prevent innocent people from being fleeced.

Originally Posted by CraigE

Look at lpg and diesel technology, if we had mentioned that 5 years ago it would have been dismissed out of hand.

LPG fumigation of diesel engines is not new, it's been around for a long long time. The only reason for the resurgence is the growing hot-rod diesel market and the rising cost of fuel.
LPG fumigation is simply extra fuel, there is no catalytic action despite what many kit makers are claiming. But there can be a lot of detonation and engine damage, the kit makers leave that out of their claims too.

Originally Posted by CraigE

If we work on the concept that all is bound by laws of physics etc we are then saying that some of the worlds best scientists are crackpots.

Who are these world best scientists who work outside the laws of physics? Sound like something the bush administration would employ.

Originally Posted by CraigE

Obviously there are boundaries and limitations but we should keep pushing them.
Cheers
CraigE

There I agree. But pushing the boundaries and limitations involves getting closer to the limitations.

There I agree. But pushing the boundaries and limitations involves getting closer to the limitations.....


or busting through if those limitations are merely our understanding of reality
OS:Bill Williams' Joe Cell - PESWiki














yes, I am taking the ****

Originally Posted by procrastination inc

or busting through if those limitations are merely our understanding of reality
OS:Bill Williams' Joe Cell - PESWiki

yes, I am taking the ****

That's a very different reality.
Check out the links at the top of that page.

the Polarizer lives !

......It allegedly feeds off Orgone energy.......

Originally Posted by Dougal

I'm afraid the world (except for the conmen) are in disagreement with you over this one and always will be.
Water does not make hydrogen, water is in fact burn't hydrogen. Trying to run an engine on water will be as successful as setting fire to ashes.

I am an engineer and I often come across people with little technical knowledge spouting off with claims which are physically impossible. In most cases a good grasp of high school physics will show you exactly why these things are doomed to fail.

Some examples.
The 100mpg carburettor.
The 200mpg carburettor.
Magnets around fuel lines.
Fuel catalysts.
Hiclones.
HHO.
Engines that run on water.
Efficiency greater than 100%.
Perpetual motion machines.
etc.

First law of thermodynamics:
You can never win, you can only break even.

Second law of thermodynamics:
You can only break even at absolute zero.

Third law of thermodynamics:
You cannot get to absolute zero.

These laws have never been broken. Many who have claimed to have broken them have been exposed as frauds, the rest, simply mistaken.

Dougal,
I do think you should read your above quote especially the part where you state "water does not make hydrogen"
I am in fact quite a sceptical person and something needs top be proven to me it will work before I will accept it. However I am not confined by certain explanations, there is stuff that works and we do not know why at this point in time.
I actually spoke to a fellow who was on site last night and was also aware of this so called method in Kalgoorlie and believed it did have something to do with hydrogen, but same as me 20 plus years ago does not recall the detail. At the end of the day it had absolutely nothing to do with this particular example, but more to do with wether we believe that some products can operate without a solid engineering reason and I believe that on occassion it is possible, not normal, but possible.
I am not going to change your way of thinking nor you mine and I do not want to as without different thinking and reasoning methods we would never move on. I really think it is time to put this post to bed and move on. As interesting as it has been this will be my last post on this matter. You are more than welcome to have the final say.
Cheers
CraigE

Edit : Yes I agree whole heartedly that if someone is exposed as a fraud or making unsubstantiated claims then they should be exposed and have the full extent of the law thrust upon them.
History also does show that many inventors were thought of as frauds and crackpot before they made their breakthroughs. As far as those working towards a goal that does not involve fraud or selling snake oil but proving or disproving a theory we should assist them to a conclusion that is tangeable.