Disappointed in the D5 / waiting for the Defender

[rammypluge]

I'll bet you a fifty that suspension isn't standard. PatIts not standard, but its just retuned, altered coils, leaves, shocks, front swaybar.

[rammypluge]

I just read on 4x4 Australia that the Amarok has "adequate" ground clearance of 192mm. Is that right? That's less than a stock Discovery Sport and I can tell you that's not enough for some pretty simple off-road driving. It would also make comparisons with the D5 a bit of apples and oranges as they're clearly designed with different priorities.With reasonably minor mods it can become very good. I have wheeled heaps with a 2.5" lifted Patrol on 33's and i always have more capability, the main factors being my rear std diff lock, front tc and high diff clearance. Flex is about the same.

[ozscott]

My D2 With modest lift and no diff locks (centre only) was far better off-road in the Cape than my mates lifted Hilux (The model immediately before the current one) without lockers. Hilux bottomed out and got hung up several times where on the identical line the D2 went through no probs Cheers

[Zeros]

Not sure what any of that has to do with D5 versus mythical new Defender, but Amarok is just a dualcab ute like all medium duty dualcabs utes on the market. It's not a heavy duty 4x4 no matter what suspension upgrade you give it.

[rammypluge]

My D2 With modest lift and no diff locks (centre only) was far better off-road in the Cape than my mates lifted Hilux (The model immediately before the current one) without lockers. Hilux bottomed out and got hung up several times where on the identical line the D2 went through no probs CheersYes, i have seen hilux's struggle big time too. I crawled a track through a drain once, and a lifted hilux with no tc or diff locks tried to follow me. Numerous attempts with wheels scrambling and in the air. Dont think he made it as far as i can recall.

[rammypluge]

Not sure what any of that has to do with D5 versus mythical new Defender, but Amarok is just a dualcab ute like all medium duty dualcabs utes on the market. It's not a heavy duty 4x4 no matter what suspension upgrade you give it.Aspects of the Amarok are heavy duty and some aspects are not. I reckon there are aspects of the Defender that arent heavy duty either.

My Amarok handled loading better when crossing the simpson than the Perentie did.

Another Perentie i know of snapped an axle trying to do a recovery.

[DI5CO]

Now we can discuss this for another 43 pages! Lol

Discovery SVX

We've taken a wrong turn (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/news/2017/4x4-Offroad/Land-Rover/Discovery/frankfurt-motor-show-land-rover-discovery-svx-108909)

[rammypluge]

Reminds me of a Trailhawk.

[Gullible]

I had my first look at a D5 yesterday, The outside was as seen in the adverts and there have been enough comments about the look.

What truely disappointed me was the interior. Don't get me wrong sitting in the drivers seat was pure luxury. But the headroom in the middle row of seats was abysmal. The roof brace on the D3 & D4 is behind the passengers head, in the D5 it is in front of the passengers head. This makes it feel like the roof is much lower that it is, and the roof is quite low above the passenger head. I have more headroom in our Micro and Mirage than in the D5.

Moving to the rear set of seats was even worse, the whole car pulls in from the middle row of seats. Everything apart from the floor gets narrower the further back you go. This makes you feel like you are being crammed into a small space, tucked away in a little pocket, or put in a cupboard for punishment.

Now to the windows. I understand that with cameras all around driver vision is not such a big deal, but small cars have small windows. Cheep cars also have small windows. The D5 has small windows.

With the small windows, low roof, tight feeling space in the rear, I did not feel like I was in a luxury car. I would like to see a D4 & D5 side by side to see the difference in roof hight and passenger space.

My thoughts were that it did not feel like an SUV, just a big car. Sure it has all the tech and suspension to get you places, but as a passenger I would not want to go to those places sitting in those seat. [bigsad]

[tact]

The OP's concern was that the new d5 doesn't look as capable offroad as its predecessor.

[...]I would never drive a d5 in the same situations ive put my defender in or through.
Would i feel comforable with the possiblity of damaging panels, rims, fuel tank etc....? No i wouldnt. Would i drive it through a tight track with high banks that could hit the panels....? No
[...]


That was a key point for me too. I was assessing buying the then brand new TD5 Disco. Loved it (hard for a then Toyota diehard to say) - but just couldn't bear the thought of covering it with "jungle pinstripes", rubbing it up against banks or trees, or getting mud all over the lovely carpets etc. So back to the toyota dealer I went back then...

Had no qualms so many years later (2013) in buying a brand new Defender and driving it from showroom into the Malaysian mud and jungles. Love that vehicle so much I brought it to Sydney with me earlier this year when I returned to Oz!

[Zeros]

I had my first look at a D5 yesterday, The outside was as seen in the adverts and there have been enough comments about the look.

What truely disappointed me was the interior. Don't get me wrong sitting in the drivers seat was pure luxury. But the headroom in the middle row of seats was abysmal. The roof brace on the D3 & D4 is behind the passengers head, in the D5 it is in front of the passengers head. This makes it feel like the roof is much lower that it is, and the roof is quite low above the passenger head. I have more headroom in our Micro and Mirage than in the D5.

Moving to the rear set of seats was even worse, the whole car pulls in from the middle row of seats. Everything apart from the floor gets narrower the further back you go. This makes you feel like you are being crammed into a small space, tucked away in a little pocket, or put in a cupboard for punishment.

Now to the windows. I understand that with cameras all around driver vision is not such a big deal, but small cars have small windows. Cheep cars also have small windows. The D5 has small windows.

With the small windows, low roof, tight feeling space in the rear, I did not feel like I was in a luxury car. I would like to see a D4 & D5 side by side to see the difference in roof hight and passenger space.

My thoughts were that it did not feel like an SUV, just a big car. Sure it has all the tech and suspension to get you places, but as a passenger I would not want to go to those places sitting in those seat. [bigsad]

Great points well made. Agreed. Especially back seats. It feels like being in the back seat of a Cessna with no wings. And it's $75K starting price. ...although I haven't driven one.

[~Rich~]

I drove the twin turbo 4, to tell you the truth I thought it would go much better than it did. Didn't feel as strong as my old TDV6 off the mark.

[discojools]

I drove the twin turbo 4, to tell you the truth I thought it would go much better than it did. Didn't feel as strong as my old TDV6 off the mark.


Mmmh interesting,. I had a RRS SD4 on loan the other day. I was pretty impressed especially off the mark. There was instant response. Thought not as urgent at high revs as my SDV6. Quieter than SDV6 at 100kph. Also lighter front end made it more nimble. What it would be like towing anything heavy I don't know.

[rammypluge]

A new styling trend has been developing, which i call 'Amorphous Blob'.

I noticed it first with the previous generation hilux, then the 200 series, then Y62 patrol, then mitsubishi outlander(?), then disco sport, now kinda D5.

I think they start with an egg and turn it into a car. Its good for aerodynamics, but how about some distinction and character? It doesnt have to come at the expense of aerodynamics.

[jon3950]

There are always styling trends that are followed and cars from any given era share some similarity. Look at a Series 1 and a Jeep from the same era and there's not much difference - or a series 2 and a G60 Patrol or FJ40 Cruiser.

I'm not the biggest fan of the D5 styling (the rear looks like a disabled taxi to me) but after having seen a few on the road it is starting to grow on me. While there is a lot of similarity with other LR models I don't agree with the comparisons with other marques. On the road the Disco is quite distinctive and has a real presence. The styling is on another plane to the Japanese and Korean offerings.

If you want to talk ugly, talk Prado. Have you seen the 2018 model? I didn't think it was possible to make it uglier than the current one.

Cheers,
Jon

[SBD4]

A new styling trend has been developing, which i call 'Amorphous Blob'.

I noticed it first with the previous generation hilux, then the 200 series, then Y62 patrol, then mitsubishi outlander(?), then disco sport, now kinda D5.

I think they start with an egg and turn it into a car. Its good for aerodynamics, but how about some distinction and character? It doesnt have to come at the expense of aerodynamics.
They have to met the design rules of many different countries, try to get the best of both function and form, keep within the design story for the brand while still making it unique, so there's more at play than simple aerodynamics, pedestrian safety might even be a factor too[wink11]. I think Land Rover do alright when compared with other marques.

[rammypluge]

I think it looks okay but really not like an offroader. With some mods to make it suitable for offroading it could look interesting.

[rammypluge]

When your D5 smartphone controlled seats get hacked,

Go to 4:10 sec . . .
Best of: CHRISTINE - YouTube (https://youtu.be/FLhRLY-AU5o)

[Disco-tastic]

A new styling trend has been developing, which i call 'Amorphous Blob'.

I noticed it first with the previous generation hilux, then the 200 series, then Y62 patrol, then mitsubishi outlander(?), then disco sport, now kinda D5.

I think they start with an egg and turn it into a car. Its good for aerodynamics, but how about some distinction and character? It doesnt have to come at the expense of aerodynamics.

What are some cars that you do like? The first 3, while not pretty, are recognisable (well maybe not so much the patrol), the outlander and DS are well proportioned and good looking. The D5 is good from most angles, just has a big rump.

Theres not much uglier than the back of a Ssangyong Stavic
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/515.jpg

[Zeros]

I wonder what the drag coeffiecient of the Ssangyong Stavic is, compared to the D5? The shape is remarkably similar.

Does anyone know, are the D5's drag coefficient numbers and fuel consumption figures really that much better than those of the D4? As this seems to be the most touted reasoning for the new cane toad / blob rump conformity - instead of the far more practical squared off design of D4.

...having said that and not really liking the look or functionality of the D5 ...I'd still like to take one for a spin!

[cripesamighty]

"...having said that and not really liking the look or functionality of the D5 ...I'd still like to take one for a spin!"

Me too. Make mine the V8 SVX version thanks!

[DiscoMick]

The D5's styling was previewed on the Ford Explorer. Just have a look on Google Images and see what I mean.
Ford Explorer - Google Search (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Ford+Explorer&as_st=y&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYtKXEkK7WAhUGmJQKHWhcAm8Q_AUICigB&biw=720&bih=1244&dpr=2#imgrc=gfWnbHmwXfAD2M:)

[Zeros]

The D5's styling was previewed on the Ford Explorer. Just have a look on Google Images and see what I mean.
Ford Explorer - Google Search (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Ford+Explorer&as_st=y&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYtKXEkK7WAhUGmJQKHWhcAm8Q_AUICigB&biw=720&bih=1244&dpr=2#imgrc=gfWnbHmwXfAD2M:)

Yup, now D5's looks are even more disappointing.

[rammypluge]

What are some cars that you do like? The first 3, while not pretty, are recognisable (well maybe not so much the patrol), the outlander and DS are well proportioned and good looking. The D5 is good from most angles, just has a big rump.
The previous gen Hilux to me looked narrow and feminine with a large front overhang.

The first of the current series outlander to me looks very soft and feminine, with no real distinctive features, very forgettable apart from its distinctive soft look.https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/517.jpg

The first of the 200 series looks bland, especially at the rear. The front has been given some distinction in recent time, although it appeals to american taste.

The Patrol is acres of bland inside and out, although i have seen one with aftermarket rims and tyres, a front bar with lights, and he did a great job of it, it looked good, although not directly from the rear.

The D5 looks okay, but is soft and feminine, and forgettable. Looks like a Discovery Sport. With some macho accessories it would gain distinction.

I reckon the D3 looked good when new, and if anything looks better now. I also like the L322, the current FFRR, Evoque, and the 2 door Rangie. The Mercedes X class ute concept looked good (unlike the actual mongrel production car).

[rammypluge]

Does anyone know, are the D5's drag coefficient numbers and fuel consumption figures really that much better than those of the D4? As this seems to be the most touted reasoning for the new cane toad / blob rump conformity - instead of the far more practical squared off design of D4.
I figure the biggest factor for any fuel economy improvement from D4 to D5 around a city would be primarily due to weight reduction.

Having a smooth exterior is also about lowering NVH and wind buffeting. The FFRR also has a smooth exterior, yet is distinctive and interesting.

[rammypluge]

The D5's styling was previewed on the Ford Explorer. Just have a look on Google Images and see what I mean.
Ford Explorer - Google Search (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Ford+Explorer&as_st=y&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYtKXEkK7WAhUGmJQKHWhcAm8Q_AUICigB&biw=720&bih=1244&dpr=2#imgrc=gfWnbHmwXfAD2M:)Ford bought LR partly to gain knowledge and tech. They co-developed the D3, then sold LR, and then their Explorer went from sub par to possibly being the next gen in a way from the D3 they co-developed. My thinking anyway.

[Zeros]

I figure the biggest factor for any fuel economy improvement from D4 to D5 around a city would be primarily due to weight reduction.

Having a smooth exterior is also about lowering NVH and wind buffeting. The FFRR also has a smooth exterior, yet is distinctive and interesting.

Yes, but has it actually made any difference?

[Zeros]

Ford bought LR partly to gain knowledge and tech. They co-developed the D3, then sold LR, and then their Explorer went from sub par to possibly being the next gen in a way from the D3 they co-developed. My thinking anyway.

Also the Ranger with the clam shell bonnet. Although Land Rover also benefited by gaining access to the Duratorq engine, prior to developing Ingenium.

[jon3950]

Does anyone know, are the D5's drag coefficient numbers and fuel consumption figures really that much better than those of the D4? As this seems to be the most touted reasoning for the new cane toad / blob rump conformity - instead of the far more practical squared off design of D4.

The main reason for the rounded shape is the European pedestrian safety laws. This was also a big part of why Defender was killed off.

Cheers,
Jon

[Zeros]

The main reason for the rounded shape is the European pedestrian safety laws. This was also a big part of why Defender was killed off.

Cheers,
Jon

Thanks John, yes I know that's another reason often given. But where does that leave vehicles such as the new G Professional, Toyota 70 series and trucks for that matter? I suppose I'm not convinced. I think it's primarily a styling thing.

