Defenders on "Car Sales."

[cafe latte]

I think you're right to some extent Stean. 300 Tdi Defenders will continue to increase in value here as wel as USA. But I also think puma Defenders will too. They will be 'old' in 15 years time; by then they will also look very simple electronically in comparison with anything new in 2030. They already are in comparison to most new vehicles.

You are not wrong!! One reason we got the Mahindra as a second car is just about everything else are like space ships inside.
Chris

[Andrew86]

Yeah sure Didge, but then I'd think, what can I buy for $100K? Landcruiser? ...pfffft gas guzzling whale. Disco? Nah, toorak tractor. Range Rover? Not even half way there and too much fake walnut. Hmm ...GWagen? Still not enough coin. And none of them would make me smile like a Defender.

Exactly right, Mr L. I don't see the rising prices as profiteering or gouging, I see it as an adjustment. There was an artificial ceiling on prices prior to "the end" that meant all used Defenders were priced relative to the RRP of a new one.

Now that ceiling has been removed, prices are influenced by substitutes and alternatives - most of which cost significantly more and don't come close to feeling as special. That's not rose coloured glasses, that's just a fact.

I didn't buy my Defender as an investment, but I still can't help but feel that we all got a bargain buying these things when we did.

[Tombie]

And coming soon - lots of MY15/16 models being sold as the original purchasers who got one to be "trendy" realise they're actually a work vehicle and offload them.

Market take up in the last 12-24 months was people thinking it would be Urban cool to have a Defender.. You know, those Beard Wielding, Tight clothing, Deconstructed Coffee drinkers [emoji48]

The artificial prices being asked at the moment won't last - look at the limited editions of the past - TR and SVX..

Enjoy them for what they are.

[kogvos]

I couldn't sell mine for a $100K. well, maybe if I washed it. :p
It's raining today. Chuck it outside and you could get lucky.

[cuppabillytea]

It's raining today. Chuck it outside and you could get lucky.
It is indeed raining today. The yard where we keep our boats at work is unsealed. Luckily the weather has sent my ships to the night shift. :p My car is always outside but it usually doesn't rain until I wash it. Guess what I did on Monday. :confused:
The muddy yard is waiting for me to arrive at 0500 tomorrow. :(

[cuppabillytea]

And coming soon - lots of MY15/16 models being sold as the original purchasers who got one to be "trendy" realise they're actually a work vehicle and offload them.

Market take up in the last 12-24 months was people thinking it would be Urban cool to have a Defender.. You know, those Beard Wielding, Tight clothing, Deconstructed Coffee drinkers [emoji48]

The artificial prices being asked at the moment won't last - look at the limited editions of the past - TR and SVX..

Enjoy them for what they are.

Nail on the head again.

[steane]

My 110 300tdi along with my 300tdi 90

109867

Nice :D Your 110 is almost the spitting image of mine, except I've got the two door Hardtop.

But how about these Defenders on Carsales eh? (just keeping it on topic...)

[Reads90]

Nice :D Your 110 is almost the spitting image of mine, except I've got the two door Hardtop.



But how about these Defenders on Carsales eh? (just keeping it on topic...)



Sorry I was trying to point out that even though I actually missed buying a brand new one.
One of the last in Aus was in Brisbane and someone beat me to the dealership by 30mins and put a deposit on it. That was nice tint and leather and brand new and was $60,000 on the road
I have been looking at ones on line and they are just stupid money for a second hand one. Plenty of 90's about but not much 110's and they are asking a fair bit.

I have since decided that I am going to not get one and keep my 110 as it is easier to maintain and live with. Also have all the toys on it so would have to start again.

Another thing that made my mind up was after a very wet drive back through Fraser where we had a lot of water and hard driving due to weather. The two Hi Lux Toyotas with me had electric problems with both their cars and my 300tdi had no problem.

But I do wonder how many are selling at there stupid prices and long they will continue for.

[steane]

Sorry I was trying to point out that even though I actually missed buying a brand new one.
One of the last in Aus was in Brisbane and someone beat me to the dealership by 30mins and put a deposit on it. That was nice tint and leather and brand new and was $60,000 on the road
I have been looking at ones on line and they are just stupid money for a second hand one. Plenty of 90's about but not much 110's and they are asking a fair bit.

I have since decided that I am going to not get one and keep my 110 as it is easier to maintain and live with. Also have all the toys on it so would have to start again.

Another thing that made my mind up was after a very wet drive back through Fraser where we had a lot of water and hard driving due to weather. The two Hi Lux Toyotas with me had electric problems with both their cars and my 300tdi had no problem.

But I do wonder how many are selling at there stupid prices and long they will continue for.

No need to be sorry Reads, I was just being a smart A, my keep it on topic comment was in jest and in reference to the thread being pulled back on topic a little earlier, not aimed at you at all.;)

I think you'll be glad you kept the tdi. Good ones are thin on the ground. Last good one I helped a mate buy went for close to $20k around a year ago. 90 percent of what you see on carsales is rubbish unfortunately.

I saw a 300Tdi with an asking price of $45k recently. Had a fancy camper setup, but that's silly pricing, just like the Puma pricing. But $45k Tdis will happen, just not yet.

For me the Puma is a hybrid caught between the classic simplicity of the earlier Defenders and the complexity of modern 4x4s. A space it sits in a bit awkwardly and a package that could have been better if Ford wasn't busy going broke at the time. I'd still like one though and could even buy one in the coming years, but not at the current mystical pricing levels, I'd prefer a D4.

But as I've said before, love the one your with;) What happens with prices is irrelevant unless you plan to sell, and i could never bring myself to do that.

[cafe latte]

It's raining today. Chuck it outside and you could get lucky.

With a Defender you get two for one, when you leave it out in the rain you wash the inside too :D
Chris

[Daz7]

At least one guy actually wants to sell his Defender 90 - reduced price from $36k to $25k.

It'll sell now.

2010 Land Rover Defender Manual 4x4 MY11 (http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/SSE-AD-4058396?WT.seg_4=PriceAlert&wt.z_driver=Email_PriceAlert)

[scarry]

At least one guy actually wants to sell his Defender 90 - reduced price from $36k to $25k.

It'll sell now.

2010 Land Rover Defender Manual 4x4 MY11 (http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/SSE-AD-4058396?WT.seg_4=PriceAlert&wt.z_driver=Email_PriceAlert)

If that was in Brisbane,i would be having a look…….even though it looks a bit rough,panel damage,etc.

I bet it will be gone tomorrow

[YOLO110]

That surely will be gone in a flash!

To me, $25k is an absolute Bargain... even at the pre- inflated prices of todays market!

[MrLandy]

It's worth at least $35K. Nothing to do with the seller getting real on price, poor guy has to move overseas in a hurry.

[Daz7]

It's worth at least $35K. Nothing to do with the seller getting real on price, poor guy has to move overseas in a hurry.

Well... if it was worth $35k and he had it for sale at $36k, one would think it would have sold instead of sitting around for weeks and weeks on end. FWIW this is now back at redbook values for a private sale, be interesting to see how long it takes to move.

Just how thick are these rose coloured glasses you have on Mr Landy lol.

[MrLandy]

:D they might have a slight rose tint, but they are telescopic and have X-ray vision.

[ozscott]

I think its important that the shorty for sale comes with a set of jumper leads. Nice option.

I thought shorties normally attracted a bit of a premium. $25k seems about right to me. He will sell it now. I think the hipsters were all after the limited editions so any 'normal' deefer isnt going to sell second hand for silly prices. This 90 is a good example of the market re-establishing itself.

Cheers

[YOLO110]

Before all this 'gold rush' started, I looked at several 90's, with reasonable km's and about 2-4 years old that were being advertised for $34k - $39k. Having spoken to the sellers, they were all 'willing' to sell them for $32-34k. Looked at a few 110's as well, they were up at circa $40-44k but sellers agreeing to sell for high $30k's.

This 90 seems very well priced... I would expect asking $30k would also get a quick sale for it but as pointed out, the guy says he needs to sell now...

I wonder how long the current prices will stay for...I reckon by year end we will be 1/2 way back to the pre gold rush days... :cool:

[Greg4427]

To be honest I think this could well be just the start. If Landrover come up with what would be considered as a poor follow on design for the Defender then prices will know no bounds!

[Greg4427]

I also note that one of the two Heritage's that were for sale for between $81-93K has been sold, although at what final price is unknown.

[connormotorsport]

Met a rep yesterday who was delivering a 4,000klm old 2015 model 110. He had just sold it for 76k so I'd say people are paying the prices.

[Geary]

When will they break the 6 figure mark.

Another new Heritage comes out off hiding and is on carsales today @ $94k.

Makes the one for $81k look cheap.

You wonder how peoples mindset works, I mean if an identical vehicle isn't selling at $81k, why would yours sell at $94k?

The orange 130 has been for sale for months for around $24k and went up to 25k ands now $29k! I can't help but wonder what the thinking is.

[Andrew86]

And coming soon - lots of MY15/16 models being sold as the original purchasers who got one to be "trendy" realise they're actually a work vehicle and offload them.

I don't think anyone who bought a Defender thought it was something it's not. They don't hide their flaws or sugar coat all the shortcomings, they smash you in the face with all of their character the second you open the door and turn the key. What you see is what you get, love it or hate it, take it or leave it.

I don't think there's any reason to blame hipsters for rising prices either. They're far too busy with their fixed-gear bikes and kale chips to notice a bunch of grumpy old blokes and their 'Jeeps'. In fact, most of the orders my dealer took for the last few shipments were from repeat customers buying their second, third or even fourth Defenders. We only have ourselves to blame for this madness :D

[Col 110]

I don't think anyone who bought a Defender thought it was something it's not. They don't hide their flaws or sugar coat all the shortcomings, they smash you in the face with all of their character the second you open the door and turn the key. What you see is what you get, love it or hate it, take it or leave it.

[SNIP}

:D

Totally agree - I bought mine brand new "off the lot" - once you drive it you get it (one way or the other)!

Here is my post on my purchase just last year --> http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/225224-110-test-drive-complete-made-purchase.html

Cheers,
Col.

[MrLandy]

Yup. And it's funny how those who hate it think it shouldn't exist.

But that's all over now, unless perhaps if you're buying a Defender second hand for the first time. No more country dealers with expertise in the quirks of a Defender, because whatever comes next won't have any of those quirks or much of that Defender character. JLR would need to find a wizard designer to build that into a new model Defender, which instead will no doubt be a more car-like, bland driving experience. That's why Defender prices will remain high. Some love it.

[Pickles2]

Some of these sellers must be DREAMING?
A Heritage 90 for $94K, and an ordinary 90 for $80k,...can't see it.
Pickles.

[Daz7]

Some of these sellers must be DREAMING?
A Heritage 90 for $94K, and an ordinary 90 for $80k,...can't see it.
Pickles.

Noticed a few get reduced over the weekend.

A My16 D90 with leather etc (2,500km) has been reduced from $66k to 59k, lets see how long that lasts now.

[scarry]

Noticed a few get reduced over the weekend.

A My16 D90 with leather etc (2,500km) has been reduced from $66k to 59k, lets see how long that lasts now.

Until the price drops to $49k ? :angel:

[MrLandy]

Those who reduce their prices, it's a fair indication that they actually want to sell. Patience will work as a buyer, but you might also miss out. If I was in the market for a low km 90 with leather etc, I'd expect to pay around $55K or so. A 110 same specs $65K, 130 $68-70K.

[Daz7]

Until the price drops to $49k ? :angel:

:D No, that seems to be the sweet spot to advertise a MY16 low km, well specced D90. I was pondering how long it will take to sell now its at that price.

[Greg4427]

I have a 2014 D90 that I bought second hand and would love to have the money to buy one of the current crop of 110's advertised!

[DiscoMick]

I have a 2014 D90 that I bought second hand and would love to have the money to buy one of the current crop of 110's advertised!
Sorry, but you can't have mine.

[MrLandy]

I have a 2014 D90 that I bought second hand and would love to have the money to buy one of the current crop of 110's advertised!

Yeah sorry you can't have mine either. But can I have your 90? :p

[Greg4427]

Sorry gents, I love my Daisy and wouldn't part with her lol. But I still have an itch for a 110...:wasntme:

[MrLandy]

Why would anyone in their right mind sell their Defender now? They are irreplaceable. That's it. It's over.

The prices will drop a little until all those who really want to sell do...then I reckon they will just keep going up. It's very rare that production of such a design icon in any sphere of life comes to an end. I think people are vastly underestimating how high prices will go.

[Disco Muppet]

If NAS markets are anything to go by, you may be right!
We are lucky in that we have considerably more available to us than our North American brothers and sisters so that may play a part.
Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[JDNSW]

If NAS markets are anything to go by, you may be right!
We are lucky in that we have considerably more available to us than our North American brothers and sisters so that may play a part.


Yes, but probably just as much more demand. But they can be freely imported from the UK, unlike in the US, so this would impose a lid on price (a lot more of them there).

John

[Daz7]

Noticed a few get reduced over the weekend.

A My16 D90 with leather etc (2,500km) has been reduced from $66k to 59k, lets see how long that lasts now.

Spoke too soon, it just went back up to $62500. Very strange :D

[Greg4427]

I agree with MrLandy, we ain't seen nuthin yet!

[Is Vic There]

Spoke too soon, it just went back up to $62500. Very strange :D

If you change the price carsales then puts the advert high up the chain, I use to move mine up and then down by $5 ;)

[Pickles2]

Spoke too soon, it just went back up to $62500. Very strange :D
Can you keep following it?..and advise,.....It would be interesting to see, just as an example, if any of these vehicles are actually selling?!
Pickles.

[Jeff Gordon]

Had a look at CarSales and since I bought my black & silver MY15 90 last November, the prices have gone up by at least 20% WOW. Not such a +++ movement in older models though.

Price for a Heritage 90 which is what I was looking for, now $82K and $94K someone is cashing in!

