Should tourists climb Uluru?

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

Cannot be compared, but I had the feeling that some would, because I thought of it myself, being an "Old Pom", and being familiar with Stonehenge, and having visited both.
There is NO comparison, with respect to "the issues" of non climbing of Ayres Rock, because the issues are totally different, whether you agree with the climbing of Ayres Rock, or not.
Ain't going to the differences, ya can google ya self., BUT, they are totally different,....don't bother to dispute unless you know the facts,...in which case I will be happy to discuss.
Pickles.

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Enlighten us, or the more uncharitable may say you are just full of wind. Not me, of course, I await with bated breath.

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

Cannot be compared, but I had the feeling that some would, because I thought of it myself, being an "Old Pom", and being familiar with Stonehenge, and having visited both.
There is NO comparison, with respect to "the issues" of non climbing of Ayres Rock, because the issues are totally different, whether you agree with the climbing of Ayres Rock, or not.
Ain't going to the differences, ya can google ya self., BUT, they are totally different,....don't bother to dispute unless you know the facts,...in which case I will be happy to discuss.
Pickles.

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I know some things, but I'd be happy to be enlightened.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

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Originally Posted by bob10

Sorry, but your explanation is just a tad simplistic. As explained before, the influence of Missionaries created a underclass of fringe dwellers, uninitiated adults ,often seen on the banks of the Todd river. It was this group which was empowered by some smart white men, and indeed set up to fail.Which they did, not surprisingly. No one has said they own the rock, that's a white mans concept. However, to the old people, it is much more than just a rock.I respect your beliefs, as an atheist. Is it too hard to respect the genuine Aboriginal beliefs? Their belief system has very little to do with religion, everything to do with their culture. Atheists have culture.

I like your no. 2 dot point, and would like to expand it further. My idea would be to use modern technology, in the form of drones, to overfly the rock,filming , then build a modern cinema, with all the bells & whistles to make it a magical cinematic experience. Some sensitivity to aboriginal sacred sites would be required, but with the best commentary, much more of Uluru would be explained, and seen , it would be better than climbing it. And here is the clincher. It should be minimal cost, perhaps a gold coin donation.

Millions have been spent on the Aboriginal " problem ", much wasted. Spend some of it on education of non indigenous Australia . Education of the aboriginal children, and education of non indigenous Australians is the key , I think. And to me, and some old Aboriginal men I have the privilege of knowing, turning Uluru into a business, white man way, just doesn't sit right.

Pie in the sky stuff, I know. Tell me I'm dreamin', and I would agree.

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Its a tad simplistic for a couple of reasons.

1. The memory is from about 20 years ago,
2. I was copping hell for sharing my gear and food with a "local"
3. I dont recall him being real happy with having to tell the story or the way the guys were refering to him when they were trying to get me away from talking with him so I could get drunk with them and
4. I was ****ed off at them trying to get me to drink when I was there as safety driver and comms and the whole 2 week trip was dry for me especially when we were in a "dry"area.

Unfortunately while I understand why you might want to play the cultural card I advise you dont.

My cultural beliefs and expectations I am constantly required to repress in order to be accommodating to and tolerant of "other" cultures and beliefs. I'll put it this way, if every "other" culture was mandated that they had to do the same as I am expected to then this thread would never have started. I'll go one further.

If I was able to jam my personal culture, ethos and belief system onto others in the same way as I have to have go through "cultural awareness, diversity and equity" training and have any of it respected there would be a significant lack of the kind of crap that leads to threads like these and the ill will, feeling and all the other negatives that come from them.

Problem is, dimwits like me who think and genuinely believe that just maybe if they throw enough out there and do enough for enough other people that just maybe the world will become a better place are few and far between. Personal greed, selfishness and covering your ass at the expense of others has taken its place in society.

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Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

Its a tad simplistic for a couple of reasons.

1. The memory is from about 20 years ago,


Problem is, dimwits like me who think and genuinely that just maybe if they throw enough out there and do enough for enough other people that just maybe the world will become a better place are few and far between. Personal greed, selfishness and covering your ass at the expense of others has taken its place in society.

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First of all, it must be said that just because a man has age, doesn't mean he is an elder.The media often portray people as an elder of the tribe, but that is disingenuous. The Government of the tribe is in the hands of the well-informed old men, not the physically active youth. It is the old men who maintain the ancient laws, and decide the correct time for the performance of the rituals on which the social and philosophical life of the tribe depend. The full knowledge of the mythical past and the rites associated with it belongs only to these tribal elders. I doubt you would have met a tribal elder at Uluru, 20 years ago. Perhaps a fringe dweller with a conscience.

It's a pity you didn't get to Docker River. A little community between Uluru and the WA border. A dry community, it is one of the success stories of the region. Governed under tribal law, and law of the land, overseen by a NT Government Official and a small staff. A good mate of mine was that official for a couple of years. Doesn't mean they don't have problems, but grog isn't one of them.[ or wasn't back then] While he was there , the elders decided a ritual spearing was required to teach a young buck a lesson. Something to do with a woman. After the spearing he was required to go bush, with some minders, to relearn the clan rules.

My mate had to report it to the Police, of course, but the nearest police were in Alice Springs. The community is in a sense self regulating. There are no layabouts, or fringe dwellers, because there is no grog. They have a successful school system, with one of the highest attendance rates in Aboriginal NT. [ I'm speaking about 20 odd years ago] My mate and his staff are people who put themselves out, to help others, and do make a difference. They don't talk about it, they do it. It's not a perfect society, but show me one that is. A bit about the school;


Submitted by captovate on Tue, 2012-07-31 08:48
Nyangatjatjara College is an Anangu College in Central Australia. We provide secondary education across three remote communities and primary education in one (Docker River). All of our students are Anangu and almost all speak Pitjantjatjara as their first language. We are the only secondary education provider in the Northern Territory south of Alice Springs.

We belong to the Association of Independent Schools of the Northern Territory (AISNT). Our aim is to have every child across our communities attending school and learning every day. We are passionate about working with Anangu to provide a great education for the young people in our region.

Nyangatjatjara College was established by Nyangatjatjara Aboriginal Corporation and opened on 21 July 1997. In the first five years of its life, the college grew from one building to multiple temporary buildings at four campuses based in the communities it serves. The Yulara campus is architecturally-designed site. Its bright colours and staggered rooflines meld the buildings with the environment and reflect the Central Australian landscape.

They are the only Secondary education provider in the NT south of Alice Springs.
It can be done, but it is hard work, not for the faint hearted.
Welcome to Nyangatjatjara College | Nyangatjatjara College

I note with interest that those who want to climb call it "Ayers Rock".....something of ignorance there isn't there?

Those against climbing are calling it by its correct name...Uluru.

It's been Uluru for 49,850 years and some pommy explorer called it Ayers Rock 150years ago.

Let's call it by it's correct name from now on.

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Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

I note with interest that those who want to climb call it "Ayers Rock".....something of ignorance there isn't there?

Those against climbing are calling it by its correct name...Uluru.

It's been Uluru for 49,850 years and some pommy explorer called it Ayers Rock 150years ago.

Let's call it by it's correct name from now on.

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Any more incorrect generalisations you'd like to make?
I call it Uluru and am pro climbing.

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Originally Posted by Mick_Marsh

Should tourists climb Uluru? If they want. I've climbed it.

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Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

My cultural beliefs and expectations I am constantly required to repress in order to be accommodating to and tolerant of "other" cultures and beliefs. I'll put it this way, if every "other" culture was mandated that they had to do the same as I am expected to then this thread would never have started. I'll go one further.

If I was able to jam my personal culture, ethos and belief system onto others in the same way as I have to have go through "cultural awareness, diversity and equity" training and have any of it respected there would be a significant lack of the kind of crap that leads to threads like these and the ill will, feeling and all the other negatives that come from them.

Problem is, dimwits like me who think and genuinely that just maybe if they throw enough out there and do enough for enough other people that just maybe the world will become a better place are few and far between. Personal greed, selfishness and covering your ass at the expense of others has taken its place in society.

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Point taken and I agree with that stance totally mate.

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Originally Posted by bob10

First of all, it must be said that just because a man has age, doesn't mean he is an elder.The media often portray people as an elder of the tribe, but that is disingenuous. The Government of the tribe is in the hands of the well-informed old men, not the physically active youth. It is the old men who maintain the ancient laws, and decide the correct time for the performance of the rituals on which the social and philosophical life of the tribe depend. The full knowledge of the mythical past and the rites associated with it belongs only to these tribal elders. I doubt you would have met a tribal elder at Uluru, 20 years ago. Perhaps a fringe dweller with a conscience.

It's a pity you didn't get to Docker River. A little community between Uluru and the WA border. A dry community, it is one of the success stories of the region. Governed under tribal law, and law of the land, overseen by a NT Government Official and a small staff. A good mate of mine was that official for a couple of years. Doesn't mean they don't have problems, but grog isn't one of them.[ or wasn't back then] While he was there , the elders decided a ritual spearing was required to teach a young buck a lesson. Something to do with a woman. After the spearing he was required to go bush, with some minders, to relearn the clan rules.

My mate had to report it to the Police, of course, but the nearest police were in Alice Springs. The community is in a sense self regulating. There are no layabouts, or fringe dwellers, because there is no grog. They have a successful school system, with one of the highest attendance rates in Aboriginal NT. [ I'm speaking about 20 odd years ago] My mate and his staff are people who put themselves out, to help others, and do make a difference. They don't talk about it, they do it. It's not a perfect society, but show me one that is. A bit about the school;


Submitted by captovate on Tue, 2012-07-31 08:48
Nyangatjatjara College is an Anangu College in Central Australia. We provide secondary education across three remote communities and primary education in one (Docker River). All of our students are Anangu and almost all speak Pitjantjatjara as their first language. We are the only secondary education provider in the Northern Territory south of Alice Springs.

We belong to the Association of Independent Schools of the Northern Territory (AISNT). Our aim is to have every child across our communities attending school and learning every day. We are passionate about working with Anangu to provide a great education for the young people in our region.

Nyangatjatjara College was established by Nyangatjatjara Aboriginal Corporation and opened on 21 July 1997. In the first five years of its life, the college grew from one building to multiple temporary buildings at four campuses based in the communities it serves. The Yulara campus is architecturally-designed site. Its bright colours and staggered rooflines meld the buildings with the environment and reflect the Central Australian landscape.

They are the only Secondary education provider in the NT south of Alice Springs.
It can be done, but it is hard work, not for the faint hearted.
Welcome to Nyangatjatjara College | Nyangatjatjara College

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Bob I'm glad to hear the succes stories from there. I was traveling that area in '88 and it didn't seem that much of a successful environment however I didn't get to spend a lot of time there. Beautiful country though, as always awe inspiring.

Jc

Dave re post #123 , I think the world is a better place with you in it.

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Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

Dave re post #123 , I think the world is a better place with you in it.

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Me too, Dave.