[Arapiles]

I had my first look at a D5 yesterday, The outside was as seen in the adverts and there have been enough comments about the look.What truely disappointed me was the interior. Don't get me wrong sitting in the drivers seat was pure luxury. But the headroom in the middle row of seats was abysmal. The roof brace on the D3 & D4 is behind the passengers head, in the D5 it is in front of the passengers head. This makes it feel like the roof is much lower that it is, and the roof is quite low above the passenger head. I have more headroom in our Micro and Mirage than in the D5.Moving to the rear set of seats was even worse, the whole car pulls in from the middle row of seats. Everything apart from the floor gets narrower the further back you go. This makes you feel like you are being crammed into a small space, tucked away in a little pocket, or put in a cupboard for punishment.Now to the windows. I understand that with cameras all around driver vision is not such a big deal, but small cars have small windows. Cheep cars also have small windows. The D5 has small windows.With the small windows, low roof, tight feeling space in the rear, I did not feel like I was in a luxury car. I would like to see a D4 & D5 side by side to see the difference in roof hight and passenger space.My thoughts were that it did not feel like an SUV, just a big car. Sure it has all the tech and suspension to get you places, but as a passenger I would not want to go to those places sitting in those seat. [bigsad]

Which is why, having sat in both the D4 and the D5 at the same dealers, I bought the low-K, second-hand D4. And even the dealers told me that the D5 has less leg room, so I suspect that LR is getting some fairly blunt feedback from their dealers.

By the way, the D5's CD is 0.33 vs 0.40 for the D4, but the frontal area of the D5 could actually be larger than the D4's.

[Zeros]

By the way, the D5's CD is 0.33 vs 0.40 for the D4, but the frontal area of the D5 could actually be larger than the D4's.

Thanks Arapiles, how about real world fuel consumption? Any D5 owners with figures to compare with D4?

[Disco-tastic]

The D5 looks okay, but is soft and feminine, and forgettable. Looks like a Discovery Sport. With some macho accessories it would gain distinction...

Haha its supposed to look like a bigger disco sport. And similar to a range rover. Thats the whole point of their similar exterior design [emoji14]

Anyways. I can't afford one anyway. I agree with you on the D3 looking good though. I just washed mine and after 2 years of ownership i still look back at it when walking away :D

[rammypluge]

The most important facet of a vehicle for aerodynamics is the rear, thats why the patrol and many newer cars are rounded there. The D5 takes it a step further with that taper.

However, when loading a Perentie to cross the Simpson Desert, we put a hungry board behind the rear seat and loaded it to the ceiling, and the square rear was perfect for swallowing a heap of stuff.

The only way to have space and aerodynamics is to have a bigger vehicle.

[rammypluge]

Yes, but has it actually made any difference?Since fuel economy is affected by a multitude of factors, such as engine efficiency, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, drivetrain friction, etc, no one factor can create a quantum leap. But they seem to be tackling it on numerous fronts.

[Zeros]

Since fuel economy is affected by a multitude of factors, such as engine efficiency, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, drivetrain friction, etc, no one factor can create a quantum leap. But they seem to be tackling it on numerous fronts.

Yes but I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether all the reasons for the D5's new shape (other than aesthetic) are actually making any difference? Otherwise it's just spin and the new shape is all about attracting a different market segment from that of the D4 IMO.

[Arapiles]

The most important facet of a vehicle for aerodynamics is the rear, thats why the patrol and many newer cars are rounded there. The D5 takes it a step further with that taper.

Exactly right, we were driving behind a D5 in the city last week and my wife commented on how inwards-tapered the rear of the D5 is.

[Arapiles]

Thanks Arapiles, how about real world fuel consumption? Any D5 owners with figures to compare with D4?

I'll see if I can track down the CdA (which is CD times frontal area).

Real world consumption should be better, you'd hope ....

[jon3950]

Thanks John, yes I know that's another reason often given. But where does that leave vehicles such as the new G Professional, Toyota 70 series and trucks for that matter? I suppose I'm not convinced. I think it's primarily a styling thing.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to convince you of, but here's a little light reading on the subject of pedestrian safety:

Taking the Hit: How Pedestrian-Protection Regs Make Cars Fatter - Feature - Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/taking-the-hit-how-pedestrian-protection-regs-make-cars-fatter-feature)

European Pedestrian Crash Standards Will Make Global Changes in Car Design Inevitable | Safety Research & Strategies, Inc. (http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/european-pedestrian-crash-standards-will-make-global-changes-car-design-inevitable)

If you want some heavy reading, here's the legislation:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32009R0078

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32009R0631

The legislation basically only applies to light vehicles, both passenger and cargo. The 70 series cruisers are no longer sold in Europe and the G Wagon has been modified to meet the legislation.


Yes but I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether all the reasons for the D5's new shape (other than aesthetic) are actually making any difference? Otherwise it's just spin and the new shape is all about attracting a different market segment from that of the D4 IMO.

The styling has been changed for a whole range of reasons, pedestrian safety, aerodynamics, weight saving, fuel economy and to bring it in to line with their current corporate style.

I'd suggest it's not so much about attracting a different market segment as narrowing that segment down. It's not all that long ago that Land Rover only had 3 models and Discovery had to fill the very large gap between Defender and Range Rover. Now with the increasing model range it can be more closely targeted to a market segment.

Where Discovery has previously sat in relation to most of our expectations will be filled with the new Defender range - and yes it is coming. I also doubt this will be the last model we see with a Discovery badge on it, so there may well be another Discovery that is more aligned to our expectations as well.

Cheers,
Jon

[PerthDisco]

Beats me what they're up to as with so many similar looking cars now all looking the same. The new RR Velar for example, what's that do different?

[Zeros]

All makes sense Jon, thanks. ...I guess someone will buy it, but I have no idea how you would choose between D5, Velar, RRS. But that's not a problem I'm ever likely to have!

[DI5CO]

Seeing the Velar today in person, wow, it's a very striking car. Looks better in person than the pics. Very different to a D5 and RRS so will appeal to different people as the size is the main difference. (As well as other differences)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/580.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/581.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/582.jpg

[PerthDisco]

Seeing the Velar today in person, wow, it's a very striking car. Looks better in person than the pics. Very different to a D5 and RRS so will appeal to different people as the size is the main difference. (As well as other differences)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/580.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/581.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/582.jpg

More appealing than the D5 for sure. Is it a 4WD? I've no idea.

[Disco-tastic]

I reckon the Velar is the best looking car inside and out in the current LR stable. Its the least 4wd oriented but is still more capable than you think.

[bblaze]

look better with the roof cut off
cheers
blaze

[Zeros]

More appealing than the D5 for sure. Is it a 4WD? I've no idea.

😂😂🤣😆🤑

Is it a Disco Sport? A new Range Rover Sport with a different name? A mini Disco 5? Can it rove the land? I've no idea either! Hang on, is it the new Defender? 😇 It would definitely be able to carry at least 3 small bags of 🐑 poo!

[DI5CO]

There maybe a choice of 2 Defenders now!! Old style and new! Hopefully this would keep some of you happy[emoji23]

Bring back Defender (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/news/2017/4x4-Offroad/Land-Rover/Defender/billionaire-brit-to-bring-back-defender-109059)

[shanegtr]

Not quite sure how Land Rover has managed to make something as good looking as the Velar, and then managed to cock up the looks of the D5. I think the D5 looks alright up to the B pillar and from there back its terrible. Will be interesting to see what the new Defender looks like when it finally arrives

[WhiteD3]

For a laugh I priced up a white D240 Velar with a tow pack, full size spare, driver aids and DAB.

$108K!

That's a lot of money for a small mid-range car.

129817

[rammypluge]

So is it officially called the Land Rover Range Rover Velar, or have they realised the error of their ways?

It looks like a somewhat matured Evoque. Talking about the Velar or many LR products these days in reference to offroading, is like talking about a diamond ring's ability to cut glass. Its just not relevant, not optimised for the task, and surely unhealthy for its true purpose.

[Tombie]

What a ****ing whinge fest this thread is!

[Zeros]

...or a disappointment fiesta! [biggrin]

[PAT303]

What a ****ing whinge fest this thread is!

Your not wrong,back when I was a boy Land Rover were broke with only two vehicles,the 110 and Range Rover.Now they are profitable,have a large range of vehicles that are selling well in every market and because of that they have the confidence and capital to go forward with the new Defender.But everyone wants to whinge. Pat

[rammypluge]

Back when i was a boy they were considered the King of off roaders, and they were.

Now, they arent considered off roaders, and they arent.

[Zeros]

Disappointed in the Velar... "Never before has form upstaged function to such an extent on the very car whose whole birthright is based on the precise opposite philosophy." Daily Mail

[AllTerr]

Back when i was a boy they were considered the King of off roaders, and they were.

Now, they arent considered off roaders, and they arent.
What makes you say that they aren't considered offroaders? Numerous reports and opinions state the opposite. This thread is the only thing so far that I've seen bashing the new lineup... I think critics would be quite surprised if given the the opportunity to go "offroading"

[Tombie]

Back when i was a boy they were considered the King of off roaders, and they were.

Now, they arent considered off roaders, and they arent.

Says who? Rivet counters?

They’re more capable than Defenders, they’re more capable than all that preceded them..

If they don’t ‘tickle your pickle’ then that’s fine... but it doesn’t make them no good offroad, nor less useful. They are in fact on many, many fronts more capable...

They’ll offroad, they can fit urban high rise parking, they handle fantastic on AND off the road, quiet, sealed, and can be loaded much more easily than a Defender through the rear door...

Slab sided as the Defender is, cargo is limited to a bit under door width, leaves gaps on the sides where wheel boxes, curves to windows etc are eat up useable space.

And where a slab side may be an advantage it’s also a disadvantage - the top sticks out as much as the bottom! So you scrape branches that may be missed by others! (There’s always a positive for each)

The only thing lacking is a Pick Up / Tray in the current line up. The Defender replacement will likely cross that off.



Let’s get ****ing real here....

Nobody is staring at a 32cm CRT tv, we’ve grown far beyond that.
Nobody is begging for manual steering, no AC, Ply tyres (mainstream not resto)
Nobody is looking to return to the roots of automotive industry with Points, Condensers and the like.

And the vehicles of the day were “King” only because the others were worse...

I had a recent opportunity to drive a XY GTHO again... my memories were of a sweet handling, hard going, great riding sedan. Reality: Poor handling, rough to drive, poor brakes, cumbersome!! (Great fun though)

Don’t let nostalgia temper progress...

These new generation vehicles will happily Rove, and won’t destroy the occupants whilst doing so.

[Zeros]

The current range of Land Rovers are undoubtedly advanced, stylish and capable within their design remit. They are spectacular machines. If I were in the market for an SUV which I would use occasionally to go off road and I could afford $80-$150K + price tags, I'd be interested. However that's not the Land Rover which suits my purposes. Which is why I drive a Defender.

If Land Rover had expanded their line-up in both directions, with a clear commitment to work vehicles as well as SUV's, we'd all be raving... maybe this is what the new line up of Defender models will be, but until that happens there is obviously going to be critique of the priority in developing so many new SUV models at the expense of the work vehicle sector that the Defender has struggled to keep up with over many years.

Articles such as this one below articulate the view that some us share. Disappointment in Land Rovers priorities and focus on urban luxury vehicles, over pragmatic work vehicles such as Defender. It's directly related to the OP's post.

The great photos of all Land Rover models in the article clearly illustrates the homogeneity and SUV priorities of Land Rover over the past few years:

Why are Land Rover'''s all starting to look the same? | DriveTribe (https://drivetribe.com/p/why-are-land-rovers-all-starting-eauYnUpMSOyOw48iPVAI_g?iid=ZwfzZQ4rSm25fAZiM6b0zQ)

[Tombie]

It’s a bit chicken and egg...

The big dollar units generate the revenue that enables the development of the next generation of Work vehicle...

In a market flooded by Dual Cabs, Light trucks, Tray backs etc there is no priority for obvious reasons...

Up until the announcement the Defender was ceasing production very few people cared, sales were low, overheads high.

Nobody wanted the Iconic Defender to change either, so it was never going to be easy to just make updates as it went along.
Heck, the Power bulge and the dash was controversial enough at the time!

[tact]

Says who? Rivet counters?

They’re more capable than Defenders, they’re more capable than all that preceded them..

If they don’t ‘tickle your pickle’ then that’s fine... but it doesn’t make them no good offroad, nor less useful. They are in fact on many, many fronts more capable...

They’ll offroad, they can fit urban high rise parking, they handle fantastic on AND off the road, quiet, sealed, and can be loaded much more easily than a Defender through the rear door...
[...]

Let’s get ****ing real here....

[...]
These new generation vehicles will happily Rove, and won’t destroy the occupants whilst doing so.

The best of your mum's treasured shiny silverware would turn a screw, or scrape paint, without doubt as well as any of the more utilitarian flatware in the kitchen drawer. But what did your mum say when she caught you using her prized silverware, instead of an older butter knife, as a tyre lever on the Malvern Star dragster you had as a kid?!

You mum, like all sensible people here, lets get ****ing real, would realise the folly of throwing an expensive luxury vehicle - a vehicle with carpets and interiors and paint job worth more than a whole defender - into reasonably challenging offroad trails.

[Tombie]

Thanks for the laugh!!! I can hear her now!
(And my wife says similar regularly) [emoji41]

Remember though many can’t afford 2 vehicles - a dedicated traveller and a daily driver... and for a significant portion of consumers most time is commuting rather than travelling.

[Zeros]

The best of your mum's treasured shiny silverware would turn a screw, or scrape paint, without doubt as well as any of the more utilitarian flatware in the kitchen drawer. But what did your mum say when she caught you using her prized silverware, instead of an older butter knife, as a tyre lever on the Malvern Star dragster you had as a kid?!

