ChatterBox
SteveOriginally Posted by sclarke
I feel you are missing the point here - there is a world of difference between LPG - and refined and blended HC's -
These are not a cheap cop out they are an engineered solution to an enormous problem associated with R134a - not only from an environmental point of view - but also with performance in mind.
A 'proper' conversion from R12 to R134a is an expensive process and unless its done by the book it will never perform properly.
R134a is a very poor substitute - it lacks performance on HOT days due to the relatively low critical temp - it has a high GWP - and has issues with lubricants.
Hydrocarbon refrigerants (NOTICE NOT LPG) are a perfect solution - they do not form acids when moisture is present, they are non toxic - unlike R134a.
HC's have good critical temperature performance matching those of R12.
Typical Land Rovers will have between (+/-) 600 - 1000 g of refrigerant, with a refined, blended purpose engineered hydrocarbon only 200 - 350g is used.
R134a has a GWP of +/- 1500 and an atmospheric lifetime of > 100 years
HC's have a GWP of < 3 with an atmospheric lifetime of less than 1 year.
However I do agree with one point you made - they should not be available to everyone - they should be controlled similar to chemical refrigerants - not for the safety issue as much - but as you know - we train long and hard for our industry - and putting any high pressure gas in the hands of Joe Public is a recipie for disaster - and when it goes wrong its the product that gets the blame - not the inexperiance person doing the job.
It might be interesting to note that the 'apparent' solution that Du-Pont et al are working with - is R152 - and guess what - it has a very high percentage of HC in it - in an attempt to solve lubrication, critical temp and acidity issues !!!!
If done properly - by someone who knows what they are doing, using the correct HC - it is the perfect solution to a very large problem - worldwide.
Master
im no a/c expert ( but some here are) but why would you even consider putting something as flammable as lpg where it was never intended to go. its this kind of back yard conversion that allways ends in tears or 3rd degree burns. if it was a good idea it would be well known to be a good cheap fix but it isnt. nothing personal but i hope i never come near a vehicle with lpg being pumped around the dash.
ChatterBox
No Neil you re no expert.
Hydrocarbon Gases have been around as refrigerants longer than chemical ones.
Most if not all petro chemical companies use them.
Even companies like Coco Cola and Unlilever use them.
90% of the domestic refrigerators produced in Europe and SE Asia use them.
Shortly one of Australia major refrigerator manufacturers will be using them.
And again it is NOT LPG. These are highly refined blended hydrocarbons.
And do you know why they give certain hydrocarbons R numbers - it is because they are classed as refrigerants and are designed to be used as such - so they are meant to go in there.
And the risk of getting any burns from a hc charged system has been proven to be almost none existant, however the chances of being poisonned or asphixiated by chemical gases is very real.
Later when you get new cars and my guess they will be charged with R152 supplied by the chemical companies like ICI and Du Pont - and you will all say 'oh thats okay' its made by the same people who produced R134a - it must be okay - well if you are a sheep you will.
Read up on it and get the facts without making blind statements from zero knowledge base.
I doubt if you would remember when they first suggested using LPG for cars - same blinkered views, major panic - and now the governments actually help you to do it.
Look outside the square
ChatterBox
Have a read of this.
Last edited by ladas; 22nd October 2008 at 09:48 PM.
Master
LPG is illegal to use in aircon here, one leak under the bonnet and boomo!, you can get a gas called isceon that is a direct replacement for R12 and it works really well. Dont quote me on the name its been 5 years since I had mine gassed and its still cool as ice, all I know is its a blend and its one of few gases available if you dont run the R134a
Last edited by graceysdad; 26th January 2008 at 08:20 PM.
ChatterBox
You are wrong - it is not illegal to use anywhere in Australia - get your fact right.
One leak of any pressurised gas when mixed with oil can cause a fire.
In Australia to date there have been 7 reported auto fires caused by the AC system
Every single one was with R134a - not hydrocarbon based refrigerants.
At one stage Clause 242 limited the use of HC based refrigerants - but that was repealed over three years ago.
Oh by the way - did you know that black was white
ChatterBox
Yes you can - but guess what Iscecon contains R600a - Iso Butane - which is guess what - a hydrocarbon. Dont believe me look at the msds.
So you are already using HC's and you dont know it.
Master
Only saying what my auto sparky who did mine told me,
Master
I am leaving this one alone, my aircon works and I am happy
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