[DiscoMick]

I haven't told the wife that Defenders similar to ours are now selling on 'car sales' for almost twice what we paid for it, in case she decides we should sell it and use the profit to renovate the bathroom. Priorities!

[ozscott]

If people are paying asking prices they are nuts. It's like real estate. How many times do we see homes advertised for 10-30% more than they ultimately sell for (thanks onthehouse Web site!!).

Cheers

[MrLandy]

Many houses are advertised for far less than they sell for too.

Most people seem to prioritise competitive growth capitalism as the best system, but then complain when prices go up. ...We've seen what happens when prices go down!

Proportionately a Defender even at $100K could be seen as good value compared to a Range Rover at $250K! ...leaves you $150K to renovate! It's all in the framing, the spin and the debt management. Most of us can't afford such luxury though, so we have to draw the line somewhere.

But the majority have chosen this system that means when something is desirable, good quality and rare, the price goes up. It will most likely get voted in again as the best system in a months time too.

[Pickles2]

If people are paying asking prices they are nuts. It's like real estate. How many times do we see homes advertised for 10-30% more than they ultimately sell for (thanks onthehouse Web site!!).

Cheers
jeez, Definitely not in Melbourne!!
House prices here are ridiculous, and R.E. Agents are regularly criticized for advertising houses with too low an estimated price....houses are going to auction here & selling for WAY above the "estimated" price,.....it's crazy,, i'm glad I'm not a 1st home buyer!
Pickles.

[ozscott]

Fair dink. Sounds crazy. Up here they are habitually advertised high and sell lower. Cheers

[Pickles2]

Fair dink. Sounds crazy. Up here they are habitually advertised high and sell lower. Cheers
Yep, it is "Crazy"!!... that's the way it is in Melbourne, I lived in Toowoomba for 3 years, a LLLOOONNNGGG time ago!
Regards, Pickles.

[MrLandy]

It's not just first home buyers. There's no way I could afford to buy a house in Melbourne. ...Glad I'm not a first a Defender buyer though!!

[fourteen8]

So what would be the reasonable price for 2010 165000km defender. Body looks straight and pretty much standard only bullbar?

[Greg4427]

Last weekend saw a brand new 110 silver and a 90 a Land Rover Dealer in Geelong that at the time weren't listed on car sales. Since then they advertised them both and another 7 seater 110. I called yesterday to buy the 110 but I was a day late, and the 7 seater had sold the hour before I called, not that I was considering it! The 110 was $70K and I can't remember what price the 7 seater was. The 90 is still there waiting for its forever home at $63K.

[DiscoMick]

Considering their new list price was around $50k depending on options that's a margin of up to $20k. How long that will last is hard to say. If the new Defender turns out to be a dud or substantially different then the demand for good used 'real' Defenders might stay high for some time.

[MrLandy]

Considering their new list price was around $50k depending on options that's a margin of up to $20k. How long that will last is hard to say. If the new Defender turns out to be a dud or substantially different then the demand for good used 'real' Defenders might stay high for some time.

Yes exactly Mick ...and even more so if there is no new Defender, which is looking more and more likely IMO.

[ProjectDirector]

Yes exactly Mick ...and even more so if there is no new Defender, which is looking more and more likely IMO.



I may agree with you on that, no more defender.
For them to sell 100k+ units pa they have to compete against the dual cab market which has already saturated the market so I don't see that happening. The other market will be the wrangler which I don't think they sell a lot.
So considering financial viability I don't see anymore defenders.
My 2c

[Pickles2]

I would like to believe you guys that there will not be another Defender,...but I don't, I say, there wll DEFINITELY be one, but I, like everyone else, have NO idea about what it will "BE". So remember, you heard it here first,...there WILL be another Defender.....2018 seems to be the most "popular" prediction at the moment, although I reckon we'll have a few clues about it before then.
Vehicles on carsales continue to list at ridiculous pricing,...but there are the reasonable ones,..a Puma 2.2 90 with very low Ks @ $39,500, the best one I've seen.
I love my cars, always have,...can't remember ANY other "ended production" vehicle where prices have shown increases similar to Defender.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

When I purchased my 2014 Defender the sales guys at the dealership had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. They were only interested in how 'cool' Defenders were and had clearly never driven, let alone owned one. Every Land Rover dealer I've ever been to has been the same.

There is simply no interest by JLR in the type of vehicle that Defender is. The staff aren't even trained in how to use a 4X4 vehicle. The assumption is that you live in the city and you'll just cruise the streets. The service departments are incredulous when you want diff oils checked at every service for goodness sake! Seriously?

...Are Land Rover really going to build a new, pragmatic, heavy duty, work horse? I don't think so. The glitz and glamour of the show rooms, the yuppy staff, pulling dealers and service agents out of country areas, the whole elitist luxury approach by Land Rover has screamed 'end of Defender' for years.

[Pickles2]

Mr Landy,...That has not been our experience. I'll tell you what ours was.
When Wifey decided that she was interested in a Defender around April/May 2013, We'd never had anything to do with a Landrover before. We had to pick a Dealer, so we picked ULR, the oldest LR Dealer in Vic, and at the time still had its original founder as owner & Dealer principal,...we knew they'd been doing Landrovers for ever, so we went there.
When we entered the showroom, we were a little "overwhelmed" with all the Jaguars, RangeRovers etc on the floor & were a bit embarrassed about enquiring about a "lowly" Defender.
We didn't know anyone there, so were simply introduced to a saleslady, who, when we mentioned we were interested in a Defender, immediately smiled, and said, "Oh good, we love our Defenders",...which made us a bit more relaxed!!.. So, all options decided upon, & car ordered.
Then, 6 months later, when car arrived, we were introduced to the workshop manager who discussed with us the fitting of the Dealer fitted options, invited us in on a couple of occasions with a couple of ideas He had, & took pictures for my "records" of every step. AWESOME.
Problem is, ULR are very very busy, and I now sometimes can't get hold of the person I want, but I'd have to say that the Defender buying experience was exemplary. The sales manager is an enthusiast too, having bought one of the very last 90s for himself.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

That's great to hear Pickles. Although I understand that ULR have just been sold to new owners. Hopefully this doesn't mean the care factor changes.

I recently took my Defender to ULR for a warranty service, because I'd had bad service from another dealer (where I purchased the vehicle). They were much better, but I had to return after the service because they hadn't completed properly. To their credit they they remedied this immediately and were apologetic. I will go back there for service under warranty if I'm in Melbourne at the time.

Some individual dealers may be great and given your experience I wish I'd purchased mine from ULR. But it's the overall culture of Land Rover that says 'end of Defender' to me. I think they're totally caught up in the luxury 'image of adventure' as a company, rather than the reality of what the end users (their customers) of 4X4 vehicles need. No doubt it's totally frustrating for the dealers who care about Defenders too, but sitting in the showroom at ULR, waiting for the service to be completed was an intimidating experience, no one in the showroom at the the time was remotely interested in Defenders and with nothing else available under $100K and most over $200K! and the magazines on the table were mostly for super yachts!

Defender is finished and prices will continue to rise for good examples. Unfortunately, I think they too will be beyond the reach of financial mere mortals like us. Icons are rare in the world and Defender is now a rare icon. I doubt that whatever comes next will be iconic, especially if as everyone keeps saying it must appeal to the mass market. Mass market = bland.

[ozscott]

Mr LR I purchased from a dealer on the edge of a city and near the country. Lot's of Deefers sold and serviced. The sales guys drove Defender Extremes but preferred Disco 2 as their daily drives. Dealer P had the full fat RR of course. They often went out west or to the islands with a combination of vehicles. At the time the Defender was the same price as the D2 and I was tempted but they all told me the D2 stock form was so close to the deefer off road that it wasn't funny and better on the beach in V8 form but was much nicer on road... Plus I liked the D2 over the 110 in looks and feel to drive etc. They were spot on I came to realise. So not all dealers don't know Defender. Cheers

[Disco Muppet]

Local dealer has had SVRs, Autobiographies, Jags, etc go through. LR salesman is happy to talk to anyone, even a 22yo who clearly can't afford any of them :D
He said he finds the new stuff better offroad but enjoys driving the Defenders when he can hold on to them.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[cuppabillytea]

Local dealer has had SVRs, Autobiographies, Jags, etc go through. LR salesman is happy to talk to anyone, even a 22yo who clearly can't afford any of them :D
He said he finds the new stuff better offroad but enjoys driving the Defenders when he can hold on to them.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

What else could he say to a Green Frog in a Disco? :p:wasntme:

[Pickles2]

That's great to hear Pickles. Although I understand that ULR have just been sold to new owners. Hopefully this doesn't mean the care factor changes.

I recently took my Defender to ULR for a warranty service, because I'd had bad service from another dealer (where I purchased the vehicle). They were much better, but I had to return after the service because they hadn't completed properly. To their credit they they remedied this immediately and were apologetic. I will go back there for service under warranty if I'm in Melbourne at the time.

Some individual dealers may be great and given your experience I wish I'd purchased mine from ULR. But it's the overall culture of Land Rover that says 'end of Defender' to me. I think they're totally caught up in the luxury 'image of adventure' as a company, rather than the reality of what the end users (their customers) of 4X4 vehicles need. No doubt it's totally frustrating for the dealers who care about Defenders too, but sitting in the showroom at ULR, waiting for the service to be completed was an intimidating experience, no one in the showroom at the the time was remotely interested in Defenders and with nothing else available under $100K and most over $200K! and the magazines on the table were mostly for super yachts!

Defender is finished and prices will continue to rise for good examples. Unfortunately, I think they too will be beyond the reach of financial mere mortals like us. Icons are rare in the world and Defender is now a rare icon. I doubt that whatever comes next will be iconic, especially if as everyone keeps saying it must appeal to the mass market. Mass market = bland.
ULR,.."New Ownership"?....spot on,...MCL too. I hope it won't affect customer service!
What do you mean by "Defender Is Finished"....Are you saying that there will never be another vehicle from JLR called "Defender"?
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

ULR,.."New Ownership"?....spot on,...MCL too. I hope it won't affect customer service!
What do you mean by "Defender Is Finished"....Are you saying that there will never be another vehicle from JLR called "Defender"?
Pickles.

Yes I'm not convinced there will ever be another Defender. It's no longer Land Rovers market. ...Or if something new is called Defender it won't be worthy because it will be a nostalgic urban play truck; a pale imitation, either in the style of Jeep Wrangler, or a mid duty dual cab ute based sheep. I also very much doubt that the Defence force will be interested, so it would make a mockery.

As always, I hope I'm wrong, but the evidence doesn't add up IMO. 2018 isn't even confirmed. But I reckon all this does add up to continuing high prices for second hand Defenders.

[ozscott]

I'm hopeful that LR will see that there is always room for simple (relatively speaking... They can never be truly simple with modern safety requirements etc) trucks with dashes with big buttons and knobs that don't pop out of things but rather stay put. There is a place for things where the only servo motors are in the blend motors and maybe in the under bonnet area. Don't underestimate LR. They are the masters of ingenuity and they can turn that skill to something more than a card board cut out with the load capacity of a few surfboards like a Wrangler.

Cheers

[Pickles2]

Yes I'm not convinced there will ever be another Defender. It's no longer Land Rovers market. ...Or if something new is called Defender it won't be worthy because it will be a nostalgic urban play truck; a pale imitation, either in the style of Jeep Wrangler, or a mid duty dual cab ute based sheep. I also very much doubt that the Defence force will be interested, so it would make a mockery.

As always, I hope I'm wrong, but the evidence doesn't add up IMO. 2018 isn't even confirmed. But I reckon all this does add up to continuing high prices for second hand Defenders.
The question I asked was, "Do you think there will be another Defender"?
You have given me the impression that you say that there will NOT be,...another Defender.
So, to be clear,....Is that what you're saying, and I quote, (your words), "There will NOT be another defender"?
A "yes" or "No" will suffice.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

The heritage edition marked the end of production of the Land Rover Defender. The fanfare, the celebrities, the big sand drawing. Defender is finished.

...So, no Pickles. As I've said many times, there will not be another Defender IMO.

Which, in the context of this thread, is why Defender prices are rising so much.

[scarry]

The heritage edition marked the end of production of the Land Rover Defender. The fanfare, the celebrities, the big sand drawing. Defender is finished.

...So, no Pickles. As I've said many times, there will not be another Defender IMO.

Which, in the context of this thread, is why Defender prices are rising so much.

There is definitely a completely new vehicle coming from JLR,whether it is even called a Defender,who knows,but it will be a replacement for the Defender.

And whether it looks or is the same class as the old Defender,who knows.

All speculation,we will all have to be patient and wait.;)

[DiscoMick]

In the latest LROI John Pearson said he was told by a JLR insider recently that the new Defender would be delayed until 2020 after the directors rejected the proposal as being too much like a Range Rover and told the designers to come up with something more like a Defender. Interesting...
I'd rather they delayed to get it right than hurried and botched it.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[ProjectDirector]

Like I said before, they won't be a defender but with a chance that there will be one, it will have to appeal to the masses. What is appealing now is technology gadgets, seat warmers, iPhone connectivity etc etc. Cant see the icon being reborn. These are the requirements these days and it is very obvious, the new generation or at least 95% of it is only interested in technology and luxury, not even sure if they can drive a car without all the safety features either[emoji3]
If you have a defender you may as well hold on to it because if there is a new gen there will be no comparison.

[Babs]

Has anyone ever noticed that the D3 D4 look like they were derived from Defender?

Seriously if they just modified the front yo look like a Defender ever so slightly, then there it is, the replacement.

Have to agree with the comments read so far and that is the new Defender (if it actually happens) will not resemble this iconic model at all.

I don't believe they will make one, if (IF) they do, it will be a more basic budget 5 seat option, kind of like the Jeep in the Chrysler range. MO.

I will in the not so distant future be looking for a Defender 300tdi or Preferably TD5 as my family sadly said goodbye to our Deefer today.

