Should tourists climb Uluru?

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Originally Posted by JoeFriend

That was us, forgot the name of the town.

I see it as the same as standing on an alter, and I am sure that the tribe would too. It is a sacred place that is climbed only as a rite of passage - climbing it when it's not your place is the same.

Happy for you to have your opinion, and your views on whether or not you should climb it - just as long as you know that what you do is seen as disrespectful in the eyes of those who see it as culturally significant. This alone should be enough to deter people to climb it, why you would want to offend someone else's culture knowingly is beyond me. I wouldn't do it to yours so why do it to what makes up my culture.

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I find this an interesting statement Joe. It makes me wonder why, when we were there in the late 70's we were literally hassled and encouraged, by the local Aborigine's, to climb. We actually spent quite a bit of time with them, especially whilst they were making various tools etc out of wood by the fire. The only thing we were told "not" to do, was enter if I recall correctly, two places, specifically, the cave where an Elder was, and another cave somewhere, (unfortunately I cant remember all the details).


So, with this as my experience, can you tell me who decided that we (any non-Aboriginal) cant traverse the rock please. But, just so you understand where I'm coming from, it feels to me, as if someone has come from a distant place and said to the locals,,, "No, it has to be stopped, and here's why". So somewhat confused, I see it as the locals, who welcomed us with open arms, now don't have open arms. I don't understand, I'm sorry.
As I said in my earlier post, respect is everything, and next time I'm there, I'd love to be able to take my partner up there, preferably with a guide that can tell/explain to us what we want to know.
I'm hoping when we travel we will have the opportunity to be welcomed to the country and spend time with "the locals", and share in their culture.

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Originally Posted by Chops

So, with this as my experience, can you tell me who decided that we (any non-Aboriginal) cant traverse the rock please. But, just so you understand where I'm coming from, it feels to me, as if someone has come from a distant place and said to the locals,,, "No, it has to be stopped, and here's why". So somewhat confused, I see it as the locals, who welcomed us with open arms, now don't have open arms. I don't understand, I'm sorry.
As I said in my earlier post, respect is everything, and next time I'm there, I'd love to be able to take my partner up there, preferably with a guide that can tell/explain to us what we want to know.
I'm hoping when we travel we will have the opportunity to be welcomed to the country and spend time with "the locals", and share in their culture.

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Quite simple, really. Up until the 1940's all aborigines would have been fully initiated men, and had a full knowledge of the myths, many of which belonged to the secret life of fully initiated men. In the years after the 1940's, the effects of civilization and the restrictive practices of the Christian Missionaries caused rapid changes to take place in the Pitjandjara tribe. This change produced fringe dwellers, not white, but not fully initiated black men either. We would call them entrepreneur's. Making a quick buck out of the gullible tourists. If you read Mountford's book, you will come to realise that almost every part of Uluru has some cultural or religious significance to the fully initiated, and only the fully initiated have the full knowledge .

It is to your credit you wish to learn more about the culture, if more had that attitude, perhaps there would be little need for this discussion. You must understand though, that the white man can only ever scratch the surface, it is not the duty of a professional or priestly class to preserve the myths and their rites ,but of a number of groups of initiated men, each of whom is responsible for memorizing the traditions and songs of their clan territories.

I guess the last word should come from Mountford.

" It is a memorable experience to have lived and travelled with these and other aborigines and have been able to see , if only for a short time the functioning of one of the most primitive cultures of Mankind: a culture with tools that simple that the gaining of a livelihood in that desert environment is a remarkable achievement. A culture with a code of laws so well balanced that there is no need for organised warfare to maintain a social balance: and a culture where the people are at peace with each other and with the surroundings in which they live. "

I haven't checked Bob but this could be the longest Walrus Club thread ever!

If I ask someone not to do something and they don't do it, being human, it makes me feel valued and respected.

So if anyone asks me not to do something, I endeavour to comply as I trust that it makes them feel the same was I do when I am in their situation.

