Disappointed in the D5 / waiting for the Defender

[rammypluge]

Discovery Series 2 1999 - 2004 Extreme (http://www.stormseries.com.au/contents/en-us/d14_Discovery_1999_-_2004.html)

Could spec $120,000 for their D2...

CheersOk. Not critisicing them but i reckon what i want to build will be heaps better, but its a massive project [emoji50]

[ozscott]

I would not get one. I think mine is just about where I want it for metric ****eloads less. My point simply is that Graham Cooper and others who really know the LR products understand the great platform that the D2 presents for uber offroading and touring. Great stuff. Cheers

[oldsalt]

The single piece tailgate killed it for me... I tried one in the Doncaster showroom and even at off road height I banged my head on it...
and - IMHO - it's just ugly... couldn't stand having it in the driveway.
So we'll keep my D3 going for a while yet, however, when we think about a replacement it'll probably be another brand...sadly...
oh well...

cheers

[GP1200]

When to our local dealer yesterday, and went for a drive of a D5, quite stunned when sitting down to do the quote that LRA has issued a 2018 price rise of $6750-00 across the range, effectively for all built to order cars from this date forward.

i was looking at a HSE Luxury, inc in the price rise was some product improvements ( TFT main instrument panel and DAB radio) I still think their pricing themselves out of the market that the D3 and D4 owners play in.

Jack

[PAT303]

Thats what I think,they are hanging themselves price wise. Pat

[Zeros]

Agreed. D5 is pitched well above all Discos before it, which means that effectively all six current Land Rover models are aimed at the top end of the market, which once was only Range Rover domain. Even little Disco Sport and Evoque are priced near or above D4 prices.

So there is no longer a mid tier and no work vehicle tier. ...Will the next Defender span both? It's a big ask for one model. But rumours seem to say they'll try with many configurations.

...and then there's Road Rover.

[scarry]

Thats what I think,they are hanging themselves price wise. Pat

Agree totally,they have already done it with servicing and repair costs,well and truely hung themselves.

If you look carefully at what you actually 'get' on a D5,its not much,many things are extras,some of these are standard on something like a Hyundi.

Then there is this extra $6.75K GP1200 is talking about.

With the D4,7 seats was built into the price,you may have paid a bit more but not much,there were very few 5 seaters around.it wasn't an extra,as it is on the D5.

But what can you compare a D5 price to,LC200?

There is not really any other vehicle left in the same class,apart from something else from the same stable?

Audie,BMW,Volvo,etc don't have 2 speed TC,they aren't really an off road vehicle.

[rammypluge]

...and then there's Road Rover.
Thats a blast from the past!?

[Zeros]

Thats a blast from the past!?

Well it is...but it's being pitched as something new. New Road Rover model on the cards (https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.drive.com.au/amp/drive/motor-news/new-road-rover-model-on-the-cards-65291.html)

[Arapiles]

When to our local dealer yesterday, and went for a drive of a D5, quite stunned when sitting down to do the quote that LRA has issued a 2018 price rise of $6750-00 across the range, effectively for all built to order cars from this date forward.

i was looking at a HSE Luxury, inc in the price rise was some product improvements ( TFT main instrument panel and DAB radio) I still think their pricing themselves out of the market that the D3 and D4 owners play in.

Jack

Have to agree. Bluntly, whilst I have a reasonably good salary, I would baulk at paying more than $80k for a car - the D4 we bought recently was far and away the most we'd paid for a car. Similarly, while most of my friends are in the law or finance and are (very) well-off, almost none drive flash cars - in fact they mostly drive old Toyotas and Hondas that they buy rather than lease, and they're often bought second-hand. So, who is it that's paying $150+ k for a car? Or are these cars all being leased, perhaps through businesses?

[Zeros]

Have to agree. Bluntly, whilst I have a reasonably good salary, I would baulk at paying more than $80k for a car - the D4 we bought recently was far and away the most we'd paid for a car. Similarly, while most of my friends are in the law or finance and are (very) well-off, almost none drive flash cars - in fact they mostly drive old Toyotas and Hondas that they buy rather than lease, and they're often bought second-hand. So, who is it that's paying $150+ k for a car? Or are these cars all being leased, perhaps through businesses?

Excellent question Arapiles! ...I went into hock for a late model Defender 3 years ago, because I knew prices would rise. I still can't really afford it, despite being on an a decent (average) salary...and it was virtually half the price of almost any other Land Rover vehicle currently available! ...who can afford $100K+ ?

[Tombie]

Well the old Holden adage was “A Car will cost an average years pay” - this was a base model Holden...

Using that logic I can’t see the current line up being that expensive...

[Zeros]

Good point Tombie. The average yearly Australian wage is $60,892. Realistically about $10K or so under a base D5 on the road.

If you apply that edict to various vehicles, those earning over $100K per year could afford most Land Rovers, they are premium vehicles aimed at premium market.

Let's hope the base model Defender is only $60K.

[rammypluge]

Let's hope the base model Defender is only $60K.
Why not hope it is $40k like a base model Amarok? Compared to other vehicles, that's what i reckon is the bargain of the century.

Some people think defenders are simpler, more suitable for the bush, but modern defenders have CANBUS too, and i am told have the computer near the footwell and its not good if it gets flooded. The computer in the Amarok is at the top of the engine bay and there are no reports as yet of water being a problem to it.

[Tombie]

Rammy- the later Defenders ECU is on the firewall above the engine [emoji41]

[Zeros]

Why not hope it is $40k like a base model Amarok? Compared to other vehicles, that's what i reckon is the bargain of the century.

Some people think defenders are simpler, more suitable for the bush, but modern defenders have CANBUS too, and i am told have the computer near the footwell and its not good if it gets flooded. The computer in the Amarok is at the top of the engine bay and there are no reports as yet of water being a problem to it.

Yes Rammy Amarok's are pretty good value. I picked one up a few years ago for $36K new...minimum $40K+ now. I thought I'd try it out, but I was disappointed...it was like driving a car, soft panels dented easily and was nowhere near as good off road as Defender...mainly in terms of ruggedness. Not bad on road, but not really any better than Defender's all four coils. So I went back to Defender in 2014. I reckon the next Defender will be around $60K drive away starting price.

Defender ECU is at the top of the engine bay on fire wall. Electrics under seats are more vulnerable, so exbox is a good mod if you do deep water crossings. I know I'd rather be in a Defender with its big heavy chassis for a deep water crossing.

[rammypluge]

Yes Rammy Amarok's are pretty good value. I picked one up a few years ago for $36K new...minimum $40K+ now. I thought I'd try it out, but I was disappointed...it was like driving a car, soft panels dented easily and was nowhere near as good off road as Defender...mainly in terms of ruggedness. Not bad on road, but not really any better than Defender's all four coils. So I went back to Defender in 2014. I reckon the next Defender will be around $60K drive away starting price.

Defender ECU is at the top of the engine bay on fire wall. Electrics under seats are more vulnerable, so exbox is a good mod if you do deep water crossings. I know I'd rather be in a Defender with its big heavy chassis for a deep water crossing.Well . . .

Like driving a car = good!

Pretty much all cars post 1970's have soft panels, unfortunately. The Amarok uses high tensile steel like many if not most new cars, but i dont think that makes any difference, supposedly they design cars so you dont dent them when polishing them (?). How many people cover over the bonnet surround panels on the defender because simply resting ones elbows on them causes dints?

With a few of the right mods, an Amarok can beat a defender offroad, mine always has, both a perentie with 33" tyres and a new defender.

Ruggedness? The Amarok has a heavy duty front underguard as standard, and only has a few weaknesses, for example, one of the fuel tank straps can get remolded when dragged over mud. The underside really is pretty good, no exhaust damage, no crossmember or chassis rail damage.

Chassis? The Amarok has a 3mm thick chassis, the Defenders is 2mm thick. Both are very stiff, i couldnt say which is stiffer, could go either way in my view, but the Amaroks is a newer design.

[ozscott]

What made yours better off-road than a well set up Deefer especially given the Rocs independent front end (and no air bags cross linked to have a stab at simulating live axle)... from memory yours had a lot of work. Did the Deefer with 33s have a lot of work? Did he know how to drive? Did you have a locker?

Cheers

Cheers

[jon3950]

Why not hope it is $40k like a base model Amarok? Compared to other vehicles, that's what i reckon is the bargain of the century.

Some people think defenders are simpler, more suitable for the bush, but modern defenders have CANBUS too, and i am told have the computer near the footwell and its not good if it gets flooded. The computer in the Amarok is at the top of the engine bay and there are no reports as yet of water being a problem to it.

As has already been said, the ecu is at top centre of the firewall on the Puma so about as good as it gets considering you're driving a colander. The most vulnerable electrics are the fuses and relays underneath the drivers seat. Then comes the tps. If you are able to address both those issues you can get the wading depth up to that of a D5. [wink11]

Can-bus isn't really anything to be scared of. In the Puma it just connects the ecu with the abs module and instrument cluster. Its just a pair of twisted wires.

No doubt the new Defender will be more complicated, but the reality is so is everything else and they need to be to comply with current legislation. If you don't want to live in the modern world (which I get - I'm a bit over it too) just keep your old Defender running. At least with a Defender that is a realistic alternative.

Cheers,
Jon

[1nando]

Personally for me i love live axles. Ive owned all types of 4wds of different makes and nothing comes close to a live axle vehicle in the bush. Now im not in any way trying to imply or state that an IFS vehicle is not competent or capable, i just love the ruggedness and peace of mind live axles offer. In saying that i owned a 2006 str navara that had a 3 inch lift and a lot of $$$$ spent on it, it was extremely capable. Mod for mod my defender surpasses it with much less driver input needed simply through having live axles.
The only standard vehicle that is superior to what my standard defender was before i started modifying it is probably the rubicon as its built for extreme 4wding, problem is it had a payload of a Prius.....

[rammypluge]

What made yours better off-road than a well set up Deefer especially given the Rocs independent front end (and no air bags cross linked to have a stab at simulating live axle)... from memory yours had a lot of work. Did the Deefer with 33s have a lot of work? Did he know how to drive? Did you have a locker?

Cheers

CheersMine beat the perentie because he didnt have diff locks wheareas my Rok has a rear std and front traction control, plus he had exactly half the power and around 2/3 the torque. We both had 33" tyres. He had new mud terrains and i had AT but he still struggled for traction on a steep wet dirt and rock hill that i walked up.

Beat the new defer cos of 285 33" vs 235 32" and i have a rear locker. My front diff doesnt hang as low and my rear diff may also be a bit more compact. My wider track as std can mean i dont sit as low in ruts and possibly get a tad of sidewall traction.

My car flexes better than the perentie and probably better than the new defer as well but not sure.

People tell me i know how to drive but i try to factor for that, and my car is comparatively easy to drive once you know which buttons to push and when.

[rammypluge]

Personally for me i love live axles. Ive owned all types of 4wds of different makes and nothing comes close to a live axle vehicle in the bush. Now im not in any way trying to imply or state that an IFS vehicle is not competent or capable, i just love the ruggedness and peace of mind live axles offer. In saying that i owned a 2006 str navara that had a 3 inch lift and a lot of $$$$ spent on it, it was extremely capable. Mod for mod my defender surpasses it with much less driver input needed simply through having live axles.
The only standard vehicle that is superior to what my standard defender was before i started modifying it is probably the rubicon as its built for extreme 4wding, problem is it had a payload of a Prius.....When we go in mud the guys with live axles diff out sooner. In sand they are similar. In rocks they are different but similar.

