Should tourists climb Uluru?

**XDrive** · 22nd September 2016, 01:02 PM

Racism

A word often thrown around without too much thought as to the real meaning. Often used by one group, to close an argument or end any further discussion.

I have taken some extracts from the NSW Government Department of Education 'Racism. No Way.' document.

It may also be argued that in closing or limiting access to a particular area by one group and therefore exercising their power over another group. This action could also be construed as Racist behavior.

For those who wish to read further:-

An understanding of the nature of racism is essential in order to recognise and counter it successfully. Racism is a global phenomenon which is influenced by a range of historical, social, political and economic factors. It takes different forms in different contexts and as a result has been defined in many different ways. In Australia, the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (1998) defines it as:
"Racism is an ideology that gives expression to myths about other racial and ethnic groups, that devalues and renders inferior those groups, that reflects and is perpetuated by deeply rooted historical, social, cultural and power inequalities in society."
Racism is the result of a complex interplay of individual attitudes, social values and institutional practices. It is expressed in the actions of individuals and institutions and is promoted in the ideology of popular culture. It changes its form in response to social change.
Racism has its roots in the belief that some people are superior because they belong to a particular race, ethnic or national group. The concept of race is a social construct, not a scientific one. (For a discussion of the meaning of the word 'race', refer to the glossary).
Racist attitudes and beliefs are misconceptions about people based on perceived racial lines and are often founded on the fear of difference, including differences in customs, values, religion, physical appearance and ways of living and viewing the world. This includes negative attitudes towards the use of different languages, 'foreign' accents or the use of non-standard variations of a dominant community language. [1]
Racist attitudes may be manifested in a number of ways including common expressions of racial prejudice towards and stereotyped assumptions about other cultures as well as more extreme forms of prejudice such as xenophobia. These beliefs are reinforced by prevailing social attitudes towards people who are seen as different and are often a reflection of the values which underpin social relations and institutional practices.
These attitudes and beliefs find expression in racist behaviours, both in the actions of individuals and in the policies and entrenched practices of institutions. Where these behaviours involve unequal power relationships between individuals or groups from different cultural backgrounds, racist actions on the part of members of the dominant culture have the effect of marginalising those from minority groups.

Race
The term 'race' is an artificial construct used to classify people on the basis of supposed physical and cultural similarities deriving from their common descent. The Runnymede Trust (1993) provides a useful discussion of the word 'race':
"The words 'race' and 'racial' are much used in modern society - in everyday conversation, as also in legislation and in the media. Phrases such as 'race relations', 'race row', 'racial equality', 'racial group', 'racial harmony' and so on are in frequent use. However, they are not at all satisfactory. They are remnants of a belief formed in previous centuries, now discredited, that human beings can be hierarchically categorised into distinct 'races' or 'racial groups' on the basis of physical appearance, and that each so-called race or group has distinctive cultural, personal and intellectual capabilities."
"Modern science has shown that the biological category of race is meaningless when applied to the human species. Biologically, the human species shares a common gene pool, and there is much more genetic variation within each so-called racial group than between them (p 57)."
Despite having no biological basis, the idea of distinct races still exists as a social construct. In many societies it is a basis of social action, a foundation of government policy and often a justification for distinctive treatment of one group by another. Divisions in society continue to be made along perceived racial lines and associated disadvantages exist for those groups who are assumed to be physically or culturally different from the dominant cultural group. Although there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of human races, human beings tend to assume racial categories and to take them seriously. They do so for social, not biological, reasons.

New South Wales Government Department of Education 2105 'Racism. No Way'

XDrive

**Pickles2** · 22nd September 2016, 01:29 PM

Joe, well written post my friend, but I disagree with you.
Australia is for EVERYONE, and there should be NO boundaries for anyone, no matter who they are.
I'm just an ordinary Aussie, well some would say I'm not, 'cause my family emigrated from the UK in 1958, but I'm a naturalised Aussie now, & proud to be one.
I don't have any discriminatory views about any race or creed, as long as someone is a good person, they're ok by me, and I will respect, but not necessarily agree with, other people's opinions,...I simply ask the same in return. (In other words, everybody has a right to their opinion, without being derogatised for it)
Pickles.

**JoeFriend** · 22nd September 2016, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Pickles2

Joe, well written post my friend, but I disagree with you.
Australia is for EVERYONE, and there should be NO boundaries for anyone, no matter who they are.
I'm just an ordinary Aussie, well some would say I'm not, 'cause my family emigrated from the UK in 1958, but I'm a naturalised Aussie now, & proud to be one.
I don't have any discriminatory views about any race or creed, as long as someone is a good person, they're ok by me, and I will respect, but not necessarily agree with, other people's opinions,...I simply ask the same in return. (In other words, everybody has a right to their opinion, without being derogatised for it)
Pickles.