You mum, like all sensible people here, lets get ****ing real, would realise the folly of throwing an expensive luxury vehicle - a vehicle with carpets and interiors and paint job worth more than a whole defender - into reasonably challenging offroad trails.

Exactly.

"The closest most owners will go to off-roading will be the gravel driveway to their country estate..." Velar - motoring.com.au

Even the base model Velar is more expensive than a Porsche Macan. ...forget the silverware, try prizing your Malvern Star tyre off with your mums diamond ring!

[tact]

Thanks for the laugh!!! I can hear her now!
(And my wife says similar regularly) [emoji41]

Remember though many can’t afford 2 vehicles - a dedicated traveller and a daily driver... and for a significant portion of consumers most time is commuting rather than travelling.


You're welcome. [biggrin]

Whilst we are a two car family, the other vehicle is used almost exclusively by my wife.

I cannot afford two personal vehicles so my Defender is my daily driver too. (there it is in the exec board carpark at the office in the pic...).

My Defender suits me for the daily commute, in a suit. It does the shopping and school runs on occasion. It handles the harder trails in the bush well enough and - the total cost of 4yrs of jungle pinstriping and other mother-nature inflicted body/chassis/roof damage, as well as the total cost of having water, mud, and muddy water inside the cabin to calf depth.... would cost less to repair/clean/buff-out than the cost of a decent stone chip on a D5/RRS/DS/Velar/FFRR etc.

Yes, the Defender is a compromise in some of the onroad tasks it is pressed into. Thats my compromise of choice.

I do well understand and accept the compromise of choice of those who buy a new "shiny" and don't want to get it scratched.

[scarry]

So is it officially called the Land Rover Range Rover Velar, or have they realised the error of their ways?

It looks like a somewhat matured Evoque. Talking about the Velar or many LR products these days in reference to offroading, is like talking about a diamond ring's ability to cut glass. Its just not relevant, not optimised for the task, and surely unhealthy for its true purpose.

Exactly

The people buying these types of vehicles,more than likely wouldn't give a rats about how capable the thing is,off road ability,or wading depth would be the last feature they would be concerned about.


LR have decided to move further up market with all their vehicles,that is probably where the money is.Good luck to them.


As for the family touring,go anywhere wagon,which is what the Discovery always was,those that want one will need to move off to another brand.

Maybe the new Defender will fill this void,but who knows.

[Tombie]

Why? The new D5 is more capable than the D4, has more load capacity, and better suspension...

How can that require a change of marque?

[loanrangie]

After seeing Lee's D5 in the flesh I really like it and don't understand the haters, we are well past leaf springs and drum brakes unless you drive a Ranger.

[chuck]

I would no more willingly scratch up a $60k defender and that what an optioned one was worth than my D4.

I can tell you the D4 is as good off road, far better on road, far better towing a trailer, and uses a **** load less fuel.

How do I know because my son had a fully specced MY15 Defender & we used to drive each others car.

The D5 will do all those things better than a D4.

I am sure the new defender will do all those things better than the old one.

[Arapiles]

Says who? Rivet counters?

They’re more capable than Defenders, they’re more capable than all that preceded them..

If they don’t ‘tickle your pickle’ then that’s fine... but it doesn’t make them no good offroad, nor less useful. They are in fact on many, many fronts more capable...

They’ll offroad, they can fit urban high rise parking, they handle fantastic on AND off the road, quiet, sealed, and can be loaded much more easily than a Defender through the rear door...

Slab sided as the Defender is, cargo is limited to a bit under door width, leaves gaps on the sides where wheel boxes, curves to windows etc are eat up useable space.

And where a slab side may be an advantage it’s also a disadvantage - the top sticks out as much as the bottom! So you scrape branches that may be missed by others! (There’s always a positive for each)

The only thing lacking is a Pick Up / Tray in the current line up. The Defender replacement will likely cross that off.


Agreed - the D5 is potentially a good thing, particularly if the real world fuel consumption is as quoted. BUT, as between the D4 and the D5, from a parent's point of view, the D5 loses out. Why?



smaller second and third row windows with lower seats = less light, less leg-room and less visibility, especially for kids. There's also less head-room, even for adults
can't see the corners of the bonnet
second row seats don't split individually any longer - no idea why they didn't keep that. Being able to separately fold the middle seat is really useful, but on the D5 it's just the back of the middle seat that folds down, not the seat
split tail gate - it should've been retained
boxy is actually good if you're carrying stuff


Losing the chassis rails and 400 odd kgs was a good thing, but they seem to have ditched the unique elements that distinguished the D4 and its predecessors.

The new Defender is apparently going to be based on the D5 - but perhaps it'll look something like the D4?

[1nando]

We are considering a used d4 for the mrs. If i had to buy a new family 4wd id pick the top of the range Pajero every day of the week. Its a rock solid platform, reliable, excellent price and id be saving 20k compared to a base d5 at around 70k. Id have no problem pin striping a pajero....id hate to pin stripe a d5. See my logic?

[rammypluge]

I have done a particularly significant amount of offroading over the last three years. I dont recall seing a single Range Rover, RRS, or Evoque. Possibly have been some old rangies but dont recall. Saw one Disco 3, it was reported as being a bummer on sand, heavy, sunk, and was tough to recover. Saw another one borrowed by teens from parents(?) and bogged! Seen a few Defenders.

Its one thing to justify the coin to buy a modern rangie, but another altogether to trash its resale by turning it into something no soccer mum wants to touch.

[AllTerr]

We are considering a used d4 for the mrs. If i had to buy a new family 4wd id pick the top of the range Pajero every day of the week. Its a rock solid platform, reliable, excellent price and id be saving 20k compared to a base d5 at around 70k. Id have no problem pin striping a pajero....id hate to pin stripe a d5. See my logic?
We are in the market for a new car for the Mrs. Next year as well and have decided on the RRS or Vogue, and through talking it over, neither of us will hesitate to take it in the bush. It IS a 4wd after all. It's why we buy them.

[Tombie]

Agreed - the D5 is potentially a good thing, particularly if the real world fuel consumption is as quoted. BUT, as between the D4 and the D5, from a parent's point of view, the D5 loses out. Why?



smaller second and third row windows with lower seats = less light, less leg-room and less visibility, especially for kids. There's also less head-room, even for adults
can't see the corners of the bonnet
second row seats don't split individually any longer - no idea why they didn't keep that. Being able to separately fold the middle seat is really useful, but on the D5 it's just the back of the middle seat that folds down, not the seat
split tail gate - it should've been retained
boxy is actually good if you're carrying stuff


Losing the chassis rails and 400 odd kgs was a good thing, but they seem to have ditched the unique elements that distinguished the D4 and its predecessors.

The new Defender is apparently going to be based on the D5 - but perhaps it'll look something like the D4?

-Seats are full size, more leg room... my 6’2” mate can sit in the back without issues.
-Many people can’t see corner of a D4 bonnet either, certainly not the bumper beyond it.. I’m fortunate I’m tall enough and can see a D5 bonnet corner. Most shorter people can’t see the corner of any modern vehicle.
- Seat loss is disappointing but hardly an issue.
- Split tail gate has benefits but so does a lift up - for a shopping run etc it provides shelter when loading/unloading and less reaching to get to back of middle seats
- boxy is good and at 1230l it appears to be 30l down. Until you factor in over 40l of storage throughout (a place for everything a kid wants and a parent needs)

The smaller windows = less light.. well tinted windows significantly reduce light also... what smaller windows do gain is reduced heat on occupants... and I with children at the “must be in a booster seat” age bracket they can easily see out.

9 USB ports - kids and parents dream.

[Tombie]

I have done a particularly significant amount of offroading over the last three years. I dont recall seing a single Range Rover, RRS, or Evoque. Possibly have been some old rangies but dont recall. Saw one Disco 3, it was reported as being a bummer on sand, heavy, sunk, and was tough to recover. Saw another one borrowed by teens from parents(?) and bogged! Seen a few Defenders.

Its one thing to justify the coin to buy a modern rangie, but another altogether to trash its resale by turning it into something no soccer mum wants to touch.

Again with the Soccer Mum references...

Let’s talk numbers...

D90 - optioned up ran at $60k
D4 - 7 seats Xenons etc $74k

Hardly a worry to add some pin stripes to a D4 (mine was on tracks the day after driving it home) the D90 was the same.

Who gets more upset? The wife, scratching her 90 [emoji6]

Are some stripes “trashing resale?” I seriously doubt it... and if that’s your aim you’re off the mark...

As for seeing them offroad... the only Defenders I see offroad around here - there’s 2.... yet there’s a significant number in town... yet in this region I see a lot of D3/4 and RRS out exploring...

I enjoy mine offroad so much that I’m currently installing the requirements to have it Mine Site approved so I can drive it daily for work...

[Tombie]

We are considering a used d4 for the mrs. If i had to buy a new family 4wd id pick the top of the range Pajero every day of the week. Its a rock solid platform, reliable, excellent price and id be saving 20k compared to a base d5 at around 70k. Id have no problem pin striping a pajero....id hate to pin stripe a d5. See my logic?

You didn’t find the seats like sitting on a concrete bench? Or haven’t driven long enough to find out?

Don’t buy one if you want to tow more than a 6x4...

And the current Top Mode Paj is $67k + options

[Lee Jackson]

There is always a solution you just have to find what works for you. I love the D5 it is by far the most capable off road vehicle to date. Pity I didn't wait another year for the SVX. I bought mine with full intentions of using it off road. Do i care about scratches at this early stage absolutely .... that is why i am having it wrapped in PPF. Problem Solved.

I wouldn't let pin striping stop me from enjoying the great outdoors.

Next problem I am facing is Buying Rims and Off Road Tyres.. Separate Problem but like i say their is always a solution you just have to find what works for you.

[Tombie]

Well there’s one in here... 70 odd posts on the forum and 60 of them are complaining... [emoji48]

It’s like we installed a token Toyota driver.... [emoji12][emoji56]

[1nando]

Said it once and ill say it again. If anyone is willing to back their d5 against my defender in the bush ill happily accept the challenge. After all according to this thread your d5 is more capable than anything else on the market so i should run away scared. Ill pick the track.......whem the plastic starts getting scratched we can all sit down and talk about how capable it is but how unlucky you were to scratch the panel. 🤣🤣🤣

[chuck]

And the other thing is it costs the same to fix pin stripes on any vehicle unless you are being ripped off.

Interestingly I believe the Landrover paint is harder than Toyota paint - I had a 150 Prado for a while that used to get pinstripes just looking at the bush

[tact]

We are in the market for a new car for the Mrs. Next year as well and have decided on the RRS or Vogue, and through talking it over, neither of us will hesitate to take it in the bush. It IS a 4wd after all. It's why we buy them.

Post a pic like this when ready...

129884

[chuck]

Can we take that challenge with the same level of modification as your defender.

& then add another challenge around how far we get on the same amount of fuel.

[Tombie]

Said it once and ill say it again. If anyone is willing to back their d5 against my defender in the bush ill happily accept the challenge. After all according to this thread your d5 is more capable than anything else on the market so i should run away scared. Ill pick the track.......whem the plastic starts getting scratched we can all sit down and talk about how capable it is but how unlucky you were to scratch the panel. 🤣🤣🤣

Let it also be measured on getting there, fuel used, and let’s do it in the gear of summer for good measure.

And return your Defender to std spec. [emoji6]

After all we’re talking a vehicle that the factory backs as more capable than the Defender..

Or perhaps we grab the bloke in the USA running a D4 on 35s... just to keep things on the level..

Or even pick a track with low hanging branches - well that could well stop a Defender in its tracks.

Perhaps we could do the Run from William Creek to Glendambo and onto Maralinga.. that’s by definition all offroad.. travel as fast as you feel comfortable..

Really. The Cock waving in this thread is bordering on ridiculous...

If you don’t like it. Fine. But stop rubbishing something that is capable - it’s just not your style or budget...

[Arapiles]

-Seats are full size, more leg room... my 6’2” mate can sit in the back without issues.

I don't doubt it, but I checked out a D5 against a D4 when they were in the same yard - I sat in all three rows of both cars and in the third row of the D5 your knees are definitely higher than in the D4. Which means that the seat is lower. The dealer said it as well, and reviews say the same thing. In any case, we're happy with our D4.

[1nando]

Can we take that challenge with the same level of modification as your defender.

& then add another challenge around how far we get on the same amount of fuel.My defender cost me less to build than any d5.
The Op's iasue was offraod, so considering the fact that his concern was that the d5 is inappropriate for his idea of offroad then the answer to your question is this;
Everyones touts how capable the d5 is, so ive put my noney where my mouth is; prove it, show me, come and scratch the thing. If you can hold back the tears while panels are buffering impacts then ill consider the thing capable of serious offroad.

[1nando]

Let it also be measured on getting there, fuel used, and let’s do it in the gear of summer for good measure.

And return your Defender to std spec. [emoji6]

After all we’re talking a vehicle that the factory backs as more capable than the Defender..

Or perhaps we grab the bloke in the USA running a D4 on 35s... just to keep things on the level..

Or even pick a track with low hanging branches - well that could well stop a Defender in its tracks.

Perhaps we could do the Run from William Creek to Glendambo and onto Maralinga.. that’s by definition all offroad.. travel as fast as you feel comfortable..

Really. The Cock waving in this thread is bordering on ridiculous...

If you don’t like it. Fine. But stop rubbishing something that is capable - it’s just not your style or budget...Id love to know how you come up with the defeiniton of capable in regards to the d5. On paper a lot of things read well, until its put to the test properly capable is just a word thrown around on this site.

As for fuel, let it be said; my defender cost 20k less than a base disco. So while you may out save me on fuel over many years of ownership i saved enough upfront to basically buy all the accessories for our kitchen reno. Thats a saving.