[ozscott]

Having been off-road with the best independent set up (ie d3 and d4 where the air suspension presses down on the wheel opposite the one going up in an attempt to simulate live axle) you are not convincing me. The stability and trip afforded by a fulcrum is second go none irrespective of diffs hitting the ground at some point.

Cheers

[rammypluge]

Having been off-road with the best independent set up (ie d3 and d4 where the air suspension presses down on the wheel opposite the one going up in an attempt to simulate live axle) you are not convincing me. The stability and trip afforded by a fulcrum is second go none irrespective of diffs hitting the ground at some point.

CheersThe patrol actually had the front swaybar disconnected, although its 2.5" raised h/d coils obviously resisted flex more than std coils would.https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/68.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/69.jpg

[Tombie]

Nice Rok!

[ozscott]

Rammy you did great things with that IFS. Nice set up. But that wheel is just hanging there. The GQ'S wheel on the same side is being forced into the ground providing both traction and stability courtesy of the live axle.. The photo illustrates it nicely. Cheers

[tact]

Rammy you did great things with that IFS. Nice set up. But that wheel is just hanging there. The GQ'S wheel on the same side is being forced into the ground providing both traction and stability courtesy of the live axle.. The photo illustrates it nicely. Cheers

Not to mention that even a portly gentleman could get his body full length under the GQ in that position, perchance to change the oil or take a nap. Not so the Rok... its clear which vehicle will belly out first.

[rammypluge]

These vehicles have been almost everywhere together, and the Rok is always more capable. Yes, the Roks sills are low, but the chassis is high, it almost never has ramp over issues.

[rammypluge]

My Rok went straight up, the Perentie never made it.

Amarok Club of South Australia, steep bank - YouTube (https://youtu.be/9KUPjxOGA8I)

[cripesamighty]

Hey nice! Is that a hardtop Perentie (pretty rare) or the TD5 interim version the Army ordered?

[rammypluge]

Rammy you did great things with that IFS. Nice set up. But that wheel is just hanging there. The GQ'S wheel on the same side is being forced into the ground providing both traction and stability courtesy of the live axle.. The photo illustrates it nicely. CheersThe reality is that both vehicle's passenger rear is in the air, which means that the drivers front of both only has as much weight on it as their front weight biases.

To look even deeper, when i trod on the passenger rear of the Rok, the wheel went to the ground without raising the driver front, whereas when i did that to the mav it lifted the front. But the mav was parked a bit more aggressively. But then again the mav was missing its front swaybar.

[Disco-tastic]

My Rok went straight up, the Perentie never made it.

Amarok Club of South Australia, steep bank - YouTube (https://youtu.be/9KUPjxOGA8I)Im gonna hazard a guess your rear locker made all the difference in that cross axled situation.

[rammypluge]

Hey nice! Is that a hardtop Perentie (pretty rare) or the TD5 interim version the Army ordered?Its a hardtop, with the 3.9 non turbo. It was a helicopter version.

On the Simpson trip, when the road was corrugated, we couldnt use the UHF, as it was too noisy because the rear window seals were worn and the windows rattled like crazy.

[rammypluge]

Im gonna hazard a guess your rear locker made all the difference in that cross axled situation.Yep! Gotta love a std locker! Front tc helps too, and so does some flex.

[cripesamighty]

Had the rattly rear windows on my old TD5 Defender till I sorted them out with new runners. Still, that was better than the Puma I got afterwards that had the entire rear window start to pop rivets like a zipper and make a dash for it (ie. started to fall out). I pulled out the interior trim and used bigger pop rivets which soon fixed that little problem!

[rammypluge]

The commentary speaks for itself . . .

Denhams Track in the Otway Ranges. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/57HhvUP99CE)

[1nando]

Rammy my 110 would have idled over that section where the perentie struggled. Id put my mortgage on it.

[ozscott]

Rammy that Roc is very nice. But a well set up live axle Land Rover with a rear locker and traction control (apples v apples) will be better is very difficult terrain...jusy the way of it. Let's face it the VW would easily get people 90 per cent of places people would want to tread.

Cheers

[Zeros]

Rammy that Roc is very nice. But a well set up live axle Land Rover with a rear locker and traction control (apples v apples) will be better is very difficult terrain...jusy the way of it. Let's face it the VW would easily get people 90 per cent of places people would want to tread.

Cheers

Nothing against Amarok as a potential Defender replacement if it suits your purpose. But for me, more than cross-axle capability, it's about long term durability. ...Live axles, four coils, massive box chassis, are going to be more durable over time, hammering over 30-40,000km a year of desert corrugations, year after year. ...As will more clearance, flat sides, taller tyres, heavier duty drive train, larger CV's, etc.

[1nando]

If i had to buy a proper hardcore 4x4 right now (imagining i didnt have my defender ), i hate to admit this but id be hard pressed not to buy a 76 series. I know that the leafs make for terrible 4wd vehicle but they are ok fpr touring. The thing that seals the deal for me is live axles and a tough no nonse design. If i didnt buy that id have a d4 as my second option

[Zeros]

If i had to buy a proper hardcore 4x4 right now (imagining i didnt have my defender ), i hate to admit this but id be hard pressed not to buy a 76 series. I know that the leafs make for terrible 4wd vehicle but they are ok fpr touring. The thing that seals the deal for me is live axles and a tough no nonse design. If i didnt buy that id have a d4 as my second option

I drove a Troopcarrier for years for work in northern Australia ...leaf springs are terrible, no matter the load. ...Although the design of Amarok leaf springs is much better, being side mounted on the chassis improves stability and ride. Hard to believe VW were the first to work this out. ...still not as good as four coils though.

[rammypluge]

I drove a Troopcarrier for years for work in northern Australia ...leaf springs are terrible, no matter the load. ...Although the design of Amarok leaf springs is much better, being side mounted on the chassis improves stability and ride. Hard to believe VW were the first to work this out. ...still not as good as four coils though.I reckon american utes and trucks have been mounting their leaves like that for ages.

However, my Rok has similar ride comfort to a Disco 1, and yet due to the leaves being dual stage it can handle more load.

[rammypluge]

Rammy my 110 would have idled over that section where the perentie struggled. Id put my mortgage on it.My dad used to own a 110 county and i am confident it wouldnt have got up unladen or with only light load. Fully laden it might have articulated enough to have a decent stab by keeping wheels on the ground for longer.

Of course, if say a rear locker was fitted, no worries.

[rammypluge]

Rammy that Roc is very nice. But a well set up live axle Land Rover with a rear locker and traction control (apples v apples) will be better is very difficult terrain...jusy the way of it. Let's face it the VW would easily get people 90 per cent of places people would want to tread.

CheersAgreed, with caveouts.

One, my Rok gets me 98% of the places i want to go, and would get most 4wders 99.99% of the places they want to go. It has a significantly better side slope capability than a defender, and more power delivery to climb dunes. It left the perentie for dead on big red.

Two, defenders are no longer available new.

Three, i have seen a Rok with 30" tyres get through ruts that stopped a defender with 32". The front bash guard of the Rok works like a tobboggan, and the ifs drops the wheels down into the ruts to keep giving traction, while the rear diff has good clearance and also slides well.

Four, defenders were 50% more expensive (?), and yet had horrible archaic interiors, much less performance, etc...

[rammypluge]

Nothing against Amarok as a potential Defender replacement if it suits your purpose. But for me, more than cross-axle capability, it's about long term durability. ...Live axles, four coils, massive box chassis, are going to be more durable over time, hammering over 30-40,000km a year of desert corrugations, year after year. ...As will more clearance, flat sides, taller tyres, heavier duty drive train, larger CV's, etc.My Rok doesnt hammer over corrugations. It was voted by far more comfortable than the perentie. A couple of people felt sick from it and swapped into my car.

My Rok has 33" tyres, they fit easily, which are larger than defender std and the defender cant so easily fit bigger.

Is the defer chassis and drivetrain really more heavy duty? Sure, i did a cv at 60k, but i was always the guy doing the hardest stuff while others watched.

[1nando]

Rammy, im twin locked. Im fairly confident i would have idled over it

[rammypluge]

Rammy, im twin locked. Im fairly confident i would have idled over itYeah, decent chance of that in that case. Otherwise, poke a front leg in the air and sit there idly spinning the rest.

The question is whether the Amarok could be seen as a more suitable vehicle for traditional LR folk than the D5 or new Defender . . .

[rammypluge]

Rok got straight up, Perentie took a few go's . . .

Preparation for the AUMC Simpson Trip - YouTube (https://youtu.be/eI608RVvKgc)

[tact]

[...]My Rok has 33" tyres, they fit easily, which are larger than defender std and the defender cant so easily fit bigger [...].

Gotta call you out on that comment, just for accuracy - not claiming this one detail makes much difference to the weird discussion.

Defender stock is 235/85R16 (~31.73”). My Defender is running 255/85R16 (smidge over 33”) and all I had to do was take the old rubber off the stock rims and fit the new rubber.

i.e. No spacers, no rim change, no susp lift, no body lift, no cutting or shunting and no rubbing.

Can it it be any more simple!?

Whats the stock size tyres and rims on the ‘rok? What changes did you have to make to fit 33” tyres?

[1nando]

Also lets not forget that a perentie is not as good offroad as a puma. The TC on the puma is excellent

[rammypluge]

My Rok gets through...
Amarok Club of South Australia along the Border Track (15) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ZTxk7MKZMCQ)

Patrol, also on 33", gets stuck...
Amarok Club of South Australia along the Border Track (16) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/guomqrHwOn8)

[rammypluge]

Gotta call you out on that comment, just for accuracy - not claiming this one detail makes much difference to the weird discussion.

Defender stock is 235/85R16 (~31.73”). My Defender is running 255/85R16 (smidge over 33”) and all I had to do was take the old rubber off the stock rims and fit the new rubber.

i.e. No spacers, no rim change, no susp lift, no body lift, no cutting or shunting and no rubbing.

Can it it be any more simple!?

Whats the stock size tyres and rims on the ‘rok? What changes did you have to make to fit 33” tyres?Okay. A Rok needs non std rims and a front lift or front mudflap trim or removal.

[Zeros]

Hey Rammy, everyone has different priorities. It's great to hear you're loving your Rok, they're a nice car and certainly very capable in certain circumstances.

Whether it's a viable alternative to Defender is an interesting question...they are entirely different vehicles. My experience is that the Amarok is not an alternative to a Defender.

As I mentioned earlier, I tried an Amarok for two years (in between owning two Defenders). ...I didn't like it and upgraded to a new Defender in 2014. I haven't regretted my decision for a second. ...They are like chalk and cheese to me. Defender is easily more robust and durable IMO.

It's not all about cross-axle capability, but it's pretty clear to me that Defender is more capable without modification. My 2014 Defender is stock except for upgrading the shocks to Koni's for durability reasons on severe corrugations over many years. I find the Defender heaps better off road than the Amarok for my purposes.

I also much prefer the interior of the Defender over the car-like interior of the Amarok...for so many reasons, not least the upright super supportive seating position and four corner visibility...

Cheers

[tact]

Okay. A Rok needs non std rims and a front lift or front mudflap trim or removal.

ahh... caught out with the boast that it was easy, and that it’s not easy on a Defender. Both assertions patently untrue.

So the ‘rok needs mods to fit 33” tyres to get anywhere in the challenging stuff. Better allow a Defender a mod like a rear locker to even the score.