Pickles, not sure if you remember - but we had a lengthy discussion which did get rather heated at a pub in the high country a while back so I know your thoughts on a lot of things - I believe we both walked away unshaken in our own beliefs but respectful of the fact that someone else had a different point of view.

This is merely an extension of that, and me being respectful of your beliefs would preclude me from doing anything you would believe is sacrilegious, and I would expect the same in return.

This is what this is, stepping into a church and poking around and having a look is the same as walking around Uluru.

I would liken climbing Uluru at the same level as climbing up onto the alter to get a better view of the paintings on the roof of the Sistine Chapel.

You ask for respect to have your own thoughts and opinions on what you can and can't/should and shouldn't do but give no thought to anothers rights and wishes to do the same.

I don't agree with people who have made this personal, which I haven't - I am merely trying to convey to people the significance of this and what it's all about, and to try to show why it shouldn't be climbed. You are entitled to your opinion, I respect that even if I don't respect what your actual opinion is on this matter.

**vnx205** · 22nd September 2016, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by JoeFriend

.... ....

I would completely understand if this thread was deleted - I doubt there will be agreement on this ever so I don't see the point in keeping the thread alive. My 2 cents on it Inc.
... ....

Joe

I don't accept the argument that this thread should be deleted just because there will always be some disagreement and because some people are obviously not going to change their mind.

I often see opinions with which I disagree posted here. Even if I am unlikely to be persuaded to a different point of view, that does not mean that I am not interested in understanding why someone holds an opinion different from mine.

There has been a bit of talk here about understanding the views, culture or beliefs of others. I think that notion applies to giving me the opportunity to understand people who disagree with me. I may find their reasoning helpful or I might find it ludicrous, but as long as I resist the urge to attack them personally for holding that view, I believe it has been a beneficial exercise.

Even if I think some people are idiots, I believe there is some value in my knowing why they are so idiotic.

I am not going to read back over all this thread right now to see if the following comment applies to this thread. I have noticed that sometimes in the past the call for a thread to be deleted has come from someone who disagrees, but has not taken the trouble to explain in detail why they hold their view or to address the arguments presented by those who hold the opposing view.

While ever the posts remain civil and respectful of alternative views and while ever people take the trouble to explain the reasons for their attitude, I think threads like this serve a purpose.

**JoeFriend** · 22nd September 2016, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by vnx205

I don't accept the argument that this thread should be deleted just because there will always be some disagreement and because some people are obviously not going to change their mind.

I often see opinions with which I disagree posted here. Even if I am unlikely to be persuaded to a different point of view, that does not mean that I am not interested in understanding why someone holds an opinion different from mine.

There has been a bit of talk here about understanding the views, culture or beliefs of others. I think that notion applies to giving me the opportunity to understand people who disagree with me. I may find their reasoning helpful or I might find it ludicrous, but as long as I resist the urge to attack then personally for holding that view, I believe it has been a beneficial exercise.

Even if I think some people are idiots, I believe there is some value in my knowing why they are so idiotic.

I am not going to read back over all this thread right now to see if the following comment applies to this thread. I have noticed that sometimes in the past the call for a thread to be deleted has come from someone who disagrees, but has not taken the trouble to explain in detail why they hold their view or to address the arguments presented by those who hold the opposing view.

While ever the post remain civil and respectful of alternative views and while ever people take the trouble to explain the reasons for their attitude, I think threads like this serve a purpose.

Point taken - this has now gone to 8 pages long, with the usual slanging matches going on that is to be expected.

I have made multiple valid points, all of which are only countered with the notion that it isn't illegal so keep climbing, it is my right as an Australian.

Not one person has made a valid argument as to why they should be allowed to climb it - just because it has always been that way doesn't make it right, I am pretty sure that's why they got rid of slavery, different levels and very extreme but it's the same principle.

I am merely saying delete it because it is a conversation where the chance if changing anothers mind is highly marginal, and the debate goes around in circles until someone invokes the Hitler rule.

If you care to go back, you will see I have given my thoughts, reasons and logic behind each argument I have given. None have really been addressed.

And I love your point about thinking people are idiots but wanting to know why - but when it feels like they are belittling the the culture of a people you are part of, just because they feel that it isn't their beliefs is a bit much to stomach.