[scarry]

Id love to know how you come up with the defeiniton of capable in regards to the d5. On paper a lot of things read well, until its put to the test properly capable is just a word thrown around on this site.

As for fuel, let it be said; my defender cost 20k less than a base disco. So while you may out save me on fuel over many years of ownership i saved enough upfront to basically buy all the accessories for our kitchen reno. Thats a saving.

You forgot about resale,a well looked after Deefer will have a resale way ahead of any other LR product.....

And the D5 will be no different from any other Discovery model,particularly as it is more expensive and more upmarket than any other Discovery.The more you spend the more you lose.

And Tombie is right,lets move on.......

Off road ability is not the only feature of this model,and my thoughts as said,that many in the D5 market more than likely couldn't give a rats about extreme off road ability.LR is targeting owners of AudieQ7,BMW,Volvo,(as LR themselves have said)people that would have no interest in off road ability.maybe a trip once a year to the beach,then end up on u tube would be about it.

I can't work out why LR themselves push the extreme off road ability in their advertising of this new model,then fit it with a silly,uncommon 19" tyre size.One would think after all the publicity about the D4 tyre sizes,they would have had an option for 18's.The equivalent 18" tyre size is a good size with many options.Yes i know, maybe after market options will appear.


It will also be interesting to see what after market accessories appear for this model.Reports from ARB are they are holding off at the moment,as per their latest mag.

[trout1105]

Like many of us here I cannot afford to buy a new D5 and IF I did have that sort of money I would rather spend it making my D2 "As New" or better.
Imagine what you could do if you could afford to spend $80-$100k on a D2 [bigrolf]

[loanrangie]

If you are worried about resale value, don't buy a landrover.

[Vern]

My defender cost me less to build than any d5.
The Op's iasue was offraod, so considering the fact that his concern was that the d5 is inappropriate for his idea of offroad then the answer to your question is this;
Everyones touts how capable the d5 is, so ive put my noney where my mouth is; prove it, show me, come and scratch the thing. If you can hold back the tears while panels are buffering impacts then ill consider the thing capable of serious offroad.What the hell has scratching a car got to do with how capable it is?
Have a listen to yourself!

As tombie said, so much cock waving going on, aulro really has gone backwards in recent years, its a real shame.

[1nando]

What the hell has scratching a car got to do with how capable it is?
Have a listen to yourself!

As tombie said, so much cock waving going on, aulro really has gone backwards in recent years, its a real shame.Almost as much cock waving as claiming a 100k d5 (so called capable version) is a serious offroader! What a load of BS.

[Vern]

Almost as much cock waving as claiming a 100k d5 (so called capable version) is a serious offroader! What a load of BS.Yeah we all get your opinion on it, its starting to get tiring now.
May'be go and start a how awesome is the defender thread.
This is about the d5 anyway!

[1nando]

No the op was about how hes waiting and hoping the new defender will be a serious offroader as he is disappointed with the new d5. So yes my argument relates to the op.

[Vern]

Its about the capabilties of the d5 which it seems no one has driven and used offroad and if the new defender will be more capable or not.
Not about its not capable because no one wants to scratch it, or about old defenders and discos!

In my 11.5 years on this forum, i am verging on closing the door behind me for good, every single thread ends up in some kind of whinging whining ****ing contest that strays from topic. Its become like the mens shed!
Would be nice to see the forum make a turn around, but i just can't see that happening, no wonder why so many good users have and are leaving.
Rant over!

[Zeros]

So much passion about vehicles people don't even own, wish they owned, do own, or don't even exist yet! It's great! Vive Le difference! One things for sure...we all love Landys!

[ozscott]

Stick around Vern... it's all good. I think in the past people love the ready ability to modify and work on their own vehicles and that has become more difficult with the newer LR products but it's a great brand and great forum.

Cheers

[Vern]

Stick around Vern... it's all good. I think in the past people love the ready ability to modify and work on their own vehicles and that has become more difficult with the newer LR products but it's a great brand and great forum.

CheersIt is, and why can't these be worked on and modified too? Its a bit trickier, but can be done.
I remember when the v6 commodore came out and everyone balked at how hard the engine is going to be to work in, ie the fan belt! Turns out its easier than doing an old red motor![emoji4]

Things generally progress forward, not backwards!

[tact]

I am just going to leave this here.... and sneak out quietly... (I know - its not a disco 5.... but sometimes flung mud sticks)


2016 Land Rover Discovery Sport - Rove Lightly, Discover Diligently (http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2016-land-rover-discovery-sport-hse-lux-rove-lightly-discover-diligently/)

[ozscott]

That is hilarious. Cheers

[TB]

I am just going to leave this here.... and sneak out quietly... (I know - its not a disco 5.... but sometimes flung mud sticks)


2016 Land Rover Discovery Sport - Rove Lightly, Discover Diligently (http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2016-land-rover-discovery-sport-hse-lux-rove-lightly-discover-diligently/)

Disco Sport owner here. The situation described in that article is 100% due to using inappropriate tyres for the conditions. There’s zero that Terrain Response or 3 locked diffs can do if there’s no friction between the tyres and the ground.

[ozscott]

Did the Macan that was zipping around have mud terrains?

[Vern]

Disco Sport owner here. The situation described in that article is 100% due to using inappropriate tyres for the conditions. There’s zero that Terrain Response or 3 locked diffs can do if there’s no friction between the tyres and the ground.I was thinking that. Put those tyres on any car, even the beloved defender, and i bet it gets stuck too. They picked a bad line by the looks of it

[AllTerr]

Post a pic like this when ready...

129884
Will do... Pin striping isn't anything that a good cut and polish won't take care of... Like Tombie said. I bought a brand new F350 FX4 and had it out in the bush on just as narrow of a track the following week. $60k car in the States at the time.. If I'm going to buy an off road vehicle, then I'm gonna use it offroad. Otherwise, why not just buy a Merc or BMW or something in the price range to drive around town in looking flash?

[Lee Jackson]

I agree Kerry. But everyone is different.

For mine Couldn't give too hoots whether its capable or going to get scratched or whatever the whinging is about. Its all about having fun and getting out there, away from our everyday life to enjoy what this country has to offer.

Car Fully Wrapped picking up tomorrow.

129894

[TB]

Did the Macan that was zipping around have mud terrains?

You know full well it wouldn't have. But it's equally certain that they were different tyres – most likely wider and larger diameter – than the standard 235mm 29" Disco Sport HTs. And I'm sure you also know that sometimes just a tiny bit more footprint makes a great big difference.

Tread could also well be part of it. Did you see how the Disco Sport's wheel wells had filled up with mud? Perhaps with a different tread on the Macan it just happened not to collect the mud to the same degree.

There's just no way you can look at this one instance and declare the Land Rover drive system to be simply inferior. It is what it is: permanent FWD with a Haldex AWD unit bringing the rear axle into play as needed, two open diffs and a whole lotta traction control. My own experience with the OEM tyres was that they seriously lacked grip on dust and gravel and even not much help in sand. I also have learned a lot about how to work with the Disco Sport to get it through obstacles and out of trouble.

Last weekend I shot straight past a Triton that was on about its sixth attempt to exit Bribie beach. I'd finished re-inflating my tyres by the time it eventually caught up.

Accepting its limits – particularly related to tyres and clearance – the DS is a highly capable machine. The fact it got stuck in mud one day for one journalist tells you approximately nothing about the car.

[tact]

Disco Sport owner here. The situation described in that article is 100% due to using inappropriate tyres for the conditions. There’s zero that Terrain Response or 3 locked diffs can do if there’s no friction between the tyres and the ground.

Not posted as a criticism of the embarassing "failure to proceed" which better tyres may have addressed. (Gotta admit that being bested by a Macan with similarly inappropriate tyres is hard to take! [bigrolf] If you want to argue down that path, that is...?)

I posted more for the way a bit of mud managed to rip out the wheel arch liners and other damage to the vehicle that "...would have broken us financially had LR not paid".

Compared please to the situation in the photo below: I reversed more than 150 meters in that sloppy aftermath-of-flooding flood plain mud, out to a river bank where volunteers unloaded a few hundred kg of flood relief supplies and hand carried across the river... then drove out. Not a hair turned, no damage to the vehicle at all, and no carpets were muddied in the process either despite me jumping in and out of my vehicle several times [biggrin] )

Now some here would perhaps be tempted to argue nonsensically that a D5 most certainly would NOT have suffered any vehicle damage like the DS featured in the article. And that with wheelarch liners and other bodywork intact, replete with road tyres, could have driven circles around my Defender and then driven across the river and up the trail on the other side delivering supplies direct to the village. Saving volunteers the effort of walking the supplies across the river.

And I don't give a rats about that. I am just worried for the D5's carpets. THINK of the CARPETS! [bigwhistle]

129895

[rammypluge]

The point about pinstripes, dents, dings, scratches, modifications, drill holes, accelerated rust, etc, is that because the D5 market is not into that, it will hurt resale massively.

Whereas those things on a defender can be par for the course, and will make little or no difference to resale value.

[tact]

The point about pinstripes, dents, dings, scratches, modifications, drill holes, accelerated rust, etc, is that because the D5 market is not into that, it will hurt resale massively.

Whereas those things on a defender can be par for the course, and will make little or no difference to resale value.

Totally agree... and this is the only damage repair kit needed:129899

[TB]

The D4 had carpet. Was it subjected to this same level of outcry?

The mud which damaged the wheel arch liner of the DS was sticky as ****. It was collecting in the arches. Is that a design flaw of the car? Is that something that couldn’t happen to a Defender or a Macan?

I’d love to hear about the cost of repairing similar damage on the Porsche.

Whether due to overall geometry, tread pattern or a combination of both, it just so happened that mud was a problem for the DS that day. Insisting on spinning the wheels with arches full of **** is bound to cause damage to any vehicle with arch liners. The journalists took a random bit of bad luck and lit a fire under it to make a story. It’s not a valid criticism of the DS and it has nothing to do with the D5.

Did the D4 have arch liners?

I do love the ruggedness of the old Defender and respect it for what it is. I have already said that I suspect the upcoming Defender would be more suited to my interests than the latest Discovery is. But if I had to choose between old Defer and new Disco today? Disco for sure, and it’d be finding its way through the rough stuff.

(As it happens I’ve found a lovely 2010 D4 which will do exactly what I want for a lot less money, so this is all gonna remain hypothetical for a good while.)

[jon3950]

Whether due to overall geometry, tread pattern or a combination of both, it just so happened that mud was a problem for the DS that day. Insisting on spinning the wheels with arches full of **** is bound to cause damage to any vehicle with arch liners. The journalists took a random bit of bad luck and lit a fire under it to make a story. It’s not a valid criticism of the DS and it has nothing to do with the D5.


Or maybe the guy driving it was just a goose, took a bad line and forgot to turn DSC off. Sounds like putting it in Mud and Ruts was a bit of a revelation to him.

Who knows, who cares. You* may not like the current models, but one thing they all have is class leading off-road capability. To suggest the Macan can rung rings around the DS off-road is more a testament to the writers ignorance than the abilities of either vehicle.

*Obviously I don't mean you TB. That was a general "you".

[WhiteD3]

Looks good in blue. Still looks like a disabled taxi from the rear.

129894[/QUOTE]

[ozscott]

Come in spinner. I suspect Macan and Disco Sport would have very similar offroad disability (mud with stock tyres). Cheers

[jon3950]

Come in spinner. I suspect Macan and Disco Sport would have very similar offroad disability (mud with stock tyres). Cheers

Certainly a lot closer than that article would suggest. Let's face it, mud like that and road tyres is never going to end well. As with most things to do with driving, the nut behind the wheel has the most effect on the ability of a vehicle.

Cheers,
Jon

[Roverlord off road spares]

Thanks John, yes I know that's another reason often given. But where does that leave vehicles such as the new G Professional, Toyota 70 series and trucks for that matter? I suppose I'm not convinced. I think it's primarily a styling thing.
Maybe hikers should not be walking on 4wd tracks, then the pedestrian element goes.[bigrolf]

[scarry]

Maybe hikers should not be walking on 4wd tracks, then the pedestrian element goes.[bigrolf]

Maybe pedestrians should be looking where the **** they are going

[DI5CO]

I put getting stuck like that due to the wrong setting. I think he should have put it into grass gravel snow. How do I know? Well, I (D4) was stuck in mud, not going anywhere. 2 hours after only moving a few metres and frustration while also using maxtrax and trying to dig myself out, I had a revelation and changed terrain response settings from mud ruts to grass gravel. Guess what, the thing drove out like it was a speed bump, I couldn’t believe it! Lesson learnt, I now have Gordon’s D4 book.
Anyway, I could be wrong but who knows! Lol

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/cb7ed62c6d6a1c6123aa4510873f9159.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/7c069ad707745179c94da5bd0b2acdc4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/ad0890622c200531353a4eb4bbd008e6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/52a629c894820da69ff7783ba914371e.jpg

[Tombie]

TB... yes the D4 has liners..
I’ve had my wheel arches so full of mud I couldn’t lower the suspension!

Just had to raise it to allow it to be spun out later on.. no damage was had.

The fun part that day was I was driving on the Northern Mine site after 2 days of torrential rain and it took an hour to travel 11km, with me trying my hardest not to end up on its side in the 2mtr culverts alongside the track.

Was a great day [emoji41]

I’ve also had the Defender I owned in a similar situation, no wheel arch liners though, but it made some horrible noises breaking the mud out!

[AllTerr]

Compared please to the situation in the photo below: I reversed more than 150 meters in that sloppy aftermath-of-flooding flood plain mud, out to a river bank where volunteers unloaded a few hundred kg of flood relief supplies and hand carried across the river... then drove out. Not a hair turned, no damage to the vehicle at all, and no carpets were muddied in the process either

And I don't give a rats about that. I am just worried for the D5's carpets. THINK of the CARPETS! [bigwhistle]

129895

I hear ya on the carpets.. That's why after Wombat, I'm now turning the D2 into a Defender... (floor wise) [emoji1]

[1nando]

So many buttons in this thing..which one is for mud?