Now try and convince anyone your modern ‘rok (with 33”s) can beat a modern Defender (with rear locker) in any off-road situation! [bigrolf]

[rammypluge]

Rok gets through (i gunned it a bit but didnt need to) ...
Amarok Club of South Australia along the Border Track (21) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/9wckQyVmb9w)

Oops, mav gets stuck...
Amarok Club of South Australia along the Border Track (20) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/181bAEWrDNM)

Hmm, defender is stuck bad...
Amarok Club of South Australia along the Border Track (19) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/EhK0RFIZ7UE)

[rammypluge]

ahh... caught out with the boast that it was easy, and that it’s not easy on a Defender. Both assertions patently untrue.

So the ‘rok needs mods to fit 33” tyres to get anywhere in the challenging stuff. Better allow a Defender a mod like a rear locker to even the score.

Now try and convince anyone your modern ‘rok (with 33”s) can beat a modern Defender (with rear locker) in any off-road situation! [bigrolf]No, i said it was easy to fit 33" on the Rok, and not easy to fit bigger than 33" on a defender.

Fitting a rear locker to an otherwise standard Puma will make it closer to my Roks capabilities, but with only 32" tyres, diggy diffs, and unladen with stiff coils and anti-roll bars, it would still lose out a bit. It might have more ramp over, definitely better sill clearance, fully locked centre unlike auto rok, better reverse drive than an auto rok, but not much else.

If you were planning to go into the high country with a trailer you would want a manual Rok over the auto Rok.

My rok would still kill it in ruts, all sandy conditions, and on tarmac.

[Zeros]

I've never replaced a CV on my Defender in more than 15 years. [bigwhistle]

[rammypluge]

I've never replaced a CV on my Defender in more than 15 years. [bigwhistle]Okay, show me some videos of you working it hard!

Having fun at The Coorong - YouTube (https://youtu.be/w2zXr14Yvpo)

[ozscott]

Nice hard sand...

Looks like my D2 4.6 when I'm running late for the barge...only I'm doing it in more style with a sound show to match [emoji16][emoji16]

[Zeros]

Okay, show me some videos of you working it hard!

Having fun at The Coorong - YouTube (https://youtu.be/w2zXr14Yvpo)

bro, I was 'working it hard' when VHS was the preferred format...no phone cameras. I don't bother videoing the deefer in action these days. ...too busy and nothing to prove.[smilebigeye] ...go well.

[rammypluge]

Nice hard sand...

Looks like my D2 4.6 when I'm running late for the barge...only I'm doing it in more style with a sound show to match [emoji16][emoji16][emoji4] See, thats how good it is, it makes 13psi sand look hard [emoji4].

[Vern]

Hardly cv breaking material there.

Also you can fit 35's on a defender with nothing more than a 2" lift.

[CraigE]

The interior looks good apart from inadequate space in the rear, but the outside is pig ugly. The fact that the HSE is also made from Unobtanium at $143 odd K optioned up. The mid range 4x4 has now become an elitist vehicle (though I guess this did start with the D4). At least in D1 and D2 incarnation the average person could afford the top of the range. Will in all honesty likely mean I never buy a new Land Rover again, maybe a second hand one at best.

[Vern]

The interior looks good apart from inadequate space in the rear, but the outside is pig ugly. The fact that the HSE is also made from Unobtanium at $143 odd K optioned up. The mid range 4x4 has now become an elitist vehicle (though I guess this did start with the D4). At least in D1 and D2 incarnation the average person could afford the top of the range. Will in all honesty likely mean I never buy a new Land Rover again, maybe a second hand one at best.Top of the range d1 was around $80k! Back in 1994! Not much difference to todays rate of $143k

[veebs]

I bought a second hand machine - and love it. Let someone else cop the worst of the depreciation I say!

Not sure what the Defender vs Amarok "mine is bigger than yours" discussion has to do with the Discovery 5?

[Vern]

I bought a second hand machine - and love it. Let someone else cop the worst of the depreciation I say!

Not sure what the Defender vs Amarok "mine is bigger than yours" discussion has to do with the Discovery 5?And particularly when comparing a stock car vs a modified!

[CraigE]

Top of the range d1 was around $80k! Back in 1994! Not much difference to todays rate of $143k

Well a mid range SE model in 97 was $42 now over $100k so has more than doubled in 20 years. In 1994 the most expensive D1 was $65k, a Tdi SE was $44k in 94. The odd thing is they actually got cheaper by 97. I bought an SE in 1997 brand new optioned up for $42 on road total, including bull bar, tow bar, snorkel, mats and a few other items. In the D1 I don't remember there being a HSE. 1997 SE was $42k RRP, SE7 was $51K, Rossignal $57k, ES (no HSE) $65 but you could easily get these on road for same if not better and LR extras added. The P38 Range Rover in base was only $99 then and just over $114 for the HSE and $149 for the Autobiography. These were all 1997 update prices.

Even more surprising was the most expensive D2 in 2000 was $67k but as low as $46k for a TD5 manual.
The most expensive D2 update in 2004 was just on $80 and that is maybe what you are thinking of and that was a HSE ( from memory HSE in the Disco only came in with the D2 update). But as low as $52 for base models.

Of course these were RRP and you could get much better deals on them, in 97 you could even get the V8 for around $38k (what I was offered in a SE7).

You say not much of an increase, well over 10 years D1 & D2 around $15k in the top of the range. In 12 years between 2005 D2 to D5 in 2017 a $63k increase and you reckon that is OK:(

I do get the vehicle is much more technologically advanced, but still its a massive price leap for what was a mid point 4x4.

[CraigE]

My Rok gets through...
Amarok Club of South Australia along the Border Track (15) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ZTxk7MKZMCQ)

Patrol, also on 33", gets stuck...
Amarok Club of South Australia along the Border Track (16) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/guomqrHwOn8)

Amorok :eek2::Rolling::Rolling:Sorry we have one as a track response car and in all honesty one of the biggest POS's I have ever driven. Gutless and uncomfortable. Was very disappointed to say the least after hearing all the hype about these. My TD5 Defender can get off the line much quicker. To do a motor race chase you have to rev it to 4000rpm to even get it off the line at a half decent launch pace and then within milli seconds hit 5000rpm and have to change gear with massive lag. I can get a loaded Fallcon Ute with 500 litres of water and a Land Cruser V8 ute with 500litres of water plus cutting gear and CAFFS unit of the line much faster. Off road the Rok is pretty average.
You cannot seriously compare a Rok with a Defender. The Defender any model will walk all over the Rok offroad any day without any mods.

[Vern]

My old d1 ES tdi had $72k price tag on it according to the books i had. And it wasn't anywhere near as flash as a d2/3/4/5 or even a range rover at the time.

[rick130]

I'm still trying to get my head around comparing a vehicle from the 80's without a locking diff in sight and suspension set up for the client to carry loads, vs a modified new vehicle?

Purchase justification anyone?

My old Deefer had 10" of travel in the front at the bump stops and it was only slightly higher than stock ride height without too much modification, I can't see a Rok achieving anything like that sort of articulation in a hurry without some serious reengineering.
It also carried a constant work load of around 7-800kg its entire working life, often at silly speeds speeds over indifferent roads.

The Deefer also outshone our then new GU Patrol coil ute on the farm, and was more comfortable, had better if minimalist seats, a better driving position but a cramped cab, yet on a trip the GU was so much quieter and had modern creature comforts, I wonder if I can sure Land Rover for my tinnitus?? (Joking!)
Swings and merry go rounds...

We all know the faults of the 90/110/130, we've discussed them ad nauseum and Land Rovers failure to address basic engineering issues over the years, but one area they've shone is off road, and as the years progressed at least Land Rover kept them current with excellent T/C although articulation had been comprised with anti-roll bars, and such a shame lockers were never an option from the factory....

Have to get back to work...

[veebs]

And particularly when comparing a stock car vs a modified!

I reckon a Suzuki could do better than the VW - this one is pretty much stock too...

130520

[rammypluge]

Hardly cv breaking material there.

Also you can fit 35's on a defender with nothing more than a 2" lift.It was a fun video.

I agree the defender has more potential for extreme offroading, but if you dont do the mods its gonna get beaten by my Rok.

Given the thread title, for the guys that are died in the wool live axle advocates, and given LR have stated the new deefer will be fully independent (?), where to from here? Secondhand deefer? 70 series toppleover? Jeep JK? G Wagon?

My original suggestion was that in the absence of an offroad suitable disco the Rok is the closest thing in the market. And now i wonder that if the new defender is also not suitable for offroading the Rok might also be the closest alternative in the market for that.

[Zeros]

I bought a second hand machine - and love it. Let someone else cop the worst of the depreciation I say!

Not sure what the Defender vs Amarok "mine is bigger than yours" discussion has to do with the Discovery 5?

...Well the thread is about being disappointed in the D5 and waiting for next Defender.

...and between now and then there will be a whole lot of spurious stuff about what else might be better than a D5 and / or the mythical new Defender LOL:eek2::wallbash:

[Vern]

It was a fun video.

I agree the defender has more potential for extreme offroading, but if you dont do the mods its gonna get beaten by my Rok.

Given the thread title, for the guys that are died in the wool live axle advocates, and given LR have stated the new deefer will be fully independent (?), where to from here? Secondhand deefer? 70 series toppleover? Jeep JK? G Wagon?

My original suggestion was that in the absence of an offroad suitable disco the Rok is the closest thing in the market. And now i wonder that if the new defender is also not suitable for offroading the Rok might also be the closest alternative in the market for that.
I too have a rok, has a few mods, it is horrible off road compared to my rangie classic!
Now i can guarantee my rangie will leave my rok for dead, and every car in those vids you have posted.

[Zeros]

It was a fun video.

I agree the defender has more potential for extreme offroading, but if you dont do the mods its gonna get beaten by my Rok.

Given the thread title, for the guys that are died in the wool live axle advocates, and given LR have stated the new deefer will be fully independent (?), where to from here? Secondhand deefer? 70 series toppleover? Jeep JK? G Wagon?

My original suggestion was that in the absence of an offroad suitable disco the Rok is the closest thing in the market. And now i wonder that if the new defender is also not suitable for offroading the Rok might also be the closest alternative in the market for that.

You're funny Rammypluge! :Rolling: ...so you reckon the next Defender with IFS is going to be worse off road than your Amarok with IFS [tonguewink]

(ps: regardles ...all the above is part of the reason that current model Defenders prices are so high).

[rammypluge]

And particularly when comparing a stock car vs a modified!The difference in purchase price means up to 20k can be spent on the rok before a cent gets to be spent on the fender [emoji38]

[Vern]

The difference in purchase price means up to 20k can be spent on the rok before a cent gets to be spent on the fender [emoji38]And what does that have to do with the comparison of a modified vs non modified vehicle?

[rammypluge]

I too have a rok, has a few mods, it is horrible off road compared to my rangie classic!
Now i can guarantee my rangie will leave my rok for dead, and every car in those vids you have posted.Sounds like you did the wrong mods to your Rok, like most others.

I grew up in an essentially unmodified 77 rangie, and whilst it was awesome offroad, my Rok having as much flex, bigger tyres and a rear diff lock and front tc, etc, would beat it easy.

Of course if you fit that rangie with twin diff locks and 35's it will beat my Rok.

Look at the vents on the dashboard, its the spiritual successor!https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/143.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/144.jpg

[scarry]

And what does that have to do with the comparison of a modified vs non modified vehicle?

I am beginning to wonder what all this Amarok stuff has to do with a D5?[tonguewink]

Next there will be posts about hiluxes[bighmmm]

[Vern]

Sounds like you did the wrong mods to your Rok, like most others.

I grew up in an essentially unmodified 77 rangie, and whilst it was awesome offroad, my Rok having as much flex, bigger tyres and a rear diff lock and front tc, etc, would beat it easy.

Of course if you fit that rangie with twin diff locks and 35's it will beat my Rok.