It was mixed emotions, a lot of regret but price soothed out the emotions, some of you may have recognised mine on carsales and it certainly was priced right.
Congratulations to the new owner, a true gentleman, we should see an introduction from him soon.

So if you have them hang onto them, I had my reasons for selling and money wasn't the motivation but that's another thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Pickles2]

The heritage edition marked the end of production of the Land Rover Defender. The fanfare, the celebrities, the big sand drawing. Defender is finished.

...So, no Pickles. As I've said many times, there will not be another Defender IMO.

Which, in the context of this thread, is why Defender prices are rising so much.
No worries.
I wish that you were right, because I don't want another vehicle named "Defender" either,...I think that the models we have "stand for something", and I think that any "New" Defender will be different, a bit removed from what we now have.
So, I think that there should be a new name for for the "new" vehicle, to distinguish it from the old generation Defender.
However, I believe, and remember I don't want it either, that there will be a "New" Defender,...and I reckon We'll know about it in 2018.
Who will be right,...You, or me?,....As they say, "Time Will Tell"!
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

In the latest LROI John Pearson said he was told by a JLR insider recently that the new Defender would be delayed until 2020 after the directors rejected the proposal as being too much like a Range Rover and told the designers to come up with something more like a Defender. Interesting...
I'd rather they delayed to get it right than hurried and botched it.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

See what I mean, the designers have no idea. They will be proposing all sorts of lame / fancy ideas, when they simply should be focussing on rebuilding /modernising the Defender in exactly the same proportions with a few minor interior tweaks to accomodate bigger bodies. The exterior dimensions should remain exactly the same. ...then we may see pre 2016 Defender prices come down. But they won't because they don't have any designers who understand the beauty of simplicity, or what a basic work vehicle needs to be. The culture at Land Rover now is for gizmos not grit.

[MrLandy]

No worries.
I wish that you were right, because I don't want another vehicle named "Defender" either,...I think that the models we have "stand for something", and I think that any "New" Defender will be different, a bit removed from what we now have.
So, I think that there should be a new name for for the "new" vehicle, to distinguish it from the old generation Defender.
However, I believe, and remember I don't want it either, that there will be a "New" Defender,...and I reckon We'll know about it in 2018.
Who will be right,...You, or me?,....As they say, "Time Will Tell"!
Pickles.

Cheers Pickles, I reckon time is already telling. It has been for years now. All the focus has been on luxury models. ...2020 at the earliest, but that design will most likely be rejected too. Long live Defender, get one while you still can!

[MrLandy]

PS: there are still plenty of Defenders on carsales with low kms, heaps of extras for reasonable prices IMO. Some are crazy high, but most simply reflect the reality that demand will grow as there is no more supply. Interestingly prices are now comparable with Toyota Troopy prices, which is probably closer to what they should always have been.

[Tombie]

Good grief.

[cuppabillytea]

Good grief.

X2. :eek:

[frantic]

Just wondering how can-am can get away calling their Atv a defender?

Also babs, sorry to see you go, good luck in finding a suitable defender to do a heart transplant to ;)

[Didge]

See what I mean, the designers have no idea. ...... in exactly the same proportions with a few minor interior tweaks to accomodate bigger bodies. The exterior dimensions should remain exactly the same. ........
Well, MrLandy, I don't know about exactly the same proportions. Firstly, I'd like to see the B pillars further back, a higher windscreen, no water leaks whatsoever, some sound insulation, better handbrake and window winder placements, quieter, internal padded roll cage or body that will retain it's shape in the event of a rollover, internal airbags, better rear seat positions, the wings should open with the bonnet so we can access that wasted area, etc, etc. There are heaps of improvements that could be made for little or no extra cost. Merc and Toyota are able to produce cars of a similar shape that have addressed all the above yet JLR state we can't have airbags due to the current shape - why?

[Babs]

Just wondering how can-am can get away calling their Atv a defender? Also babs, sorry to see you go, good luck in finding a suitable defender to do a heart transplant to ;)

Cheers Frantic,

I definitely want to do that transplant, though no rush.

Also I won't be leaving the forum, it looks like I have a new SDV6 D4 lined up, so I'll still be hanging around.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Tombie]

Well, MrLandy, I don't know about exactly the same proportions. Firstly, I'd like to see the B pillars further back, a higher windscreen, no water leaks whatsoever, some sound insulation, better handbrake and window winder placements, quieter, internal padded roll cage or body that will retain it's shape in the event of a rollover, internal airbags, better rear seat positions, the wings should open with the bonnet so we can access that wasted area, etc, etc. There are heaps of improvements that could be made for little or no extra cost. Merc and Toyota are able to produce cars of a similar shape that have addressed all the above yet JLR state we can't have airbags due to the current shape - why?



Steering wheel position along with firewall construction and positioning are the key reasons we can't SRS a Defender.

To re-tool all of that up is a very expensive task.

As is the job of tooling up to move everything around/back etc. a big expense.

Then it would leave you with a smaller cargo area as the C pillar and seats would have to go back, the pillars would need to be tripled in size to have strength, the body would need widening as the tunnel prevents moving the hand brake effectively (if the cubby was smaller and it was there people would complain about the small cubby). And the rear cargo area would shrink as the cabin pushed back. This would then need the wheelbase increased to allow for wheel arch to go further back and the entire chassis would need to be stretched in the middle about 4-6 inches.

Toyota was lucky - their steering column is in the correct placement and had sufficient room to adjust for SRS bags to be fitted. They required very few changes to achieve and had volume sales to back it up.

[Andrew86]

it will have to appeal to the masses. What is appealing now is technology gadgets, seat warmers, iPhone connectivity etc etc. Cant see the icon being reborn.

Why does a Defender have to be devoid of modern technology for it to remain iconic? Sure, there are a lot of gimmicks around today but there are also a lot of genuinely useful technologies that people should absolutely be able to expect in a $60k car. The inclusions of those innovations doesn't have to come at the expense of its historical credentials.

Lane departure warnings, blind spot monitoring, radar cruise control, collision avoidance, queue assist, reversing cameras, terrain response, tyre pressure sensors, hill descent assistance, full mobile phone connectivity - all things I scoffed at until I experienced them. What made these things great wasn't that they were technologically advanced, it was that they were simple, unobtrusive and totally complementary to the driving experience. You barely knew they were there, until they became incredibly useful in some way.

I recently drove a Volvo XC60 for a period of time as a rental and it came standard with a lot of the features above, I thoroughly enjoyed it (I never thought I'd say that about a Volvo). I'd gladly accept any or all of these things in the Defender replacement. Heck, I'd settle for regular old cruise control. It should also have lots of airbags, because that's just a bloody good idea :)

I love my Defender and I don't think I'll ever part with it, but times have changed for the better and the new car should absolutely embrace that. That isn't a betrayal, it's progress which is key to the Defender's future success.

[Tombie]

Like I said before, they won't be a defender but with a chance that there will be one, it will have to appeal to the masses. What is appealing now is technology gadgets, seat warmers, iPhone connectivity etc etc. Cant see the icon being reborn. These are the requirements these days and it is very obvious, the new generation or at least 95% of it is only interested in technology and luxury, not even sure if they can drive a car without all the safety features either[emoji3]
If you have a defender you may as well hold on to it because if there is a new gen there will be no comparison.



Interesting! So a vehicle with all the stuff you mention wouldn't be a Defender....

Emmas factory delivered Defender has:
- Seat Warmers
- Heated front glass
- BT phone connectivity
- Power windows
- Central locking
- Power Steering
- DSC
- ABS
- Traction Control
- Fade out interior lighting

We added Cruise Control. [emoji48]

[1nando]

I don't understand why people that own defenders are complaining about luxuries. If you wanted luxury why didn't you buy a discovery/200 series etc?
I bought my defender becuase it is basic, i love the relative simplicity and it was unlike anything else on the market.
In fact its this rather simple design with "form following function" that makes the defender unique. Maybe thats why they have become so iconic and as a result are comanding "big" money now that they are no longer being made.

[manic]

Emmas factory delivered Defender has:
- Seat Warmers
- Heated front glass
- BT phone connectivity
- Power windows
- Central locking
- Power Steering
- DSC
- ABS
- Traction Control
- Fade out interior lighting
[emoji48]


Ruined! :p

[sheerluck]

Interesting! So a vehicle with all the stuff you mention wouldn't be a Defender....

Emmas factory delivered Defender has:
- Seat Warmers
- Heated front glass
- BT phone connectivity
- Power windows
- Central locking
- Power Steering
- DSC
- ABS
- Traction Control
- Fade out interior lighting

We added Cruise Control. [emoji48]

I hope you make her wear a hair shirt, and flog herself regularly when she drives it. :D

[Tombie]

Obviously...

I mean who added Power Steering? Totally removes the driving experience [emoji41]

Even has part leather seats.. So we can be one with nature by sitting on Cow Arse!

And it's wonderful... I enjoy driving the Defender as much as driving my D4.

I enjoy the sensory experience of driving it.

I will happily drive either vehicle anywhere.

[Tombie]

I hope you make her wear a hair shirt, and flog herself regularly when she drives it. :D


She's usually wearing Hi-Vis or Gym Gear. [emoji56]

[MrLandy]

Well, MrLandy, I don't know about exactly the same proportions. Firstly, I'd like to see the B pillars further back, a higher windscreen, no water leaks whatsoever, some sound insulation, better handbrake and window winder placements, quieter, internal padded roll cage or body that will retain it's shape in the event of a rollover, internal airbags, better rear seat positions, the wings should open with the bonnet so we can access that wasted area, etc, etc. There are heaps of improvements that could be made for little or no extra cost. Merc and Toyota are able to produce cars of a similar shape that have addressed all the above yet JLR state we can't have airbags due to the current shape - why?

All good questions Didge and all should be able to be done with due respect to Defender form. Agreed. ...but it won't be. Hence current Defender price rises.

[DiscoMick]

I think the main issue with the new Defender will be getting the body styles right for as wide a range of possibilities as possible.
JLR already has the chassis and suspensions to put under the new Defender. It already has the engines and transmissions. It already has the full range of equipment to put in it.
I can't see why the designers can't package it from a durable basic vehicle to a range of levels. It can have an LR family front and its own identity, linked to past Defenders. You want people to take one look and instantly think "Land Rover."


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

Steering wheel position along with firewall construction and positioning are the key reasons we can't SRS a Defender.

To re-tool all of that up is a very expensive task.

As is the job of tooling up to move everything around/back etc. a big expense.

Then it would leave you with a smaller cargo area as the C pillar and seats would have to go back, the pillars would need to be tripled in size to have strength, the body would need widening as the tunnel prevents moving the hand brake effectively (if the cubby was smaller and it was there people would complain about the small cubby). And the rear cargo area would shrink as the cabin pushed back. This would then need the wheelbase increased to allow for wheel arch to go further back and the entire chassis would need to be stretched in the middle about 4-6 inches.

Toyota was lucky - their steering column is in the correct placement and had sufficient room to adjust for SRS bags to be fitted. They required very few changes to achieve and had volume sales to back it up.

All excellent points Tombie. An extra 6 inches would be good. Redesigning / Re-tooling. Yup that's what a new model means. No escaping it.

[MrLandy]

Why does a Defender have to be devoid of modern technology for it to remain iconic? Sure, there are a lot of gimmicks around today but there are also a lot of genuinely useful technologies that people should absolutely be able to expect in a $60k car. The inclusions of those innovations doesn't have to come at the expense of its historical credentials.

Lane departure warnings, blind spot monitoring, radar cruise control, collision avoidance, queue assist, reversing cameras, terrain response, tyre pressure sensors, hill descent assistance, full mobile phone connectivity - all things I scoffed at until I experienced them. What made these things great wasn't that they were technologically advanced, it was that they were simple, unobtrusive and totally complementary to the driving experience. You barely knew they were there, until they became incredibly useful in some way.

I recently drove a Volvo XC60 for a period of time as a rental and it came standard with a lot of the features above, I thoroughly enjoyed it (I never thought I'd say that about a Volvo). I'd gladly accept any or all of these things in the Defender replacement. Heck, I'd settle for regular old cruise control. It should also have lots of airbags, because that's just a bloody good idea :)

I love my Defender and I don't think I'll ever part with it, but times have changed for the better and the new car should absolutely embrace that. That isn't a betrayal, it's progress which is key to the Defender's future success.

Totally agree Andrew, and the same character could be all wrapped in as close as possible design to original dimensions body shell. But then with all that fruit it would be more like $80-100K which would actually make current higher prices for up to 2016 model look cheap. There could also be a no frills option at $60-70K.

[Plutei]

Has anyone ever noticed that the D3 D4 look like they were derived from Defender?

Seriously if they just modified the front yo look like a Defender ever so slightly, then there it is, the replacement.


I'm very glad that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I thought it might have been because I've had the defender at the same time that my dad has had the D4, but I definitely agree that the defender visuals exist in the D3/4, however I have still never been able to put my finger on what specifically.

[MrLandy]

I don't understand why people that own defenders are complaining about luxuries. If you wanted luxury why didn't you buy a discovery/200 series etc?
I bought my defender becuase it is basic, i love the relative simplicity and it was unlike anything else on the market.
In fact its this rather simple design with "form following function" that makes the defender unique. Maybe thats why they have become so iconic and as a result are comanding "big" money now that they are no longer being made.

I'm with you 1nando. Well said. Cheers.

But I guess others can have a whole fruit tree growing out of their moon roof if they want to

[MrLandy]

I think the main issue with the new Defender will be getting the body styles right for as wide a range of possibilities as possible.
JLR already has the chassis and suspensions to put under the new Defender. It already has the engines and transmissions. It already has the full range of equipment to put in it.
I can't see why the designers can't package it from a durable basic vehicle to a range of levels. It can have an LR family front and its own identity, linked to past Defenders. You want people to take one look and instantly think "Land Rover."


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Totally agree Mick. But why aren't they? ...because it's no longer the market they're interested in. Hasn't been for a very long time actually.