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Originally Posted by Bytemrk

The 2010- 2020 Management Plan makes interesting reading for those that are interesting in some of the facts around the way the park is managed rather than peoples opinions.

https://www.environment.gov.au/syste...ement-plan.pdf

In particular Clause 6.3.3C on page 92 outlines the future conditions that will see the climb permanently closed.

MrLandy, if you happen to revisit, I could not see a reference to Parks having any Veto over the traditional owners ( I may have missed it.) the make up of the board of management appears to have significant indigenous representation.

Of the 12 members of the Board of Management:

Eight Aboriginal members are nominated by the Anangu traditional owners
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for tourism and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for the environment and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the Northern Territory Government and approved by Anangu
One member is the Director of National Parks.


https://www.environment.gov.au/topic...ark-management


It's good to see we seem to have got away from playing the man and at least some can agree to disagree......Thank you :)

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It's actually very straight forward. "...the Anangu people, Uluru's traditional owners, have asked for decades that tourists not climb it".

"Following the Rock's handback, the traditional owners were obliged to lease the Park back to the Director of National Parks"

The handback was conditional. The management report is propaganda.

The financial pressure on a community living in poverty next door to a playground for the wealthy has been clearly illustrated again and again if you care to look beyond the propaganda. Here is one recent example:
Why is it still possible to climb Ulu<u>r</u>u?

What makes me angry is the blatant disregard being shown to Anangu people by AULRO members, despite the very clear fact that Uluru is a sacred 'religious' icon for Anangu. It is obvious when you arrive at Uluru how powerful the place is. To deliberately disrespect this in full knowledge that the Anangu people don't want you to climb is disrespectful at best, and racist IMO.

The CONTINUING politics of colonial dispossession in Australia (political) have resulted in a false handback. If Anangu people were truly in charge it's clear the climb would close.

This thread is both political and religious and should be shut down. Much of what is being said is highly offensive. Not knowing it is offensive is not an excuse. It's not about a difference of opinion. Knowing it is offensive and continuing is racist.

Bob I suggest you start a thread instead about the beauty and power of walking around Uluru. About the extraordinary privilege of being able to visit this iconic place for Anangu people and the wisdom to be gained by going on an Anangu walking tour around their country.

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Originally Posted by JoeFriend

I stand corrected. Passionate perhaps?

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Joe,....Definitely,..that would be me!!...This has been an excellent discussion, & I believe We have shown to mods that we can have separate & differeing respectful opinions without making it personal & resorting to name calling, which some people may think gives them an edge,....in my opinion it simply destroys their credibility. Right or wrong, we should all be able to have our opinion.
Regards, Pickles.

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Originally Posted by MrLandy

It's actually very straight forward. "...the Anangu people, Uluru's traditional owners, have asked for decades that tourists not climb it".

"Following the Rock's handback, the traditional owners were obliged to lease the Park back to the Director of National Parks"

The handback was conditional. The management report is propaganda.

The financial pressure on a community living in poverty next door to a playground for the wealthy has been clearly illustrated again and again if you care to look beyond the propaganda. Here is one recent example:
Why is it still possible to climb Ulu<u>r</u>u?

What makes me angry is the blatant disregard being shown to Anangu people by AULRO members, despite the very clear fact that Uluru is a sacred 'religious' icon for Anangu. It is obvious when you arrive at Uluru how powerful the place is. To deliberately disrespect this in full knowledge that the Anangu people don't want you to climb is disrespectful at best, and racist IMO.

The CONTINUING politics of colonial dispossession in Australia (political) have resulted in a false handback. If Anangu people were truly in charge it's clear the climb would close.

This thread is both political and religious and should be shut down. Much of what is being said is highly offensive. Not knowing it is offensive is not an excuse. It's not about a difference of opinion. Knowing it is offensive and continuing is racist.

Bob I suggest you start a thread instead about the beauty and power of walking around Uluru. About the extraordinary privilege of being able to visit this iconic place for Anangu people and the wisdom to be gained by going on an Anangu walking tour around their country.

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This has been my point all along.

Unless you are of Aboriginal heritage, you can't say whether it is disrespectful or not. I am from both sides of the camp, white, wealthy and privileged along with identifying myself of Aboriginal heritage.

