Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by Tombie

Until they take a few kwh and next day you cannot drive where you planned.

This entire concept of V2G is ludicrous. With Nuke base load it would be conceivable, with renewables (which they really aren’t as the minerals mined aren’t growing back any time soon) in their current form just can not keep us powered.

New gen chargers are incredibly high current, the grid will not cope if the uptake is forced. Its billions to get the grid up to speed, and then there now constant source. Slices of silica won’t be enough.

Comparing pool ownership to vehicle ownership is straw man at best, almost everyone has a car, only a small percentage have a pool. Nobody is mandating a pool! And a pool only pulls ~10a or less when the pumps on.

Local EV evangelist with a model 3 made me laugh.
He just got it, and so happy is he, he went and fitted $25k of solar and battery to charge it.

Quotes $38.00 for a return trip to Adelaide which has 2 charge stops for safety margin and 15min at each. The catch - he covers an extra 100km to follow the chargers.

Then tells me he’s so happy with the savings on fuel - and mocks my diesel consumption, all whilst paying off a Tesla and $25k of solar/battery system.

On the other hand - I generate solar and get $0.52c/kwh and get cash back every quarter. My cash back is about his solar payments. By the time he’s paid it off, he will need a new battery!

Electric grid on Nuke and ultra fast charge cells (no REEs) will be a game changer - until then EV owners are just ****ing the planet remotely and not locally.

I cannot stand Mockers/Smart arses, can you not spike a tyre or two, or even put a heavy bridging piece? between + & Neutral? As my underwater friend would say when ducking for cover, "Just Joking"

Originally Posted by Tombie

Until they take a few kwh and next day you cannot drive where you planned.

This entire concept of V2G is ludicrous. With Nuke base load it would be conceivable, with renewables (which they really aren’t as the minerals mined aren’t growing back any time soon) in their current form just can not keep us powered.

New gen chargers are incredibly high current, the grid will not cope if the uptake is forced. Its billions to get the grid up to speed, and then there now constant source. Slices of silica won’t be enough.

Comparing pool ownership to vehicle ownership is straw man at best, almost everyone has a car, only a small percentage have a pool. Nobody is mandating a pool! And a pool only pulls ~10a or less when the pumps on.

Local EV evangelist with a model 3 made me laugh.
He just got it, and so happy is he, he went and fitted $25k of solar and battery to charge it.

Quotes $38.00 for a return trip to Adelaide which has 2 charge stops for safety margin and 15min at each. The catch - he covers an extra 100km to follow the chargers.

Then tells me he’s so happy with the savings on fuel - and mocks my diesel consumption, all whilst paying off a Tesla and $25k of solar/battery system.

On the other hand - I generate solar and get $0.52c/kwh and get cash back every quarter. My cash back is about his solar payments. By the time he’s paid it off, he will need a new battery!

Electric grid on Nuke and ultra fast charge cells (no REEs) will be a game changer - until then EV owners are just ****ing the planet remotely and not locally.

V2G is not ludicrous! It's benefit is for covering small peaks. There is plenty of time to make them up over night.

My solar is like 6 years old. I didn't get the rort rate which finished 2011.

As to charge rates.. my car is charging as we speak at 5a while I wait for the sun to really go. Rarely do I ever charge anyhwhere near the max.

And pools.. there are 7 in my street alone and only one EV. There are currently 3.1 million backyard pools in Aus and 100k electric cars. It's going to be years until EV's outnumber pools. All the houses in my street have AC. Yet no one is worried that AC or pools will kill the grid.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Yet no one is worried that AC or pools will kill the grid.

Where you are, the AC units generally only run for a few months,if that ,of the year.Some may run them all year round,but when it is not extremely hot or cold,they cycle and don't use much power at all.

And as you know the main reasons for blackouts in QLD, during periods of hot weather are the number of AC units that are being used.

As said,pool pumps consume bugga all power,and don't run continually.

Charging an EV once or twice a week,or every day if it used for work,and clocks up quite a few K's,is going to use a heap more power than any pool pump and AC.

Originally Posted by scarry

Where you are, the AC units generally only run for a few months,if that ,of the year.Some may run them all year round,but when it is not extremely hot or cold,they cycle and don't use much power at all.

And as you know the main reasons for blackouts in QLD, during periods of hot weather are the number of AC units that are being used.

As said,pool pumps consume bugga all power,and don't run continually.

Charging an EV once or twice a week,or every day if it used for work,and clocks up quite a few K's,is going to use a heap more power than any pool pump and AC.

So, if as you say the grid is groaning in hot periods ... when everyone is running their AC.. yet they don't use too much power?

So how is it ok for a pool to use 3000 kwh a year, and not an EV? I'm really confused why you'd say that. It doesn't make any sense at all. I'm telling you - we do about 15k a year which is bang on the national average and we'll use about 3000 kwh this year. Some people might do more. Some people might do less.

The average swimming pool will cost between $660 and $1,000 to run annually – consuming between 2,000 and 3,000 kilowatt hours of electricity. That’s about $23 each week! This cost takes into account the ongoing cost of your pool pump, but does not include heating – that’s going to be extra!

How Much Energy Does A Swimming Pool Use? - Canstar Blue

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

So, if as you say the grid is groaning in hot periods ... when everyone is running their AC.. yet they don't use too much power?

So how is it ok for a pool to use 3000 kwh a year, and not an EV? I'm really confused why you'd say that. It doesn't make any sense at all. I'm telling you - we do about 15k a year which is bang on the national average and we'll use about 3000 kwh this year. Some people might do more. Some people might do less.

The average swimming pool will cost between $660 and $1,000 to run annually – consuming between 2,000 and 3,000 kilowatt hours of electricity. That’s about $23 each week! This cost takes into account the ongoing cost of your pool pump, but does not include heating – that’s going to be extra!

[URL="https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/how-much-energy-does-a-swimming-pool-use/"]How Much Energy Does A Swimming Pool Use? - Canstar Blu/URL]

Average figures are just a guess,often way,way off the mark.Variations in the energy different domestic pool set ups would use would be huge.

Anyway,looks like you will have to stay confused

You’re using averages again - the peaks will come when there are EVs - that are used DAILY, then come home and plug in for the night (so little to no solar assist).

This applies to MOST of Australia, not the few northern parts where sunlight is plentiful after the normal day is done.

ACs and Pools when they cut in are lazy, just a few amps of demand. EVs with decent chargers are pulling 20-50amp. Some are proposing going 175a charging - that’s 17 pool pumps all running at once.

Even a low spec EV charging at 25a is ~3 pools at once.
That means only another 900k of EVs and we’re drawing the same current as ALL pools running at once! Imagine that on Wednesday night, over 30° outside, everyone’s AC on… can you say Brown/Black Out!

There’s a reason grid base load is high when everyone gets home now, imagine it when everyone comes home, throws on the AC, kicks the pool on so they can have a swim and then plugs in the good old EV ready for the morning!

As for getting the high FIT, I paid for that privilege- arrays were $15k back then. Fortunately its ROI was 3 years.

Once the pressure is on to radically upgrade the grid, and the price is disclosed, watch the prices climb - power distribution isn’t cheap, and we will all pay for it in spades. Those who can least afford it (and likely won’t own a car under 15 years old) will get ****ed over twice - their home energy bills will skyrocket (already are) and their fuel bills will likely follow (less demand, less volume, higher prices).

It’s easy to sit back and say it’s progress, if you’re in a position like me and my wife, however for those on lower incomes, this is going to push them over the edge financially. On costs will show up in support services, petty crime increases, reduced standard of living for many and other side effects.

Like renewables, once the true cost is realised and subsidies are revoked, only then will the true position be fully understood.

In the meantime, the early adopters can enjoy the benefits.

Originally Posted by Tombie

You’re using averages again - the peaks will come when there are EVs - that are used DAILY, then come home and plug in for the night (so little to no solar assist).

This applies to MOST of Australia, not the few northern parts where sunlight is plentiful after the normal day is done.

ACs and Pools when they cut in are lazy, just a few amps of demand. EVs with decent chargers are pulling 20-50amp. Some are proposing going 175a charging - that’s 17 pool pumps all running at once.

Even a low spec EV charging at 25a is ~3 pools at once.
That means only another 900k of EVs and we’re drawing the same current as ALL pools running at once! Imagine that on Wednesday night, over 30° outside, everyone’s AC on… can you say Brown/Black Out!

There’s a reason grid base load is high when everyone gets home now, imagine it when everyone comes home, throws on the AC, kicks the pool on so they can have a swim and then plugs in the good old EV ready for the morning!

As for getting the high FIT, I paid for that privilege- arrays were $15k back then. Fortunately its ROI was 3 years.

Once the pressure is on to radically upgrade the grid, and the price is disclosed, watch the prices climb - power distribution isn’t cheap, and we will all pay for it in spades. Those who can least afford it (and likely won’t own a car under 15 years old) will get ****ed over twice - their home energy bills will skyrocket (already are) and their fuel bills will likely follow (less demand, less volume, higher prices).

It’s easy to sit back and say it’s progress, if you’re in a position like me and my wife, however for those on lower incomes, this is going to push them over the edge financially. On costs will show up in support services, petty crime increases, reduced standard of living for many and other side effects.

Like renewables, once the true cost is realised and subsidies are revoked, only then will the true position be fully understood.

In the meantime, the early adopters can enjoy the benefits.

The max amperage on single phase is 32a. In QLD they are trying to limit this to 20a. People with three phase chargers at home would be quite rare. Most cars limit AC charging anyway. The teslas are 11kwh max.

15000k a year = 42k a day. We have averaged about 8kwh a day, which includes charging losses. if you have a 10 amp pool pump on 230v that's 2.3kwh a hour. Lets say I charge like that.. I can have a topped up car in 3:50 minutes a day. If I set it to 5A which is the minimum I can do, I'd have it topped up in 8h. The car has good functionality to set charging schedules so can easily be done in the wee hours.

The only time we don't have enough power is at evening peak. So a car charged over night is of no concern. If they wan't to stop EV's charging at peak, they will mandate it or offer sweat deals to encourage off peak usage.

Yes I'm using average. Yes some people will drive more. But some people will drive less.

No matter which way you cut it our EV power use is at worst a pool. Our AC is 20a and we can run that all day if it's hot. If you're really worried about forced grid upgrades maybe you should be campaigning against AC and pool usage. Perhaps more efficient building design?

EDIT: If the EV transition is done well there is a chance it could make power cheaper (Well the power companies will probably just pocket higher profits). We just have to actually have a think about it. It's about managing load so that you get the maximum use out of infrastructure. Unfortunately no one wants to think about this at this juncture due to not many EV's.

The max current on single phase is limited by the supply to the house not any regs.

I have a 50amp single phase supply feeding my phase changer to run a 12HP lathe. My house supply is 50amp so this is what limits the circuit I can put in.

I just don’t use the kettle when I start the lathe…