[Babs]

I'm very glad that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I thought it might have been because I've had the defender at the same time that my dad has had the D4, but I definitely agree that the defender visuals exist in the D3/4, however I have still never been able to put my finger on what specifically.

Plutei,

I think it's the narrow body, the roof line is similar, it would be so easy to get that bonnet to mimic the Puma bonnet.

I really think it is the modern Defender. Look at prior to D3 they looked nothing like a Deefer.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[isuzutoo-eh]

To make it more comfortable, have a body similar in width to the Perentie 6x6, but with slightly narrower track than the sixby so the wheels are inside the panels ala Series Landies. Would give better interior space and not be an overly fat pig on the tracks. Bit more room under the bonnet too!

[MrLandy]

Plutei,

I think it's the narrow body, the roof line is similar, it would be so easy to get that bonnet to mimic the Puma bonnet.

I really think it is the modern Defender. Look at prior to D3 they looked nothing like a Deefer.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Pffftttt. Don't kid yourselves fellas. The Discovery 4 is nothing like a Defender, you can't even put basic 16" wheels and tyres on it for a start! But I can see now why the poor Land Rover designers are so flummoxed...they can't work out why they haven't already designed the next Defender! Hmm ...even more reason why real Defender prices are rising.

[Babs]

Pffftttt. Don't kid yourselves fellas. The Discovery 4 is nothing like a Defender, you can't even put basic 16" wheels and tyres on it for a start! But I can see now why the poor Land Rover designers are so flummoxed...they can't work out why they haven't already designed the next Defender! Hmm ...even more reason why real Defender prices are rising.

Ha ha ha, nothing to do with wheels we're talking about the silhouette, many times heading towards me in the distance I have had to focus, thinking a D3 D4 was a Defender heading my way.

If they made the bonnet and grill to resemble the series or puma, why not? It could pass as the modern day Defender. Better than that DC Concept Crap they came out with, what the Hell was that?

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[MrLandy]

Ha ha ha, nothing to do with wheels we're talking about the silhouette, many times heading towards me in the distance I have had to focus, thinking a D3 D4 was a Defender heading my way.

If they made the bonnet and grill to resemble the series or puma, why not? It could pass as the modern day Defender. Better than that DC Concept Crap they came out with, what the Hell was that?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Oh babs... ;) are you sure you're not just trying to convince yourself it's ok to swap your Defender for a Disco? :p

...I never mistake the two. One is a design classic, the other is a glorified shopping trolley. :wasntme:

[cuppabillytea]

Oops,,,,, I think this thread is merging into the 2016 or more appropriately 2018 or maybe never thread.

[MrLandy]

Oops,,,,, I think this thread is merging into the 2016 or more appropriately 2018 or maybe never thread.

Indeed. Start the maybe never thread CBT! :o

I'm doing my best to explain the Defender price rise on carsales, but all you guys want to convince yourselves of is that the next Defender is already here...and how it has a disco ball inside! :Rolling:

[sheerluck]

...I never mistake the two. One is a design classic, the other is a glorified shopping trolley. :wasntme:

OOooh, too true. All the Defender needs is a handle welding on the back, and it'd be very much at home in the freezer aisle at Coles.

[MrLandy]

OOooh, too true. All the Defender needs is a handle welding on the back, and it'd be very much at home in the freezer aisle at Coles.

Nice try Dave. But nah.

[cuppabillytea]

OOooh, too true. All the Defender needs is a handle welding on the back, and it'd be very much at home in the freezer aisle at Coles.

That's what I thought the last time I parked mine next to a Disco. :p

[sheerluck]

That's what I thought the last time I parked mine next to a Disco. :p

What, "someone weld me a handle and a kiddie seat on the back of my Defender, I'm in need of some frozen peas....."?

Sounds a bit of a waste to me, but it's your vehicle :p

[Tombie]

Indeed. Start the maybe never thread CBT! :o

I'm doing my best to explain the Defender price rise on carsales, but all you guys want to convince yourselves of is that the next Defender is already here...and how it has a disco ball inside! :Rolling:



No you're continuing on and on about a vehicle with a set of "nostalgia glasses" on.

By page three the Carsales discussion was done and dusted.

Now it's descending into "if you have this accessory or that" - well guess what - Emmas DEFENDER also came with a Sun Hatch (Sun roof) - factory.... And no one would dare say her vehicle isn't a real Defender...

From your previous comments it sounds like you have no intention of moving onto another one anyway - so why the **** does it matter if they change or make another?

It doesn't. Does it!

Simple statistics are this...
- Sales sub 18k units a year globally
- Spike in Demand only driven by EOL "cool" and those looking to profiteer by grabbing final units (Kahn, Twisted etc ordered hundreds)
- LR purists will reject almost anything new.
- LR want to have something that doesn't have point above happen


They're all Land Rovers - stop being so divisive...

[MrLandy]

No you're continuing on and on about a vehicle with a set of "nostalgia glasses" on.

By page three the Carsales discussion was done and dusted.

Now it's descending into "if you have this accessory or that" - well guess what - Emmas DEFENDER also came with a Sun Hatch (Sun roof) - factory.... And no one would dare say her vehicle isn't a real Defender...

From your previous comments it sounds like you have no intention of moving onto another one anyway - so why the **** does it matter if they change or make another?

It doesn't. Does it!

Simple statistics are this...
- Sales sub 18k units a year globally
- Spike in Demand only driven by EOL "cool" and those looking to profiteer by grabbing final units (Kahn, Twisted etc ordered hundreds)
- LR purists will reject almost anything new.
- LR want to have something that doesn't have point above happen


They're all Land Rovers - stop being so divisive...

There isn't going to be another one Tombie. That's the point.

It's also the point of this thread.

No I don't think I'll ever own a Disco or Range Rover. They don't meet my needs or inspire me with their design. Nothing against you liking them though. Enjoy.
Cheers.

[cuppabillytea]

What, "someone weld me a handle and a kiddie seat on the back of my Defender, I'm in need of some frozen peas....."?

Sounds a bit of a waste to me, but it's your vehicle :p
Now where did I put my Pencil and Ruler?

[Tombie]

There isn't going to be another one Tombie. That's the point.

It's also the point of this thread.



No - this thread is (was) about the Defenders on Carsales.

[MrLandy]

No - this thread is (was) about the Defenders on Carsales.

That's right. And the reasons their prices are increasing, why it's more difficult to buy one, whether those prices will be sustained, etc.

Production has ended. Defender is iconic. Irreplaceable. Unlike any other vehicle ever made. Which led to this fascinating discussion. Sorry to hear you're not enjoying it.

[sheerluck]

Now where did I put my Pencil and Ruler?

Just behind your left ear billy. ;)

[Andrew86]

I don't understand why people that own defenders are complaining about luxuries. If you wanted luxury why didn't you buy a discovery/200 series etc?

I love my Defender for the same reasons you do - it's a throwback to the simplicity of yesteryear. The truth is though, there aren't many Windows 95 fans left in the world and Land Rover - being a rational, profit seeking business - should be looking to the latest and greatest to make the replacement as good as it can be. I still think that can be done while retaining ruggedness and capability of the originals.

I don't think anyone is complaining that their current Defenders don't have all the fruit of modern cars. I just don't see any reason for it to stay that way when it comes to the replacement.


But then with all that fruit it would be more like $80-100K which would actually make current higher prices for up to 2016 model look cheap. There could also be a no frills option at $60-70K.

All that fruit will be pretty standard fare on cars by 2020. Even today a lot of the tech I listed is readily available on mainstream hatchbacks (Mazda 3) that lost less than $40k.

[manic]

Win 95 !? Defender = DOS. Doesn't need any of that double click, drag and drop, trash can, paper clip assistant rubbish!

CD /expedition
launch.exe

[YOLO110]

DOS.

More like an abacus really... I like the green sliders too! :p

[Babs]

DOS. More like an abacus really... I like the green sliders too! :p

Ha ha ha :p


Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Tombie]

You seem surprised MRLandy that a new vehicle may be in the realm of $80k with lots of features - yet Yotas alternative already floats in that space for cost.

Based on the discussion that the Defender was an equal to these vehicles one could extrapolate that they were underpriced for a long time.

Also, the Yota is also a benchmark for expeditionary travel - just like the Defender. That vehicle has had a multitude of electronics running the show since the TwinCam Diesel.

In much the same way - Defender is about the image of Adventure.. Based on Iconic recognition of shape.

Yet out in the real world, adventure is had in multitudes of vehicles and brands, each with their own inherent strengths and weaknesses.

Most "travellers" I've come across in the last couple of years are in highly electronic, gadget filled, LC Dual Cabs.

It isn't an image - it's about getting out there. In whatever you have.

Many members here do trips I find saddening in the time they have to travel - in amongst work and other commitments - means they push the envelope to see as much as possible in a short time restriction and miss the real atmosphere of the areas they travel.
But they get out there all the same.

Very few 4wd owners of any marque get to fully use their vehicles.

[Tombie]

I hope that LR keep up with the times, and that the forthcoming vehicles continue the spirit of Automotive Pioneering and Ingenuity - and *that* is what LR are renown for.

Either way - were hoping to keep the 90 for many years - and by accident rather than design it looks like it will hold some value.

But value is only important if one wants to sell. And then only if the buyer is willing to pay.
There I think may be the problem!!!

When it comes to LR owners - many are so tight that if they wedged a lump of coal up their butt a week later there would be a diamond!

So who is going to buy these vehicles? [emoji41][emoji12]

[manic]

DOS.

More like an abacus really... I like the green sliders too! :p

Haha

Well actually to be accurate and all inclusive :

Abacus: series 1
Arithmometer: s2
Comptometer: s3
Commadore VIC-20: 90/110/130
DOS: TDI
Win 3.11 : TD5
Win 95 : Puma

[Pickles2]

As the "O.P." of this thread I can say that most of the recent posts on the thread have had very little to do with my intention & thrust, of the thread which was of course, to discuss the defenders on Carsales.
Consequently, I am commencing another thread,.."The New Defender,..Your thoughts".
Pickles.

[Greg4427]

Still seeing the trickle feed of privately bought Defenders being released onto car sales as well as one or two dealers. Prices are holding steady at a high level. Can't afford the private sales as don't have that sorta cash laying around, but hoping to trade my 90 into a 110 so I keep monitoring......

[cuppabillytea]

As the "O.P." of this thread I can say that most of the recent posts on the thread have had very little to do with my intention & thrust, of the thread which was of course, to discuss the defenders on Carsales.
Consequently, I am commencing another thread,.."The New Defender,..Your thoughts".
Pickles.
There is an existing one Pickles. It's been quiet for a while now.

[Pickles2]

There is an existing one Pickles. It's been quiet for a while now.
I wasn't aware of that Billy, but if that is the case, why is everyone writing about it here?
Anyway, the new thread is now up & running, & there's some really good stuff starting to appear, about what might comprise any "new" defender, paticularly an excellent post by Steane.
Pickles.

[cuppabillytea]

I wasn't aware of that Billy, but if that is the case, why is everyone writing about it here?
Anyway, the new thread is now up & running, & there's some really good stuff starting to appear, about what might comprise any "new" defender, paticularly an excellent post by Steane.
Pickles.
Because everyone got tired of that one. i've seen and replied on your new one and it has a slightly different, more pertinent focus. Yes Steins post is good food for thought.

[Greg4427]

Back on topic......a few new 2016 models still available at eye watering prices :o:confused:

[Daz7]

Back on topic......a few new 2016 models still available at eye watering prices :o:confused:

There's shenanigans going on with a lot of them though.

Some are selling only to pop back up weeks later by the same dealer. Another private sale at a stupid price gets sold - a week later its back for sale again same price. So either the sales have fallen through or they have no interest and thinking people don't track sales over more than a week.

I called one private sale. His was $65k dropped to $61k then to $59k. So I asked what he'd sell it for and he suggested he had offers of $56 and 57k. So thanked him for his time and as I'm hanging up he wants to keep me talking. His then went back up to $63k and now its back down to $61k. My thoughts are either he has no offers/needs a certain amount to payout finance or is just **** farting around.

To be honest the bulk are just sitting around, not selling still. A lot have dropped a few grand in price.

[Greg4427]

Yes Daz, I've noticed that with the Heritages and an Adventure as well that they seem to reappear. A couple of others I've "saved" and then get notification when the price has fallen. This has happened with a dealer price going south 3K for late model 110 and a private 130 which I would consider a reasonable buy in the circumstances. But there are a lot of late model 90's going for early 70K which is a bit cheeky lol.

[steane]

I've gone through and contacted all of the high priced 2.2 Pumas on Carsales and nearly every time the phone is answered by the same chap. I have a sneaking suspicion that it is MrLandy...

[MrLandy]

I've gone through and contacted all of the high priced 2.2 Pumas on Carsales and nearly every time the phone is answered by the same chap. I have a sneaking suspicion that it is MrLandy...

Ha ha ha :Rolling: ..,just calling it as I see it.

[ozscott]

Someone is trying to talk the prices up...(does someone owe their better half a holiday to Europe?)

Cheers

[MrLandy]

I got my Defender in 2014 ahead of end of production / price rises because I suspected they were coming. Nothing / No-one could prise it from me now...at any price.

[cuppabillytea]

:wasntme:
Someone is trying to talk the prices up...(does someone owe their better half a holiday to Europe?)

Cheers

[Daz7]

I've gone through and contacted all of the high priced 2.2 Pumas on Carsales and nearly every time the phone is answered by the same chap. I have a sneaking suspicion that it is MrLandy...

Just ruined another keyboard, after having coffee whilst reading that :)

[Andrew86]

Down to 48 for sale now, only 15 of which are 110s. Prices seem steady.

[carlschmid2002]

I do miss my Defender and I wish I had of bought a 110 instead of the 90 in the first place and I might still have it. I did check one out in Brisbane the other day for $56000. It had a massive dint in the front guard. My heart say Defender, but my brain says used D4.