Look at the vents on the dashboard, its the spiritual successor!https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/143.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/144.jpgThere you go again, comparing you 'modified' rok against a 'stock' rover!
Its getting tedious.
When my rok was im stock form, it was know where near as good offroad as my stock disco1, excluding the rear locker.
I didn't mod it for offroad, all i have done besides bar and canopy etc..is bigger a/t tyres and a lift courtesy of arb, all because i don't care, its set up for daily driving and touring around.
Dollar for dollar, it will never be as good as a rover!

[rammypluge]

Also you can fit 35's on a defender with nothing more than a 2" lift.
If you only put 2" lift coils under a defender it ends up with hardly any droop, making it a POS. You need longer shocks and extended bumps stops at the least.

[rammypluge]

I'm still trying to get my head around comparing a vehicle from the 80's without a locking diff in sight and suspension set up for the client to carry loads, vs a modified new vehicle?

Purchase justification anyone?

My old Deefer had 10" of travel in the front at the bump stops and it was only slightly higher than stock ride height without too much modification, I can't see a Rok achieving anything like that sort of articulation in a hurry without some serious reengineering.
It also carried a constant work load of around 7-800kg its entire working life, often at silly speeds speeds over indifferent roads.

The Deefer also outshone our then new GU Patrol coil ute on the farm, and was more comfortable, had better if minimalist seats, a better driving position but a cramped cab, yet on a trip the GU was so much quieter and had modern creature comforts, I wonder if I can sure Land Rover for my tinnitus?? (Joking!)
Swings and merry go rounds...

We all know the faults of the 90/110/130, we've discussed them ad nauseum and Land Rovers failure to address basic engineering issues over the years, but one area they've shone is off road, and as the years progressed at least Land Rover kept them current with excellent T/C although articulation had been comprised with anti-roll bars, and such a shame lockers were never an option from the factory....

Have to get back to work...The Amarok has 9" of front travel, and just with slightly longer rear shocks mine has 15" of rear travel, the total of which is similar to a defender.

[Vern]

If you only put 2" lift coils under a defender it ends up with hardly any droop, making it a POS. You need longer shocks and extended bumps stops at the least.I would have assumed you would have thought if putting a 2" lift in you also fit shocks to suit!

[AGRO]

NON Land Rover Vehicles (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/non-land-rover-vehicles/)

Thanks

[rammypluge]

So is there any more info about the new defender? [emoji39]

[1nando]

Rammy be honest and tell me a rough estimate of what its cost you to to run 33s. I had a good look at one in the car park and mate i cant see 33s fitting under it without a host of rubbing issues.

As for IFS suspension, yes it does have some areas of benefit however you can't beat solid axles for rutted and rocky terrain. Solid axles provide a smoother more calculated ride over obstacles. Solid axles allow for a much stronger drivetrain setup. I run ashcroft cvs which are guaranteed with upto 35s. An IFS truck will never be as strong as a solid axle vehicle.
The d5 has air suspension or whatever its called and thats why i wont buy it for my idea of offroad. There are obviously other reasons aswell such as stupid shape, too many overhanging/bloated panels and of course the price tag.
The level of modification to your rok is far beyond that of a standard one, im sure that your rig has had over 10k spent on it just to accommodate the larger tyres and suspension to suit, and keeping in mind everything that broke along the way. The other thing is that the lack of a transfer case makes it not as good of road. I can put my puma into 1st low and its so slow that even down a hill i could get out and walk next to it (not that i would, but you get my point).
Yes i gramt you that your Rok is a well "setup" truck, but its "setup" so when comparing it to other vehicles make it a even comparison. Im twin locked with a 10k drivetrain; would it be fair for me to compare it to a standard puma......of course not. D90 Orkney (Damo) on hear has a very impressive 90 puma thats modified heavily and has some of the best flex ive seen on any fender ever (youtube it). Would it be a fair comparison to compare it to my 110. Corse not! He'd get through a lot of places id get stuck.
Modification when done correctly is great and you should be stoked you have a great setup. Had you bought a puma and done the same level of mods im sure you'd be impressed to.

[fitzy]

[emoji897][emoji16][emoji21]

[CraigE]

My old d1 ES tdi had $72k price tag on it according to the books i had. And it wasn't anywhere near as flash as a d2/3/4/5 or even a range rover at the time.

Not doubting it, but RRP was $65k, still written in the front of a book I have when deciding but. But also red book prices confirmed them, where I got the D2 prices (but did look at D2s new as well before buying the Defender second hand, looked at new D2s on run out and the new D3 in 2005. They actually told ne they could even bring the 97 D1 ES down to around $60K if I wanted the demo ES or $85K for the Rangie, but still out of my comfortable repayment zone. Our local dealer was very keen to sell cars when I bought ours and shaved margins to make them more attractive.
Like I said what was odd is the way prices were higher in 94 and actually came down in 97, likely the Aus $ value.
$143k in anyone's language for what should be a mid tier vehicle is still a lot of money and rules a lot of people out. The devaluation on these will be horrendous I reckon.

[rammypluge]

Rammy be honest and tell me a rough estimate of what its cost you to to run 33s. I had a good look at one in the car park and mate i cant see 33s fitting under it without a host of rubbing issues.

As for IFS suspension, yes it does have some areas of benefit however you can't beat solid axles for rutted and rocky terrain. Solid axles provide a smoother more calculated ride over obstacles. Solid axles allow for a much stronger drivetrain setup. I run ashcroft cvs which are guaranteed with upto 35s. An IFS truck will never be as strong as a solid axle vehicle.
The d5 has air suspension or whatever its called and thats why i wont buy it for my idea of offroad. There are obviously other reasons aswell such as stupid shape, too many overhanging/bloated panels and of course the price tag.
The level of modification to your rok is far beyond that of a standard one, im sure that your rig has had over 10k spent on it just to accommodate the larger tyres and suspension to suit, and keeping in mind everything that broke along the way. The other thing is that the lack of a transfer case makes it not as good of road. I can put my puma into 1st low and its so slow that even down a hill i could get out and walk next to it (not that i would, but you get my point).
Yes i gramt you that your Rok is a well "setup" truck, but its "setup" so when comparing it to other vehicles make it a even comparison. Im twin locked with a 10k drivetrain; would it be fair for me to compare it to a standard puma......of course not. D90 Orkney (Damo) on hear has a very impressive 90 puma thats modified heavily and has some of the best flex ive seen on any fender ever (youtube it). Would it be a fair comparison to compare it to my 110. Corse not! He'd get through a lot of places id get stuck.
Modification when done correctly is great and you should be stoked you have a great setup. Had you bought a puma and done the same level of mods im sure you'd be impressed to.All i have done to fit the 33" is remove the front mudflaps, and use a heat gun on a 50c sized section of the inner guards to heat and squash it back about 10mm.

There was still very minor and inconsequential rubbing when turning at a specific angle and compression of suspension, until i did the lift and that went away.

I agree it doesnt look like they would fit se easy at the front but heaps and heaps of amarok guys have now done it so its pretty much an exact science.

My suspension mods are custom but available and all fitted runs at less than $3k. It provides smooth and controlled ride over rutted and rocky terrain. The lower control arms and bushes are mostly beefy.

After doing heaps of serious/extreme(?) stuff one of my cv's started clicking under strain at 60k and so i replaced it. It is said that it is easier to replace a cv than a diff so upgraded cv's are not particularly recommended. Amaroks have done Dakar, they are mostly pretty tough.

The std rok front bar isnt suitable for serious offroading although many try, but it seems that many defender owners replace the front bar anyway, putting both cars in the same boat.

Sill protection is basically a must if you want to get serious.

I have run the car up to gvm but not over and first gear in the auto has done the job, but reverse in the auto is another story. The manual has low range, but the auto impresses people offroad when they drive it.

I would not be happy with a Puma no matter what i did with it because of certain fundamentals. The car has some great features that i cherish, but overall doesnt stack up to my fussy standards...

[rammypluge]

The rocks arent big, and my tyre pressures were fully inflated, but it gives some insight of what its like...

Climbing a bank of Lake Brindegolly (6) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/rqrD5wmXDA8)

[The front suspension is a tad more compliant now since that vid. It has evolved over three years to a point where i dont see it changing. I dont think any german engineers had that opportunity.]

[rick130]

The Amarok has 9" of front travel, and just with slightly longer rear shocks mine has 15" of rear travel, the total of which is similar to a defender.9" and 15" between bump stops?

Not looking at that cross axled photo earlier. ;)

And that's unbalanced anyway, but we're getting into a whole other world there.

[AllTerr]

Stolen from Facebook page:


It seems Jamie Oliver doesn't have an issue with the new Disco.....

Inside Jamie Oliver's amazing Land Rover Discovery kitchen | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-4951024/Inside-Jamie-Oliver-s-amazing-Land-Rover-Discovery-kitchen.html)

[ozscott]

Well Jamie would know a good offroader...

Cheers

[loanrangie]

Well Jamie would know a good offroader...

Cheers
Those woolies car parks can be rough you know.[emoji14]

[scarry]

Well Jamie would know a good offroader...

Cheers

Love his taste when it comes to hubcaps:eek2:

Maybe LR should add them to the options list..........[bigsad]

[scarry]

So is there any more info about the new defender? [emoji39]


Geez,we are nearly back on topic.........

:banana:

[rammypluge]

9" and 15" between bump stops?

Not looking at that cross axled photo earlier. ;)

And that's unbalanced anyway, but we're getting into a whole other world there.
The D3/4 has 9" at the front and 13" at the back.

Rhett's Automotive, flex track, Loveday 4x4 Adventure Park - YouTube (https://youtu.be/TT56RhLYFik)

The front flexes better now that it did at the time of that video.

[ozscott]

Backs good...cause it's a beam.

Cheers

[rammypluge]

Backs good...cause it's a beam.

CheersIndependent is better, its just that manufacturers do a compromised job of it. I dont really know why. Hence why my next vehicle will be a custom.

[fitzy]

I’ll have a glass of what that blokes having please

[rar110]

Rammy my 110 would have idled over that section where the perentie struggled. Id put my mortgage on it.

I have a front Trutrac. It makes all the difference.

[ozscott]

Rammy if it was better LR would not have spent a lot of money setting up independent suspension to simulate live axles. When your wheel is hanging down it is doing nothing for stability and traction on that side...you just can't get away from that fact no matter how much travel you get out of your IFS.

The more you lift an IFS the more you cane the CV joints. They are a compromise lifted.

Cheers

[1nando]

Yet to see a IFS 4wd comp truck....oh wait there must be a reason.......thats right; live axles articulate offering better traction and a smoother ride over rutted terrain.
They are a lot stronger and can be built even stronger to cater for ones needs. They carry more weight, hence why trucks are live axle. Live axle vehicles are much easier to lift and fit larger tyres. I could fit 35s on my puma with a 2 inch lift.
I had a lifted nav and it was excellent offroad however the 3 inch lift kept chewing suspension bushes and my cv's were running at a stupid angle , they held up but it was only a matter of time before they broke.
A true offroader needs live axles, its what the pros use and its tried and tested. If IFS was the bees knees then every comp truck would be IFS yet they all spend a fortune doing up live axle vehicles.

Im not having a go at you Rammy, im impressed by your rok. However the OP said how he was disappointed with the d5 and was waiting on the new defender, well i wouldn't buy a rok for one of the same reasons i wouldnt buy a d5 anf that is the lack of live axles. My idea of serious offroad has live axles as number one on the list, thats my opinion...

[loanrangie]

Any vehicle can be a serious off roader if you throw enough money at it, a near stock ROK being any good is laughable .

