Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by DiscoDB

I expect most EVs will be written off or sold for scrap before the battery reaches end of life.

Watching the drivers, that doesn't surprise me at all.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

Its not far off the western freeway onramp. Certainly NOT somewhere I would choose to park outside business hours. You should be ok over there during the day. Yes oppostie the westyland shopping center.

I think I saw a tesla at one once ..... they should be generally empty. As most locals would be charign at home overnight.... and who'd be nuts enough to travel distances away from home in an electric throw-away

I agree - a Stockland Shopping centre in Wendouree would be a pretty frightening place to visit. Plus you would probably run into Kev at Supercheap Auto - and despite having ev in his name he definitely does not like EVs. He’s doing it tough after Bev left him.

Definitely charge at home for around 25c/kWhr. For a typical EV using 20kWhr/100km that’s only 5c/km.

Originally Posted by BradC;

Watching the drivers, that doesn't surprise me at all.

Definitely studies that support EVs do get scrapped earlier. Vandalism is an issue that EV owners are more likely to encounter.

Seems 15-20 years is typical for cars these days. Especially in countries with strict annual testing.

My D3 and BMW 320d are both coming up 18 years old and won’t be getting scrapped anytime soon. Just got to watch out for tailgating Ford Rangers over here.

The Ranger Danger is universal, there must be a chapter about it, in the owners' manuals.

…..they have to drive like they are on ‘ice’…..(and probably are).

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

Did you finally after hundreds of pages think you had found something you could scream "disinformation" at. I don't understand how people deal with the crazy woke.

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Disinformation .... He he cries desperately. I cannot ever be wrong!

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Lets say we do 350k. At 14kwh (which is typically a bit more than we have used but nice round number). That's 49 kwh. If I bought it from the Tesla Super charger at Toowoomba during day time peak that's .54c per kwh. Or $26.46. for 350k.

If I did that same trip in my "big useful defender". Typically it uses 13 l/100. That's about 45.5 L of diesel. Most of the fuel is over $2 a litre. I'd fill up at the BP which is 199.9. So that's $90.54c

There are cheaper fast chargers in Toowoomba (just as fast as Tesla) which I think are as low as .40. There was also some generic fuel (7/11 for 1.80). I typically stick to BP. There are also a number of free chargers in Toowoomba linked to accomodation which might be an option if that's your thing.

EDIT: Quick conversion to CO2. the defender at 45.5 * 2.78kg =126.49 kg of CO2. Multiply that by 2 to include exploration, drilling, extration, transporting, refining, transporting. Let's call it 250kg. The Tesla is 49kwh *.9 kg CO2 which was the grid average a little while back. That gives us 44 kg co2 or a bit less than 1/5 of the defender.
EDIT2: Apparently the average co2/kwh in QLD is actually .73kg CO2. So Tesla would actually be 35kg CO2.

I clearly stated in my original post the place where I was basing my charging and fuel calculations on. I'm unclear what Ballarat prices have to do with my statement.

Originally Posted by BradC

Nah, that's bull****. They are literally the same. Some will fail, and some won't. Unless you are buying unregulated garbage from a third world country the cells and BMS are roughly equivalent.

A few years ago, I met a lovely lady in Perth. She was driving a Honda Hybrid. It was 30+ years old and her battery was still trucking. Good on her, she was on the end of the bathtub curve. I did some research and they didn't have a great reputation on the whole. If you looked at a scatter chart of battery longevity they were pretty much on a linear scale. No different to quality power tools, laptops or pretty much any battery technology.

No real difference with lead acid (just a hundred years or so head start). Starting at the "lithium is the new shiny" the line is bloody steep. As technology and understanding improves the slope on the line becomes flatter. The only difference is a failed lead acid won't work, whereas a failed lithium might burn down your house. The reliability is still going to improve. Hopefully the safety line flattens as the reliability improves.

Apple at least don't state the chemistry of their batteries. Known unknown.

I just looked at my 2 year old iphone. It has 823 cycles on it and reports it's battery at 90% health which is considered normal.

My car probably gets 2-3 cycles a month. These batteries get tickled not snotted like small electronics. Let's go with 3 so that's about 72 cycles in the same time. So that would take me about 23 years to match the iphone. It's an Lithium iron phosphate battery. It's unlikely to be the same chemistry as used in an iphone. The car has battery cooling and conditioning, and is only ever charged at home which would take about 9 hours to charge from dead flat to dead full. so that's described as 9c. An iphone takes a couple of hours to charge?2c?

About the only thing that can be compared is that they are both Lithium batteries. Everything else is very different. I guess it would be like comparing the motor in your 2/ brushcutter to the engine in your car.

It is not just chemistry that it is important. There is also IP that has gone into the Tesla or Panasonic battery cells that have been developed specifically for EVs in how the cells are constructed.

EV battery cells have improved from the Sony/Panasonic 18650 cell with its 500 cycle life as first used in early EVs like the Roadster and Model S. This is a cell designed for laptops and power tools that was initially used by Tesla. The only difference being the addition of liquid cooling which has given these batteries an impressive 12-15 year life.

Where we are seeing a good overlap is the use of cells developed to be suitable for EV applications also being used in non-EV applications.

I believe the latest range of Ryobi High Performance batteries use the 21700 cell which was jointly developed by Tesla and Panasonic for EV use and includes improvements to the cathode, anode, electrolyte, and internal structure all to give better energy density and longer life.

EV battery development has certainly lead to improvements in non-EV lithium batteries, in the areas of capacity, life, and cost. I personally expect to see the 12v LiFePO4 batteries I have last 10-15 years.