Thread: Defender Puma 2.2 - voice your issues

Originally Posted by jannion

Hi all. I recently purchased the 2013 110 Defender in Nara Bronze. This is one of a small handful of Defenders I have owned & have always been a devout advocate. However, unfortunately I have found the new MY13 Defender to be a little short of the mark. I have had major hassles & are still trying to resolve a long list of issues with the vehicle (less than 40000kms). Land Rover have requested evidence of forums where similar problems with the gearbox, engine, driveline - basically PUMA in general are discussed. I would appreciate anyone that could post on this thread regarding any issues or altercations they have had with Land Rover or with the Defender. Below is a list of problems;

• Engine revs between gears causing slow & difficult gear changes
• unjustifiable drive line back lash at only 3000kms
• drive line vibration in low range
• underpowered in comparison to the 90 with only 150kms difference in Tare weight.

* just get used to it, it's not a sports car it's a diesel 4x4. Quick gear changes were never the intention for the vehicle.
*backlash isn't there if you slowly raise the clutch pedal. So again drive it slower and less aggressively
*slight vibration sounds pretty normal for low range in a puma
*if you want more go, get a bigger intercooler and get the ecu re flashed. Did you not drive it before you bought it? Surely you knew it wouldn't be fast?

After owning a 2013 Puma for four days I'm no expert, but I have owned Land Rovers for many years now in various states of dis-repair!

There are several factors everybody needs to understand regarding the backlash experienced in their Puma machines.

Firstly, this machine, I'm guessing, has the quietest engine so far, and any noises which they are hearing have been there in other machines, but have gone un-noticed because of the louder ambient noise in the cockpit! Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is certainly my experience going from a TDI300 110 to the 2013 Puma. This may not apply so much to the TDI5 with the DMF (Duel Mass Flywheel).

Secondly, the design of the transfer box has not really changed significantly over many years. Technologies such as herringbone gears have not been utilised. Which leads to the primary reason for such large amounts of backlash, the constant mechanical 4X4 drive train! A lot of little movements will add up to a lot! Remember, the centre diff needs to take the slack from itself, and both the front and rear axels before it can deliver power. This happens every time you change gear, and it happens every time you go around a corner, with neutral throttle going to positive or negative, or a roundabout as the front overtakes the rear due to the front travelling more distance!

Thirdly, there is also a good reason why the Rover wheel hub splines have a lot of tolerance, if a wheel bearing starts to move, then the concentricity of the wheel to the axel will change for the worse. If left unchecked, apart from the failure of the bearing, the axel will also be damaged. In fact the axel will start to bend every revolution. The low tolerance allows this wear to be picked up, but has the disadvantage of driveline backlash! On tight wheel hubs, you must keep a closer eye on wheel bearing condition, especially in harsh conditions! Tight wheel hubs do make a difference, and is worth looking at. I found that with my TDI 300 110.

The Puma driveline does have heritage , but I have found I’m now adapting my driving technique to suit. Land Rover Defenders last a long time, but it really helps the back pocket, and the longevity of the vehicle if you drive with mechanical sympathy!

Any corrections to the above are welcome!

Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this post, sorry that I have been quiet since my initial post but my wife and I just had our first baby. My defender recently went back to the dealer with a rather long list of faults, only to be returned with most unattended to most notable the backlash, gear box and power output. All this aside I still love it (must have rocks in my head). to the dealers credit they have offered a free service at 10,000km. If this was our first defender I probably wouldn't be so disappointed but I expected a lot more from the so called upgrade.

Originally Posted by inken_dave

Thirdly, there is also a good reason why the Rover wheel hub splines have a lot of tolerances ...

I´m inclined to think, that the tolerance can only be there accidentally. Give the build quality, which certainly is a heritage thing, this way it´d make more sense to me than them doing it intentionally

I like to see it the way that the wheel bearing "adjustment" with the spacer (from TD5 on) between the wheel bearings is a real improvement. They no longer turn down the stub axle and the adjustment will be permanent. If properly lubricated then there should be no noticeable wear. This in turn doesn´t speak against better drive members then ?

I have no problems with driving them. I just show them respect in gear changes and always remember that it's made for one thing ! That's not being used as a city runner on the M5 in Sydney.

Hats off to the people who respect this!

Originally Posted by landybehr

I´m inclined to think, that the tolerance can only be there accidentally. Give the build quality, which certainly is a heritage thing, this way it´d make more sense to me than them doing it intentionally

?

I think you are generally right! My 1954 Series 1 which my son and I are slowly restoring has almost the exact same design. Land Rover have been reluctant to upgrade their overall design.

I know that the backlash experienced by many, was in my Series IIA 109, Both Series 3 109 six's, Defender 110 TDI 300, and my Puma! So I haven’t been surprised and perhaps my driving style is already adapted!

I find that a slower gear changes help, but also keeping the engine revs up, even after the RPM "flare" has dropped off seems to help considerably

Another very strange observation is: Running my tyres at 27psi (I live on a very rough dirt road, and really helps ride and vibration) has really quietened my backlash noise.

Very strange I know, but it has helped somehow! Perhaps the extra drag on the road? I don't know!

The engine RPM "Flare" really helps the backlash problem (I suspect this is part of the reason for it) when you remove your foot suddenly from the throttle, you don't get the backlash bunt! On all my other machines, if you suddenly removed your foot from the throttle, you really felt and herd the backlash noise!

Landrover still have not learnt lessons from the early 1970s with the Japanese takeover of the 4wd market.
They still produce models with the same old mistakes.
A 80 series Toyota has constant 4wd like a defender( most likely copied from landrover) and they do not suffer backlash problems unless they have done much hard work and many ks under them.

Toyota are smart enough to produce axle and drive flanges in one piece and remove any possible causes for play.( I beleive Landover has not done this because they do not have the manufacturing equiptment to do so easliy.)

My 101 Landrover has axle drive flanges on a near forty year old vehivle with little wear and back lash in the drive train, because the flanges and axles are a reasonable size and the splines are oil lubricated and not run dry like late model defenders.

The throttle , reving in between gears is done to meet emissions .

Landrover have not done there home work and dont want to do so, as in the past they have proven they can do so.

Originally Posted by 101 Ron

Landrover still have not learnt lessons from the early 1870s with the Japanese takeover of the 4wd market.
They still produce models with the same old mistakes.
A 80s Toyota has constant 4wd like a defender( most likely copied from landrover) and they do not suffer backlash problems unless they have done much hard work and many ks under them.

Toyota are smart enough to produce axle and drive flanges in one piece and remove any possible causes for play.( I beleive Landover has not done this because they do not have the manufacturing equiptment to do so easliy.)

My 101 Landrover has axle drive flanges on a near forty year old vehivle with little wear and back lash in the drive train, because the flanges and axles are a reasonable size and the splines are oil lubricated and not run dry like late model defenders.

The throttle , reving in between gears is done to meet emissions .

Landrover have not done there home work and dont want to do so, as in the past they have proven they can do so.

These are good points...
I like a lot of others on here own a range of different year model landrovers and I do notice some things have been improved over the years but others have not.
Out of all my landrovers my 1986 model would have to be the best to drive on and off road.
All my mates drive patrols or cruisers and my partner owns a cruiser ute yeah the rides rough due to HD leafs but the driveline feels so much smoother and stronger than the rovers...be a bit harsh with the clutch in a Toyota and you don't have to worry about horrible noises come from somewhere under the car try doing it in a rover and see what happens...