[MrLandy]

I do miss my Defender and I wish I had of bought a 110 instead of the 90 in the first place and I might still have it. I did check one out in Brisbane the other day for $56000. It had a massive dint in the front guard. My heart say Defender, but my brain says used D4.

Get the Defender. Replace the panel. ...NB: Defender dents = patina

PS: there is an excellent looking white 2014 Defender on Cars Guide for $56,690 in Brisbane. Not sure if that's the one but couldn't see any dents. Grab it while you can.

[Pickles2]

Down to 48 for sale now, only 15 of which are 110s. Prices seem steady.
48?.....Do you mean 48 Pumas?
Pickles.

[carlschmid2002]

Get the Defender. Replace the panel. ...NB: Defender dents = patina

PS: there is an excellent looking white 2014 Defender on Cars Guide for $56,690 in Brisbane. Not sure if that's the one but couldn't see any dents. Grab it while you can.

That's the one. From Metro Nissan. Big dint in left hand front guard panel. I am sure it will be fixed before sale. I can get a HSE Disco 4 for that and after I have taken all the good bits of my D3 I can sell that and get a 300tdi Defender. :D

[ATH]

At the prices they seem to be selling for, or rather, are advertised at, it'll soon be time to tart the Puma up and get shot of it. All I've got to do is get the Cook to agree not to kill me afterwards. Or worse still, stop cooking. :o
"First to see will buy......" ;)
Can't wait for the tyre kickers to roll up.......:(
AlanH.

[Tombie]

Heard word that some Poms have been picking up a few locally and shipping back to UK as they can't get anything over there now.

[travelrover]

Down to 47 now, I bought the immaculate black 2012 90 in Melbourne yesterday!


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[Greg4427]

Down to 47 now, I bought the immaculate black 2012 90 in Melbourne yesterday!


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Congrats Travelrover!

[MrLandy]

That's the one. From Metro Nissan. Big dint in left hand front guard panel. I am sure it will be fixed before sale. I can get a HSE Disco 4 for that and after I have taken all the good bits of my D3 I can sell that and get a 300tdi Defender. :D

Go for it Carl. How many k's on the D4?

[carlschmid2002]

The one I am looking at right now has 70000kms. I am waiting for the deal to finalise on my F6. I am not locking in anything until it is gone and then I will buy.

[MrLandy]

The one I am looking at right now has 70000kms. I am waiting for the deal to finalise on my F6. I am not locking in anything until it is gone and then I will buy.

Sounds reasonable if you would prefer a D4. But if you really want a newish Defender you should buy it. I'm constantly mystified as to why most people think a D4 is worth more than a Defender. I'd buy the Defender hands down. But that's just me and many AULRO folk clearly think I'm a wierdo, so you should probably play it safe and buy the Disco.

[Babs]

Sounds reasonable if you would prefer a D4. But if you really want a newish Defender you should buy it. I'm constantly mystified as to why most people think a D4 is worth more than a Defender. I'd buy the Defender hands down. But that's just me and many AULRO folk clearly think I'm a wierdo, so you should probably play it safe and buy the Disco.

Mr Landy I think you need to test drive a new D4 if you are that mystified. I think if it was feasible for you, you would buy one over a Defender hands down.

Don't reply until you drive one :p

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[MrLandy]

Mr Landy I think you need to test drive a new D4 if you are that mystified. I think if it was feasible for you, you would buy one over a Defender hands down.

Don't reply until you drive one :p

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Cheers Babs, I've driven one. Too fancy, heavy, expensive, carpeted and impractical out bush for me though. Unlike most, I don't value the extra fruit over simplicity of design. Appreciate your attempt to convert me though :p

[Col 110]

Mr Landy I think you need to test drive a new D4 if you are that mystified. I think if it was feasible for you, you would buy one over a Defender hands down.

Don't reply until you drive one :p

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So - I have been on a few LROC trips and have seen a new D4 do very well - I think the D4 is right up there with the Defender :o

I love my 110 - and won't be selling it any time soon - but if I could afford a fully specked D4 (at over twice the price of the 110) I would think about it :twisted:

[MrLandy]

So - I have been on a few LROC trips and have seen a new D4 do very well - I think the D4 is right up there with the Defender :o

I love my 110 - and won't be selling it any time soon - but if I could afford a fully specked D4 (at over twice the price of the 110) I would think about it :twisted:

Really Col?? You'd sell your Montalcino Defender?!?! No way. I don't believe you.

[Col 110]

Really Col?? You'd sell your Montalcino Defender?!?! No way. I don't believe you.
Your right - of course.....

[MrLandy]

Your right - of course.....

:twobeers:

[carlschmid2002]

Sounds reasonable if you would prefer a D4. But if you really want a newish Defender you should buy it. I'm constantly mystified as to why most people think a D4 is worth more than a Defender. I'd buy the Defender hands down. But that's just me and many AULRO folk clearly think I'm a wierdo, so you should probably play it safe and buy the Disco.

You can't compare the two. I love Defenders, but if you really think a used Defender is worth $56000 to $75000 then I might have a bridge to sell you. It looks like a coat hanger and its in the state where they have forgotten how to play Rugby League. I have owned a Defender and now drive a D3. They are completely different. I know which one I would rather have with a young family. It can tow better, I can hear the stereo, it has better fuel economy and I don't have to wait for overtaking lanes.

[MrLandy]

You can't compare the two. I love Defenders, but if you really think a used Defender is worth $56000 to $75000 then I might have a bridge to sell you. It looks like a coat hanger and its in the state where they have forgotten how to play Rugby League. I have owned a Defender and now drive a D3. They are completely different. I know which one I would rather have with a young family. It can tow better, I can hear the stereo, it has better fuel economy and I don't have to wait for overtaking lanes.

Cheers Carl, enjoy. ...By the way, if you can't compare the two, why are you looking at Defenders on car sales? how do you know they are completely different from each other? How do you know which one you would prefer? And why is everyone on here so intent on comparing them?

Defenders are better than Disco's IMO. I know because after comparing them I've decided that I like them more.

[Andrew86]

You can't compare the two. I love Defenders, but if you really think a used Defender is worth $56000 to $75000 then I might have a bridge to sell you.

I'll take the bait. I absolutely think late model Defenders are worth current asking prices, and they'll hold that value a hell of a lot better than a Disco (especially given the D5 is about to drop).

I agree that the two shouldn't be compared, but you only have to look at the prices people pay for air cooled 911s and E30 BMWs to see that there is value in simplicity.

Obviously the Defender isn't going to be to everyone's taste. It's a bit of a lump of a thing. I love mine though, and I don't think there's another car this side of six figures that could feel as special.

[travelrover]

Thanks Greg2247
The dealer said it only went on the yard on Saturday, was sold on Sunday but the finance fell though and I secured it over the phone first thing Monday.
Col 110 you will be seeing this one around North Richmond (including Pecks Rd) in the next week or so. This will be my 5th Defender, only two at home now. Love them, no plans to ever sell.


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[MrLandy]

I'll take the bait. I absolutely think late model Defenders are worth current asking prices, and they'll hold that value a hell of a lot better than a Disco (especially given the D5 is about to drop).

I agree that the two shouldn't be compared...

Agreed Andrew. But you just compared them on price in your first para!

Of course they can be compared. It's interesting. There are whole threads on here doing so.

[carlschmid2002]

I did 50000kms in a MY12 Defender 90 and I absolutely loved and as previously stated if I had of bought a 110 back then I would probably still have it. Maybe I am just getting old and soft but after owning the D3 I wouldn't go back for a daily drive. I have spent years driving Perenties and Mogs and I am full aware of there offroad ability, but other than the 6x6 variant IMO the D3 is better. Did I mention the cold aircon, the ability to hear the stereo and the air suspension. We all have our individual tastes and I love Defenders I just find the Disco easier to live with. Something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. When I win lotto there will be a Defender in my garage, but for now I will spend my hard earned bucks on a Disco 4.

[MrLandy]

I did 50000kms in a MY12 Defender 90 and I absolutely loved and as previously stated if I had of bought a 110 back then I would probably still have it. Maybe I am just getting old and soft but after owning the D3 I wouldn't go back for a daily drive. I have spent years driving Perenties and Mogs and I am full aware of there offroad ability, but other than the 6x6 variant IMO the D3 is better. Did I mention the cold aircon, the ability to hear the stereo and the air suspension. We all have our individual tastes and I love Defenders I just find the Disco easier to live with. Something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. When I win lotto there will be a Defender in my garage, but for now I will spend my hard earned bucks on a Disco 4.

Cheers Carl. In comparison, I love my Defender as my daily drive. It's practicality in all circumstances can't be matched IMO. The simple hose out interior, straightforward suspension set up, clearance, load carrying capacity, visibility are all better than D4 IMO. Aircon, heating, stereo, all excellent, best seating position and above all the pragmatic no frills knockabout nature of Defender make it the pick for me. If I won lotto I still wouldn't buy a Disco. I'd donate the $80K to a very worthy charitable cause and continue enjoying my Defender.

[Babs]

I think Mr Landy thinks "Denial" is a river in Egypt. :p

"Daily driver" this is why mine has gone oh and price. I was constantly searching for more power and an auto. As a daily driver they would have to be the worst vehicle to come to mind.

And if you think daily driver is drive half hour to work, park it all day then drive half hour home, I don't consider that a daily driver.
When your in and out of it all day, driving different locations, fighting traffic, then I'm sure it will grind you down. Apart from that all else is recreational driving.

They are what they are and yes I love them but I don't want to drive it all day everyday. I will look for an older Defender as a toy down the track and do my LS3 with auto but if I have to travel anywhere long distance I think it will be a no brainer which vehicle I will open the door of in the garage. And most would if they have the choice.

If it's a short trip or even a planned day/weekend rock crawling well you'd take the Defender out for a play, wouldn't you.

Peter Sinclair sums it up perfect in one of his YouTube vids, "Baboons Pass" his D4 did the trek with all other vehicles being Defenders, he had to take a lot more care with his driving to avoid damage on wheels and vehicle, nonetheless he did it fairly easy and to his surprise.
He sums it up in a closing at the end of the vid, they have an 8 hour (or whatever) drive ahead of them back home and he says "I know which one I'd rather drive home in". Ha ha ha :)

No one is knocking the Defender, we all own them, love them, have a passion for them but "Get Real" you can't compare them to a D3/4 for a daily driver. We all know how practical they are, hose out, bolt on, simple construction Bla Bla Bla.

They are a recreational/commercial vehicle built only for one purpose and one purpose only, and it does its job it was intended to do exceptionally, that is OffRoad!
They are not built for comfort, power, ergonomics, safety, refinement and so on. You get what you're given.

I still love them, I wouldn't sell mine for anything, Oops oh hang on :p :p :p

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[Andrew86]

I think Mr Landy thinks "Denial" is a river in Egypt. :p

"Daily driver" this is why mine has gone oh and price. I was constantly searching for more power and an auto. As a daily driver they would have to be the worst vehicle to come to mind.

Was that spiel on why you sold your Defender for our benefit, or yours? I'd be careful throwing around the word 'Denial' ;)

I don't know what you're on about anyway, I look for any excuse to take my Defender out. I love driving it - any distance, anywhere. It's involving, engaging and entertaining to boot. The leather seats are awesome, the sound system has loads of punch and it has plenty of power if you stay on top of things.

The D4 is longer, significantly wider and half a tonne heavier (than a 110). I wouldn't call that urban friendly. For reference, a 110 is only 20cms longer than a Ford Focus, and it's narrow track and corner-to-corner visibility makes it a breeze around town. The only real downside is the turning circle.

So I guess you can compare the two, but they remain very different beasts. Personally, I'd take a gear stick over an arm chair any day of the week :)

[Pickles2]

I think Mr Landy thinks "Denial" is a river in Egypt. :p

"Daily driver" this is why mine has gone oh and price. I was constantly searching for more power and an auto. As a daily driver they would have to be the worst vehicle to come to mind.

And if you think daily driver is drive half hour to work, park it all day then drive half hour home, I don't consider that a daily driver.
When your in and out of it all day, driving different locations, fighting traffic, then I'm sure it will grind you down. Apart from that all else is recreational driving.

They are what they are and yes I love them but I don't want to drive it all day everyday. I will look for an older Defender as a toy down the track and do my LS3 with auto but if I have to travel anywhere long distance I think it will be a no brainer which vehicle I will open the door of in the garage. And most would if they have the choice.

If it's a short trip or even a planned day/weekend rock crawling well you'd take the Defender out for a play, wouldn't you.

Peter Sinclair sums it up perfect in one of his YouTube vids, "Baboons Pass" his D4 did the trek with all other vehicles being Defenders, he had to take a lot more care with his driving to avoid damage on wheels and vehicle, nonetheless he did it fairly easy and to his surprise.
He sums it up in a closing at the end of the vid, they have an 8 hour (or whatever) drive ahead of them back home and he says "I know which one I'd rather drive home in". Ha ha ha :)

No one is knocking the Defender, we all own them, love them, have a passion for them but "Get Real" you can't compare them to a D3/4 for a daily driver. We all know how practical they are, hose out, bolt on, simple construction Bla Bla Bla.

They are a recreational/commercial vehicle built only for one purpose and one purpose only, and it does its job it was intended to do exceptionally, that is OffRoad!
They are not built for comfort, power, ergonomics, safety, refinement and so on. You get what you're given.

I still love them, I wouldn't sell mine for anything, Oops oh hang on :p :p :p

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Mate, "Daily Driver",...We couldn't cop that either in a Defender.
Ours was originally bought as a "Daily Driver" for Wifey,......within TWO WEEKS, she knew that a Defender was not gonna cut it for that purpose.
BUT, We both loved Gracie, still do, but definitely not as an everydayer, coping with traffic, parking, etc etc.
For cruising, relaxing, weekends away etc etc,...there is NOTHING like her, & we look forward to every minute in her during those times, but NOT as an everydayer!!
Pickles.

