EV general discussion

Peak load is fine, beyond that - those hours the sun isn’t up - when the coal is gone, when the NG is gone and there isn’t a Nuke generator in sight - what will the majority be using for power?

And local transformers - they’re starting to hit their limits. Have been for a while now - they aren’t cheap, and will need replacement before they’re overloaded.

Been through this on a smaller scale at work recently - transformer and circuits at maximum - to install a split system required the old shower blocks heater to be disconnected permanently.

Also had to coordinate with SAPN for the new Eyre HV upgrade through site. The cost is obscene [emoji12] the work’s totally necessary though as current link is at maximum.

It’s going to be one VERY expensive future, and the environment won’t be any better off for it, and that’s truly saddening.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

Peak load is fine, beyond that - those hours the sun isn’t up - when the coal is gone, when the NG is gone and there isn’t a Nuke generator in sight - what will the majority be using for power?

And local transformers - they’re starting to hit their limits. Have been for a while now - they aren’t cheap, and will need replacement before they’re overloaded.

Been through this on a smaller scale at work recently - transformer and circuits at maximum - to install a split system required the old shower blocks heater to be disconnected permanently.

Also had to coordinate with SAPN for the new Eyre HV upgrade through site. The cost is obscene [emoji12] the work’s totally necessary though as current link is at maximum.

It’s going to be one VERY expensive future, and the environment won’t be any better off for it, and that’s truly saddening.

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Tossing using Carbon into the mix perhaps? This might offend some sorry!
Using tech for human like breast milk in the very cool Wendy Zukerman "Science V" tonight had yeast in the picture. I am very pleased to be optimistic on how we can fix IF science is helped not hindered by anti-types. I am still kicking myself for not recording an economic term for adding extra lanes to roads which in time slow the traffic flow as traffic increases to overwhelm the capacity! Overloaded is a given! Why I love u308 in my retirement plans. Energy density is clearly shown on the periodic scale Ok Osmium is not the one I mean[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U7QR6AalBM

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Originally Posted by Tins

There are already homeless camps on the Brisbane River. And don't go thinking the people there are no hopers. Lots have jobs, but they are unable to cope with the idiotic inflationary policies already. So it's a case of "I'm alright, Jack"? People who have done it hard ( for this country ) get to pay for YOUR choices. I should know. I lived on a carer's pension for five years, and then came out at the end of two people's lives to a world where jobs were non existent due to covid, and now I'm 70, and so I cannot afford a Tesla, or even solar on my roof. But I pay for yours. And for what?
Virtue signalling only gets you so far.

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I'm sorry things aren't going well for you and the country but I'm unsure what this has got to do with electric vehicles?

Here is a list of some of the things the government is spending our taxes on to sponsor fossil fuels. 57 Billion.

$57.1b: Record Breaking Fossil Fuel Subsidies Following Climate Election - The Australia Institute

2.1 Billion to subsidise private business to keep refineries open.

Refineries get $2b handout to stay open

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

So.. if what you say is true then what do we do? Like how do we handle this?

As you say our governments chose to sell a lot of this infra off. And now private business only have interests in maximum profits.

Do we just call the whole thing off and ban EV's? In which case the power providers just say "oh well" and keep on doing what they are doing.

I'm of the opinion that there are only two real options. The governments have to force companies to do the provision (not popular). Or present the companies with a problem and force them to fix it by customer demand. Electricity providers have an opportunity to sell more power. This seems to be the way it's going.

So what would you have us do?

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So which part of my post do you think I'm lying about? As to what we do - I'm all ears as no one is even trying to handle this once the numbers are bantered about. Why do you think it's either an all or nothing proposition? This is part of what makes me scratch my heads about the whole EV thing - most EV owners seem to think it's either an EV or nothing and those that don't want one or can't make them work are the spawn of Satan for some reason. We don't need to call EV's off - they'll find an equilibrium in the system between who wants them and where they can operate effectively due to infrastructure limitations - which will of course change from year to year, but don't expect there to be many choices for supercharging outside the main transport corridors. There will be odds and sods here any there but in so many places there just isn't the power available to install them.

The math shows the whole saga has decades yet to play out even if your the most committed EV believer, so who knows what the final mix will be between ICE, EV's, Hydrogen and whatever else throws it's hat into the ring in the meantime.

As to forcing the companies into these things - who's paying? All well and good you have the money to buy an EV and pay your electricity bill and not think about or have any financial issues, but what about the millions who can't? Just say '**** them - it's for their own good' and let power prices go up an order of magnitude because you and your rich mates want to drive anywhere in the country and have a supercharger available? - I've got news for you...

I know you don't believe me but when you've sat in a room full of Network Engineers trying to thrash this out and put numbers around it - let me know, because I have.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

No matter which way you cut it our EV power use is at worst a pool. Our AC is 20a and we can run that all day if it's hot. If you're really worried about forced grid upgrades maybe you should be campaigning against AC and pool usage. Perhaps more efficient building design?

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Well something we can agree on - there are far better ways of reducing our carbon footprint other than jumping in an EV. Building regs in Australia are horrible and the energy ''efficiency'' - I use the term loosely - are about the worst of any developed nation. Fixing this issue with new housing would help more than everyone jumping in EV's that's for sure - but again - this will come at a cost the Government would be unwilling to risk unpopularity for.

I put $3K of insulation in my roof 2 years ago and have cut down heating and cooling bills by over 60% - probably more as we've used the AC around 3 times in total for only a few hours each evening since doing so. Heater also hardly got used this Winter. By far a better investment than spending the same money on AC in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

I'm sorry things aren't going well for you and the country but I'm unsure what this has got to do with electric vehicles?