[rammypluge]

Meet the New Humvee: The Oshkosh JLTV Coming Soon To Your Local Army Base - YouTube (https://youtu.be/mOwqzbH1-kU)

[rammypluge]

If you create two vehicles exactly the same, except one has live axles and one has independent, to give both the same flex and the same body roll during cornering, the vehicle with live axles will need stiffer coils or anti-roll bars, because of the narrower platform of the spring attachment points. These stiffer coils or anti-roll bars will exactly diminish the increased tendency for flex and more equal ground pressures that the live axles would otherwise give.

[rammypluge]

To put it another way, if you design a live axle vehicle so that with say a 1 tonne load the rear springs compress exactly 100mm, and you dont add anti-roll bars, and you dont make the coils any stiffer to reduce body roll, and if you then design an independent vehicle to compress exactly 100mm with 1 tonne of load, then the live axle vehicle will have more flex and equally more body roll. However, this is an unlikely scenario these days.

[PAT303]

I think vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate. Pat

[rick130]

The D3/4 has 9" at the front and 13" at the back.

Rhett's Automotive, flex track, Loveday 4x4 Adventure Park - YouTube (https://youtu.be/TT56RhLYFik)

The front flexes better now that it did at the time of that video.Not comparable, those numbers are how far it'll travel up a ramp, I'm taking actual bump/droop measurements between the bump stops.

[rick130]

I think vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate. Pat:rolling:

[rick130]

And FWIW I have no beef with IS, I reckon I could design a nice set-up, several lives ago I was paid to mod race car suspensions and geometry, you just need nice long wishbones, which reduces the CV angle which will always be the problem.

[scarry]

🍿🍿

:zzz::zzz::zzz:


Chocolate for me anyday.

[komaterpillar]

The D3/4 has 9" at the front and 13" at the back.

Rhett's Automotive, flex track, Loveday 4x4 Adventure Park - YouTube (https://youtu.be/TT56RhLYFik)

The front flexes better now that it did at the time of that video.


That is laughable at best, super unstable, limited wheel travel and on a very mild track.

Amarok owners, always keen to shove their perceived superiority in the face of those that really don't care.

Amaroks now added to the list of vehicles I don't help

How many IFS builds do you see where a solid axle swap is carried out - ****loads - same can't be said for IFS swaps

[ozscott]

There is a reason people spend big money to replace IFS 100 series cruiser etc with live axle...

Cheers

Ps. Just an example

Live-Axle Conversions | 4X4 Australia (https://www.4x4australia.com.au/gear/1608/live-axle-conversions)

[Vern]

That is laughable at best, super unstable, limited wheel travel and on a very mild track.

Amarok owners, always keen to shove their perceived superiority in the face of those that really don't care.

Amaroks now added to the list of vehicles I don't help

How many IFS builds do you see where a solid axle swap is carried out - ****loads - same can't be said for IFS swapsThats a bit harsh, i own (well its my wifes) a rok, don't see me shoving its 'superiority' in anyones face! Also if my wife was stuck would you really refuse to help her?

[ozscott]

He would help. All LR driver's help the less fortunate. Cheers

[Vern]

He would help. All LR driver's help the less fortunate. CheersLuckily we are landrover drivers as well[emoji4]

[rick130]

If you create two vehicles exactly the same, except one has live axles and one has independent, to give both the same flex and the same body roll during cornering, the vehicle with live axles will need stiffer coils or anti-roll bars, because of the narrower platform of the spring attachment points. [snip]

Umm, no.
I could position the spring pickup point probably further out board with a live axle than a conventional wishbone with the coil mounted off the bottom wishbone.
If i used pushrods I can mount the pickup point as far outboard as possible on both setups, maybe marginally further outboard on a wishbone setup, and using pushrods the bottom wishbone doesn't need to be as beefy, although with an off-roader we need it to be strong to cope with rocks.
Wishbone length is a real compromise as chassis and important things like an engine and ancillaries get in the way, and we still have the issue of CV angles due to short shafts

Road vs Off road is always a compromise, the only way to make something handle on road with minimal roll and still articulate off road is with something like active suspension, Land Rovers ACE or current pneumatic system or a Kinetic style system.

Live axles have worse ride on road due to the much, much greater unsprung weight, and this affects road holding too, and we have things like inherent shimmy to control, but it's the unsprung weight thing that helps off road.

[PAT303]

:rolling:

Biggest thread drift ever Rick.

[Zeros]

Apart from the Amarok detour, I'm enjoying the discussion. The D5 has IFS. Will the next Defender have IFS? or stick with the most robust and effective live axle? If you're disappointed with the D5, what's the alternative? It's a valid discussion, especially in the context of all Land Rovers being IFS SUV's.

[PAT303]

What all the live axle guys are forgetting is that to have long wheel travel you need long supple suspension,which means you compromise your high speed handing,weight carrying and towing.For me,I tow and tour over great distances so wheel travel is way down the list.Everything a compromise. Pat

[ozscott]

Agreed Pat. It's all about what's important to the owner.

Cheers

[DeanoH]

So buy a Disco 5 with IFS, cupholders, -ve ion generator and (without electronics) about as off road capable as a Hyundai Getz [bigsmile1]. Didn't LR just showcase its outstanding outback towing characteristics by towing a 6 trailer, 110 plus tonne road train up the Stuart Highway ? Bloody marvelous. [bigsmile]

But if what's needed is a vehicle that actually approaches the capability of a 40 year old Land Rover (RRC) then well, I live in hope that Land Rover can come up with a vehicle to replace the Defender that is as off road capable as the one they developed 40 years ago. But I'm not holding my breath. [bigwhistle]

Deano :)

[rammypluge]

Not comparable, those numbers are how far it'll travel up a ramp, I'm taking actual bump/droop measurements between the bump stops.230mm on the rear from memory, but the bumpstops are large with large voids, so you need to add the voids. The bumpstops are so progressive its hard to know if you have ever bottomed out.

[rammypluge]

And FWIW I have no beef with IS, I reckon I could design a nice set-up, several lives ago I was paid to mod race car suspensions and geometry, you just need nice long wishbones, which reduces the CV angle which will always be the problem.A significantly better compromise is possible.

[rammypluge]

Deleted already responded to.

[rammypluge]

Umm, no.
I could position the spring pickup point probably further out board with a live axle than a conventional wishbone with the coil mounted off the bottom wishbone.
If i used pushrods I can mount the pickup point as far outboard as possible on both setups, maybe marginally further outboard on a wishbone setup, and using pushrods the bottom wishbone doesn't need to be as beefy, although with an off-roader we need it to be strong to cope with rocks.
Wishbone length is a real compromise as chassis and important things like an engine and ancillaries get in the way, and we still have the issue of CV angles due to short shafts

Road vs Off road is always a compromise, the only way to make something handle on road with minimal roll and still articulate off road is with something like active suspension, Land Rovers ACE or current pneumatic system or a Kinetic style system.

Live axles have worse ride on road due to the much, much greater unsprung weight, and this affects road holding too, and we have things like inherent shimmy to control, but it's the unsprung weight thing that helps off road.With independent, what is called the "wheel rate", the rate of the suspension at the wheel, at the tyre tread at the ground, is always proportionate to the spring rate, whether it is mounted on a wishbone or via a pushrod.

In contrast, unless you mount the coils on a solid axle directly in line with the centre of the tyres, there will be different effects to independent.

[PAT303]

So buy a Disco 5 with IFS, cupholders, -ve ion generator and (without electronics) about as off road capable as a Hyundai Getz [bigsmile1]. Didn't LR just showcase its outstanding outback towing characteristics by towing a 6 trailer, 110 plus tonne road train up the Stuart Highway ? Bloody marvelous. [bigsmile]

But if what's needed is a vehicle that actually approaches the capability of a 40 year old Land Rover (RRC) then well, I live in hope that Land Rover can come up with a vehicle to replace the Defender that is as off road capable as the one they developed 40 years ago. But I'm not holding my breath. [bigwhistle]

Deano :)

You get a RRC and I get a D5 and we'll see who goes further in the bush,I've got a sat phone you can borrow. Pat

[rammypluge]

You get a RRC and I get a D5 and we'll see who goes further in the bush,I've got a sat phone you can borrow. PatIf a subframe drop on the D5 is possible, combine that with longer wishbones and bigger tyres, and it will beat a RRC, as long as the rest of it keeps working.

[PAT303]

Rubbish,a stock D5 would leave a stock RRC behind,and use less fuel,be more comfortable,safer,faster etc while it does it. Pat

[Zeros]

You get a RRC and I get a D5 and we'll see who goes further in the bush,I've got a sat phone you can borrow. Pat

That would be a great comparo over a period of 2 years, entirely in northern Australia, with one rider - the D5 must be out of warranty and no LR assist. [bigwhistle]

[fitzy]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/212.jpg
Pretty stock rangie classics won outback challenge 4 times.
I couldn’t see a D5 getting through a stage with years of forward development

[rar110]

This thread reminds me of a skit from Life of Brian.
we should be united against the common enemy - the judean people's front! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/kHHitXxH-us)

[DeanoH]

Rubbish,a stock D5 would leave a stock RRC behind,and use less fuel,be more comfortable,safer,faster etc while it does it. Pat

To a certain extent you're correct Pat. Peoples expectation of 'what's important' in a modern 4WD has changed. 'Off Road' no longer means, well, off road, it now means off the bitumen road.
So as long as the 'off road' vehicle can tow the van up the wet track from Melrose or be able to get in and out of the footy/soccer ground or up to the Chalet in winter or traverse the GRR in summer it is an 'off road' vehicle. [bigsmile1]
It's really enough to make an actual 'off road' traveler laugh. I'd take my old RRC anywhere both on and off road even with its petrol powered and other limitations but I would rather take it through the desert or serious off road terrain with more certainty of getting to the other end in one piece than an electronic marvel with no native off road capability. Sure they might work OK with all the complex electronics operating to spec, but rip an abs sensor out or the computer has a hissy fit or your electronic marvel is 10 years old and inherently unreliable and you're 2000 km from anyone that has a clue how the system works let alone how to fix it. I'd gladly lend you my carrier pigeons to summon help. [bigsmile1]

Sorry Pat, call me a dinosaur, but I just can't take our modern SUV 'off road' 4WD vehicles seriously. [bigsad]

I eagerly await the new Defender and will be interested to see if it's just another psuedo 'ruggedised' SUV or a serious off road vehicle.

Deano :)

[komaterpillar]

Wow these ***** make my head hurt.

[PAT303]

That would be a great comparo over a period of 2 years, entirely in northern Australia, with one rider - the D5 must be out of warranty and no LR assist. [bigwhistle]

What, like I did with my D1, L322 Range Rover, TDCi Defender [thumbsupbig]. Pat

[PAT303]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/212.jpg
Pretty stock rangie classics won outback challenge 4 times.
I couldn’t see a D5 getting through a stage with years of forward development

Smithy's Rangie wasn't stock. Pat

[PAT303]

To a certain extent you're correct Pat. Peoples expectation of 'what's important' in a modern 4WD has changed. 'Off Road' no longer means, well, off road, it now means off the bitumen road.
So as long as the 'off road' vehicle can tow the van up the wet track from Melrose or be able to get in and out of the footy/soccer ground or up to the Chalet in winter or traverse the GRR in summer it is an 'off road' vehicle. [bigsmile1]
It's really enough to make an actual 'off road' traveler laugh. I'd take my old RRC anywhere both on and off road even with its petrol powered and other limitations but I would rather take it through the desert or serious off road terrain with more certainty of getting to the other end in one piece than an electronic marvel with no native off road capability. Sure they might work OK with all the complex electronics operating to spec, but rip an abs sensor out or the computer has a hissy fit or your electronic marvel is 10 years old and inherently unreliable and you're 2000 km from anyone that has a clue how the system works let alone how to fix it. I'd gladly lend you my carrier pigeons to summon help. [bigsmile1]

Sorry Pat, call me a dinosaur, but I just can't take our modern SUV 'off road' 4WD vehicles seriously. [bigsad]

I eagerly await the new Defender and will be interested to see if it's just another psuedo 'ruggedised' SUV or a serious off road vehicle.