Climbing is one thing, it's the blatant disregard for a cultures beliefs and wishes that really irks me and fires me up, and knowingly doing things that are offensive is what makes it racist IMO.

Thank you for understanding, and I am glad that some on this thread have learnt things, and perhaps it will lead to you wanting to learn more about Aboriginal culture and how they lived both on the land and with the land for 40,000 years in peace and harmony.

It's never too late to do the little things you can to make the traditional owners of the land feel respected.

Is it beer o'clock yet?

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Originally Posted by MrLandy

This thread is both political and religious and should be shut down. Much of what is being said is highly offensive. Not knowing it is offensive is not an excuse. It's not about a difference of opinion. Knowing it is offensive and continuing is racist.

Bob I suggest you start a thread instead about the beauty and power of walking around Uluru. About the extraordinary privilege of being able to visit this iconic place for Anangu people and the wisdom to be gained by going on an Anangu walking tour around their country.

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We shouldn't allow emotion to get in the way of common sense. To me, it would be offensive and racist NOT to discuss the issue. That would take us back to the bad old days. The fact that this thread has survived so long, is a credit to the members of AULRO. Yes, some of the usual suspects tried to derail it, but wiser heads prevailed. In our democratic society, all members have the right to be heard, as long as there is no abuse. So, members, you should be proud that we have discussed this contensious subject, with a minimum of angst. My connection to the subject? My full blood aboriginal great Grand Mother.

I was brought up in a reasonably well 'placed' family and went to a good school and never wanted for anything however it was my parents attitude to the whole of society that was the biggest positive influence i had.

My father was born in East Africa and had understandably a huge connection to that part of the world although not of African descent (my grandparents were british and lived for quite sometime there and were heavily humanitarian and 'christian missionary ' like which as we know sometimes don't go hand in hand....😞 although the past is the past...) upon retiring from his carreer as an ophthalmologist and surgeon returned a few times to teach at the university/ teaching hospital in Uganda and even had fellow surgeons and specialists donate equipment to be taken over there etc etc to try and get a base of local specialists to carry out relatively common and life changing procedures, we here take for ' granted'.
Around the age of 14 i was taken along on a Trachoma and Eye health survey of the Western Deserts of WA with my dad and this was led by Fred Hollows. As you can imagine in the 80's my eyes were crudely opened to all the different and confronting lives of the western desert peoples when brought in from the deserts as a proud and peaceful nomadic people to the beginning of the end of their civilisation 'for their betterment '. 😠.
Almost immediately i understood why my father did what he did and now, all these years on , still affected by those 10 or so days so long ago.

I'm ashamed to say that i haven't achieved or done anything like my father has on a people level, however i am immensely thankful for the experience at that age which had changed my whole life for the better I'm sure.

We are only visitors here, and while i agree we all have a free will to choose our actions there is precious little thought given by the majority regarding the feelings and consequences our behaviour and words have on others.

My grandmothers favourite expression that sticks with me is one which apparently had a root in an African saying,

"When you point the finger at someone do not forget there are 3 more fingers pointing back at you"

Jc

This is as good a place as any to post " the genetic history of Aboriginal Australia".They may have been here much longer than anyone knew. In fact, there is some truth in the claim of being the oldest continuous race of humans on Earth.

[ame]https://youtu.be/_kbRxSzDE4k[/ame]

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Originally Posted by JoeFriend

This has been my point all along.

Unless you are of Aboriginal heritage, you can't say whether it is disrespectful or not. I am from both sides of the camp, white, wealthy and privileged along with identifying myself of Aboriginal heritage.

Climbing is one thing, it's the blatant disregard for a cultures beliefs and wishes that really irks me and fires me up, and knowingly doing things that are offensive is what makes it racist IMO.

Thank you for understanding, and I am glad that some on this thread have learnt things, and perhaps it will lead to you wanting to learn more about Aboriginal culture and how they lived both on the land and with the land for 40,000 years in peace and harmony.

It's never too late to do the little things you can to make the traditional owners of the land feel respected.

Is it beer o'clock yet?

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Cheers Joe, Yuwa Palya, definately beer o'clock.