Thread: Shuddering Clutch; 2010 Puma at 80k?

Originally Posted by fxap05250

Hi All,

Been a while since I posted anything. Still can't find that "Cape York Bush Tucker Man Map" and likely never will but that's another post.

My 2010 Landy Puma at 78000 kays recently developed a clutch shudder after a 1.5 hour country drive. Prior to that the clutch was perfect. What happens now is whenever I take off in 1st gear or more-so in reverse from a standing start - the beast will shudder (engine & gearbox - exactly like a worn out clutch); no noise or rattle - all very normal except for the shudder. The symptom is exactly like a worn out clutch. If I gas it up the shudder will reduce. When the vehicle is cold - there is no shudder whatsoever. It's only when it's warmed up.

I have experienced similar shudder in an old Datsun decades ago - cause was an oil seal in the drive shaft - slight leak was contaminating the pressure plate & clutch plate. (I personally had to replace the old Datsun clutch twice - because I missed the leaky oil seal the first time. Not a fun job without pits or hydraulic jack.)

Anyway I took the Defender to a privateer LandRover mechanic who reckons a few springs have likely given way (yes I know it was a problem on early Pumas' and there's bulletins on broken springs.) However there is no rattle, no noise whatsoever & no difficulty changing gears; just slight shudder and if you don't gas it up - it can get quite bad depending on whether you let the clutch our quick or gentle. Clutch fluid is fine - I've syringed it with fresh stuff several times because it was filthy. (Never trust the Dealer mechanics who tell you they've bled both brakes AND clutch. Anyway the mechanic told me syringing is fine for now because the bleed nipple is very difficult to access underneath <need two wrists and two elbows> AND this bleed nipple is made of plastic; easily stripped if not careful.)

I'm in two minds at whether to get it fixed or leave it because I spoke to a gentleman in passing who has owned nothing but LandRover Defenders' all his life and he reckons it's normal on some Defer Puma's. "Basically he said - some Puma's do it and some don't. Don't worry about it." I'm concerned long term or if and when I do some towing next. At $1000 to $1200 at less than 80k kilos' and a tight budget - do I or don't I? Any advice is most welcome...

Cheers
Chris

Mine gets a shudder uphill and in reverse - done so for at least the last 30,000k, might have done it before but I had a different driveway back then.

No clutch rattle and no other symptoms at all.

Maybe you have a leaking seal?

It's not a broken or loose engine or tranny mount? I did a clutch and flywheel on a td5 to cure a slight judder, and ended up with worse judder.

Lots of things cause this,uni joints,bushes,the A frame one causes really bad snatching or you could have one of the crappy clutches LR was supplied,if it's the clutch I would get LR to replace it as it is a known warranty job. Pat

Thanks for the replies. n plus one - I tend to go with what you say - that is that it's quite normal for some Puma's. Reverse is more noticeable and 1st from standing start - it's there. Revving it a bit does reduce the vibration. There is no grabbing, snatching or lurching - it's all normal except for the slight judder; no noises either. When it's cold - it's smooth. Unfortunately out of warranty Pat. Uni joints feel fine underneath and I've just greased all in the tail shafts.

My brother has the '08 Puma - he's done 10K more than me - his is all perfectly fine - smooth as a baby's bottom. The irony is - I waited 2+ years and watched to see if he would have problems before I decided to buy mine.

The privateer mechanic says the TD5s' had a seriously huge robust clutch; virtually a truck clutch and he reckons over 200k klicks' is fine out of one of those TD5 clutches. When LandRover went to the Ford Duratech - they put in a wee puny little clutch and it took them a while to get it right with different versions until the springs stopped breaking. Go figure as the Yanks say. I'm starting to learn to accept this and go with the advice from the old die hard Defender owner who currently owns several Puma's - "don't worry about it, some do and some don't judder." So I simply gas it up a little to minimise the judder. Just a bit annoying to have to put up with it if it is indeed the case of "some do and some don't." My brother does have a laugh and refers to my "Shaker" Defender compared to his....