Deano :)

Deano, I've never had a single problem with my modern vehicles in all my outback travel's,but I've met heaps of people with old mechanical vehicles that have.If you get stuck in the bush with a major fault your in trouble,a stuffed water pump bearing,split hose or a collapsed wheel bearing will make any vehicle a desert ornament.It doesn't matter what your drive,it's all about the 5 P's before your go, and the use of common sense once you get there. Pat

[rick130]

With independent, what is called the "wheel rate", the rate of the suspension at the wheel, at the tyre tread at the ground, is always proportionate to the spring rate, whether it is mounted on a wishbone or via a pushrod.

In contrast, unless you mount the coils on a solid axle directly in line with the centre of the tyres, there will be different effects to independent.No, wheel rate is wheel rate.
It doesn't matter a damn whether it's independent, swing, or a beam.
It's easily calculated unless you design a rising rate system, which is a little more complicated to work out, or it can be easily measured.

Bushing design complicates it in all systems, sometimes the bushes are designed to have a certain amount of compliance and can add significantly to roll stiffness, think of an RRC/D1 radius arm front end vs a Deefer, the RRC/D1 use tripple shell bushes which increase roll stiffness significantly, and sometimes it isn't by design either I'd reckon!

Anti roll bars are another complication, adding to single wheel wheel rate and obviously roll resistance.
Their dynamic consideration is lateral load transfer and longitudinal load transfer diagonally across the chassis.

Then we can have anti dive, anti squat, which can change compliance significantly, depending on %'s used in our geometry.
E.g. start lifting the rear of a Deefer/D1/RRC and anti-squat increases significantly which can really impact climbing on rock steps, etc.
Most people that lift a vehicle aren't aware of this.

Roll centres are a dynamic consideration changing longitudinal load transfer as the vehicle rolls.
They won't affect compliance/articulation.

Its significantly harder to redesign a good compromise with a factory independent suspension and not totally **** it all up.
IMO most engineers don't grasp all the conflicting dynamics involved, crunching raw data and dynamic concepts are different, and then it all comes down to which areas are important to the end user and which areas we want to compromise.

Live axles with a kinetic type suspension system would be my ideal, although one day I really want to use custom dampers and driver selectable anti roll bar disconnects, because I many be able to afford that!
There's a couple of shock absorber tricks I learnt many years ago that I don't think have been exploited on a road going 4wd yet.
But they may not work either!

[rick130]

Rubbish,a stock D5 would leave a stock RRC behind,and use less fuel,be more comfortable,safer,faster etc while it does it. PatBut how cool is a really nice 2 door RRC! [emoji1]

[rammypluge]

Deano, I've never had a single problem with my modern vehicles in all my outback travel's,but I've met heaps of people with old mechanical vehicles that have.If you get stuck in the bush with a major fault your in trouble,a stuffed water pump bearing,split hose or a collapsed wheel bearing will make any vehicle a desert ornament.It doesn't matter what your drive,it's all about the 5 P's before your go, and the use of common sense once you get there. PatIn some ways thats fine if the vehicle isnt too old, but if you do that with an older one . . .
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/238.jpg

[rammypluge]

No, wheel rate is wheel rate.
It doesn't matter a damn whether it's independent, swing, or a beam.
It's easily calculated unless you design a rising rate system, which is a little more complicated to work out, or it can be easily measured.

Bushing design complicates it in all systems, sometimes the bushes are designed to have a certain amount of compliance and can add significantly to roll stiffness, think of an RRC/D1 radius arm front end vs a Deefer, the RRC/D1 use tripple shell bushes which increase roll stiffness significantly, and sometimes it isn't by design either I'd reckon!

Anti roll bars are another complication, adding to single wheel wheel rate and obviously roll resistance.
Their dynamic consideration is lateral load transfer and longitudinal load transfer diagonally across the chassis.

Then we can have anti dive, anti squat, which can change compliance significantly, depending on %'s used in our geometry.
E.g. start lifting the rear of a Deefer/D1/RRC and anti-squat increases significantly which can really impact climbing on rock steps, etc.
Most people that lift a vehicle aren't aware of this.

Roll centres are a dynamic consideration changing longitudinal load transfer as the vehicle rolls.
They won't affect compliance/articulation.

Its significantly harder to redesign a good compromise with a factory independent suspension and not totally **** it all up.
IMO most engineers don't grasp all the conflicting dynamics involved, crunching raw data and dynamic concepts are different, and then it all comes down to which areas are important to the end user and which areas we want to compromise.

Live axles with a kinetic type suspension system would be my ideal, although one day I really want to use custom dampers and driver selectable anti roll bar disconnects, because I many be able to afford that!
There's a couple of shock absorber tricks I learnt many years ago that I don't think have been exploited on a road going 4wd yet.
But they may not work either!The wheel rate with independent is constant, excluding any anti-roll bar effects or other contrivances.

The wheel rate with a solid axle changes depending on whether only one wheel is moving by itself, or the wheels are moving in different directions to each other, or if both are moving upwards or downwards at the same time.

[rammypluge]

Anti roll bars are another complication, adding to single wheel wheel rate and obviously roll resistance.
Their dynamic consideration is lateral load transfer and longitudinal load transfer diagonally across the chassis.

Its significantly harder to redesign a good compromise with a factory independent suspension and not totally **** it all up.
IMO most engineers don't grasp all the conflicting dynamics involved, crunching raw data and dynamic concepts are different, and then it all comes down to which areas are important to the end user and which areas we want to compromise.

Live axles with a kinetic type suspension system would be my ideal, although one day I really want to use custom dampers and driver selectable anti roll bar disconnects, because I many be able to afford that!
Anti-roll bars only affect the wheel rate when both wheels arent moving in the same direction at the same time and speed. Which is most of the time but not all.

Fully independent with bose full active would be the ultimate, but dont expect them to answer your calls until you put a massive wad in their bank account (?).

[fitzy]

Smithy's Rangie wasn't stock. Pat

Rover v8
R380
Lt 230
Maxi drive diffs
Standard springs and shocks
chippa’s Rangie 2 obc’s
Rover v8
R380
Lt 230
Maxi diffs
Yes not stock, but pretty standard
That’s my point to those bagging RRC
As some have already noted good off road doesn’t seem to sell but flash does.
I’ll just drive everywhere on this flat earth with my rv8 and locked live axles, when it’s hot I’ll wind down the window

[donh54]

Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't one of the ideas behind Traction Control, that you didn't need massive wheel travel anymore?
The idea of huge amounts of wheel articulation was to maintain sufficient weight on the wheel to maintain some traction. ETC would seem to negate that need, would it not?

[Hoss]

Deano, I've never had a single problem with my modern vehicles in all my outback travel's,but I've met heaps of people with old mechanical vehicles that have.If you get stuck in the bush with a major fault your in trouble,a stuffed water pump bearing,split hose or a collapsed wheel bearing will make any vehicle a desert ornament.It doesn't matter what your drive,it's all about the 5 P's before your go, and the use of common sense once you get there. Pat

Hey Pat, excuse my naivety , but what are the 5Ps??

[Zeros]

Deano, I've never had a single problem with my modern vehicles in all my outback travel's,but I've met heaps of people with old mechanical vehicles that have.If you get stuck in the bush with a major fault your in trouble,a stuffed water pump bearing,split hose or a collapsed wheel bearing will make any vehicle a desert ornament.It doesn't matter what your drive,it's all about the 5 P's before your go, and the use of common sense once you get there. Pat

All true Pat, except we all know that the newer and more fancy the Landy, the less likely it is that a local mechanic will be able to / want to help.

But then I guess whoever can afford to take a $100,000 D5 across the country, can also afford to upgrade their vehicle before warranty runs out ...because the back to city base breakdown repair is becoming the only viable option in remote areas for newer vehicles. I'd hate to think what a flat-bed tow from somewhere in the Pilbara or the Gibson, to Perth would cost!

[donh54]

Hey Pat, excuse my naivety , but what are the 5Ps??

Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance! Ooops! That's 6 Ps, but you get the idea? [bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[DeanoH]

Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't one of the ideas behind Traction Control, that you didn't need massive wheel travel anymore?
The idea of huge amounts of wheel articulation was to maintain sufficient weight on the wheel to maintain some traction. ETC would seem to negate that need, would it not?

Traction control is a brilliant design concept, using the ABS sensors it senses when a wheel loses traction an applies the brakes to it so that the opposite wheel gains traction (in an opened diff vehicle). A very cheap electronic alternative to an LSD/locker whilst retaining the benefits of an open diff. But it does have its downside. Imagine going up a steep loose terrain slope in an opened diff LR with TC. As the wheels lift or spin the brakes are applied which is the last thing you need to maintain momentum, you will ultimately grind to a halt. There is absolutely NO equal to keeping all four wheels on the ground in off road driving, sure all sorts of fancy electronics can try to compensate but in the end they WILL fail with continual use and you're left with 'failure to proceed'. This is where the RRC absolutely shines with its open diffs and superb suspension travel.

Having said that, on my 2008 crossing of the Simpson Desert (in a D2a) I found that TC was working flat out in the afternoons. This was because the standard factory shocks had 'lost the plot' by lunchtime causing wheel lift (axle tramp) which would normally leave one 'high and dry' but the TC came to the rescue to compensate allowing forward momentum to be maintained :) With coil springs (which have absolutely zero natural dampening when compared to leaf springs) when you lose a shocker you lose drive on that axle unless you have TC (or a LSD/locker) to compensate. :)

Deano :)

[Zeros]

Yeah, traction control can be great in slow grippy rocky locations, wheel lift or hard base under mud. ...but I've been on a very slippery hill in my puma, traction control working crazy overtime on all four wheels, braking and actually preventing progress up the hill. Might have been better with just two open diffs and at least two wheels scrabbling for traction.

[DeanoH]

Deano, I've never had a single problem with my modern vehicles in all my outback travel's,but I've met heaps of people with old mechanical vehicles that have.If you get stuck in the bush with a major fault your in trouble,a stuffed water pump bearing,split hose or a collapsed wheel bearing will make any vehicle a desert ornament.It doesn't matter what your drive,it's all about the 5 P's before your go, and the use of common sense once you get there. Pat

Pat, we've all got our 'war stories' and you're right in that preparation etc is the key to successful traveling BUT with the examples you've given any reasonably competent person could diagnose the problem and arrange repair. I carry water pump, wheel bearings and hoses as these and others are common and predictable points of failure BUT with a modern SUV where the vehicle body needs to be removed to effect what would be otherwise a simple diagnosis/repair and when this is overlaid with complex electronic systems to achieve what was previously done with simple mechanical and easily fault diagnosable (if there's such a word) components the ultimate reliability of the vehicle is less than it's predecessors. I regularly travel in remote areas 'up your way' and you couldn't give me a modern LR for this purpose and this reason. I value my life far too much. [smilebigeye]

On my recent trip (Melbourne to Darwin via Ceduna and return) of 10,000 Km or so I came across two broken down vehicles. Both electronic marvels that had decided they didn't want to play anymore (nothing physically broken), a Hyundai SUV and an F350 whose computers didn't want to play anymore resulting in very expensive flat top trips to the coast and holidays ruined. The added complexity of these vehicles is just not worth the grief IMO which is why I'm a basically a TDi and Oka type person. :)

Deano :)

[Zeros]

...whatever happened to Land Rovers being 'field maintainable'?