[Babs]

Was that spiel on why you sold your Defender for our benefit, or yours? I'd be careful throwing around the word 'Denial' ;) I don't know what you're on about anyway, I look for any excuse to take my Defender out. I love driving it - any distance, anywhere. It's involving, engaging and entertaining to boot. The leather seats are awesome, the sound system has loads of punch and it has plenty of power if you stay on top of things. The D4 is longer, significantly wider and half a tonne heavier (than a 110). I wouldn't call that urban friendly. For reference, a 110 is only 20cms longer than a Ford Focus, and it's narrow track and corner-to-corner visibility makes it a breeze around town. The only real downside is the turning circle. So I guess you can compare the two, but they remain very different beasts. Personally, I'd take a gear stick over an arm chair any day of the week :)


Ha ha ha :) No, I know I made the right decision for me moving it on. When I get another it will be a toy and that's it.

And it's great that you love yours so much that's what makes us all different and that's why you drive one and wouldn't drive anything else :;

You can only convince yourself though that it's better to drive a Defender over D4 as a daily driver. :)

Defenders are great they're Iconic, quirky, different practical and on and on and on with their good points but don't tell me they're more comfortable to drive than a D4. Yes you have leather, I had leather Recaros they were great they were comfortable but the whole driving experience wasn't when your tired exhausted, traffic, insufficient sleep, the Defender is not designed for comfort FACT!

Because you're comfortable and could drive it forever doesn't mean the vehicle is, just means your expectations are lower.

We should do a poll if there was a factory option for a 6 speed auto in the Puma who would opt for that?

I'm not here to bag the Defender I love them, I want another one, we are however debating what is more comfortable to drive as a daily driver possibly tourer. What is more comfortable!

I'll say it again, "The Defender was built for a specific purpose and it does that exceptionally well, that is Offroad, no nonsense basic simplicity that works. I'm not saying it's better than a D4 or any other vehicle just saying it does its intended job beautifully.

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[ProjectDirector]

Well I like my defender too but decided not to go to Uluru with wife and two 6ft teenagers. It would have been extremely uncomfortable. Instead we are going to Greece in September.
We drove to Sydney last week for a couple of days with our other SUV, VW and enjoyed the quietness and comfort but still keeping the defender for weekend adventures.

[sheerluck]

.....The D4 is longer, significantly wider and half a tonne heavier (than a 110). I wouldn't call that urban friendly. For reference, a 110 is only 20cms longer than a Ford Focus, and it's narrow track and corner-to-corner visibility makes it a breeze around town. The only real downside is the turning circle. .....

The D4 is 44mm longer than a 110. It's 263mm wider than the 110. You use the word "significantly" to describe the 263mm difference in width, but use the word "only" to describe a 200mm length difference between the 110 and a Focus. :confused:

[Babs]

I think Andrew86 & MrLandy are the same person:p :p :p

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[Tombie]

We're hooking up the Camper to the Defender and taking it to Digger country Friday for the Dirt Wars Obstacle race this weekend.

Why the Defender not the D4?

Well because we can, it will be fun to take the 90 with Camper in tow for a change and to see just how well it goes with it on the back.

Only catch is we will need to watch fuel as the 90 has only got its stock tank at the moment..

The other benefit is the 90 has a fuel card [emoji41]

[MarkM]

A Defender is 13% narrower than a D4, quite a significant percentage
A Defender is only 5% longer than a Focus sedan, and in fact just a bee's .... , or 1% longer than a focus wagon

[Greg4427]

My other half and I had a very late model top of the range SUV and called it the Limo. Gradually I got disenchanted by it though it had everything and drove like a dream. It was so disengaging to drive, it was point and shoot! So after driving the Perentie in the army we bought a 2014 Defender 90, which was lovely but bouncy ha ha. Now we are the proud owners of a 2016 Defender 110 which is my daily driver and I love it! It's great to be back in a manual, sitting high, got that on road presence etc always looking at finding an excuse to drive it and revert back to actually driving and parking a car/truck again without artificial aids! :p

[Babs]

They are fun to drive, I too enjoyed driving it, short distances or dirt tracks, it was the times when you have been away, chased after kids a whole weekend, had no sleep and then you have to drive 4-5 hrs back to Sydney in traffic. Talk about testing.
Or you have just worked a 20hr day on your feet the whole day with no lunch breaks pushing around machinery, then having to drive over an hour home. Believe me the Defender is not so fun and quirky then, it makes you want to plow it into a brick wall. Last thing you want to do is change gears 440 times before you get home :(
Those times you feel like your driving a closed cab John Deer home.

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[Andrew86]

Defenders are great they're Iconic, quirky, different practical and on and on and on with their good points but don't tell me they're more comfortable to drive than a D4.

Because you're comfortable and could drive it forever doesn't mean the vehicle is, just means your expectations are lower.

I apologise if my comments struck a nerve. Your decisions are yours to make, I was just having a laugh. If you're going to hang around the Defender crowd after selling your new 110, expect some friendly banter ;)

I never said the Defender is a more comfortable vehicle than the D4 anyway, I just disagree that it's as bad to live with as you say for the reasons that I mentioned. That isn't because my expectations are lower than yours, it's because we like different things.

Some people like to drive, some like to be driven. There's no right or wrong choice.

I maintain that my MY16 is a very nice, very comfortable little truck to live with. You can call it a toy as much as you like and I'll just keep on looking forward to my next drive :)

[Tombie]

A Defender is 13% narrower than a D4, quite a significant percentage

A Defender is only 5% longer than a Focus sedan, and in fact just a bee's .... , or 1% longer than a focus wagon



Love statistics and their manipulation of figures... [emoji41]

[MrLandy]

Was that spiel on why you sold your Defender for our benefit, or yours? I'd be careful throwing around the word 'Denial' ;)

I don't know what you're on about anyway, I look for any excuse to take my Defender out. I love driving it - any distance, anywhere. It's involving, engaging and entertaining to boot. The leather seats are awesome, the sound system has loads of punch and it has plenty of power if you stay on top of things.

The D4 is longer, significantly wider and half a tonne heavier (than a 110). I wouldn't call that urban friendly. For reference, a 110 is only 20cms longer than a Ford Focus, and it's narrow track and corner-to-corner visibility makes it a breeze around town. The only real downside is the turning circle.

So I guess you can compare the two, but they remain very different beasts. Personally, I'd take a gear stick over an arm chair any day of the week :)

Well said Andrew. Totally agree. All excellent reasons why Defender is an awesome daily driver.

I have no idea what you're on about either Babs! ...Justification for the worst decision of your life? Denial indeed! :wasntme:

What makes you think I'm not in and out of my Defender all day, every day? In all circumstances, city, bush, huge long drives, start stop all day around town. Easy parking. Totally pragmatic. Stylish. Enjoyable. It does it all. Defender is the best vehicle for such a diverse life!

I vote for a gear stick over arm chair too. Perish the thought of a self driving vehicle!

But you keep convincing yourself Babs and stay off topic. ...why else are you in this thread if you're not looking for another Defender?

Swapping to a D4 would be lowering my expectations, not the other way around.

[DiscoMick]

That's the one. From Metro Nissan. Big dint in left hand front guard panel. I am sure it will be fixed before sale. I can get a HSE Disco 4 for that and after I have taken all the good bits of my D3 I can sell that and get a 300tdi Defender. :D

Yeah but Defenders are going up in value while Discos are going down so its clear which is the best investment.

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[sheerluck]

Yeah but Defenders are going up in value while Discos are going down so its clear which is the best investment.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Rembrandts are going up in value as well, but I'd struggle using one of them as a daily driver.

[Babs]

Andrew if we can't Banter what can we do?

No offence taken or given after all I started by giving MrLandy some Curry. He he :p :)

Besides I have to stay on the Defender side of the forum, I have to keep on top of all the problems I will be encountering when I get another one :p

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[Tombie]

Andrew if we can't Banter what can we do?

No offence taken or given after all I started by giving MrLandy some Curry. He he :p :)

Besides I have to stay on the Defender side of the forum, I have to keep on top of all the problems I will be encountering when I get another one :p

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Curry... At least the D4 has a hook for that!!!

[MrLandy]

He he, curried Tombie and Babs. :p

I knew it! Babs regret...

[Col 110]

Col 110 you will be seeing this one around North Richmond (including Pecks Rd) in the next week or so. This will be my 5th Defender, only two at home now. Love them, no plans to ever sell.

Looking forward to it - expect a big wave - I get a bit enthusiastic :D

[Andrew86]

Besides I have to stay on the Defender side of the forum, I have to keep on top of all the problems I will be encountering when I get another one :p

Discovery isn't exactly a name synonymous with reliability and dependability either. We're all suckers for punishment in that regard.

The difference is that the Defender doesn't depreciate while it's sitting in the shop ;)

[carlschmid2002]

Yeah but Defenders are going up in value while Discos are going down so its clear which is the best investment. Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Not so sure about that. When all the trendy city slickers who bought them at the last minute realise they aren't as comfortable as the BMW or Mercedes they gave hip to look rugged and cool with the flowing beard, we might find a lot of low Km, never seen the dirt cars with all the trimmings hit the market.

[Pickles2]

Ha ha ha :) No, I know I made the right decision for me moving it on. When I get another it will be a toy and that's it.

And it's great that you love yours so much that's what makes us all different and that's why you drive one and wouldn't drive anything else :;

You can only convince yourself though that it's better to drive a Defender over D4 as a daily driver. :)

Defenders are great they're Iconic, quirky, different practical and on and on and on with their good points but don't tell me they're more comfortable to drive than a D4. Yes you have leather, I had leather Recaros they were great they were comfortable but the whole driving experience wasn't when your tired exhausted, traffic, insufficient sleep, the Defender is not designed for comfort FACT!

Because you're comfortable and could drive it forever doesn't mean the vehicle is, just means your expectations are lower.

We should do a poll if there was a factory option for a 6 speed auto in the Puma who would opt for that?

I'm not here to bag the Defender I love them, I want another one, we are however debating what is more comfortable to drive as a daily driver possibly tourer. What is more comfortable!

I'll say it again, "The Defender was built for a specific purpose and it does that exceptionally well, that is Offroad, no nonsense basic simplicity that works. I'm not saying it's better than a D4 or any other vehicle just saying it does its intended job beautifully.

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"6 speed auto"?,....well I might consider that, but I'd want something much "stronger" than a 90kw 2.2 Puma up front.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

I just had a look at car sales out of interest. There are plenty of good looking examples at around 50,000km for around $50,000, which is about right I reckon, considering end of production. Most around $8-10K over what they might have been secondhand before end of production, which leaves room for negotiation. Looks fair to me at the mo. Cheers

[steane]

Not so sure about that. When all the trendy city slickers who bought them at the last minute realise they aren't as comfortable as the BMW or Mercedes they gave hip to look rugged and cool with the flowing beard, we might find a lot of low Km, never seen the dirt cars with all the trimmings hit the market.

Yep. The 'buyer type' changed dramatically with the 2.2. They'll be back in their VWs in the next year or two.

[Pickles2]

Not so sure about that. When all the trendy city slickers who bought them at the last minute realise they aren't as comfortable as the BMW or Mercedes they gave hip to look rugged and cool with the flowing beard, we might find a lot of low Km, never seen the dirt cars with all the trimmings hit the market.
Lol!..Won't be ours,...we owned a Mercedes AMG C63 before Gracie,..FOUR times more powerful, over twice as fast, EVERYTHING that opens & shuts, but We ain't getting rid of Gracie anytime soon.
A few years ago, after owning a succession of powerful V8s, I would never have believed that I would say that I'm happy with a 90KW diesel,...but I am,......VERY.
Pickles.
NB:However, just gotta say though, the C63 6.2L AMG V8 under Gracie's bonnet, does make me wonder.....!!

[carlschmid2002]

Lol!..Won't be ours,...we owned a Mercedes AMG C63 before Gracie,..FOUR times more powerful, over twice as fast, EVERYTHING that opens & shuts, but We ain't getting rid of Gracie anytime soon.
A few years ago, after owning a succession of powerful V8s, I would never have believed that I would say that I'm happy with a 90KW diesel,...but I am,......VERY.
Pickles.
NB:However, just gotta say though, the C63 6.2L AMG V8 under Gracie's bonnet, does make me wonder.....!!

That would be an AMG G-Wagon. I would love to drive one of those.

[sheerluck]

That would be an AMG G-Wagon. I would love to drive one of those.

Oh yes. Or a RRS SVR. :cool:

[Geary]

Seems to me that prices for 2007-2010 model 110's have come down to a more realistic $35-40k with some in that range dropping in price and still not selling despite appearing in good condition and only ~130-150k kms. Top end is still inflated though IMO.

[Andrew86]

Not so sure about that. When all the trendy city slickers who bought them at the last minute realise they aren't as comfortable as the BMW or Mercedes they gave hip to look rugged and cool with the flowing beard, we might find a lot of low Km, never seen the dirt cars with all.

I've seen this rather bitter commentary in a few threads now, but I'm yet to see any evidence to support it. Almost all of the dealer allocations in WA over the 12 months leading up to the end of production went to people who already owned Defenders. Some were buying their third or fourth, and one guy was even up to his sixth!

Keeping in mind that fewer than 60 cars were sold nation-wide in the final rush in January, I'm not sure how many of these mythical bearded hipsters could have possibly bought them, let alone be in a rush to sell.

There really isn't such a thing as a typical Defender owner anyway, they appeal to all sorts of different people. They're classless, which is what makes them so great.

[Babs]

There is some truth to the bearded hipster, maybe not all bearded but I have seen more Defenders in and around Alexandria than at a Land Rover dealer.

And you can see none of them go Offroad. They really are Hipster drivers.

This is no exaggeration on the amount of Defenders around this trendy hipster inner city suburb, I am always surprised to see so many Defenders around there.

And to top it off when I was in mine I never got a wave from any of them. :(

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[tailslide]

"6 speed auto"?,....well I might consider that, but I'd want something much "stronger" than a 90kw 2.2 Puma up front.
Pickles.