Hold on is that snow i selected?

Sh#t, its not going up, why am i still so low???

Same situation in my defender:
Lock centre diff
Lock rear diff
Lock front if needed

Hold on and see you on the other side. Sounds simple cause it is

[scarry]

here is mine after a few k's sliding in black clay,in off road height

Lots of odd noises but no damage to the liners.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/884.jpg (https://picturepush.com/public/15886336)

[scarry]

So many buttons in this thing..which one is for mud?

Hold on is that snow i selected?

Sh#t, its not going up, why am i still so low???

Same situation in my defender:
Lock centre diff
Lock rear diff
Lock front if needed

Hold on and see you on the other side. Sounds simple cause it is

Also is DSC off??

That does get a while to get used to,but eventually it is all good.

[1nando]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/885.jpg

[SBD4]

The D4 had carpet. Was it subjected to this same level of outcry?

Shhh... don't tell them about the rubber mats and the fact that mud and dirt just wipes off the leather seats. It'll spoil the show!


Whether due to overall geometry, tread pattern or a combination of both, it just so happened that mud was a problem for the DS that day. Insisting on spinning the wheels with arches full of **** is bound to cause damage to any vehicle with arch liners. The journalists took a random bit of bad luck and lit a fire under it to make a story. It’s not a valid criticism of the DS and it has nothing to do with the D5.

I would say the a contributing factor here is the fact that the Disco Sport spent most of the time as lead car meaning that it was the one picking up that top layer of sticky mud with the other cars following in its tracks. Based on where the car was, it looked very much like he was trying to have a bit of "fun" and it backfired. It's not the 1st vehicle to have mud clogging up the arches.


Did the D4 have arch liners?

Yeah it does. Just about every modern vehicle does.

[jon3950]

Little off topic. But we are considering a d4. Do you consider it a must to get proper and specific vehicle training or is it easy to pick up?

No. You know enough about driving off-road. It is worth reading up on it's systems though.

You can basically just stick it in low range and go, but by understanding how the systems work you will get more out of it. Gordon's book may be worth getting (you can borrow mine if you want - I didn't get a lot out of it) but personally I think there's enough information on here.

Really the best you can do is just go out and play with it. It's very different to a Defender. Rather than revelling in the simplicity you need to embrace the technology - they really are a very clever car. I think you'll be amazed by it's breadth of capability.

Cheers,
Jon

[DI5CO]

Well before I got my D4, I really would have liked a Deefa, but, after a couple of minor things, like I couldn't really fit in it, couldn't adjust the seat in a comfy position, kids room in the back very compromised, crap stereo, sloooooooow, manual only, and the really minor point, the safety systems were 10 generations behind anything. I changed from my D2 not only because it was getting old, but because of the safety cell wasn't as good as newer cars and I like to tour. It eats k's like I eat grain waves! It's one of the quietest and comfortable cars I've driven. Seeing there are so many head ons these days, I thought it was time to upgrade. So while I may not be able to lock my front and rear diff, I'll take that any day over a locked Deefa. Just google Defender accident and it will scare you.
At the end of the day, everything is a compromise and you get what suits you and your current lifestyle. If you can't compromise with the D5, then get your Toybotas, Bitsarmissing (Mitsubishi), etc. I would get a D5 over any of those cars.

[jon3950]

Shhh... don't tell them about the rubber mats and the fact that mud and dirt just wipes off the leather seats. It'll spoil the show!


I've got the same leather in the Defender as I did in the D4 and it's worked brilliantly in both vehicles.

It's good, solid English leather, made from cows who've spent a lifetime wandering the Yorkshire Moors. Not some namby-pamby Japanese cow who has lived a sheltered life in a barn in Hokkaido.

Seriously though, while clearly not in the league of a Defender the Disco 4 interior was suprisingly robust. Mine copped a lot of dust and mud and was drowned a couple of times too. Yet it still scrubbed up very well when I sold it.

Although the D5 interior has gone up a level or two in flashness, if you look closely it still retains a lot of the robustness the D4 had.

Cheers,
Jon

[Ancient Mariner]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/885.jpg
New improved Version:tease:

[jon3950]

I'm getting a little sick of the Defender vs Disco nonsense and the constant knocking of the current product. Whether we like it or not (and very often I don't) the world is moving on. I wonder if the internet existed in 1958 whether there would have been as much angst when the Series II was released. OMG, what have they done to the styling? The straight sides were so much better than those ridiculous curves.

I went from a D4 to a Defender. I absolutely love my Defender to bits and haven't regretted the decision for a minute. However I love it despite it's flaws. I love it's simplicity, I love the fact you actually have to drive it. Yes, it's slow, a bit uncomfortable, noisy and hot. But once you get it off the bitumen it suddenly all makes sense, it is designed to do one thing and it does that very well. Where it can go using simple mechanical systems a D4 needs sophisticated technology to match. Camping out of it is brilliant. No need to be precious about it and you don't wake up the computers every time you open a door.

I've invested a fair amount of time and money into making it a good touring vehicle and it now does that very well. I've had two trips in it now of two weeks duration and about 5000km each (and several shorter ones) and have thoroughly enjoyed the time spent behind the wheel. Plus I use it as my daily driver and even enjoy commuting in it.

Despite all this, I would say the D4 was a far more practical vehicle and required far less modification. It can pretty well match the Defender off-road, but on top of that it would just eat up the miles on a long drive. It was far more sure-footed on a gravel road - you could throw around like a big rally car (if you turn the DSC off :) ). It can seat 6 adults comfortably (the Defender can only do two) and it could also swallow a pretty substantial payload. Without doubt it is the best tow vehicle I have ever driven. Above all that though, it won't try and kill you if you do hit the scenery - I really do dread having an accident in the Defender.

If the D5 has improved on this, and I think on balance it has, then it can only be a good thing.

I absolutely get why people are so passionate about their Defenders, I'm very passionate about mine. But comparing the Defender to the D5 is pointless - there really is no comparison. They are two different vehicles designed for two different purposes in two different eras. The D5 is a modern car and the Defender is an anachronism. While I can seriously envisage keeping my Defender till the end a D5 will have a lifespan of 10-12 years max - that is simply how modern vehicles are designed. This is not a bad thing as LR are investing heavily in recycling their vehicles, it's just a different way of looking at vehicle ownership.

Both are brilliant vehicles in their own way and both should be celebrated for what they are. One a timeless classic, the other a tour de force of modern technology. Just buy the one you like.

Cheers,
Jon

[Tombie]

We did... we have both [emoji41]

And it’s not the first time we’ve had a Disco and Defender...

Need to look at the D5 again soon... So we can stop running the 90 to work...

[rammypluge]

Its about the capabilties of the d5 which it seems no one has driven and used offroad and if the new defender will be more capable or not.
Not about its not capable because no one wants to scratch it, or about old defenders and discos!
Yesterday i watched a video on utube where they compared a D5 to a GWagon, Jeep JK, an Artic DMax and a little crappy thing. The D5 was middle of the road and a long way behind the leader.

[Vern]

Yesterday i watched a video on utube where they compared a D5 to a GWagon, Jeep JK, an Artic DMax and a little crappy thing. The D5 was middle of the road and a long way behind the leader.What does that have to do with my post?

[rammypluge]

My vehicle has arch liners and i have fitted 33" tyres and gone through heaps of mud, and the arch liners are totally fine with it.

In my experience, good drive systems are either RWD, Rear Biased 4WD, or Part Time 4WD.

AWD drivetrains, whether front biased, non biased, or rear biased, and simple FWD, are all rubbish. They drive horribly and have other drawbacks as well.

[Vern]

My vehicle has arch liners and i have fitted 33" tyres and gone through heaps of mud, and the arch liners are totally fine with it.

In my experience, good drive systems are either RWD, Rear Biased 4WD, or Part Time 4WD.

AWD drivetrains, whether front biased, non biased, or rear biased, and simple FWD, are all rubbish. They drive horribly and have other drawbacks as well.So all landrovers since the mid 70's are rubbish?

[rammypluge]

I put getting stuck like that due to the wrong setting. I think he should have put it into grass gravel snow. How do I know? Well, I (D4) was stuck in mud, not going anywhere. 2 hours after only moving a few metres and frustration while also using maxtrax and trying to dig myself out, I had a revelation and changed terrain response settings from mud ruts to grass gravel. Guess what, the thing drove out like it was a speed bump, I couldn’t believe it! Lesson learnt, I now have Gordon’s D4 book.

And LR reckon normal owners couldnt handle front/centre/rear driver actuated diff locks a la GWagon etc? LR should toss the electric rubbish and make it properly capable.

[rammypluge]

So all landrovers since the mid 70's are rubbish?Non biased constant 4wd isnt rubbish, i didnt say that, its just not as good as rear biased constant 4wd, at least not in the driving.

[DI5CO]

And LR reckon normal owners couldnt handle front/centre/rear driver actuated diff locks a la GWagon etc? LR should toss the electric rubbish and make it properly capable.

I had all 4 wheels spinning. So I think even with all diffs locked i would still be there!
The different modes of the traction system is amazing and it really works.

[PAT303]

Almost as much cock waving as claiming a 100k d5 (so called capable version) is a serious offroader! What a load of BS.

Well having owned a $100,000 L322 plus two Defenders I can tell you a stock as a rock L322 will have your Defenders ticket every way from Sunday.You are in serious need of a reality check. Pat

[PAT303]

So many buttons in this thing..which one is for mud?

Hold on is that snow i selected?

Sh#t, its not going up, why am i still so low???

Same situation in my defender:
Lock centre diff
Lock rear diff
Lock front if needed

Hold on and see you on the other side. Sounds simple cause it is

Your not really showing your intelligence in a good light here mate. :eek2: Pat

[1nando]

Your not really showing your intelligence in a good light here mate. :eek2: PatJust stating how simple it is to overcome mud or any other difficult terrain in my defender mate. With elcokers front and rear and a Ashcroft centre atb the thing is pretty much unstoppable.
One lever and 2 buttons...

[ozscott]

It's getting silly yes. I could make a few comments about reality checks from going off Road in and with D3 and D4 platforms but people on here will put forward dozens of reasons why my recall is wrong or the experienced LR driver's in them couldn't drive so I won't. As for comments about Defender safety tbere is no doubt Defender is not good in a rollover. A d2 is better in a rollover or side impact but in a frontal the defender is strong so don't be worried. The D3 D4 is the safest of all in collisions and very strong. I assume D5 will be better again as it's lighter and greater use of high tensile steel. Anyone drilled a Deefer A pillar to fit a snorkel then used the same type of drill bit for a D3? It's not pretty. The d3 uses high tensile steel in the pillar...very hard to drill. The defender uses cheese.

Cheers

[scarry]

And LR reckon normal owners couldnt handle front/centre/rear driver actuated diff locks a la GWagon etc? LR should toss the electric rubbish and make it properly capable.

:zzz::zzz::Rolling:

Dreaming aren't we...........

And getting way way off topic.

It is the electronics that makes them super capable.

I have had both

Enough said,time to move on

[PerthDisco]

So I saw the Velar and D5 yesterday at the Perth Boat Show. First time ever up close. Velar reminded me of the ZZ Top Eliminator car with very very slim window line. Also like a Chrysler 300. I've driven a 300 and it is hard to rest your elbow on the window sill it is so high. Wonder if these are the same. Both are almost identical from the front like blown glass smoothness. The lack of glass on the D5 was similarly surprising (and saddening).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/895.jpg

[DiscoMick]

Had a good sticky at a D5 today and I like it.
Obviously it's not the same as a Defender like mine, but I still like it. The D5 has a wider range of capabilities than the Defender, which is more narrowly focussed. I doubt if I could get 12 bags of goat poo in the back of a D5.
The new Defender will have to combine the versatility of the D5 with the off road capabilities of the Defender. If LR achieves that, it will be awesome.

[Tombie]

Had a good sticky at a D5 today and I like it.
Obviously it's not the same as a Defender like mine, but I still like it. The D5 has a wider range of capabilities than the Defender, which is more narrowly focussed. I doubt if I could get 12 bags of goat poo in the back of a D5.
The new Defender will have to combine the versatility of the D5 with the off road capabilities of the Defender. If LR achieves that, it will be awesome.

One of the most sensible posts in recent time on this thread...

[SimmAus]

If it can't carry 12 bags of goat poo, is it "really" a LR?

Back onto topic header: I agreed at first, then I drove a D5 around the course at Solihull, the car is very capable. It is growing on me.
I'm also happy to see the SVX version, which at least is going in the right direction (I personally would've liked to see the V8 diesel, and larger fuel tanks for touring).
The new defender will be very different to the old (no doubt the AULRO server will melt down then).
Things change, and generally for the better, but not to everyone's liking.
Cheers

[Tombie]

I don’t know about Goat Poo but my D4 has had 20 bags of concrete mix in the back without a problem (well GVM maybe)...

It dropped lower and lower as we loaded it and the bloke from Mitre 10 was laughing “can’t carry much can it”

I smiled, closed the tailgate and started the engine...

The look on the guys face as it has risen back to ride height was priceless..

[scarry]

And another bit of good news,looks like aftermarket 18" rims will be available in the very near future for the D5.

Now we just need a few other after market accessories to appear,,bars,cargo barriers,rock sliders,etc😉

[Zeros]

I've also had a good walk around the D5 ...and the Velar.

If I wanted a luxury 4x4 sports wagon and I had the money I'd buy the Velar over a D5. It looks better, it's more technologically advanced and it is just as capable off road. I think the D5 is trying to be all things to all people, which simply isn't possible.