I just thought I'd get more opinions and anyone out there who agrees with the bloke I spoke with...

Cheers
Chris

Originally Posted by BilboBoggles

It's not a broken or loose engine or tranny mount? I did a clutch and flywheel on a td5 to cure a slight judder, and ended up with worse judder.

Actually, that's a good point re the mounts - I'll check mine this weekend!

Chris,even though it's out of warranty if it's a faulty clutch LR will replace it out of goodwill.I would see them about it,it does sound like a faulty clutch,the springs fall out and cause all sorts of issue's. Pat

Having lived through 4 Clutch failures on my MY09, before Land rover put one in that lasted, in my experience a Clutch failure on a puma results in nasty knocking sounds when you switch off the engine, or Total Clutch failure if the springs jam the clutch, or nasty grinding sounds in low range. But I never had any clutch judder in any of the failures.

I did have a clutch judder issue on my TD5. I spent a lot of time investigating and from what I can tell there are many issues unrelated to the clutch that can cause clutch judder, and one or two in the clutch that can cause it. So if it is clutch related, then these are the areas to look at:

1 - Clutch face contamination. - A leaky rear main seal, or on a TD5 a leaky Fuel pressure regulator can allow oil or diesel onto the clutch surface - you can prove this using a borosocope using whatever access you can to the bell housing. You will see the contamination, sometimes you will be lucky and see it dripping out of the bottom of the bell housing. Fix the leak and drive it for a while and you may be lucky and it may go away. I had diesel contaminaiton on mine from a leaky fuel regulator, and I think that;s what caused this:

2 - Hot spots on the flywheel. Particularly if you slip the clutch a bit or tow and slip the clutch, you will get localised hot spots on the flywheel surface. This is where the surface has become heat hardened resulting in these spots becoming more and more protruding as the softer surrounding metal wears away. This is unfortunately fatal and requires a new flywheel and revised driving procedures. You can see these hot spots as shiny smears on the flywheel surface. Flywheels can develop hot spots due to their poor metal composition too - so not just bad driving style can cause this.

3 - Misalignment between the clutch and the flywheel. microscopic thickness variations in the clutch or flywheel can make your brand new clutch/flywheel judder like crazy. Eventually it will bed in and wear smooth. The brand new clutch in my TD5 took 30,000ks'... Now it's perfect.

4 - Worn gearbox input shaft - I did not experience this personally - but apparently a worn bearing on the gearbox can cause all sorts of odd issues due to alignment. (At least that's what I was told... Not sure I believe it though...)

You can live with clutch judder - it does put a little extra strain on the drive train if you are not careful. However it's bloody awful to drive a Defender with clutch judder, if you live with it you will end up hating to drive that Defender.. I did. Then I spent the nearly $7k on getting the clutch/flywheel/harmonic balance/power steering pump leak that ate the harmonic balancer + a few others things, done, and my old defender was eventually pleasant to drive again.


Unfortunately whilst the clutch on a TD5 is chunky, and the flywheel an impressive piece of art.. It's quite likely that by about 160,000 the bearing in the center if the dual mass TD5 flywheel is knackered, and that by 200,000 the flywheel will be due for replacement. The dual mass flywheel is a consumable on the TD5, but is awesome at reducing driveline vibration - something that would have made the 2.4 PUMA much more pleasant to live with. Interestingly the 2.2 I now have is now where near as rough as the 2.4 - I assume it's been programmed to reduce torsional vibration.

Originally Posted by fxap05250

My 2010 Landy Puma at 78000 kays recently developed a clutch shudder after a 1.5 hour country drive. Prior to that the clutch was perfect.

The fact this developed suddenly suggests to me it is more likely a drivetrain mount problem than either plate contamination or another wear related problem in the clutch itself.

I would be checking all engine & transmission mounting points very carefully before tackling the clutch itself.

Cheers,

Lionel