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Um - you posted earlier that the government should force the Networks to upgrade their assets so EV's can be charged quickly anywhere. It's the non EV drivers that will pay for this - Tins has a valid point IMO.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

I'm unsure what this has got to do with electric vehicles?

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If you read the post and Tombie's post before it that should be bloody obvious. I'm paying for YOUR choices. People will have to pay so you can supercharge your EV on the Nullabor. Nobody subsidises BP to run a fuel station out there. They built them because the market demanded them. And once built, they don't need subsidies to run them. They only need the roads to enable supply, not bloody great HT towers. Oh, that's right, your EV doesn't pay for the roads either; but my Disco does. You want everything but expect to pay for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Here is a list of some of the things the government is spending our taxes on to sponsor fossil fuels. 57 Billion.

$57.1b: Record Breaking Fossil Fuel Subsidies Following Climate Election - The Australia Institute

2.1 Billion to subsidise private business to keep refineries open.

Refineries get $2b handout to stay open

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None of that would be necessary at all if the Western Governments just left the market alone. Fossil fuels have never needed subsidies until James Hansen, Michael Mann and Al Gore became rich.

There is no business case for EVs or "renewables" without subsidy.

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Originally Posted by Homestar

Edit [biggrin]the whole saga of a room full of Network Engineers trying to thrash this out and put numbers around it

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Attachment 188103
Suspect you're the 99% [thumbsupbig]

Once EVs get the range via any of the options you mention it's a different story. Price and Cost are the key economic drivers.

One of the key drivers of cost is scale. The history and the evolution of Ford and most things lead to its success or failure.

The plans "French start-up emerges from stealth mode with plan to build huge battery gigafactory by 2023

Verkor aims to build 16GWh facility in France to reduce Europe's dependence on imported lithium-ion batteries" They missed?


The battery startup Britishvolt. With the looming UK ban on sales of internal combustion engine cars after 2035, Huge demand for batteries was guaranteed. The problem was actually building the batteries. It swings over to Australia???[bigrolf] "Recharge Industries, which is owned by New York fund Scale Facilitation Partners, has entered an agreement to buy Britishvolt's business and assets.
Britishvolt was put into administration after running out of money." HUGE Miss hand balled to us?

Is the Recharge Industries on track? Our Business | Recharge Industries
Cannot call Recharge a Hit or Miss yet! Very nice pictures of hopes or is it dreams?

Meanwhile Korea, China, Japan and US are steaming ahead at scale Add Germany via "Giga Berlin or Gigafactory 4)"
the "Giga Fest" celebration of completion was held in October 2021-On 22 March 2022, the factory was officially opened.

I did have a list of giga factories five years ago. Lots of very hot air and bucket loads of cash or cash burn. It was a long list. Only some delivered of course.


PS USER pays is fine with me.

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Originally Posted by Tins

If you read the post and Tombie's post before it that should be bloody obvious. I'm paying for YOUR choices. People will have to pay so you can supercharge your EV on the Nullabor. Nobody subsidises BP to run a fuel station out there. They built them because the market demanded them. And once built, they don't need subsidies to run them. They only need the roads to enable supply, not bloody great HT towers. Oh, that's right, your EV doesn't pay for the roads either; but my Disco does. You want everything but expect to pay for nothing.



None of that would be necessary at all if the Western Governments just left the market alone. Fossil fuels have never needed subsidies until James Hansen, Michael Mann and Al Gore became rich.

There is no business case for EVs or "renewables" without subsidy.

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We all get to pay for roads you (we) drive on John. re "business case for EVs or "renewables" Solar at work had no subsidies and paid for itself very quickly. The cost saving just not servicing my Disco over the 55,000 km of my cheap and quirky prior ev is in my view a clear economic win for me[thumbsupbig]

My hunting mates pay packet is sort of subsidized via FBT exemption on Salary Sacrifice (S.S) of his new EV. He did comment I should have told him about S.S. a long time ago.

S.S is not just for EVs and has been a long-used tax planning tool!

"Fossil fuel subsidies have been described as "any government action that lowers the cost of fossil fuel energy production, raises the price received by energy producers, or lowers the price paid by energy consumers." "fossil fuel industry benefits from subsidies of $11m every minute, according to analysis by the International Monetary Fund."

Not knowing how much things cost may have us playing in glass houses tossing stones? Government subsidies can be a good thing "if" directed to create or maintain wealth. Government subsidies for White elephants are not good things [biggrin]

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Originally Posted by Homestar

Well something we can agree on - there are far better ways of reducing our carbon footprint other than jumping in an EV. Building regs in Australia are horrible and the energy ''efficiency'' - I use the term loosely - are about the worst of any developed nation. Fixing this issue with new housing would help more than everyone jumping in EV's that's for sure - but again - this will come at a cost the Government would be unwilling to risk unpopularity for.

I put $3K of insulation in my roof 2 years ago and have cut down heating and cooling bills by over 60% - probably more as we've used the AC around 3 times in total for only a few hours each evening since doing so. Heater also hardly got used this Winter. By far a better investment than spending the same money on AC in the first place.

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Definitely agree with this. And with Victoria phasing out gas and forcing new housing to use reverse cycle air conditioning to keep the house warm in winter, electric cooktops, and electric water heaters, this must put more load on the grid per household than an EV will add.

We did take up the VIC government’s energy efficiency upgrade program to replace the 50 halogen lights throughout the house with LED. This reduced our daily energy usage by around 5kwhr, enough power to run a typical EV around 12,000km a year.

It is possible to transition to EV’s without putting more load on the grid when coupled with other energy savings at home, and if charged daily most charging could be done off peak.