Personally I've always thought the D4 was too luxurious, but compared to the D5, the D4 looks decidedly pragmatic. Hence I understand the disappointment of many in the D4 fraternity. IMHO Discovery no longer fills the gap between Defender and Range Rover. It is a virtual Range Rover and will take sales from RRS. but not as many as Velar.

If the next Defender is anything like a more affordable G Professional Wagon I'll be excited and that means I agree with the OP, "disappointed in D5, waiting for Defender". But even then if I wanted a luxury wagon I'd choose the Velar.

[PAT303]

Just stating how simple it is to overcome mud or any other difficult terrain in my defender mate. With elcokers front and rear and a Ashcroft centre atb the thing is pretty much unstoppable.
One lever and 2 buttons...

Actually looking at my post today I feel it was uncalled for,I apologise for it. Pat

[rammypluge]

At the end of the day each person wants their own particular mix of attributes from a vehicle. If you can find a vehicle that fits those perfectly, or well, or near enough, then thats good for you. Its understandable that a proportion of people may not.

Large companies pay for social media analysis, so if a large body of people are complimenting, or criticising, particular attributes in vehicles, it should get back to headquarters, and may influence future vehicles. We do have power here. We should voice our thoughts, both compliments and criticisms.

Critical minds and critical thinking are what create the best designs, it drives the challenging process of making better things.

[scarry]

I've also had a good walk around the D5 ...and the Velar.

If I wanted a luxury 4x4 sports wagon and I had the money I'd buy the Velar over a D5. It looks better, it's more technologically advanced and it is just as capable off road. I think the D5 is trying to be all things to all people, which simply isn't possible.

Personally I've always thought the D4 was too luxurious, but compared to the D5, the D4 looks decidedly pragmatic. Hence I understand the disappointment of many in the D4 fraternity. IMHO Discovery no longer fills the gap between Defender and Range Rover. It is a virtual Range Rover and will take sales from RRS. but not as many as Velar.

If the next Defender is anything like a more affordable G Professional Wagon I'll be excited and that means I agree with the OP, "disappointed in D5, waiting for Defender". But even then if I wanted a luxury wagon I'd choose the Velar.

Single speed TC so i wouldn't think so.
Review on 'Drive' also states no locking diffs,whether that is correct,who knows.
Space saver spare is interesting.

[Tombie]

Single speed TC so i wouldn't think so.
Review on 'Drive' also states no locking diffs,whether that is correct,who knows.
Space saver spare is interesting.

Just built one!

With Dual range TC, Locking Diff and Full Size Spare..

[emoji41]

Turned out damn pricey!!!

[Zeros]

... the tests I've seen show they're pretty similar off road and given they're 99% focussed on being on road machines and most won't take either Velar or D5 off road, it doesn't really matter. The auto Amarok is 8 speed and single range and does pretty well.

Just like we rarely see RR off-road, in truth I reckon we will rarely see D5 off road. I'm sure many will disagree but as everyone also says the next Defender will really be the next D4.

So I'd still choose a Velar over a D5 as a luxury SUV. And I still agree with the OP.

[Zeros]

Just built one!

With Dual range TC, Locking Diff and Full Size Spare..

[emoji41]

Turned out damn pricey!!!

Indeed! ...and even a D5 with the basics = not much change from 100K. ..,More reason I reckon why fewer will actually go off road.

The G Professional Wagon is starting to look like a good deal. If you want a more serious off roader, why buy a Disco 5?

Hope next Defender is more affordable!

[scarry]

Just built one!

With Dual range TC, Locking Diff and Full Size Spare..

[emoji41]

Turned out damn pricey!!!

Really??

Two different reviews say otherwise,maybe it can be optioned up.

Yes the prices are way over the top,but it is targeting that market.

The around town market that wouldn't need a 2speed TC or a full sized spare anyway[tonguewink]

[Zeros]

Really??

Two different reviews say otherwise,maybe it can be optioned up.

Yes the prices are way over the top,but it is targeting that market.

....It's the only market Land Rover are targeting 😳🤑

[scarry]

Just built one!

With Dual range TC, Locking Diff and Full Size Spare..

[emoji41]

Turned out damn pricey!!!

Cant see that anywhere in the Aus spec sheets??

Unless i need a trip to specsavers.[bigwhistle]

E diff,and different spares are options.So is EAS on some models.

Geez it has a lot of options,some of those are standard on garden variety vehicles costing less than $40K.[bighmmm]

[loanrangie]

After watching 2 Amaroks drag their low arses up bush tracks and overheat the trans , not in the same league.

[AllTerr]

After watching 2 Amaroks drag their low arses up bush tracks and overheat the trans , not in the same league.
Was just about to say that. I was there too and remember having to stop every 20 minutes to wait for the VW gearboxes to cool.....

[AllTerr]

Indeed! ...and even a D5 with the basics = not much change from 100K. ..,More reason I reckon why fewer will actually go off road.

The G Professional Wagon is starting to look like a good deal. If you want a more serious off roader, why buy a Disco 5?

Hope next Defender is more affordable!
I'm still wondering why you think the D5 is "not a serious offroader" or "not as capable" as other cars when it has been stated here numerous times by numerous people that it is?

[ozscott]

Look at this for perspective. My mate in Germany just sent me a pic of the Geländewagen G650 Maybach....$450,000 Euro in Germany...even for the V12 that is huge coin especially in its country of origin...so D5 looks like a Defender in comparison cost wise!

Cheers

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/940.jpg

[Tombie]

So........

If we take the statement “wouldn’t want to scratch $100k of vehicle off road” out of the equation....

People would take a new D5 offroad?

I certainly would, regardless of price, because that’s what I would buy it for!

[scarry]

After watching 2 Amaroks drag their low arses up bush tracks and overheat the trans , not in the same league.

Anyone who thinks a vehicle without a 2 speed TC is a highly capable 4X4,is dreaming.

And as far as i can see the RR Velare has a single speed TC.

[scarry]

So........

If we take the statement “wouldn’t want to scratch $100k of vehicle off road” out of the equation....

People would take a new D5 offroad?

I certainly would, regardless of price, because that’s what I would buy it for!

Not on the OEM tyres i wouldn't...

[1nando]

Agree with both of scarry's points. Tyres are paramount to a 4wd's capability. It gives one the ability to cater pressures to different terrains and the confidence to attack tough terrain without fear of/or a very unlikely chance of punctures.
I remeber watching one of Stefans youtube vids where he couldn't climb a massive dune, he was struggling. If im not mistaken he had to drop the pressures below or around 10psi. You would not be able to do that with 20 inch rims and low prifile tyres.

[Zeros]

Yes without dual range transfer case Velar is less capable than D5 with dual range, however it still has rear locking diff, terrain resonse 2, 8 speed gearbox, etc. which is enough for 99% of the market for an urban focussed SUV - which realistically will be the majority market for D5 too.

My personal perspective is that:

1. If I wanted a new HD 4x4 wagon now, I wouldn't choose a D5, I'd wait for new Defender or get a mortgage and buy a G Professional Wagon.

2. If I wanted a new SUV now, I wouldn't choose a D5, I'd choose a Velar. Because, it's sexier, has dual everything else including touch screens and if that's the type of vehicle I wanted it would be spending 99% of its time on road.

The D5 has enticed me to look because I like Land Rovers. The D5 is obviously very capable, but to me it's really crossed the line and become too luxurious to be a bush vehicle, it's too Range Rover-like and it's shape is not as practical for load carrying or visibility as the D4 was. The D5 is certainly a technologically advanced and capable 4x4, but I wouldn't take one out bush for extended periods.

If money were no option and I had $100,000 to spend right now, I'd buy a new G Professional Wagon (or a second hand G350 with under 50,000km on the clock for under $100,000). ...I still wouldn't choose a D5.

Obviously this is simply my personal preference and others might love the D5. ...I'll look forward to seeing you out bush or on the road and I'll certainly wave if you will...

[TB]

Not on the OEM tyres i wouldn't...

How many D4’s went properly off road on the OEM tyres? So many AULRO threads about alternatives. This is hardly a reason to be critical of the D5 compared to the D4.

[Zeros]

How many D4’s went properly off road on the OEM tyres? So many AULRO threads about alternatives. This is hardly a reason to be critical of the D5 compared to the D4.

The majority of drivers who use their vehicles off road change their tyres from OEM. Changing wheel size is another matter. Vehicles with low profile tyres and large diameter wheels are clearly primarily aimed at on-road majority use by manufacturers. But having said that, there are very few 4x4s that don't require some form of modification to become capable and durable off road. If wheels and tyres is all you change, it's no big deal.

[scarry]

How many D4’s went properly off road on the OEM tyres? So many AULRO threads about alternatives. This is hardly a reason to be critical of the D5 compared to the D4.

Not being critical at all,just a mod that needs to be done for any off road work or remote area travel.The vehicle is not ready for this type of work without the mod.

As said,very few vehicles have OEM tyres suitable for off road use.

LR products are actually one of the few vehicles that have OEM suspension that is suitable for off road work,the Discovery 3/4/5 is a good example.

In fact,for my needs,i also need a bar,cargo barrier,rack and dual battery system.

If these aren't available for the D5,there won't be one in our driveway.

And for those that go on about bars,i hit a roo very hard last week,it would have been a show stopper if it wasn't for the bar,which is now very slightly bent.

[rammypluge]

Was just about to say that. I was there too and remember having to stop every 20 minutes to wait for the VW gearboxes to cool.....Somehow i have never overheated mine despite doing heaps of serious 4wding including heaps of soft sand. But for sure i havent towed a camper trailer through the high country, and never would.

With a few basic mods done the right way the Amarok becomes very capable offroad, mine beats a 2.5" lifted patrol with 33" tyres basically all the time, and creams defenders, as long as neither have aftermarket diff locks fitted.

However, the lack of adequate low ratios particularly in reverse coupled with ridiculous reverse torque limiting (until you tune it out), are significant annoyances.

[rammypluge]

Agree with both of scarry's points. Tyres are paramount to a 4wd's capability. It gives one the ability to cater pressures to different terrains and the confidence to attack tough terrain without fear of/or a very unlikely chance of punctures.
I remeber watching one of Stefans youtube vids where he couldn't climb a massive dune, he was struggling. If im not mistaken he had to drop the pressures below or around 10psi. You would not be able to do that with 20 inch rims and low prifile tyres.If you cant get near at least 8" of tyre sidewall height on a vehicle, you just cant take it seriously as a serious offroad vehicle. The rims and tyres will get too damaged making it unreliable, a hassle and expensive.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/946.jpg

[TB]

Not being critical at all

In context of this discussion, that is not at all apparent from your post :)

But of course I agree with you about the importance of tyres and the unsuitability of most OEM tyres for off-road use - as in my earlier comments about the Discovery Sport and the report that it was stuck and damaged in some mud.

The availability of additional mods for the D5 is totally a fair question. The way it’s designed and built makes it harder to customise than the D4, and for many reasons canvassed in this thread it’s possible that a smaller fraction of D5 buyers will be interested in mods anyway. So being harder and perhaps less desired... could make it less than viable.

[ozscott]

I am not at all a fan of low profile tyres but anything at or over 7 inches is excellent. You don't need 8. I have never had a blowout and have done a lot of offroading at GVM. Likewise i have towed over 2 tonn in fine powdery sand and aired down to 12 and never had a problem. Cheers

[tact]

I am not at all a fan of low profile tyres but anything at or over 7 inches is excellent. You don't need 8. I have never had a blowout and have done a lot of offroading at GVM. Likewise i have towed over 2 tonn in fine powdery sand and aired down to 12 and never had a problem. Cheers

The stock tyre late model defenders come with (235/85R16) deliver just under 8” of sidewall. The 255/85R16 rubber I run now (fit on stock Boost Alloys and don’t rub anywhere on my 110 DCPU) deliver 8.5” of sidewall.

[ozscott]

Yes but my point is you certainly don't need 8 inches or sidewall to achieve reliable and excellent off-road performance. I run 245/75/16 (7.2)

Cheers

[PAT303]

Was just about to say that. I was there too and remember having to stop every 20 minutes to wait for the VW gearboxes to cool.....

Well I've had that same experience with a D2,Patrol,LC numerous Prado etc etc,but this being a D5 bashing thread we won't let facts enter the debate. Pat

[ozscott]

Wow never heard or seen a d2 auto get got even in deep sand. How did that happen Pat?

Cheers

[tact]

Yes but my point is you certainly don't need 8 inches or sidewall to achieve reliable and excellent off-road performance. I run 245/75/16 (7.2)

Cheers

No argument there. 7" is better than 2" (as the actress said to the Bishop)

Wonder what size tyre is the largest (diameter or rolling radius) that can be fitted to the D5?
a.) legally, simply, no mods at all
b.) with mods but no cutting, shunting, major engineering work

Am pretty sure that, like in Malaysia, there are plenty of tracks in Oz that are rated "Go home unless you have minimum 33"/35"/37" wheels". No matter how much more "capable" the supporters preach - a D5 isn't going anywhere if its bellied out.

(Not a "mine's bigger than yours" play: As stated above I am on 255/85R16 rubber, thats about 33", and no mods at all needed - no matter how "capable" I declare my Defender its also going nowhere bellied out).

[Ean Austral]

QUOTE=ozscott;2722997]Wow never heard or seen a d2 auto get got even in deep sand. How did that happen Pat?

Cheers[/QUOTE]

My 5 speed D2 had the gearbox temp light come on whilst on the Canning Stock Route after a few hours of deep sand and mud driving. Never seen it before that , and it never happened again. I had the stop and check the owners manual to see what the light was for .From memory we were well past the half way mark when it happened.


I doubt the D5 even has a warning seeing as most think its only a school bus. [bigrolf]

Cheers Ean

[scarry]

Wow never heard or seen a d2 auto get got even in deep sand. How did that happen Pat?