Mine is 11% 'stronger? at 100kw off the production line. They also upped the torque to 400nm. :cool:

[carlschmid2002]

I've seen this rather bitter commentary in a few threads now, but I'm yet to see any evidence to support it. Almost all of the dealer allocations in WA over the 12 months leading up to the end of production went to people who already owned Defenders. Some were buying their third or fourth, and one guy was even up to his sixth!

Keeping in mind that fewer than 60 cars were sold nation-wide in the final rush in January, I'm not sure how many of these mythical bearded hipsters could have possibly bought them, let alone be in a rush to sell.

There really isn't such a thing as a typical Defender owner anyway, they appeal to all sorts of different people. They're classless, which is what makes them so great.
I wouldn't exactly call it bitter commentary, I would call it friendly banter unless of course it touches a nerve. By the way I took my 2 year old with me to pick up Pizzas tonight and even with the lovely Jag V8 Burble we could hold a conversation with her on the back seat. You Defender types must miss that. Sorry, I forgot, you can't fit baby seats.

[scarry]

There is some truth to the bearded hipster, maybe not all bearded but I have seen more Defenders in and around Alexandria than at a Land Rover dealer.

And you can see none of them go Offroad. They really are Hipster drivers.

This is no exaggeration on the amount of Defenders around this trendy hipster inner city suburb, I am always surprised to see so many Defenders around there.

And to top it off when I was in mine I never got a wave from any of them. :(

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They will be good buying in a couple of years when they get sick of them,never been off road,just driven to school and back,soccer training on the weekend,bla,bla.

[steane]

Keeping in mind that fewer than 60 cars were sold nation-wide in the final rush in January, I'm not sure how many of these mythical bearded hipsters could have possibly bought them, let alone be in a rush to sell.


300 or so Defenders have been sold since then, including two months where the 'final rush in January' was more than doubled. There was undoubtedly a shift in buyer type, it's become quite obvious on this forum. Eccentric, prickly, practical, DIY tightwad adventurers bought TDIs, TD5s and Puma 2.4s. Puma 2.2s have been bought by some of the same people but also plenty of misty eyed romantics, zealots and people chasing 'the cool'.

I recently gave a couple my thoughts on which 4wds to consider buying. They went out and test drove all of them, including the Defender. Their thoughts on the Defender "oh my god, it was the worst car we've ever driven, it was terrible. Had a certain appeal but we couldn't live with it..." and that is why some of the romantics and most of the cool buyers will sell in the next year or two.

For 99.9 per cent of the population a Defender isn't a vehicle they can live with.

[MrLandy]

Nothing surprising here, considering this is now Land Rover's only target market: romantic, urbane types with escapist fantasies rarely enacted. The marketing, the fancy dealerships, the nostalgic dew-eyed view of JLR designers, the yuppy image. Just wait and see how many hipsters line up for new Defender-Lite and Defender-Lite Sport in 2020! :cool:

[Andrew86]

This is no exaggeration on the amount of Defenders around this trendy hipster inner city suburb, I am always surprised to see so many Defenders around there.

And to top it off when I was in mine I never got a wave from any of them. :(

They could tell you were a Disco driver in disguise ;)

I don't see what's surprising about seeing Defenders in city suburbs anyway. 90% of Australia's 23 million people live in urban areas. Seeing a Defender out for coffee on the weekend doesn't say much to me, but I understand that people are classified based on a lot less these days. It's the reason Britain voted to leave the EU and Trump does so well in the States.


300 or so Defenders have been sold since then, including two months where the 'final rush in January' was more than doubled. There was undoubtedly a shift in buyer type, it's become quite obvious on this forum. Eccentric, prickly, practical, DIY tightwad adventurers bought TDIs, TD5s and Puma 2.4s. Puma 2.2s have been bought by some of the same people but also plenty of misty eyed romantics, zealots and people chasing 'the cool'.

Really? I've found the Defender community universally friendly and I wouldn't call anyone I've met both online and in person a zealot (including new 2.2 owners). We're all enthusiastic about our little trucks, but I don't see how that's a bad thing. I'm sorry to hear you haven't had a similar experience. If you're referring to me, I'd gladly buy you a beer and see if I can't change your mind about that.

I'd be interested to see a source for the 300 vehicles sold if you're willing to share. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm genuinely interested in this sort of thing.


For 99.9 per cent of the population a Defender isn't a vehicle they can live with.

Of course not, by modern standards they're well below par. That's why they're dead and buried. I think they're the sort of vehicle you either love or you don't - if you don't, absolutely look elsewhere. I enjoy mine regardless, as do a lot of Puma owners young and old.

[Pickles2]

Well said Andrew.
I don't know where we fit in.....Wifey & I just "like" Gracie, our 90. We've had various cars, and driving in Gracie is very different to all of the other ones!
One of the things I do like, is the "History" of the Landover. I've bought a considerable number of Landrover books & DVDs, including the BEST Landrover DVD I've seen,.. "Stop Gap", and driving a vehicle with the sort of history this vehicle's had, just adds to the "feeling" about our Defender.
Can't put it into words,..we just "like" her.
Pickles.

[Babs]

Andrew, it's not that I'm surprised seeing a Defender in and around Alexandria it's the amount of Defenders in and around :)

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[Andrew86]

Andrew, it's not that I'm surprised seeing a Defender in and around Alexandria it's the amount of Defenders in and around :)

Maybe because it's a nice place to visit? Are Defender drivers not allowed nice things too? I'll be sure to pack a bag of mud to throw over myself when I'm next out for a coffee, just in case someone thinks I'm not rugged enough for my car :p

In all seriousness though, and to bring things back on topic, the high prices we're seeing in Australia and around the world aren't because of the sellers (ie. supply). They're demand driven. Blame the people paying these prices, not the ones asking them. It has very little to do with who does and doesn't have a beard.

[MrLandy]

I made a new friend recently. We've hung out a few times. He's from Europe. The other day he saw my Defender for the first time and told me how much he liked it. I said thanks and I sang Mr Landy's praises as you do, and explained that I'd be paying him off for a long time to come! He said "well that's ok because you'll keep him forever won't you?" I said yes exactly. Then he said, "and he'll never go out of style". :)

This sums it up I reckon. This is why I, along with many others who are seen as a bit wierd, wouldn't drive anything else. Those of us with a particular kind of discerning eye that like living with and utilising such an iconic design, that will last forever if you care for it. Something that is a rarity in our increasingly disposable world. Something so classless and rare that cuts across all the hyperbole. All joking aside about the future direction of Land Rover, anyone who drives a Defender, no matter whom, where or why, is doing so because they appreciate this rare quality. This incredibly rare combination of design simplicity, beauty and utilitarianism. It is very unlikely to ever be repeated. Whatever comes next is highly unlikely to be so timeless.

[MrLandy]

Maybe because it's a nice place to visit? Are Defender drivers not allowed nice things too? I'll be sure to pack a bag of mud to throw over myself when I'm next out for a coffee, just in case someone thinks I'm not rugged enough for my car :p.

:Rolling: Indeed. Hey Andrew I'll meet you there. And I'll make sure i grow a beard for the occasion, then make sure I shave it off as well, all in one day, so I don't get called either a beardy wierdy bushy or a hipster!

[sheerluck]

It's definitely the hipsters and weirdy beardy types pushing the prices up, as this graph clearly shows:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111060&stc=1&d=1468020348

[Greg4427]

Bingo!

Just saw the above on CarSales for $100K :o OMG ha ha they can't be serious! It's even got 8,000Km's on it. Where to next? :wasntme::censored:

[Andrew86]

Bingo!

Just saw the above on CarSales for $100K :o OMG ha ha they can't be serious! It's even got 8,000Km's on it. Where to next? :wasntme::censored:

That's a very ambitious Audi dealership. I suppose next to a Q7 it might look like a bit of a bargain? Who knows :confused:

[carlschmid2002]

Maybe because it's a nice place to visit? Are Defender drivers not allowed nice things too? I'll be sure to pack a bag of mud to throw over myself when I'm next out for a coffee, just in case someone thinks I'm not rugged enough for my car :p

In all seriousness though, and to bring things back on topic, the high prices we're seeing in Australia and around the world aren't because of the sellers (ie. supply). They're demand driven. Blame the people paying these prices, not the ones asking them. It has very little to do with who does and doesn't have a beard.

I hope it's designer mud, you don't want to devalue your investment.

[steane]

Really? I've found the Defender community universally friendly and I wouldn't call anyone I've met both online and in person a zealot (including new 2.2 owners). We're all enthusiastic about our little trucks, but I don't see how that's a bad thing. I'm sorry to hear you haven't had a similar experience. If you're referring to me, I'd gladly buy you a beer and see if I can't change your mind about that.

Really! But nowhere did I state that the Defender community wasn't friendly, so I'm not sure where you pulled that line from. Wasn't me...I would have felt it:p

A zealot is a person who is fanatical and uncompromising. Are you sure you haven't come across one or two of those in this very thread???

I'll take the beer though, but would prefer a red ;)



I'd be interested to see a source for the 300 vehicles sold if you're willing to share. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm genuinely interested in this sort of thing.

VFACTS is the source. I'm pretty sure they are the only source of vehicle sales data. Any figures you hear around the traps will have originated via VFACTS data.

Feb 2016 - 148 Defenders sold
March 2016 - 124 Defenders sold
April 2016 - 21 Defenders sold
May 2016 - 8 Defenders sold
June 2016 - 8 Defenders sold

There will be more sales. My local dealer has a brand new 90 sitting out the front today.

[Andrew86]

Really! But nowhere did I state that the Defender community wasn't friendly, so I'm not sure where you pulled that line from. Wasn't me...I would have felt it:p

A zealot is a person who is fanatical and uncompromising. Are you sure you haven't come across one or two of those in this very thread???

I understand what a zealot it, but I wouldn't call anyone I've met either radical or militant in their love of all things Defender. All Defender drivers are a tiny bit mad, and certainly enthusiasts, that's why we all wave at each other. To suggest that the misty-eyed Land Rover enthusiast only came about when the 2.2 came along is a bit silly.


Feb 2016 - 148 Defenders sold
March 2016 - 124 Defenders sold
April 2016 - 21 Defenders sold
May 2016 - 8 Defenders sold
June 2016 - 8 Defenders sold

Thanks. I was looking for VFACTS data but couldn't find anything more recent than January that didn't require a paid subscription. Still, 150 odd cars a month is hardly a flood given we buy well over 1 million cars a year.

Cheers:)

[steane]

I understand what a zealot it, but I wouldn't call anyone I've met either radical or militant in their love of all things Defender. All Defender drivers are a tiny bit mad, and certainly enthusiasts, that's why we all wave at each other. To suggest that the misty-eyed Land Rover enthusiast only came about when the 2.2 came along is a bit Silly

You sure? Cos you were suggesting it had something to do with being less than friendly, which of course it doesn't. Being a zealot isn't necessarily connected to being militant either, although the original Jewish zealots no doubt found themselves in the odd punch-on...or two.

So to confirm, when I used the word zealot, I was referring to fanatical passion for the Defender and an uncompromising approach to defending that passion.

Now if you haven't come across that here yet...:p

And sorry...but I strongly believe that there is a new misty eyed enthusiast attached to the 2.2. You might think that's silly but the buyer demographic changed in the last few years.

There are/were people buying 2.2s that will never take them off-road, wouldn't know where to look first when it inevitably breaks down and for them it's "an experience" or a case of "I've always wanted one and this was my chance". NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, so don't leap to put words in my mouth, it's just an observation.

In comparison the vast majority (less so with 2.4s) of all pre 2.2 deefers were bought to work and use off-road, which is why it is so difficult and now expensive to find a truly good older example to buy.

Getting back to carsales...the point we are labouring is that I am sure many of these people who bought 2.2s as emotional (misty eyed...) purchases, will reach the point where they've experienced enough and will sell. It will happen over the next two years or so, as finance contracts wind down, and the dwindling tax advantage of the purchase aren't enough to make up for the clonks, clunks, heavy steering, jerky throttle and family risk exposure.

As far as values go, I have some fixed ideas on this and believe what we are seeing at the moment will alter to a degree, but what I believe is already manifesting if Carsales prices are actually a guide. If Defenders were Porsches then I think the Puma will be the 996. One to check back on in 10 years time...

[Babs]

You sure? Cos you were suggesting it had something to do with being less than friendly, which of course it doesn't. Being a zealot isn't necessarily connected to being militant either, although the original Jewish zealots no doubt found themselves in the odd punch-on...or two. So to confirm, when I used the word zealot, I was referring to fanatical passion for the Defender and an uncompromising approach to defending that passion. Now if you haven't come across that here yet...:p And sorry...but I strongly believe that there is a new misty eyed enthusiast attached to the 2.2. You might think that's silly but the buyer demographic changed in the last few years. There are/were people buying 2.2s that will never take them off-road, wouldn't know where to look first when it inevitably breaks down and for them it's "an experience" or a case of "I've always wanted one and this was my chance". NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, so don't leap to put words in my mouth, it's just an observation. In comparison the vast majority (less so with 2.4s) of all pre 2.2 deefers were bought to work and use off-road, which is why it is so difficult and now expensive to find a truly good older example to buy. Getting back to carsales...the point we are labouring is that I am sure many of these people who bought 2.2s as emotional (misty eyed...) purchases, will reach the point where they've experienced enough and will sell. It will happen over the next two years or so, as finance contracts wind down, and the dwindling tax advantage of the purchase aren't enough to make up for the clonks, clunks, heavy steering, jerky throttle and family risk exposure. As far as values go, I have some fixed ideas on this and believe what we are seeing at the moment will alter to a degree, but what I believe is already manifesting if Carsales prices are actually a guide. If Defenders were Porsches then I think the Puma will be the 996. One to check back on in 10 years time...

Hear hear :D

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[Daz7]

There's a 90 for sale at a local Hyundai dealership.

