Should tourists climb Uluru?

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6th October 2016, 04:35 PM
pop058

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pickles2

This is an emotional subject, many opinions, so obviously, we're not all going to agree with each other, and, surprise surprise,......We didn't, which is all good, and to be expected, unless....ya "play the man".
No excuse for that at all, after all it's only a difference of opinion, & I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, in ANY discussion.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed the thread, and will continue to so so, should it continue, and whilst I still have the same opinion, I have some more understanding of the views of others.
Pickles.

:thumbsup:

This I believe this is the best outcome we can realistically hope for.
6th October 2016, 06:55 PM
bob10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pickles2

This is an emotional subject, many opinions, so obviously, we're not all going to agree with each other, and, surprise surprise,......We didn't, which is all good, and to be expected, unless....ya "play the man".
No excuse for that at all, after all it's only a difference of opinion, & I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, in ANY discussion.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed the thread, and will continue to so so, should it continue, and whilst I still have the same opinion, I have some more understanding of the views of others.
Pickles.

Being asked in an arrogant way, " answer the question", after resurrecting 18th century thinking , is enough to make any one who has been trying to explain the complexities of modern Aboriginal life, in a respectful way, in todays' environment, well, just shake the head. I have noticed this happens in a few of your posts, and when challenged, you use the play the man card. I have Promised myself I will not fall for that again.
6th October 2016, 07:46 PM
Chops

Having met Pickles, arrogant is the last thing I'd think of him as.
Personally, I think a "push" for a relevant answer is warranted. I'm still waiting for answers to my questions as well.
In order for us to "understand" where your all coming from, we need answers to various questions we may have. To be simply told "no you cant do it", (whatever that may be, not just this case), just doesn't cut it. Anyone with half a brain will want to know the "why-for's" etc, just out of pure curiosities sake if nothing else.

Some may perceive this to be arrogant, ignorant, whatever, for wanting this info, but by not giving the answers, this works in reverse as well.
As an Australian, I'm happy and more than willing, given the chance, to learn what I can about aboriginal culture. At 16 when I was there, the old people we spoke with were great to us, and one thing they said, was come back an see it properly.
I've got no idea what exactly "properly" is, but I'm guessing its probably mingling with the old guys, being shown some guidance around the area and the culture too I would hope.
So, if people on this forum are able to teach us, even some of the customs/culture, reasoning's for certain things so we understand better, wouldn't that be a better thing(?). Just because you give what you think is a relevant answer to something, doesn't mean we'll understand straight up either. It doesn't mean we don't care.
6th October 2016, 08:04 PM
bob10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chops

Having met Pickles, arrogant is the last thing I'd think of him as.
Personally, I think a "push" for a relevant answer is warranted. I'm still waiting for answers to my questions as well.
In order for us to "understand" where your all coming from, we need answers to various questions we may have. To be simply told "no you cant do it", (whatever that may be, not just this case), just doesn't cut it. Anyone with half a brain will want to know the "why-for's" etc, just out of pure curiosities sake if nothing else.

Some may perceive this to be arrogant, ignorant, whatever, for wanting this info, but by not giving the answers, this works in reverse as well.
As an Australian, I'm happy and more than willing, given the chance, to learn what I can about aboriginal culture. At 16 when I was there, the old people we spoke with were great to us, and one thing they said, was come back an see it properly.
I've got no idea what exactly "properly" is, but I'm guessing its probably mingling with the old guys, being shown some guidance around the area and the culture too I would hope.
So, if people on this forum are able to teach us, even some of the customs/culture, reasoning's for certain things so we understand better, wouldn't that be a better thing(?). Just because you give what you think is a relevant answer to something, doesn't mean we'll understand straight up either. It doesn't mean we don't care.

The question must be asked with respect. And with respect , I don't think anyone on the forum can answer the question. Dig deeper, find the answer you are after, if this thread has sparked your interest, I have achieved the desired result. Pickles is your mate, not mine.
6th October 2016, 08:05 PM
Blknight.aus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chops

Some may perceive this to be arrogant, ignorant, whatever, for wanting this info, but by not giving the answers, this works in reverse as well.
As an Australian, I'm happy and more than willing, given the chance, to learn what I can about aboriginal culture. At 16 when I was there, the old people we spoke with were great to us, and one thing they said, was come back an see it properly.
I've got no idea what exactly "properly" is, but I'm guessing its probably mingling with the old guys, being shown some guidance around the area and the culture too I would hope.

cut some bits.

touristy is how I did it the first time. end effect, yeah, its a rock, It was there, I climbed it honestly the views are better from the bridge the dam or the wave.

properly the second.