Cheers

Seen my old D2 auto overtemp light on,as the manual says,put vehicle in neutral until light goes off then proceed.Easy fix.

Mine happened while stuck in very soft sand,ambient around 40 degrees.

Some Paj models won't proceed at all,with the auto temp overheat light on,not a bad idea particularly on the beach with a rising tide😩

[ozscott]

Wow...glad I have a manual (with stock trans cooler) although my D1 auto never had that problem nor does my mates d2 auto v8.

Cheers

[scarry]

No argument there. 7" is better than 2" (as the actress said to the Bishop)

Wonder what size tyre is the largest (diameter or rolling radius) that can be fitted to the D5?
a.) legally, simply, no mods at all
b.) with mods but no cutting, shunting, major engineering work

Am pretty sure that, like in Malaysia, there are plenty of tracks in Oz that are rated "Go home unless you have minimum 33"/35"/37" wheels". No matter how much more "capable" the supporters preach - a D5 isn't going anywhere if its bellied out.

(Not a "mine's bigger than yours" play: As stated above I am on 255/85R16 rubber, thats about 33", and no mods at all needed - no matter how "capable" I declare my Defender its also going nowhere bellied out).

The OEM tyre size on the D5 has a higher side wall than the OEM D4 size on the same size rim.

[tact]

The OEM tyre size on the D5 has a higher side wall than the OEM D4 size on the same size rim.
What are the OEM tyre sizes available on the D5 (I did a google search last night, got a lot of other specs but not the tyre options).

[trout1105]

Lets face it I doubt that there are any new 4WD's on the market that are 100% equipped for hard core touring or extreme off road work available and All of them would require some modifications to make them suitable for that sort of role.
Even though the new D5 looks far too "Pretty" to go bush bashing in and any panel damage would become quite an expensive issue the truck itself is more advanced than any of the previous Discoveries and the basic upgrades like Bullbar, winch, rear draws etc. etc. will eventually become available So like it's predecessors the D3 and D4 that were also considered to be too "Pretty" I am quietly confident that we will eventually see these kitted out as hard core offroaders.
The cost of these are way above my pay grade But IF I did have the spare quids I would be seriously be looking at these after the dust settles and all the different models have been released.

[tact]

Found a resource (non-LR so perhaps not authoritative) for available tyre sizes on D5:
255/60R19
235/65R19
255/55R20
275/45ZR21

They are all around 31" OD. Not bad! Sidewalls are all somewhere between 4" and 6"

[Zeros]

Lets face it I doubt that there are any new 4WD's on the market that are 100% equipped for hard core touring or extreme off road work available and All of them would require some modifications to make them suitable for that sort of role.

....G Professional Wagon is the only one.


Even though the new D5 looks far too "Pretty" to go bush bashing in and any panel damage would become quite an expensive issue the truck itself is more advanced than any of the previous Discoveries and the basic upgrades like Bullbar, winch, rear draws etc. etc. will eventually become available So like it's predecessors the D3 and D4 that were also considered to be too "Pretty" I am quietly confident that we will eventually see these kitted out as hard core offroaders.
The cost of these are way above my pay grade But IF I did have the spare quids I would be seriously be looking at these after the dust settles and all the different models have been released.

...Yeah true, in 3 or 4 years perhaps, but next Defender will be here by then.

[Zeros]

I doubt the D5 even has a warning seeing as most think its only a school bus. [bigrolf] Cheers Ean

Not many have a gearbox temp gauge. ...Amarok doesn't even have an engine temp gauge! 😳

[Vern]

Not many have a gearbox temp gauge. ...Amarok doesn't even have an engine temp gauge! [emoji15]A lot don't have an engine temp guage. Who looks at guages anyway[emoji6]

[Tombie]

Not many have a gearbox temp gauge. ...Amarok doesn't even have an engine temp gauge! [emoji15]

Hardly need a temp gauge on a trans - the sensor should warn before damage point...

And Yes it (the Rok) does...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/987.jpg

[scarry]

Not many have a gearbox temp gauge. ...Amarok doesn't even have an engine temp gauge! 😳

Some Colorado models have a temp gauge for the auto.

Many engine coolant temp gauges are basically useless as they are electronically controlled,D2 being a good example.Once the gauge is in or close to the red,the engine is shagged.

[Zeros]

And Yes it (the Rok) does...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/987.jpg

Must have changed...the first Roks didn't.

[Tombie]

Hmm... been doing some reading (and a bit of laughing)...

The “GProfessional” wagon..

30.5” tyres
230mm ground clearance
600mm fording depth
23deg ramp over
1765mm width (26mm narrower than a Defender)
3,140kg tow capacity with 140kg Ball weight..
400nm engine with 5 speed...

D5...

31” tyres
27.5deg ramp over
284mm ground clearance
900mm wading depth
2073mm wide (Mirrors folded)
3,500kg towing with 350kg ball
430/500/600nm engine choices with 8 speed transmission


So... greater fording,
better transmission,
better engine options (and all more powerful),
Better ramp over,
Better clearance,
Higher towing capacity, and higher ball weight
Larger tyres (marginal [emoji6])
Fully Active CDL and Rear locker
A bit wider (and larger cargo area)

Seems the “Professional” is rather lacking [emoji56]
(And there’s several Army mechs that are sick of fixing the damn things!)

[Tombie]

Must have changed...the first Roks didn't.

The one I nearly purchased did... the neighbours does, it was only one variant, and they changed that shortly thereafter. And there was an aftermarket file write to correct it.

Remember though it’s really no different to any current manufacturers “normalised” gauge. Which goes from OK to Hot in a heartbeat...

[Zeros]

The one I nearly purchased did... the neighbours does, it was only one variant, and they changed that shortly thereafter. And there was an aftermarket file write to correct it.

Remember though it’s really no different to any current manufacturers “normalised” gauge. Which goes from OK to Hot in a heartbeat...

The base model I owned briefly certainly didn't have a temp guage and it didn't have a digital readout either, so no file to update possible.

I sold the vehicle not long after and bought a Defender, mainly due to poor rear visibility, soft panels, significant engine clatter and boring to drive! [bigwhistle] . Hopefully the newer models are better.

Love my Defender! [smilebigeye]

Cheers

[PAT303]

Wow never heard or seen a d2 auto get got even in deep sand. How did that happen Pat?

Cheers

I've only experienced it once driving in soft dirt but it was enough to boil the fliud. Pat

[PAT303]

Hmm... been doing some reading (and a bit of laughing)...

The “GProfessional” wagon..

30.5” tyres
230mm ground clearance
600mm fording depth
23deg ramp over
1765mm width (26mm narrower than a Defender)
3,140kg tow capacity with 140kg Ball weight..
400nm engine with 5 speed...

D5...

31” tyres
27.5deg ramp over
284mm ground clearance
900mm wading depth
2073mm wide (Mirrors folded)
3,500kg towing with 350kg ball
430/500/600nm engine choices with 8 speed transmission


So... greater fording,
better transmission,
better engine options (and all more powerful),
Better ramp over,
Better clearance,
Higher towing capacity, and higher ball weight
Larger tyres (marginal [emoji6])
Fully Active CDL and Rear locker
A bit wider (and larger cargo area)

Seems the “Professional” is rather lacking [emoji56]
(And there’s several Army mechs that are sick of fixing the damn things!)
Tombie,don't discredit the knockers with facts,this is your last warning Pat

[ozscott]

Wonder what wheel travel figures for both are. Probably isnt too much in it. Cheers

[Zeros]

It would be great to see a GP v D5 comparo.

[SBD4]

Found a resource (non-LR so perhaps not authoritative) for available tyre sizes on D5:
255/60R19
235/65R19
255/55R20
275/45ZR21

They are all around 31" OD. Not bad! Sidewalls are all somewhere between 4" and 6"
The SVX comes with 275/55R20 815mm or 32" in the old measurements. I expect the standard D5 could take that size too.

[rammypluge]

It would be great to see a GP v D5 comparo.I think there already is on utube.

[rammypluge]

What's the best 4x4? | New Land Rover Discovery vs Jeep, Toyota, Isuzu, Mercedes, Dacia | Autocar - YouTube (https://youtu.be/t5nPt6cHIe8)

[rammypluge]

My impression is that some modern vehicles have 'calculated' over temp warnings, its theoretical rather than actual.

[ramblingboy42]

... something wrong with your eyes Zeros.

which panel do you think is similar?

[rammypluge]

The “GProfessional” wagon..
Seems the “Professional” is rather lacking [emoji56]
(And there’s several Army mechs that are sick of fixing the damn things!)
I cant get excited about a GP either, but the aus army ones appear to have significantly more ground clearance and bigger tyres.

[Zeros]

I think there already is on utube.

Thanks Rammypluge, not a bad test. D5 did pretty well. But the G looked to be better than D5 on all tests. Not as comfortable suspension as D5, but more robust, better clearance, better wheel travel and departure/ramp over angles.

Hopefully we'll see more comparos and looking forward to a three way comparison with next Defender.

[ozscott]

He could have pushed that G a lot quicker than what he did. It could have taken the hammering just as the Wrangler did. Very poor testing. The rock crawl was a doddle. Where were the uphill axle twisters.

Cheers

[TB]

I watched that video, and in the sense that it was comparing OEM vehicles... it was sorta fair enough. However...

They stopped the rock crawl when they thought they might bottom out. Being a stock car, it was only in standard “off road” height. There’s a whole lot more ground clearance available if you do happen to get yourself turtled or if you install something like LLAMS - which we all do.

The race around the track is something that’s very contrary to the way that LR vehicles are generally designed. We are encouraged to go “as slow as it takes, only as fast as is necessary”. So not having the fastest time there means nothing to me.

And once again... OEM wheels and tyres are so insufficient off-road. LR really ought to offer decent wheel and tyre combo as part of their “capability pack”. That would make these comparisons much more reasonable.

[1nando]

I found this video on youtube. Now some of you will say that the bloke driving it is doing something wrong etc. Not using the car settings correctly etc.
That bloke could drive my defender, id show him how to lock the center diff, and engage the front or rear locker if needed and he'd drive everything with his eyes closed. Only 3 choices in my defender; center diff lock and front and rear diff lock...no settings or dials just 1 lever and 2 buttons. A capable offroader also has an ace up its sleeve, the ability to adjust tyre pressures to terrain.
The biggest let down on the d5 are tyres. No matter how capable on paper the tyres will always let it down.

land rover discovery 5 2018 off road - YouTube (https://youtu.be/H3VIuk8MUI0)

[TB]

Oh you have an automatic in your Defer? [tonguewink]

Driver skill plays a part. Knowing the vehicle plays a part. And lowering your damn tyre pressures plays a big part too.

[1nando]

Oh you have an automatic in your Defer? [tonguewink]

Driver skill plays a part. Knowing the vehicle plays a part. And lowering your damn tyre pressures plays a big part too.I agree with everything your saying. I think if it had proper offroad tyres the driver would off been able to drive all those obstacles with no issue.

[rammypluge]

Looks like its struggling.

It seems when the D3/4/5 are put into offroad height there isnt much droop travel left, or the raising in conjunction with the swaybars are stopping droop.

During hillclimbing any pause in drive to a wheel(s) will greatly increase the risk of a loss in momentum. Thats another reason why diff locks are so good.


Yes, my Amarok is modified, but can a D5 be brought to this level? Since this video was taken i have further improved my front suspension, and hence traction....
Rhett's Automotive, Steep hill climb Loveday 4x4 Adventure Park, Amarok Offroad - YouTube (https://youtu.be/nA5v5fS9vKc)

[1nando]

Looks like its struggling.

It seems when the D3/4/5 are put into offroad height there isnt much droop travel left, or the raising in conjunction with the swaybars are stopping droop.

During hillclimbing any pause in drive to a wheel(s) will greatly increase the risk of a loss in momentum. Thats another reason why diff locks are so good.


Yes, my Amarok is modified, but can a D5 be brought to this level? Since this video was taken i have further improved my front suspension, and hence traction....
Rhett's Automotive, Steep hill climb Loveday 4x4 Adventure Park, Amarok Offroad - YouTube (https://youtu.be/nA5v5fS9vKc)Nice video [emoji6]

[ozscott]

Rammy that's a nicely sorted rear suspension mate. Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Top Gear magazine recently ran a eight vehicle SUV comparison in which the D5 was the best off road and versatile but not the best on road. Don't have a link, sorry.

[rammypluge]

Top Gear magazine recently ran a eight vehicle SUV comparison in which the D5 was the best off road and versatile but not the best on road. Don't have a link, sorry.Nationalism?

[rammypluge]

My take on the D5 comparison test i posted...

Ignoring the Duster completely, on the rocks, the D5 came last, and kerbed a rim.

On the hillclimb, the D5 lifted front wheels the most, which is bad. If the suspension was lowered it would lift them less, but would then be more prone to bottoming out the alloy chassis. Score last or near the bottom of the pack.

Over rough ground it was middle of the pack.

I reckon a RRC would do better than the best, the Jeep JK.

So things for LR have fallen a long way.

[loanrangie]

Not exactly an apple V apple test was it, the D-max was modified, the Duster was a waste of time, the G will never go offroad and the Wrangler is a dinosaur.
The D5 may not have ranked well but i know what i would drive, if it came down to price it would be the Wrangler hands down and i would live with the faults - just like a Defender.

[Tombie]

Except the wrangler even in LWB has about as much storage as a Barina!

[loanrangie]

Except the wrangler even in LWB has about as much storage as a Barina!

True.

[1nando]

True.The issue i have with the jeeps is payload and jeeps very poor customer service. If they ticked those 2 boxes i would give it more serious thought when buying a serious 4x4.
The way i see it and considering the OP i think discovery lost its offorad legitimacy with the out going d4. The d4 will probably become the platform for the new defender.