DiscoMick · 22nd September 2016, 02:29 PM

I don't see any reason to delete the thread. Are we afraid of listening to other peoples' opinions in case they make us reconsider our own opinions? That's just being closed minded and inflexible. Its good to consider what others say and try to improve our own thinking - that's improving our minds.
For myself, we chose not to climb, we had an interesting tour around the rock and enjoyed our visit to the cultural centre. I think we learnt more than if we had climbed.
I think those who refuse to try to understand the culture and worldview of the people there are themselves the losers because they go away having missed the chance to improve their understanding. They have missed out because of their own bad choices.
My opinion ...

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sheerluck · 22nd September 2016, 02:37 PM

Like Allan, I also believe the debate is worth keeping alive, because whilst the two opinions at either end of the spectrum are unlikely to change, there will still be those who genuinely didn't know, and are happy to be educated.

Many people would struggle to equate a natural geological feature with the concept of being sacred, but know and understand that building or monument type X, erected as a place of worship in the name of deity Y, could be sacred. They would avoid eating a bacon sandwich in the middle of a synagogue, wearing their best bondage gear to a mosque, or taking a dump in the font at the local church (none of which there are laws against), but hadn't seen the harm in walking on a bit of rock.
That said, there are those who would perform those actions, deliberately to insult or shock......

Every bit of education is worthwhile in my view. I've learned stuff in this thread that I didn't know.

**donh54** · 22nd September 2016, 03:02 PM

Personally, I would love to climb Uluru, BUT..... only under certain circumstances, e.g.

First, I would want to sit with some of the traditional people of the area, and gain as much understanding as possible of the significance it has to them;

Secondly, I would like to have the services of a guide, not only for the safety aspect, but to point out some of the features that have significance along the way, and to ensure I did not wander into any areas I was not entitled to enter;

Thirdly, and possibly most important, I would be willing to undergo any ceremonies/rituals they required, in order to do the climb with their blessing, and the blessing of whatever spirits inhabit the place.

**Homestar** · 22nd September 2016, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by JoeFriend

I would completely understand if this thread was deleted - I doubt there will be agreement on this ever so I don't see the point in keeping the thread alive. My 2 cents on it Inc.
Joe

If we deleted every thread where there was disagreement, there wouldn't be a whole left here to read...

I can't see why we can't have a good discussion about this while maintaining a calm and level head about it.

**Pickles2** · 22nd September 2016, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by JoeFriend

Pickles, not sure if you remember - but we had a lengthy discussion which did get rather heated at a pub in the high country a while back so I know your thoughts on a lot of things - I believe we both walked away unshaken in our own beliefs but respectful of the fact that someone else had a different point of view.

This is merely an extension of that, and me being respectful of your beliefs would preclude me from doing anything you would believe is sacrilegious, and I would expect the same in return.

This is what this is, stepping into a church and poking around and having a look is the same as walking around Uluru.

I would liken climbing Uluru at the same level as climbing up onto the alter to get a better view of the paintings on the roof of the Sistine Chapel.

You ask for respect to have your own thoughts and opinions on what you can and can't/should and shouldn't do but give no thought to anothers rights and wishes to do the same.

I don't agree with people who have made this personal, which I haven't - I am merely trying to convey to people the significance of this and what it's all about, and to try to show why it shouldn't be climbed. You are entitled to your opinion, I respect that even if I don't respect what your actual opinion is on this matter.

I can't remember such a discussion, & I don't get to the High Country very much, the only time I can remember was when Karen & I met a couple of other Defender drivers outside a Pub in Omeo, but that conversation was definitely not heated, so if you can enlighten me, that would be good.
Walking on Ayres Rock is NOTHING like climbing on an alter,...I can't remember anyone "climbing on an alter", but plenty of people have climbed on all sorts of places. CLIMBING on an alter is showing no respect, it would be like disfiguring/walking on Aboriginal Rock Art, something that I would never do. And I think I've mentioned, I did have respect & remembered where I was when I climbed the Rock, it made me think, and added to everything.
"Stepping around an alter"?... When the sacrements are in place that place is sacred, very sacred indeed, but we do not stop people from going there, or accessing any part of our church, whether they "believe" or not. We have plenty of "Sacred Sites". In many of our Churches, especially the older ones, there are graves, very sacred, but we don't stop people walking through them either.
Of course I have respect for your thoughts, but I don't have to agree with them, nor you with mine, which you obviously don't,....and I definitely have no problems with that.
But just so you're sure, I DEFINITELY do respect your views, and in terms of our "meeting" which I can't remember!!,... I'm glad that we both walked away respectful of each others views, because that would always be my aim.
Pickles.

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