[DeanoH]

...whatever happened to Land Rovers being 'field maintainable'?

That ended with the 300TDi, which is why they are the vehicle of choice for 'Expedition Vehicles'.

Deano :)

[plusnq]

Pat, we've all got our 'war stories' and you're right in that preparation etc is the key to successful traveling BUT with the examples you've given any reasonably competent person could diagnose the problem and arrange repair. I carry water pump, wheel bearings and hoses as these and others are common and predictable points of failure BUT with a modern SUV where the vehicle body needs to be removed to effect what would be otherwise a simple diagnosis/repair and when this is overlaid with complex electronic systems to achieve what was previously done with simple mechanical and easily fault diagnosable (if there's such a word) components the ultimate reliability of the vehicle is less than it's predecessors. I regularly travel in remote areas 'up your way' and you couldn't give me a modern LR for this purpose and this reason. I value my life far too much. [smilebigeye]

On my recent trip (Melbourne to Darwin via Ceduna and return) of 10,000 Km or so I came across two broken down vehicles. Both electronic marvels that had decided they didn't want to play anymore (nothing physically broken), a Hyundai SUV and an F350 whose computers didn't want to play anymore resulting in very expensive flat top trips to the coast and holidays ruined. The added complexity of these vehicles is just not worth the grief IMO which is why I'm a basically a TDi and Oka type person. :)

Deano :)

my question is, if you had to buy a new vehicle right now, what would you buy?

[Tombie]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/212.jpg
Pretty stock rangie classics won outback challenge 4 times.
I couldn’t see a D5 getting through a stage with years of forward development

Pretty stock my arse!

[Tombie]

In some ways thats fine if the vehicle isnt too old, but if you do that with an older one . . .
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/238.jpg

Or my tail won’t open on my:
D1
D2
RRC
Defender

All have done it....

[rammypluge]

Not only is traction control inferior to locked diffs, either way, decent articulation is still important. Articulation still gives improved traction and obstacle climbing, especially when hillclimbing, and it reduces instability and rollover risk. Have you seen the way vehicles with limited travel see-saw diagonally when crossed up? This see-sawing creates increased side angles and risk of rollover.

[trout1105]

my question is, if you had to buy a new vehicle right now, what would you buy?

Personally I would rather buy a late model D4 than the new D5, But that's just Me [bigwhistle]

[rammypluge]

Or my tail won’t open on my:
D1
D2
RRC
Defender

All have done it....Okay, but the fix for one is some WD40/jiggling/improvisation, and the fix for the other is a new solenoid from a distant capital city?

[1nando]

my question is, if you had to buy a new vehicle right now, what would you buy?Mitsubishi pajero. Its a tried and tested vehicle, probably the most reliable 4wd suv in Australia by far. The cvs are so strong from factory no one even bothers making a after market version. Dakar rally tested chassis, excellent engine and the price point makes it a no brainer. Fits the family comfortably, fits the bill as an excellent tourer and cheap to run.

2nd wouldnt be new but rather used d4.

[komaterpillar]

So much "read the facts not driven the tracks" goin on in this thread.
Pretty much sums up most of this forum....

[Tombie]

So much "read the facts not driven the tracks" goin on in this thread.
Pretty much sums up most of this forum....

Bit presumptuous [emoji6]

[plusnq]

Personally I would rather buy a late model D4 than the new D5, But that's just Me [bigwhistle]

Not a new vehicle.

[trout1105]

Not a new vehicle.

It would be to Me [biggrin][bigwhistle]

[rar110]

I have to agree the 300tdi is probably the best of the last low tech Land Rover. But after just spending a couple of hours on the Perentie trying to fix a really simple stop control unsuccessfully but finding very poor layout, rubbed through insulation, broken wires, and loose connectors, when compared to the better quality layout, connectors and electrics generally in even my 10 year old L322, the benefit of progress is very apparent. A dud stop control is not a show stopper IF you know how to overcome it. A bit like a fault on a modern Land Rover is generally not a problem if you have a IID Tool and know how to use it.

[fitzy]

Pretty stock my arse!


What was highly modified?
Stock rv8 with aftermarket ecu
Viscous fan
Stock gearbox
Stock transfer case
Off the shelf springs and shocks in standard mounting
Upgraded diff centres and axles

It’s not like a Pajero in the Dakar.

[DeanoH]

my question is, if you had to buy a new vehicle right now, what would you buy?

And a pretty good question too [bigsmile1]

At the risk of getting back on topic, how about the new Defender ? but that doesn't qualify as the question is right now.

The answer for me is that there is nothing new available on the market that meets my requirements and hasn't been for some time. [bigsad]

The problem isn't the vehicles so much, they're probably as reliable as they can be within the design life/criteria of the vehicle but IMO way too much reliance on complex electronics to be considered for serious and often remote off road travel. The issue that I grapple with is what I consider to be a responsible and safe 'manner' in which to approach remote off road travel. For me this means nearly anal pre trip planing and preparation, a thorough understanding of the vehicle and how it works and the tools/ability to diagnose and repair or if repair can't be made the ability to identify which specific components need to be obtained.
A simple vehicle makes this a lot easier but the days of simple vehicles is long gone.
Current methodology/culture seems to be to carry an EPIRB and press the button when the ashtrays full [bigwhistle] and pass the responsibility on to someone else. I'm old school and don't think this way and don't even carry an EPIRB though I do have UHF, HF and Satphone. :) .

This is an example of the sort of travel I'm referring to

www.oka4wd.com/media/kunena/attachments/776/2014TheGreatSandyDesertABRIDGEDsmall.pdf


(http://www.byles.net/www.oka4wd.com/media/kunena/attachments/776/2014TheGreatSandyDesertABRIDGEDsmall.pdf)sometimes as part of a group and sometimes solo.

Would you take a D5 on this trip with any expectation of it reaching the other end ?, hopefully the new Defender will 'cut the mustard'. :)

Deano :)

[AllTerr]

Would you take a D5 on this trip with any expectation of it reaching the other end ?, hopefully the new Defender will 'cut the mustard'. :)

Deano :)

I would.

[donh54]

The new Deefer will probably have close to the same electronic suite, so only time will tell.

[rammypluge]

And a pretty good question too [bigsmile1]

At the risk of getting back on topic, how about the new Defender ? but that doesn't qualify as the question is right now.

The answer for me is that there is nothing new available on the market that meets my requirements and hasn't been for some time. [bigsad]

The problem isn't the vehicles so much, they're probably as reliable as they can be within the design life/criteria of the vehicle but IMO way too much reliance on complex electronics to be considered for serious and often remote off road travel. The issue that I grapple with is what I consider to be a responsible and safe 'manner' in which to approach remote off road travel. For me this means nearly anal pre trip planing and preparation, a thorough understanding of the vehicle and how it works and the tools/ability to diagnose and repair or if repair can't be made the ability to identify which specific components need to be obtained.
A simple vehicle makes this a lot easier but the days of simple vehicles is long gone.
Current methodology/culture seems to be to carry an EPIRB and press the button when the ashtrays full [bigwhistle] and pass the responsibility on to someone else. I'm old school and don't think this way and don't even carry an EPIRB though I do have UHF, HF and Satphone. :) .

This is an example of the sort of travel I'm referring to

www.oka4wd.com/media/kunena/attachments/776/2014TheGreatSandyDesertABRIDGEDsmall.pdf


(http://www.byles.net/www.oka4wd.com/media/kunena/attachments/776/2014TheGreatSandyDesertABRIDGEDsmall.pdf)sometimes as part of a group and sometimes solo.

Would you take a D5 on this trip with any expectation of it reaching the other end ?, hopefully the new Defender will 'cut the mustard'. :)

Deano :)I had a scare in a semi remote area and i know exactly what you are talking about. The scare half ruined the holiday, researching getting the vehicle trailered back to base, all because of some severed wires creating canbus confusion, which thankfully didnt actually matter in the end.

[Tombie]

I had a scare in a semi remote area and i know exactly what you are talking about. The scare half ruined the holiday, researching getting the vehicle trailered back to base, all because of some severed wires creating canbus confusion, which thankfully didnt actually matter in the end.

Canbus is hardly voodoo...

A severed wire in general can result in the same thing.


I take it then none of you Fly, Use lifts etc.... all in case something goes wrong...

[veebs]

my question is, if you had to buy a new vehicle right now, what would you buy?

Must admit, the Pajero would be given a solid look. and i'm ashamed to admit it, but i'd also look at a 200 series i suppose (though admit it is a wildly different price position) - big, square-ish, strong.

[plusnq]

And a pretty good question too [bigsmile1]

At the risk of getting back on topic, how about the new Defender ? but that doesn't qualify as the question is right now.

The answer for me is that there is nothing new available on the market that meets my requirements and hasn't been for some time. [bigsad]

The problem isn't the vehicles so much, they're probably as reliable as they can be within the design life/criteria of the vehicle but IMO way too much reliance on complex electronics to be considered for serious and often remote off road travel. The issue that I grapple with is what I consider to be a responsible and safe 'manner' in which to approach remote off road travel. For me this means nearly anal pre trip planing and preparation, a thorough understanding of the vehicle and how it works and the tools/ability to diagnose and repair or if repair can't be made the ability to identify which specific components need to be obtained.
A simple vehicle makes this a lot easier but the days of simple vehicles is long gone.
Current methodology/culture seems to be to carry an EPIRB and press the button when the ashtrays full [bigwhistle] and pass the responsibility on to someone else. I'm old school and don't think this way and don't even carry an EPIRB though I do have UHF, HF and Satphone. :) .

This is an example of the sort of travel I'm referring to

www.oka4wd.com/media/kunena/attachments/776/2014TheGreatSandyDesertABRIDGEDsmall.pdf


(http://www.byles.net/www.oka4wd.com/media/kunena/attachments/776/2014TheGreatSandyDesertABRIDGEDsmall.pdf)sometimes as part of a group and sometimes solo.

Would you take a D5 on this trip with any expectation of it reaching the other end ?, hopefully the new Defender will 'cut the mustard'. :)

Deano :)

thanks for your detailed answer.

I do understand where you are coming from. I’m old school from when Petrol engines were still the primary engines in 4WD and things were simple enough that a bush mechanic would have a good chance of getting it going again even if in a reduced capacity. But those days are long gone. I miss some of the simplicity of the old vehicles, but I don’t miss their unreliability, harsh ride and lack of creature comforts for the 1000km journey to start my remote travel. I have a D4 these days and I can drive 12 hour days again and again if required. In the old days, I’d be scheduling lay days just so I could recuperate.

The appalling payload of modern vehicles makes them more difficult to kit out for remote travel imho. Payloads of 700kg before we add in long range fuel tank, bull bar winch, roofrack and second spare and suddenly we are over gvm before the missus and kids get in the vehicle. All the manufacturers are guilty of this in their wagons. I’d also like it if the engineers thought about remote travel when designing their limp home modes for new vehicles. Dropping to the bump stops or losing so much power you struggle to get off the beach makes life pretty difficult when it happens.

I dont think the new Defender will meet your needs either. There is the Iveco Daily 4x4 which has its own issues, but is still relatively old school with a good payload and some modern comforts. All the vehicles have compromises, we just have to choose which set of compromises we can live with. The manufacturers are only after the biggest market share so niche vehicles are less and less likely.