[Tombie]

That wouldn’t be a bad thing..
My D4 has proven very robust.

[ozscott]

Wrangler allows a cheese sandwich in the rear once adults occupy all seats... and towing ability also very poor.

Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Nationalism?
It was the May 2017 issue. I found it in the local library.
I thought it was a bit surprising as the D5 was the only real 4WD in the field.
The comparative categories were: Handling, speed, interiors, desirability, off-road, practicality.
The magazine said the D5 was 'the best 4x4 by far' and 'mighty off-road' while the Bentley was 'a mud-plugger inside'. I didn't even know Bentley made a SUV, so there you go.
Results:
1. Bentley Bentayga
2. Audi SQ7
3. Alfa Romeo Stelvio
4. Land Rover Discovery
5. Jaguar F-Pace
6. Skoda Kodiaq
7. Dacia Duster
8. Peugeot 3008

[rammypluge]

The Wrangler loses me with its cramped and juvenile interior before i could even start to consider it (same goes for outgoing defender). I am 6'5" though.

There is no reason why something much better couldnt be done, even considering the slim profit margins, they just need some inspired people.

[rammypluge]

It was the May 2017 issue. I found it in the local library.
I thought it was a bit surprising as the D5 was the only real 4WD in the field.
The comparative categories were: Handling, speed, interiors, desirability, off-road, practicality.
The magazine said the D5 was 'the best 4x4 by far' and 'mighty off-road' while the Bentley was 'a mud-plugger inside'. I didn't even know Bentley made a SUV, so there you go.
Results:
1. Bentley Bentayga
2. Audi SQ7
3. Alfa Romeo Stelvio
4. Land Rover Discovery
5. Jaguar F-Pace
6. Skoda Kodiaq
7. Dacia Duster
8. Peugeot 3008

I dont think there were any real 4wd's in the field. Europe is so devoid of offroading that they think offroading is towing a trailer over wet grass.

[loanrangie]

I dont think there were any real 4wd's in the field. Europe is so devoid of offroading that they think offroading is towing a trailer over wet grass.
UK maybe but eastern Europe and Russia there is lots of off roading.

[jethro]

Just got back from England , where my wife and I attended one of the Landrover shows which was great ! <br>
On the way back to our car after the show, parked beside our car was a brand new Discovery 5 SE.and a gentleman hopping into it when we asked if we could take a look at it and he happily abliged. <br>
We were both very impressed with the d5 and his explaining to us about the vehicle which lasted nearly an hour, at the end of the discussion we thanked him then he said to us ,"you may not be aware but I am part of the design team for Landrover in Gaydon England";<br>
Being a Defender and Discovery fan , I asked about the up coming Defender .<br>
He assured us that people will be very impressed with coming Defender and said it is very close to one of the later concept Defenders being presented on internet at present.<br>
He also let us know the team was well aware of the issues with the d5 rear end.<br>
The updated Discovery5 in the years to come is going to be very interesting!<br>
He was one of many terrific people associated with Landrover we met at the show we did not plan to meet!

[DeanoH]

.................................. i think discovery lost its offorad legitimacy with the out going d4.

Surely you mean D2 ? The last offroad Disco with real suspension travel and tyres that actually have a sidewall :)

Interesting that a standard RRC with its open diffs and superb suspension would have given the lot of them a real good run for their money. Perhaps cup holders and ion generators are more important than native 4WD capability in todays market.

Deano :)

[Zeros]

Just got back from England , where my wife and I attended one of the Landrover shows which was great !
On the way back to our car after the show, parked beside our car was a brand new Discovery 5 SE.and a gentleman hopping into it when we asked if we could take a look at it and he happily abliged.
We were both very impressed with the d5 and his explaining to us about the vehicle which lasted nearly an hour, at the end of the discussion we thanked him then he said to us ,"you may not be aware but I am part of the design team for Landrover in Gaydon England";
Being a Defender and Discovery fan , I asked about the up coming Defender .
He assured us that people will be very impressed with coming Defender and said it is very close to one of the later concept Defenders being presented on internet at present.
He also let us know the team was well aware of the issues with the d5 rear end.
The udated Discovery5 in the years to come is going to be very interesting!
He was one of many terrific people associated with Landrover we met at the show we did not plan to meet!

Fascinating. Cheers Jethro.

[1nando]

Surely you mean D2 ? The last offroad Disco with real suspension travel and tyres that actually have a sidewall :)

Interesting that a standard RRC with its open diffs and superb suspension would have given the lot of them a real good run for their money. Perhaps cup holders and ion generators are more important than native 4WD capability in todays market.

Deano :)Yeah...i do agree with that point. Id love to see a d4 vs a d5 offroad comparison. Earlier in this thread someone claimed that LR improved offroad capability when they went away from live axles.......the hardest offroad that blokes done is a dirt track to a winery...[emoji1]

I feel the d4 has a better body shape and lends itself to bolting protective gear on better than a d5. Im hoping to get a nice d4 for the mrs and have it next to my defender. What could be better? A luxurious capable tourer and a tough as nails defender in the driveway......[emoji41]

[Tombie]

Surely you mean D2 ? The last offroad Disco with real suspension travel and tyres that actually have a sidewall :)

Interesting that a standard RRC with its open diffs and superb suspension would have given the lot of them a real good run for their money. Perhaps cup holders and ion generators are more important than native 4WD capability in todays market.

Deano :)

Many years ago now I took a highly modified D2 on a Disco3UK trip around the Flinders..

Whilst the D2 went everywhere and wasn’t lifting wheels anywhere near as much as the D3s, it certainly wasn’t doing it “easy”...

And some sections the D3s made things look even easier and more controlled.. now consider the D4 and now 5 have far more advanced systems and the D5 greater travel and you have vehicles that on HTs/ATs were making light work of tracks the D2 was earning its keep on...

[PAT303]

Surely you mean D2 ? The last offroad Disco with real suspension travel and tyres that actually have a sidewall :)

Interesting that a standard RRC with its open diffs and superb suspension would have given the lot of them a real good run for their money. Perhaps cup holders and ion generators are more important than native 4WD capability in todays market.

Deano :)

Have you ever driven an RRC?,I love them,but the first thing I'll do when I buy one is take away most of what makes it great off road. Pat

[DI5CO]

Interesting stuff jethro, that would have been awesome to have spoken to someone like that!
When the 5 first came out, I couldn’t stand the rear end, but after working near the Land Rover experience at the Melb 4x4 Show and looking at it the whole time, I sort of came around. Then I saw them again at Henty field days, looking at it there again, then while on holidays, I saw a grey one yesterday in the street and have to say that I thought it was quite imposing and then thought maybe I should have waited the 18m to get the 5 lol
Anyway, it’s growing on me!
Dave

[ozscott]

Isn't this the end of the debate. From the LR design boss's mouth they have pushed Discovery closer to Range Rover with Disco being all about "lifestyle enabling" and "(the new) defenders are going to be all about their durability". So that's clear. Disco has moved more towards luxo tourer and if you want serious offroader in a new LR product wait for the new Defender.

Cheers

Land Rover Defender replacement is coming, at last (http://m.drive.com.au/motor-news/land-rover-defender-replacement-is-coming-at-last-20170222-guj0lz.html?eid=cpc:nnn-15omn0938-optim-nnn:google_adwords-bau_paid_search_campaign-dom-textad-nnn-drive-nnn&campaign_code=15caf041&promote_channel=sem&utm_source=google_adwords&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bau2015&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI69acz5vF1gIVHQYqCh1vXw3ZEAMYASAA EgLGp_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

[TB]

Isn't this the end of the debate. From the LR design boss's mouth they have pushed Discovery closer to Range Rover with Disco being all about "lifestyle enabling" and "(the new) defenders are going to be all about their durability". So that's clear. Disco has moved more towards luxo tourer and if you want serious offroader in a new LR product wait for the new Defender.

Cheers

Land Rover Defender replacement is coming, at last (http://m.drive.com.au/motor-news/land-rover-defender-replacement-is-coming-at-last-20170222-guj0lz.html?eid=cpc:nnn-15omn0938-optim-nnn:google_adwords-bau_paid_search_campaign-dom-textad-nnn-drive-nnn&campaign_code=15caf041&promote_channel=sem&utm_source=google_adwords&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bau2015&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI69acz5vF1gIVHQYqCh1vXw3ZEAMYASAA EgLGp_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

I’m pretty sure this was covered back in the first page or two... so no, apparently not the end of the debate :)

[Zeros]

Yes something like that. But as many keep pointing out, the proof will be in the pudding, because McGiver is always kinda saying nothing.

How much is McGovern paid to come up with all that waffle about design not being design, and only Defenders being durable...what? and all other Land Rovers are really Range Rovers, etc? Blah

To be fair on the guy, he does only seem to have the interests of those in his own street at heart - Mayfair, or Park Lane, or wherever he lives in London. It's pretty clear that he doesn't go bush...ever.

[Zeros]

Isn't this the end of the debate. From the LR design boss's mouth they have pushed Discovery closer to Range Rover with Disco being all about "lifestyle enabling" and "(the new) defenders are going to be all about their durability". So that's clear. Disco has moved more towards luxo tourer and if you want serious offroader in a new LR product wait for the new Defender.

Cheers

Land Rover Defender replacement is coming, at last (http://m.drive.com.au/motor-news/land-rover-defender-replacement-is-coming-at-last-20170222-guj0lz.html?eid=cpc:nnn-15omn0938-optim-nnn:google_adwords-bau_paid_search_campaign-dom-textad-nnn-drive-nnn&campaign_code=15caf041&promote_channel=sem&utm_source=google_adwords&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bau2015&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI69acz5vF1gIVHQYqCh1vXw3ZEAMYASAA EgLGp_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

That was just the beginning of the debate ozscott! 😳 ...look how many pages and there's no such thing as Defender...yet.

[ozscott]

Yep no Defender yet...but there doesn't need to be. His message is tolerable clear about where D5 has gone. His other clear message is the LR aim for new Defender...surely both are believable even for true believers.
Cheers

[Zeros]

Yep no Defender yet...but there doesn't need to be.

Not having a go at you ozscott, but this is a beautiful Freudian slip - articulating what McGovern really thinks and the real reason the 'design' of the next Defender has been so bungled. 🙃🐑

He said something like, the D5 is more a Range Rover which somehow makes way for the Defender ...to be a Disco? Which makes room for ?? to be Defender?

[trout1105]

Seriously why doesn't Landrover stop mucking about with all this new fangled D5 stuff and just start making brand new D2a's, I would buy one of those in a heartbeat [bigwhistle]

[scarry]

The end of the debate?

As this thread keeps going around in circles,it will never end.

Now how long is that piece of string[bighmmm]

[scarry]

Seriously why doesn't Landrover stop mucking about with all this new fangled D5 stuff and just start making brand new D2a's, I would buy one of those in a heartbeat [bigwhistle]

Cause they don't wanna go broke........

[Disco-tastic]

Yes something like that. But as many keep pointing out, the proof will be in the pudding, because McGiver is always kinda saying nothing.

How much is McGovern paid to come up with all that waffle about design not being design, and only Defenders being durable...what? and all other Land Rovers are really Range Rovers, etc? Blah

To be fair on the guy, he does only seem to have the interests of those in his own street at heart - Mayfair, or Park Lane, or wherever he lives in London. It's pretty clear that he doesn't go bush...ever.I thought the same thing when he was talking at te D5 SVX launch. Here they are promoting a rugged "hardcore SUV" and hes dressed up like charlie from the chocolate factory!

[ozscott]

In the fantasy world a brand spanking new d2 for 40k...sign me up. Bargain of the decade. However Storms are available... Les Richmond knows a good offroader when he sees one...

Cheers

[DeanoH]

Have you ever driven an RRC?,I love them,but the first thing I'll do when I buy one is take away most of what makes it great off road. Pat

Certainly have Pat, I bought my '85 RRC about 20 years ago and it's now parked up (deteriorating) in the back yard as I write this. Did about 120,000 K's in it including towing an off road trailer half way round the country including up your way Pilbara and Oakover River area.

Superb off road capabilities though a bit weak in the diffs/drive train and factory suspension a bit too soft for my liking but both on road and off road capability wise still as good or better than those tested. Not bad for a 40 yo (design wise) vehicle IMO. Would have loved to see it in action walking over the 'rock garden', I reckon it could have put the others including the D5 to shame.

Deano :)

[PAT303]

That's the trouble Deano,the long wheel travel of the RRC made them outstanding off road but it felt like you'll end up upside down every time you turned on the road. Pat

[ozscott]

It's funny...my D1 isn't much different from the RRC. They do lean but manager to handle really well.

Cheers

[rammypluge]

'Lifestyle Disabling'.

LR used to be an honest company that called a spade a spade and made good products.

Now i dont trust them.

[rammypluge]

In the fantasy world a brand spanking new d2 for 40k...sign me up. Bargain of the decade. However Storms are available... Les Richmond knows a good offroader when he sees one...

CheersStorm?

[rammypluge]

It's funny...my D1 isn't much different from the RRC. They do lean but manager to handle really well.

CheersThe D1 has substantially stiffer coils than the RRC, leans a lot less, is a lot less comfortable, and cant carry any more load due to absence of load leveller.

[rammypluge]

That's the trouble Deano,the long wheel travel of the RRC made them outstanding off road but it felt like you'll end up upside down every time you turned on the road. PatI grew up in one and thoroughly enjoyed the comfort and capability, but when i got my licence i just couldnt bring myself to buying one. Always wanted the comfort, but with more composure. Not sure if its ever really been done. Hope to build it myself.

[ozscott]

Storm?Discovery Series 2 1999 - 2004 Extreme (http://www.stormseries.com.au/contents/en-us/d14_Discovery_1999_-_2004.html)

Could spec $120,000 for their D2...

Cheers