Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

Are you feeling ok? Do you need to sit down for a bit. Why do you think all EVs catch fire?. I think you might need a cup of tea. Would you believe prices fluctuate. I'm sure you'll feel a bit better after a little rest.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

where on earth are you paying $2.00 a litre for diesel. Its been around $1.70 here forever. The super charger is 77cent/kw. but will still take you probably an hour for a full charge (rather htan 5 minutes). Just amazing technology


So you are going to drive aroudn for hours desperately searching for cheap or free chargers. Sounds like a fun holiday. Who give a crap about C02, its a trace gas ... absolutely irrelevant in this scenario. So the electric throw-away has ... lost 80% of its value in the last 5 years.... and the defender has likely appreciated quite a lot.

electric throw-aways just sound fabulous....

The prices at the Toowoomba Tesla super charger are sill .54 in peak. The fuel prices are pretty much the same. My calculations stand. Cut with the disinformation.

Did you finally after hundreds of pages think you had found something you could scream "disinformation" at. I don't understand how people deal with the crazy woke.

fuel_price.jpg
fast_chargers.jpg


Disinformation .... He he cries desperately. I cannot ever be wrong!

Mod hat on. The hand of god has been hovering over the big red button, for a few pages.
Unless the personal stuff and politics are not wound back, the button will be pressed.

Just to lighten the mood. In Sunday’s LR Time ( no link because of the hand of god) Christian quips that, because of the wind down of the EV mandate he is busy in his day job because the manufacturers are busy building V8s again. Take that as you will, but I see it as an indication that people make the market, not pollies. And the market has spoken. People don’t want EVs as much as some might think.
Could be wrong. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by DiscoDB

Fortunately the batteries in EVs are not the same. They may use the same raw materials but the manufacturing, assembly, built in cooling/heating, charging controls etc are all totally different.

Nah, that's bull****. They are literally the same. Some will fail, and some won't. Unless you are buying unregulated garbage from a third world country the cells and BMS are roughly equivalent.

A few years ago, I met a lovely lady in Perth. She was driving a Honda Hybrid. It was 30+ years old and her battery was still trucking. Good on her, she was on the end of the bathtub curve. I did some research and they didn't have a great reputation on the whole. If you looked at a scatter chart of battery longevity they were pretty much on a linear scale. No different to quality power tools, laptops or pretty much any battery technology.

No real difference with lead acid (just a hundred years or so head start). Starting at the "lithium is the new shiny" the line is bloody steep. As technology and understanding improves the slope on the line becomes flatter. The only difference is a failed lead acid won't work, whereas a failed lithium might burn down your house. The reliability is still going to improve. Hopefully the safety line flattens as the reliability improves.

Originally Posted by BradC

Nah, that's bull****. They are literally the same. Some will fail, and some won't. Unless you are buying unregulated garbage from a third world country the cells and BMS are roughly equivalent.

A few years ago, I met a lovely lady in Perth. She was driving a Honda Hybrid. It was 30+ years old and her battery was still trucking. Good on her, she was on the end of the bathtub curve. I did some research and they didn't have a great reputation on the whole. If you looked at a scatter chart of battery longevity they were pretty much on a linear scale. No different to quality power tools, laptops or pretty much any battery technology.

No real difference with lead acid (just a hundred years or so head start). Starting at the "lithium is the new shiny" the line is bloody steep. As technology and understanding improves the slope on the line becomes flatter. The only difference is a failed lead acid won't work, whereas a failed lithium might burn down your house. The reliability is still going to improve. Hopefully the safety line flattens as the reliability improves.

Those hondas had nickel hydride battery didn't they? I'm pretty sure most really early hybrids did. They are quite a safe long lasting chemistry compared to lithium/cabolt.

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

Those hondas had nickel hydride battery didn't they? I'm pretty sure most really early hybrids did. They are quite a safe long lasting chemistry compared to lithium/cabolt.

If I'm honest, I don't know. I do know that nickel xxx(whatever) chemistry doesn't have the longevity problems of lithium chemistry. Like all, it has a cycle life but lithium also has the complication of time which has a complicated acceleration with charge state. At least like lead-acid, nickel hydride won't burn your house down.

Heck, until recently I had some Nickel Cadmium Sub-C cells drill batteries here that were still ok, and they were some 40+ years old (Sanyo Cadnica cells). They were down to about half capacity, so I replaced them with brand new NiCd cells. I doubt I'll see 40 years from my Ryobi One+ batteries, but I do have one that is 15 now. It's down to about 50% capacity (I measure them every couple of years).

Originally Posted by BradC

Nah, that's bull****. They are literally the same. Some will fail, and some won't. Unless you are buying unregulated garbage from a third world country the cells and BMS are roughly equivalent.

I understand why you say they are the same, and yes the basic chemistry, raw materials, and basic BMS principles are the same. Even early EV batteries were very simple things and more like an upscaled phone battery.

But there are big differences now in how modern EV batteries are made to make them able to handle more full charge cycles and achieve a longer life than a mobile phone or tool battery.

The new battery chemistries being used are much more robust, with a lot of focus on optimising the physical and chemical properties within each cell. Even the additives that go into the electrolyte are all optimised. All with a focus on achieving longer life, higher energy density, improved cycling stability, and higher discharge rates.

The biggest difference then at the module level is the built in cooling and heating systems, coupled with a much more complex BMS system. Better thermal management all contributes to longer life. Liquid cooling alone can halve the rate of degradation when compared to air cooling.

Early air cooled batteries like that made for the Leaf had a much shorter life span of only 5-8 years or around 500-1000 cycles - much like a mobile phone battery. But with the significant improvements being made in thermal management, and battery construction, you can expect over 2000-3000 full discharge cycles.

You can call it bull**** if you want, but the two largest EV car manufacturers have been around for over 16 years now, and the top 4 battery manufacturers for over 13 years, and the failure rate data supports that life spans of 15-20 years can be expected for most EVs.

I expect most EVs will be written off or sold for scrap before the battery reaches end of life. Same as we see with most ICE vehicles which on average get scrapped around 15-20 years.