Reply With QuoteLPG is meant to be an excellent refrigerant but I think it is illegal for automotive applications (safety concerns?)
Major part of the heart and soul of AULRO.comRick130 is an air con bloke (I think) - what does he think?
Ron B.
VK2OTC
2003 L322 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Auto
2007 Yamaha XJR1300
Previous: 1983, 1986 RRC; 1995, 1996 P38A; 1995 Disco1; 1984 V8 County 110; Series IIA
RIP Bucko - Riding on Forever
Master
LPG is meant to be an excellent refrigerant but I think it is illegal for automotive applications (safety concerns?)
ChatterBox
Firstly lets get the facts straight.
You do not use LPG in air conditioning systems - standard LPG is irregular in the HC content so matching pressure/teperatures curves would be impossible.
In addition to this standard LPG contains too many contaminants to be good for a system, sulphur, oxides, moisture etc., etc.,
The gases on offer today are highly refined, carefully blended high quality hydrocarbons - they are blended to match the temp/press curves of R12 and R134a.
Procrastinate (sorry if spelling is incorrect but its late) using HC in auto air conditioning is not illegal anywhere in australia - for a while it was banned by clause 242 in NSW - but that was repealed (Dela Bosca ) over 3 years ago.
Safety issues - yep its flammable - and all 250 to 300 gramms of it could catch fire - however the 90 ltrs (97 kgs) of petrol, diesel or maybe 75 ltrs (40 kgs) of the fuel you pump in every day - send down the front of the car and then burn is a damn site more dangerous than 250 / 300 grams in an AC system
Next on flamability - regardless of what gas is in your sustem - it burns - maybe not at 460 Deg C like HC - but maybe at 750 Deg C with R12 or R134a - but the main point here is its not the gas that starts the fire - its the lubricant / oil - which has an auto iginition point of less than 220 Deg C when under pressure (which it is when in a AC system thats running) - and when the lubricant burns - the heat generated is in excess of 2000 Deg C - so it doesnt matter what refrigerant you use its going to burn.
The only difference is when HC's burn the by-products are carbon and steam - not critical, but when you burn gases that contain chlorine or flourine the fumes given off are highly toxic and will cause death. Just read an MSDS for R134a - dont take my word for it.
The critical issue from changing from any other refigerant to HC is to get the system clean, so changing oil and reciever driers is a very good idea.
Also if a system has been 'dry' for a while - or even if it is just an old dirty system, adding any new gas can eventuate in leaks because
1) If a system is empty / dry the o rings will dry up and perish - and will not seal.
2) Old dirty systems MAY have the intergrity of o rings held together with gunk/muck/old sticky oil, and when you pump in a new clean refrigerant - this cleans the gunk/muck old sticky oil off - hey presto it leaks - so if you are going to change be prepared to change the O rings (they cost about $5 for the lot) and use the right ones - not normal rubber / black o rings .
Now onto oils
R12 worked well with mineral oil
R134a didnt, so PAG (PolyAlphaGlycol), POE (PolyolEster) and AB (AlkylineBenzol) oils were formulated - these are extremely hygroscopic (yes it is hygro - not hydro) which means it absorbs moisture - water plus flourine or chlorine = acid - -= leaks new evaporator.
HC's will operate well with mineral oils - PAG, POE AB's and POA's
So on a retrofit fro R134a to HC there is no need to change oils. Unless its very dirty/contaminated / saturated in acids.
The guy who first posted this thread - sorry its late and it was a while ago.
Please send me a PM and I will supply you - as a sample - some oil suitable for your system
ForumSage
No need to be sorry, I'm planning well ahead and your information is very valuable.Originally Posted by ladas
TopicToaster
Ladas, your a wealth of information on Refrig topics, always love to read your response.
i was not going to post any anwsers to this until i had read your reply as LPG in AC is a no no in my veiw, just a cheap cop out. Bit like trying R22 or R410 in it.... yep i know a Fridgy that does that...
Get it done right, or not at all...
ForumSage
If I don't want ozone depleting gas in my AC, then it seems to be the only way. I suppose I could use ammonia, but I'm more comfortable with LPG.
The local AC guys are one-trick-ponies, it's R134a or nothing. Tried the nothing option for a long time, now I'll be experimenting.
TopicToaster
Ammonia eats alloy.
Other problem you will have if you try to do it yourself is buying the Gas, you need to be registered to do so. Just pay the guys what they charge and get it done right
ForumSage
As I said before, I'm not going to use an ozone depleting gas. That means I'm not going to use R134a.
They sell LPG to any old muppet.
Last edited by Dougal; 26th January 2008 at 09:58 AM.
TopicToaster
You said it.....As I said before, I'm not going to use an ozone depleting gas. That means I'm not going to use R134a.
They sell LPG to any old muppet.
As per Ladas post, LPG is not refined enough and is highly flamable. So even after a Guru tells you the result, your still going to do what you were doing in the 1st place?
Why do people ask for advice and then when its explained and the end result is positive they go and do it there way and then come back in a months time and say "yeah you were right"
The whole idea of a forum is to bounce idea's of each other. If you dont want to take advice then dont ask.
You have not researched this AC problem at all... if you had of, you would not be going down the LPG track or even asking about Ammonia.
AC Guys that put LPG in are back yarders. They give the professional tradespeople a bad name.
You say you dont want to run Oxone depleating gas in your AC? have you asked about the alternatives to R12 and R134a?
ForumSage
With an attitude like that, how did your ancestors ever get out of the caves they lived in?
Do you keep your vehicle completely stock and wash it with the factory branded soap? Because that's exactly what the experts recommend.
Have just refilled my aircon with LPG and it seems to be working well. I am not afraid to experiment with my own vehicles. The compressor sounds noisey and may well soon die. Good thing I didn't waste my money filling it with R134a just to kill more of the ozone layer as some escapes everytime the system is gassed up or vacuumed out.
I asked for advice and received it, I weighed up the options and went for it. I can appreciate your desire to be the forum nazi, but do try not to spoil everyones fun.
If you'd read the original question (you obviously haven't) you'd realise I was asking about appropriate oil. I was not asking to be lectured by the fun police.
Funnily enough this job was done in my back yard.
As I said earlier (try reading first) there is noone here interested in using anything but R134a. None. They do not have any alternatives to sell.
Last edited by Dougal; 26th January 2008 at 02:05 PM.
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