Called in to have a look and noticed a BMW 1M for sale also.

Now, I can't see that either of these vehicles has been traded on a new Hyundai. Pure pricing speculation IMHO on two cars that are seen to have some interesting values on the used market at present.

[steane]

There's a 90 for sale at a local Hyundai dealership.

Called in to have a look and noticed a BMW 1M for sale also.

Now, I can't see that either of these vehicles has been traded on a new Hyundai. Pure pricing speculation IMHO on two cars that are seen to have some interesting values on the used market at present.

There is a tidy but well used 2.4 Puma single cab tray back at a Ford dealer in Adelaide. They have $38k (from memory) on it, is advertised on Carsales. I was looking at buying that exact car at a dealer in Berri at the start of this year for $24k. Needless to say it hasn't sold yet. The Adelaide dealer has wet their finger, stuck it in the air and made up a price. It's a 2.5 hour drive from Berri to Adelaide and I can't fathom how any vehicle can have its value increase by $14k in that amount of time.

[Andrew86]

You sure? Cos you were suggesting it had something to do with being less than friendly, which of course it doesn't. Being a zealot isn't necessarily connected to being militant either, although the original Jewish zealots no doubt found themselves in the odd punch-on...or two.

So to confirm, when I used the word zealot, I was referring to fanatical passion for the Defender and an uncompromising approach to defending that passion.

Now if you haven't come across that here yet...:p

You're certainly using the word in a softer, less derogatory way than I've ever heard it used. My observations of Defender drivers, compared to Tojo and Navara drivers (for example) is that they love their cars but would never try to convince anyone else to love them.

With the exception of Mr Landy (:p), most I've come across at various gatherings are very accepting of the fact that almost everything else on the road today is superior in an all-round sense, and won't passionately defend anything but their own reasons for enjoying their vehicles. That's what I mean by friendly, there just isn't the malice or the rivalry that you see elsewhere. Defenders are the Switzerland of 4x4s.


And sorry...but I strongly believe that there is a new misty eyed enthusiast attached to the 2.2. You might think that's silly but the buyer demographic changed in the last few years.

The buyer demographic has probably been changing for the last 10 or 20 years, as the Defender fell further and further behind the competition as a value proposition (both commercial and recreational). Very few people who bought a Defender in recent years would have done so because it was objectively the best choice out there. I think there's a bit of 'misty eyed' passion in almost all owners, which is why the club scene is so strong.

As I said, my observations (based on conversations with all three WA dealers) is that very few of the last Defenders were being bought here by first time buyers. You're obviously seeing different things, which is interesting.


Getting back to carsales...the point we are labouring is that I am sure many of these people who bought 2.2s as emotional (misty eyed...) purchases, will reach the point where they've experienced enough and will sell. It will happen over the next two years or so, as finance contracts wind down, and the dwindling tax advantage of the purchase aren't enough to make up for the clonks, clunks, heavy steering, jerky throttle and family risk exposure.

Of course we'll see a steady flow of people buying and selling these things over time, I just wouldn't hold your breath for any sort of flood. Given Depreciation is a non-issue, they cost very little to hang on to. So far, the only person we know (behind the CarSales advertisement) who has bought a new Defender and changed his mind (twice, I might add), is Babs. I wonder if he's a hipster... ;)


As far as values go, I have some fixed ideas on this and believe what we are seeing at the moment will alter to a degree, but what I believe is already manifesting if Carsales prices are actually a guide. If Defenders were Porsches then I think the Puma will be the 996. One to check back on in 10 years time...

The Defender is more like a 993 to my eyes, the last of a generation and already an icon.

[Babs]

Ha ha ha :) I try to be a Hipster but every time I grow my beard with my Italian heritage and ethnic looks, I end up looking like a terrorist. :(

I think I look Hip everyone else is in shock :o

My reasons for selling slightly differ, the first time around the vehicle had worn me down after two years of traffic. This time money was the motivation and a combination of the comfort levels, which I was trying to overcome with engine and transmission transplants.
I'm still keeping my eye on the ball though and will buy another that I can do the transplants with.

Forza Defender :D

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[Greg4427]

Would it be fair to say that most of the f those changing hands at are those from dealers? I've noticed the last three to be sold were at dealers, probably the reason being that you could offset your purchase with a trade in without having to find say $70K of spare change to buy privately?
It looks to me that the private sale of Defenders is stagnating, which is also why I elected the trade up route than wait around trying to sell privately when a truck I wanted came up.

[MrLandy]

There's a yellow 04 Defender with 295K for $45K !!! Now they are dreamin! Even with the list of accessories! ...unless it's gold plated

[scarry]

There's a yellow 04 Defender with 295K for $45K !!! Now they are dreamin! Even with the list of accessories! ...unless it's gold plated

Just a typing error,should be a 1 not a 4:p:D;)

[steane]

There's a yellow 04 Defender with 295K for $45K !!! Now they are dreamin! Even with the list of accessories! ...unless it's gold plated

Why are they dreaming? You new Puma blokes are not seeing the big picture with Defenders. You think it's about being newer and low mileage, like they are a Commodore or Camry

It's not. It's about what is becoming collectible and what does/will appeal to the enthusiast, now and over the next decade or two. Not everyone interested in Defenders aspires to own the Ford version.

Australia is just starting to catch up with what's happening in Europe and the US.

[Babs]

Why are they dreaming? You new Puma blokes are not seeing the big picture with Defenders. You think it's about being newer and low mileage, like they are a Commodore or Camry It's not. It's about what is becoming collectible and what does/will appeal to the enthusiast, now and over the next decade or two. Not everyone interested in Defenders aspires to own the Ford version. Australia is just starting to catch up with what's happening in Europe and the US.

Good point. Thumbs up

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[MrLandy]

Well if you're right Steane and Babs, no one can complain about high Defender prices across the board.

[Babs]

Does this mean end of thread ❓

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[MrLandy]

Well it looks to me that Defender prices on carsales have settled at a level similar to the most comparable vehicle - Landcruiser 76 4-door workmate. There are around twice as many Toyotas 120ish compared to Defenders 60ish. It will be interesting to see whether that changes, but yes the thread is probably about a non issue now, unless Defender prices rise or fall significantly.

[Geary]

Per my last post in this thread I've seen a noticeable change in price for 2007-2012 models with a few now sitting under 40k and as low as $33k for nice examples where recently these were $45k+

[ozscott]

As expected Geary. They will go back to where they came from especially the recent years where quality was lower than usual in some respects. Cheers

[Greg4427]

As expected Geary. They will go back to where they came from especially the recent years where quality was lower than usual in some respects. Cheers

So you don't think the quality for the last few years was up to scratch?

[ozscott]

No mate. They skimped based on reports on the net in mechanical and chassis finish. Cheers

[YOLO110]

Back in the UK for the last week. I think the 'bubble' is bursting over here now following the rapid increase in asking prices over the last 6 months or so.

Just seen a nice 2012 Tamar Blue 90 HT with circa 75,000 km sell for ?14k GBP... whereas back in March that would have sold for more.

Heard of some Heritage SW's now coming back towards the ?40k GBP mark too... after the 'silly' season of asking high ?40's.

Personally, not bothered as i guess none of us are... as I am not selling mine, ever! :>)

[Pickles2]

I'm convinced that high priced Defenders, generally $65K+, are not selling.
Pickles.

[Geary]

There's a 110 adventure up at $97k now! At the other end of the scale I had to pass on a decent looking 2008 w/ 200k km for $20k due to bad timing. Surprised that it lasted the 4-5days on gumtree as it had some gear on it too.

[DiscoMick]

I saw something about a new 110 being sold recently for $70k by a dealer. Don't have a link.

[Geary]

There's a nice 06 my03 for sale now....$75k!

[Andrew86]

There's a nice 06 my03 for sale now....$75k!

I knew I'd seen that bus around these parts before...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/49826-show-us-your-deefers-80.html#post2456842

[Pickles2]

Just noticed the highest price "ordinary" Defender 90 I've seen yet.
A '16 registered "Black Pack" with 94klms on the clock for $85K,....not a bad little mark up?!
Pickles.

[scarry]

Just noticed the highest price "ordinary" Defender 90 I've seen yet.
A '16 registered "Black Pack" with 94klms on the clock for $85K,....not a bad little mark up?!
Pickles.

Umm,not really because no one will be paying the $85k;)

You could get a pretty good D4 for that.........

That is if you want a D4.....

[Andrew86]

Prices are a bit all over the place at the moment, but $70k still seems to be about the going rate for a 2015/16 Defender 110.

[ozscott]

But sold price?

[ozscott]

Red Book and Glasses is based on sales data. They out a 2015 MY at about half that for a private sale.

http://www.redbook.com.au/cars/research/used/details/2015-land-rover-defender-manual-awd-my16/SPOT-ITM-425042

Forget about advertised prices.

Cheers

[Andrew86]

Red Book and Glasses is based on sales data. They out a 2015 MY at about half that for a private sale.

Forget about advertised prices.

Good like finding an MY15 110 for $38k! :rolleyes:

[ozscott]

Perhaps not but really, do you know personally anyone who (has been silly enough?) has paid $70k for one? Red book is based on sales data provided by vendors. It might not have caught up with the recent resurgence in interest in Defender ...that is a possibility. I don't believe for a second that people are, generally speaking, paying anything like $70k for a year old to 2 year old 110 standard model with 20k plus miles...cheers

[Pickles2]

Don't know about a 110, but I know someone who sold a 90 for $68K.
Pickles.

[ozscott]

Arghhh... My God. I hope that was a one off! The thing that made Defender great was this... It was a bargain for $50k drive away. I would rather have someone with sharp nails poke me in the eye than pay $70k for a standard Deefer. In fact I would prefer to pay another $10 K and get a 6 year old TD G_Wagen or better still pay $10k and deck out a d2... Or buy a d4. But good luck to those cashing in on a dose of madness. Cheers

[Babs]

Perhaps not but really, do you know personally anyone who (has been silly enough?) has paid $70k for one? Red book is based on sales data provided by vendors. It might not have caught up with the recent resurgence in interest in Defender ...that is a possibility. I don't believe for a second that people are, generally speaking, paying anything like $70k for a year old to 2 year old 110 standard model with 20k plus miles...cheers

Scott, oh yes they are. People are paying those prices.

And forget redbook that's just a guide it's not based on the current market.

The market and what people pay determines what they are worth. And they are selling for over 70k in some cases :)

Cheers, Babs :D Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ozscott]

Hell's Horses. Argh...God damn these electric sex pants!

[rangieman]

Scott, oh yes they are. People are paying those prices.

And forget redbook that's just a guide it's not based on the current market.

The market and what people pay determines what they are worth. And they are selling for over 70k in some cases :)

Cheers, Babs :D Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Funny you say that as car yards will use the red book in their defence to pay you stuff all:eek:
These things are only worth what some punter will pay . If you dont want to spend that much simply dont;)

[Babs]

Funny you say that as car yards will use the red book in their defence to pay you stuff all:eek: These things are only worth what some punter will pay . If you dont want to spend that much simply dont;)

Ha ha ha :) too right. The car yards sure do, anything to help lowball the trade.

It's all relevant, your closing statement sums it up.

Cheers, Babs :D Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Mittsy]

I've spoken to a few yards and private sellers, as im in the market and honestly when you tell these jokers they were 50k drive away they all look at you like your trying to take the p$ss. I'm not sure what there playing at but I hope the pricing settles soon .

[Andrew86]

I've spoken to a few yards and private sellers, as im in the market and honestly when you tell these jokers they were 50k drive away they all look at you like your trying to take the p$ss. I'm not sure what there playing at but I hope the pricing settles soon .

Land Rover doesn't decide what they're worth anymore though, buyers do. In my opinion, and a few others here have said the same thing, Defenders were always a bit of a bargain at $50k. The higher prices we're seeing now is just a correction to reflect that, now that the price ceiling has been removed.

No doubt some of the sellers are being a bit ambitious, but if the car isn't worth what they're asking then it won't sell.

[cafe latte]

I think the fact that there is nothing else out there comparable is why the prices are where they are at. The closest is are the 76 series Toyota and the Mahindra pikup. The Toyota is way more expensive and not as good anyway and far too heavy. The Toyota is probably the reason for the price of used Defenders pumas going up as it is what most people compare the Defender too, that and the Merc again seriously expensive. The Mahindra will probably go most places the Defender will go and the dimensions are similar as is the power. With a decent bullbar and lift kit and the bigger exhaust and chip kit the Mahindra will probably go anywhere. The Mahindra new are are still a bargain and half the price (25k) that a Defender used to cost so anyone who cant afford the inflated price of the Puma this is maybe a consideration..
That said most here know I have both the Mahindra and the Defender and I admit the Defender performs the same and the Mahindra is quieter inside (a lot actually), the Defender has a grin factor and I will never sell mine, also when the Mahindra is tired I will just buy another one, but the Defender will be babied and restored if needed.
Chris

[MrLandy]

Fantastic discussion. Defenders were always under priced and now used prices are equivalent to used Toyota 70 series. Agree that the market is now valuing Defenders differently. I don't think Defender prices will drop.

Mahindra is a clear great value alternative, but it doesn't have the kudos or character of Defender. It will be interesting to see how Mahindras hold up long term. I'd like to drive one.

But I've never enjoyed driving any other vehicle more than Defender and I doubt that will change. Defender just has proportions, handling, dynamics, ability, versatility, aesthetics and character like nothing else.

[Mittsy]

Just Seen a very stock 2016 110 with 4K on the clock 125k$ what a joke . The defender community need to band together and just boycott the silly pricing:o

[Mittsy]

113135

[Pickles2]

Just Seen a very stock 2016 110 with 4K on the clock 125k$ what a joke . The defender community need to band together and just boycott the silly pricing:o
Only a "silly" person would pay that "silly" price.
Unrealistic, IMHO, Pickles.

[MrLandy]

Hilarious...they're obviously not in any hurry to sell. :Rolling: