EV general discussion

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Originally Posted by Tombie

A tax break is far different to a subsidy...

If I give you something for nothing, thats a damn big difference over paying you to take it..


Lets look at EVs

• federal government removed import tariff on all EVs
• federal government raised LCT threshold on EVs

• ACT
  
  • Free registration for EVs for 2 years
  • Discount for hybrids
  • Interest free loans

• QLD
  
  • Rebates up to $6000 (this comes out of tax payers pockets)
  • Discounted rego

These are the 2 big players - most other states have ceased their incentives / rebates or reduced significantly...

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You are right - the big difference between tax brakes and subsidies in this case is that subsidies are in this case given to lower income households to encourage them into lower priced EV's. Unlike the subsidy my post is about which is giving massive tax breaks on potentially very expensive cars to business owners.

For clarity.
- Point 2 the feds raised the LCT on "fuel efficient vehicles" and not specifically EV's.
- QLD does not discount registration for EV's. They are charged at the 4cyl rate.
- The QLD EV rebate applies to households with total income of less than $150k.
- The claimant cannot use leasing to buy the car so cannot access that way to purchase.
- The vehicles originally had to be less than 58k, and the scheme had almost no takers so was increased to 68k.
- The scheme is limited. The government has allocated 45 million and once that's gone its finished. As at July there was only 4 million left so better get in quick!

It's only a couple of years since the feds "of a different colour" allowed "instant asset write off" for equipment for businesses. It was so attractive that we bought so many utes it increased out GDP! Put that into context next to the cost of these schemes.

We need to reduce the number of large fuel efficient vehicles we are buying. We need to encourage people to make good choices. Because once an ICE car hits the roads, it continues polluting at the same rate until for it's life. I sure hope we don't end up buying ICE cars off the roads that we subsidised the purchase of in the early 2030's!

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

All for balance mate and thanks for the vid :)

I guess the, for me at least, important part is the proprietary recycling techniques. We know how recycling an ICE works, it's metal after all and we have been doing that since the -drumroll- iron age! Lead acid batteries are also the simplest of devices to recycle, from that perspective they are like the incandescent light bulb. Easy "sturdy" and near 100% recyclable, even by an idiot with a hammer.

I personally can't see how you can recycle, say, up to 98% (like lead acid figures) of a lithium battery with its complex chemical composition, other stuff like cobalt anodes and the construction of the damn things. I am not saying it is completely impossible but until I SEE them do it, from step 1 to the last I am sceptical about the projected numbers.

Regarding tax breaks, who really cares? nobody it seems. In my personal opinion subsidies of any kind should be illegal. It also suggested large parts of the (western?) world have been sponsoring the oil industry and all that comes with it for a long long time and perhaps even to this day (and I guess they will have to in the near future^*) giving it the moniker "big oil" but it seems we learned nothing from that, at all. The only thing that has happened is that big oil is being replaced with "big green" lobbying to destroy other things and more importantly, more money out of our pockets (direct or indirect)

^*Why do I think this? Allow me to elaborate. I suspect that the reverse of what is happening with the eletrical-"revolution" will happen to let's call it FuelVehicles. When/IF there are more EV's on the road in comparison to FV's it will no longer be (economically) sustainable to run a petrol station. The costs of all the regulations and what not are quite high and can only be recouped if you sell enough fuel. The same economies of scale are going to happen to the refining of fuel etc etc. This in turn means that in the regions/areas/applications where an EV just won't cut it an FV will have to do the job. In order to keep those people/machines moving it may become necessary for the government to put money into it in order for them not to grind to a halt. I wonder how loud the greenies are going to shout by that time.

-P

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Originally Posted by prelude

All for balance mate and thanks for the vid :)

I guess the, for me at least, important part is the proprietary recycling techniques. We know how recycling an ICE works, it's metal after all and we have been doing that since the -drumroll- iron age! Lead acid batteries are also the simplest of devices to recycle, from that perspective they are like the incandescent light bulb. Easy "sturdy" and near 100% recyclable, even by an idiot with a hammer.

I personally can't see how you can recycle, say, up to 98% (like lead acid figures) of a lithium battery with its complex chemical composition, other stuff like cobalt anodes and the construction of the damn things. I am not saying it is completely impossible but until I SEE them do it, from step 1 to the last I am sceptical about the projected numbers.

Regarding tax breaks, who really cares? nobody it seems. In my personal opinion subsidies of any kind should be illegal. It also suggested large parts of the (western?) world have been sponsoring the oil industry and all that comes with it for a long long time and perhaps even to this day (and I guess they will have to in the near future^*) giving it the moniker "big oil" but it seems we learned nothing from that, at all. The only thing that has happened is that big oil is being replaced with "big green" lobbying to destroy other things and more importantly, more money out of our pockets (direct or indirect)

^*Why do I think this? Allow me to elaborate. I suspect that the reverse of what is happening with the eletrical-"revolution" will happen to let's call it FuelVehicles. When/IF there are more EV's on the road in comparison to FV's it will no longer be (economically) sustainable to run a petrol station. The costs of all the regulations and what not are quite high and can only be recouped if you sell enough fuel. The same economies of scale are going to happen to the refining of fuel etc etc. This in turn means that in the regions/areas/applications where an EV just won't cut it an FV will have to do the job. In order to keep those people/machines moving it may become necessary for the government to put money into it in order for them not to grind to a halt. I wonder how loud the greenies are going to shout by that time.

-P

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if you go back a page ... maybe two there is a really good post that outlines how the batteries can be processed. The problem is it is like solar panels ... they "can" be recycled. but are they ......... I'm not convinced the final processing of the shredded batteries is not terrible for the environment either. what do we do with the toxic melted down sludge left over ? Like everything, there is probably a way to handle it, but do we?

The problem is when it comes to electric cars, you just can't believe anything the zealots screams (I dont' mean poeple posting here when I say that, I mean the sheer insanity in the media). Electric car owners/lovers often come across as almost members of cults :)

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Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

if you go back a page ... maybe two there is a really good post that outlines how the batteries can be processed. The problem is it is like solar panels ... they "can" be recycled. but are they ......... I'm not convinced the final processing of the shredded batteries is not terrible for the environment either. what do we do with the toxic melted down sludge left over ? Like everything, there is probably a way to handle it, but do we?

The problem is when it comes to electric cars, you just can't believe anything the zealots screams (I dont' mean poeple posting here when I say that, I mean the sheer insanity in the media). Electric car owners/lovers often come across as almost members of cults :)

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Regardless of the success or failure of EV's - the recycling of Lithium batteries is going to be something that we have to sort. They are just in everything now. Try buying a bluetooth speaker that only works by being plugged into the power? Everything has a lithium battery in it.

And I'd like to think that all the contributors in this thread can at least agree on this - it's really hard to discuss anything about EV's without without wild opinions and crazy "facts" being thrown in. MSM is really not helping.

EV's are just cars with batteries. It's got four doors, four wheels. You get in it and you drive it. Their batteries at this point are lithium based and they probably will be for a while, but they might not always be. There will likely be better batteries with higher energy density. Hopefully they are also easily recycled.

https://youtu.be/2eIPHX-NpMM'si=vpUYgIG9lU-GnfiO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by prelude

All for balance mate and thanks for the vid :)

I guess the, for me at least, important part is the proprietary recycling techniques. We know how recycling an ICE works, it's metal after all and we have been doing that since the -drumroll- iron age! Lead acid batteries are also the simplest of devices to recycle, from that perspective they are like the incandescent light bulb. Easy "sturdy" and near 100% recyclable, even by an idiot with a hammer.

I personally can't see how you can recycle, say, up to 98% (like lead acid figures) of a lithium battery with its complex chemical composition, other stuff like cobalt anodes and the construction of the damn things. I am not saying it is completely impossible but until I SEE them do it, from step 1 to the last I am sceptical about the projected numbers.

Regarding tax breaks, who really cares? nobody it seems. In my personal opinion subsidies of any kind should be illegal. It also suggested large parts of the (western?) world have been sponsoring the oil industry and all that comes with it for a long long time and perhaps even to this day (and I guess they will have to in the near future^*) giving it the moniker "big oil" but it seems we learned nothing from that, at all. The only thing that has happened is that big oil is being replaced with "big green" lobbying to destroy other things and more importantly, more money out of our pockets (direct or indirect)

^*Why do I think this? Allow me to elaborate. I suspect that the reverse of what is happening with the eletrical-"revolution" will happen to let's call it FuelVehicles. When/IF there are more EV's on the road in comparison to FV's it will no longer be (economically) sustainable to run a petrol station. The costs of all the regulations and what not are quite high and can only be recouped if you sell enough fuel. The same economies of scale are going to happen to the refining of fuel etc etc. This in turn means that in the regions/areas/applications where an EV just won't cut it an FV will have to do the job. In order to keep those people/machines moving it may become necessary for the government to put money into it in order for them not to grind to a halt. I wonder how loud the greenies are going to shout by that time.

-P

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People need to calm their farm. There are lots of things that don't suit electrification, or that aren't worth changing etc. For example - people in rural Australia are likely to be relying on liquid fuels for a long time although I expect electrification will creep in. I'd like to think that my message has been pretty consistent. Let's not focus on the hard things and just start with the easy things that we have answers for now.

I agree there are going to be lots of changes. I looked at a new servo being put in the other day and wondered what the 10 year business plan was. None the less I personally can't see a time in the next 50 years where you won't be able to rock down to a shop of some sort and buy liquid fuel. You'll know we are getting towards the end when there aren't pumps and it comes in cans. Back to the future!

What does interest me is how we will handle things as we use less oil. As we know every barrel of oil has a relatively fixed breakdown of refined products. What if we stop burning petrol and really only use heavier fuels like aviation and diesel? What do we do with the petrol? What if the total demand for liquid fuels decreases but the requirement for other fractions continues? Perhaps our future might be very very cheap petrol and diesel.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

Good Luck!

Id be surprised if it gets 200km with a Boat on back - with a tailwind, downhill

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Test drive - MEH - no tow bar information at all from dealer and they have been selling them for about a year now.
No way I'll be the crash test dummy for how much range reduction occurs.

The dealer who came with me did mention 550 ish is the real or likely max range rather than the silly some how legally published claims [biggrin] Thats not just a EV issue of course. "BYD claims a 650km NEDC range, which is mildly preposterous, so let’s start with the more realistic 570km WLTP figure"[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Its heavy compared to my MG4. May be an option for some. Max charge rate is 150kWh and the regenerative braking is very light.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Regardless of the success or failure of EV's - the recycling of Lithium batteries is going to be something that we have to sort. They are just in everything now. Try buying a bluetooth speaker that only works by being plugged into the power? Everything has a lithium battery in it.

And I'd like to think that all the contributors in this thread can at least agree on this - it's really hard to discuss anything about EV's without without wild opinions and crazy "facts" being thrown in. MSM is really not helping.

EV's are just cars with batteries. It's got four doors, four wheels. You get in it and you drive it. Their batteries at this point are lithium based and they probably will be for a while, but they might not always be. There will likely be better batteries with higher energy density. Hopefully they are also easily recycled.

https://youtu.be/2eIPHX-NpMM'si=vpUYgIG9lU-GnfiO

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Yes definitely. The problem with an electric car is the sheer size of the battery. A drill battery that fails and torches off is one thing, a house or car battery is just another universe of hurt. They really have changed our world and are remarkable things. Have a look at Ecigaretes if you want a suprise. the damn things have lithium batteries in them :o ..... how many garbage trucks are they going to torch off when the battery electronics get wet!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

People need to calm their farm. There are lots of things that don't suit electrification, or that aren't worth changing etc. For example - people in rural Australia are likely to be relying on liquid fuels for a long time although I expect electrification will creep in. I'd like to think that my message has been pretty consistent. Let's not focus on the hard things and just start with the easy things that we have answers for now.

I agree there are going to be lots of changes. I looked at a new servo being put in the other day and wondered what the 10 year business plan was. None the less I personally can't see a time in the next 50 years where you won't be able to rock down to a shop of some sort and buy liquid fuel. You'll know we are getting towards the end when there aren't pumps and it comes in cans. Back to the future!

What does interest me is how we will handle things as we use less oil. As we know every barrel of oil has a relatively fixed breakdown of refined products. What if we stop burning petrol and really only use heavier fuels like aviation and diesel? What do we do with the petrol? What if the total demand for liquid fuels decreases but the requirement for other fractions continues? Perhaps our future might be very very cheap petrol and diesel.

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I'd bet my life savings .... everything I own that we are still using petrol/diesel in 50 years time. sure we might have a small percentage of cars that are electric. But all of transport, aeroplanes, trains, trucks, busses, shipping, heating .... well everything, even the cloths on your back are made from oil products. I agree though, it will be very interesting to see what the greeny nutters try to force on us next. Maybe it will even be something that is actually reasonable, if so, people will just do it without mandates and government intervension :)

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Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

I'd bet my life savings .... everything I own that we are still using petrol/diesel in 50 years time. sure we might have a small percentage of cars that are electric. But all of transport, aeroplanes, trains, trucks, busses, shipping, heating .... well everything, even the cloths on your back are made from oil products. I agree though, it will be very interesting to see what the greeny nutters try to force on us next. Maybe it will even be something that is actually reasonable, if so, people will just do it without mandates and government intervension :)

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More than a few might have thought that about horses?[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Fully agree "actually reasonable" is the only reason to have anything.

Interesting watching trends. "The impacts of the government’s incoming efficiency regulations could reach the secondary car market, as buyers seek out used cars instead. The secondary effects of the New Vehicle Efficiency Standard (NVES) – the forthcoming laws designed to improve the fuel economy and reduce tailpipe emissions of new cars – are expected to be felt in the used-car market in the coming years.

Industry experts claim the NVES will quash the new-car market by as much as 19 per cent, significantly increasing demand – and potentially prices – for used cars as buyers look to side-step the new regulations.
In a presentation at the Australian Automotive Dealers Association’s (AADA) annual conference, industry analysts from company BDO Automotive said the NVES will heavily impact the profitability of dealerships – with the secondary car market one of the only beneficiaries.
However, the news is unlikely to be good for consumers, who are already facing record-high cost-of-living expenses – with transport costs accounting for 17 per cent of household budgets, according to the Australian Automobile Association (AAA).
Industry analysts told a packed conference of dealership representatives from across the country the NVES was expected to lead to an initial spike in used-car sales with supply likely to become a challenge “as trade-in opportunities decline”.

The news comes after the AADA published figures showing used-car sales had already increased by 16 per cent in the first half of 2024.
With the NVES set to come into effect on 1 January 2024, the new-car industry is bracing for two years of turmoil before the market settles.
The post Car industry bracing for spike in used-car demand following emissions laws appeared first on Drive."

Personally, I'll try to never use a petrol lawn mower again. The electric one is quiet. doesn't make me stink of exhaust fumes and starts every time with no swearing[biggrin]

Each to their own I say

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Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

Have a look at Ecigaretes if you want a suprise. the damn things have lithium batteries in them :o

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Great source of project cells.