There is only one way to climb the rock. If you do or did it the tourist way you haven't climbed it. If you want to climb it just cause its there you probably don't deserve to climb it.
6th October 2016, 08:12 PM
bob10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

cut some bits.

touristy is how I did it the first time. end effect, yeah, its a rock, It was there, I climbed it honestly the views are better from the bridge the dam or the wave.

properly the second.

There is only one way to climb the rock. If you do or did it the tourist way you haven't climbed it. If you want to climb it just cause its there you probably don't deserve to climb it.

Finally some one gets it. Well done Dave. Thank you.
6th October 2016, 08:41 PM
Pickles2

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob10

Being asked in an arrogant way, " answer the question", after resurrecting 18th century thinking , is enough to make any one who has been trying to explain the complexities of modern Aboriginal life, in a respectful way, in todays' environment, well, just shake the head. I have noticed this happens in a few of your posts, and when challenged, you use the play the man card. I have Promised myself I will not fall for that again.

I have NEVER played the man.
"Arrogant"?!!,....As a well know person once said, "You cannot be serious". In this case I simply asked you a question, which either you would not, didn't like, or could not, answer. it was actually quite a simple question relating to a sign, and the Aboriginal interpretation of "No".
You are the one who "played the man",..and I quote,...."Troll"..simply for asking you a question......and it was you who was accused of "playing the man" in this thread, by forum members, not me. If you don't remember that, go through the thread & you'll find that to be the case.
Like I said, we have different opinions, NEVER a problem to me.
You have a habit of putting up "controversial" threads,, which invite comment,...nothing wrong with that at all, but it does not give you an excuse to use the terminology, or make personal derogatory comments against anyone,when discussion does not go as you would like, as you did.
If you put up other threads with which i disagree, I will say so, as you will with me.
Pickles.
6th October 2016, 08:47 PM
Blknight.aus

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob10

Finally some one gets it. Well done Dave. Thank you.

Its always been my stand point.

the biggest issue around it is intonation.

unfortunately proper "tribal" language does not easily translate to english. even dialect to dialect is in some cases difficult. even over coming the language barrier too many "proper" indigenous are besmirched by the reactions and perceptions created by their interbred brethren. The opinions of the valued few swamped, mired and lost in the torrent of overwhelming opinion.

Its a grey area thing. and in this particular grey area until the general populous of the "white fella" can be convinced that the opinion and belief of the few that still hold to the true ways should still be respected. Unfortunately while the perceived typical aboriginal is as it is.. it aint going to happen.
6th October 2016, 08:51 PM
Pickles2

Quote:

Originally Posted by pop058

:thumbsup:

This I believe this is the best outcome we can realistically hope for.

Thanks, that's what i thought, still do.
Pickles.
6th October 2016, 09:21 PM
Blknight.aus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chops

So, with this as my experience, can you tell me who decided that we (any non-Aboriginal) cant traverse the rock please. But, just so you understand where I'm coming from, it feels to me, as if someone has come from a distant place and said to the locals,,, "No, it has to be stopped, and here's why". So somewhat confused, I see it as the locals, who welcomed us with open arms, now don't have open arms. I don't understand, I'm sorry.
As I said in my earlier post, respect is everything, and next time I'm there, I'd love to be able to take my partner up there, preferably with a guide that can tell/explain to us what we want to know.
I'm hoping when we travel we will have the opportunity to be welcomed to the country and spend time with "the locals", and share in their culture.

Chops,

is this your original question you want answered?

if so...

its not easy. for the purists sorry in advance, Im not PC wordsmithing this, read the words as they are intended to be read and not for any offence you might be able to read into them if you go looking for it. And yes vague its only ment to be the dot point brief version

There is no original aboriginal law that states no white man may climb the rock. Whiteman wasnt around when the law was formed.
The original law prohibits the uninitiated or unescorted (thats not quite right but it will do for now) from climbing and it means ALL people not just the white fellas, uninitiated or unescorted blacks are just as unwelcome.
theres a hierarchy of access I dont understand it fully but effectively only elders are permitted into the most sacred areas and others that have been initated to the rock can escort others up the rock. Theres limits to this.
To get escorted up the rock you need to be invited by someone who has been initated up the rock
To get that you need to attend "story time" about the rock
to get that you need to be invited to the tribe.

How did I do it?

I got very lucky. Right place right time a couple of times, got an invite to an initiation and got an invite to sit in on "story time" and got an invite to go up the rock. I still haven't been to the most sacred spots but I don't have any real desire to. Doing so means a higher level of initiation what that requires is not something I'm prepared to commit to.

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