Safe travels. Cheers.

Shane

[DeanoH]

I would.


"You're a better man than me Gunga Din"

I'll look for bleached bones next time I'm out there. [bigsmile1]

Deano :)

[Tombie]

And again it turns into a Luddite festival of doom and gloom...

Strange how all the brands full of electrickery seem to make it home without the nightly news full of tales of death by technology in outback Australia... 🤡

[Zeros]

G Professional Wagon

[PAT303]

And again it turns into a Luddite festival of doom and gloom...

Strange how all the brands full of electrickery seem to make it home without the nightly news full of tales of death by technology in outback Australia... 🤡

We need to do a trip Tombie,I have minimal time for Luddites. Pat

[rammypluge]

Canbus is hardly voodoo...

A severed wire in general can result in the same thing.


I take it then none of you Fly, Use lifts etc.... all in case something goes wrong...Severed a few wires without realising, car behaved strange, windows wouldnt go up, a variety of dash warning lights, 60 trillion fuses to check, numerous battery disconnects, etc. Up to three mechanics, 2 days of headscratching, etc. So not worth it.

[tact]

We need to do a trip Tombie,I have minimal time for Luddites. Pat

I’m up for a bit of that action... [biggrin]

[Zeros]

It's remote area mechanics that are Luddites, not Landy drivers.

[rammypluge]

What has typically been of interest to me in a vehicle is the fundamentals; how stiff the chassis/monocoque is, the NVH, what the power and torque to weight is, the nature of the power delivery, interior space and comfort, body styling, fuel economy, off road ability, load carrying, value for money, etc. These in my view are what sets cars apart. The electrickery expansion hasnt won me over at all, but more than that, they are designing cars in ways that reduce the control of the driver, and that rubs me the wrong way something savage.

[Tombie]

Severed a few wires without realising, car behaved strange, windows wouldnt go up, a variety of dash warning lights, 60 trillion fuses to check, numerous battery disconnects, etc. Up to three mechanics, 2 days of headscratching, etc. So not worth it.

60 seconds with a scan tool and you’d have known the bus was damaged... would have saved 2 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes.

[emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

[Zeros]

60 seconds with a scan tool and you’d have known the bus was damaged... would have saved 2 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes.

[emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

If you know what a BUS is and how to fix it or ignore it.

[rar110]

When the Range Rover first appeared, the series owners were saying things like said in this thread. I spoke to Mal Storey before he sold up and said he wouldn’t rely on anything JLR after 1988. The new Defender 200tdi was rubbish, as was the 5 speed Range Rover. Interesting perspectives in the context of this thread.

[rammypluge]

60 seconds with a scan tool and you’d have known the bus was damaged... would have saved 2 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes.

[emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]Dunno, we quickly realised what wires were severed and rejoined them, but it still didnt work. I had checked the 60 trillion fuses and all seemed okay. So we were looking for other solutions, thinking of all those obscure possibilities, whether the car needed to relearn things, whether wires needed to have a certain resistance which would have been changed, etc. After much headscratching another check of the 60 trillion fuses found one popped. Replaced that and it ran but with almost a dash full of warnings and still windows not working properly. A scan tool cleared a few codes. Numerous restarts cleared the rest. So hard to believe they would design a system so vulnerable.

The wires were for the transmission. What have they got to do with the electric windows, airbag warning light, etc?

[Zeros]

Dunno, we quickly realised what wires were severed and rejoined them, but it still didnt work. I had checked the 60 trillion fuses and all seemed okay. So we were looking for other solutions, thinking of all those obscure possibilities, whether the car needed to relearn things, whether wires needed to have a certain resistance which would have been changed, etc. After much headscratching another check of the 60 trillion fuses found one popped. Replaced that and it ran but with almost a dash full of warnings and still windows not working properly. A scan tool cleared a few codes. Numerous restarts cleared the rest. So hard to believe they would design a system so vulnerable.

The wires were for the transmission. What have they got to do with the electric windows, airbag warning light, etc?

Very good questions. I often find that certain non-Luddites (software designers for example) complicate things unnecessry (because to them it's not complicated - even logical) ...if your transmission fails you want your windows down? Beats me!

I wonder how many LR designers have lived for years in remote areas?

[Tombie]

Shows neither of you understand how it works...

Transmission failing wouldn’t stop windows..
Broken wires did..

Is it all that different to an earth point failing and shutting down a vehicle? Not really..

What Can bus does do is un-complicate wiring. A single circuit can carry a lot of info and only a twisted pair is needed.
Easy to tap into as well, just hook in on the High and low line and you’re halfway there.

So your failure was a wire or 2 and a fuse.. seems very old school...


You claim IT people get it, but what about those who don’t get engines, gearboxes etc in general - this and many other forums are full of those types... they can’t fix a matchbox car , let alone a real vehicle.

[Tombie]

I wonder how many LR designers have lived for years in remote areas?

Probably as many Germans, Japanese and Koreans....

[Zeros]

Shows neither of you understand how it works...

Transmission failing wouldn’t stop windows..
Broken wires did..

Is it all that different to an earth point failing and shutting down a vehicle? Not really..

What Can bus does do is un-complicate wiring. A single circuit can carry a lot of info and only a twisted pair is needed.
Easy to tap into as well, just hook in on the High and low line and you’re halfway there.

So your failure was a wire or 2 and a fuse.. seems very old school...


You claim IT people get it, but what about those who don’t get engines, gearboxes etc in general - this and many other forums are full of those types... they can’t fix a matchbox car , let alone a real vehicle.

Spot on Tombie, we're not all mechanical, electrical or computer engineers. Some of us (many on AULRO) learn the basics because we enjoy it or need to, but we often rely on others who are experts.

...the issues are twofold:

1. Land Rovers are no longer built with field maintainability in mind. So not only is it more difficult to learn to do so, often it would be impossible due to the way vehicles are put together now. The tactics of the company is actually all about the customer returning to LR for all servicing, no public access to vehicle log books is just the start.... Modern vehicles may be more reliable, but they are are also far more complex, which means the scope of knowledge required to remedy a failure out bush has increased massively.

2. The professional expertise required to maintain such complex machines is now highly concentrated in city centres. Combine that with a significant reduction of regional LR service centres and the bizarre cultural/mechanical prejudice towards Land Rovers in remote areas of our vast continent and it's difficult for the majority of us whose expertise lays in fields of endeavour other than mechanical / electrical engineering to feel confident that their machine will reliably make the arduous journey. .

Thanks for beginning to explain Can-bus...

That's what this great forum is all about. Sharing all kinds of knowledge with each other, because we all have a lot to share and a lot to learn about all aspects of Land Rover ownership.

Cheers

[tact]

Spot on Tombie, we're not all mechanical, electrical or computer engineers. Some of us (many on AULRO) learn the basics because we enjoy it or need to, but we often rely on others who are experts.

...the issues are twofold:

1. Land Rovers are no longer built with field maintainability in mind. So not only is it more difficult to learn to do so, often it would be impossible due to the way vehicles are put together now. The tactics of the company is actually all about the customer returning to LR for all servicing, no public access to vehicle log books is just the start.... Modern vehicles may be more reliable, but they are are also far more complex, which means the scope of knowledge required to remedy a failure out bush has increased massively.

2. The professional expertise required to maintain such complex machines is now highly concentrated in city centres. Combine that with a significant reduction of regional LR service centres and the bizarre cultural/mechanical prejudice towards Land Rovers in remote areas of our vast continent and it's difficult for the majority of us whose expertise lays in fields of endeavour other than mechanical / electrical engineering to feel confident that their machine will reliably make the arduous journey. .

Thanks for beginning to explain Can-bus...

That's what this great forum is all about. Sharing all kinds of knowledge with each other, because we all have a lot to share and a lot to learn about all aspects of Land Rover ownership.

Cheers

I struggle to see the difference between:
- the need for specialised knowledge and tools to change out a collapsed wheelbearing, and
- the need for specialised knowledge and tools to change out almost any of those newfangled electronic sensors

Yet the view (not necessarily your's specifically Zeros, just the sentiment generally) is that the former falls into the grouping "designed for field maintenance" and the latter falls into the grouping "complicated and scary - not field servicable".

Holders of that generalised and rather luddite view need to reflect on when they had to tell a child that, if only they looked, they'd see there are no scary monsters in the dark under the bed. Failing that a ludderectomy may work.

Put differently:
- I can swap out/replace my Defender's engine ECU in 5 minutes, with one screwdriver and one spanner (both tools optional, improvisation possible). No loss of skin on knuckles, no burned fingers, no grease/oil on hands and 2 minute washup afterwards.
- I had to learn how to do the job. Bit of reading here and manuals. Bit of guidance from BAS. I got better/faster after every time I did it.
- I suspect that replacing many of the other sensors that would be lumped by luddites into the "not designed for field/user servicablilty" would be just as "hard" to manage.

Compare that to a simple job any luddite would say is easy, old school, stuff: Changing the oil in the transfer case:
- dead easy right? Pull the fill plug. Pull the drain plug. replace the drain plug. Fill to the level of the fill hole. replace the fill plug.
- just need a spanner and maybe a hand pump. washup also easy.
- (of course if you did the above on a TDCi you screwed up, overfilled)

[CraigE]

What has typically been of interest to me in a vehicle is the fundamentals; how stiff the chassis/monocoque is, the NVH, what the power and torque to weight is, the nature of the power delivery, interior space and comfort, body styling, fuel economy, off road ability, load carrying, value for money, etc. These in my view are what sets cars apart. The electrickery expansion hasnt won me over at all, but more than that, they are designing cars in ways that reduce the control of the driver, and that rubs me the wrong way something savage.
Yep and that is why the D5 is a bit of a fail already. I liked the D3 when it came out, so no issue there.
My list of items in a 4x4 (and it may change slightly when kids no longer travel with us)
1: 4x4 ability
2: Load Space (One of the major things that concerns me with the D5)
3: Ability to maintain and repair when 1000kms from anywhere (#1 on my list of things that concern me with the D5)
4: Fuel economy
5: Value / Price (#2 as pretty much out of the price range of most people)
6: Body styling (while low on the list will still play some part).
7: Manual vs Auto (getting less important though)
8: Diesel vs Petrol
9: Towing capacity and ability (not just capacity alone)
9: Can my wife drive it easily?
10: Servicing cost and cost of parts
I am sure the D5 ticks all of these except 2,c3, 5, 6, 10

With all that said it is likely if we buy a new 4x4 it will be a Colorado or similar as still affordable. The D5 is out new due to $. The other option is a Toyota twin cab V8 diesel but again new way too many $ for what it is. Maybe second hand D4 or RR but only if we can pay cash. The Colorado or similar makes sense as you can usually find one of them with 0% finance or around 2%. Buy a used car and it can be 10%-20% depending on finance, so can make a second hand car dearer than a new one in some cases.

[PAT303]

When the Range Rover first appeared, the series owners were saying things like said in this thread. I spoke to Mal Storey before he sold up and said he wouldn’t rely on anything JLR after 1988. The new Defender 200tdi was rubbish, as was the 5 speed Range Rover. Interesting perspectives in the context of this thread.

That's why I had no time for him,many on here thinks he's a LR god,I thought he had some good idea's but his ignorance and reluctance to accept change overroad everything he had to say. Pat

[PAT303]

Dunno, we quickly realised what wires were severed and rejoined them, but it still didnt work. I had checked the 60 trillion fuses and all seemed okay. So we were looking for other solutions, thinking of all those obscure possibilities, whether the car needed to relearn things, whether wires needed to have a certain resistance which would have been changed, etc. After much headscratching another check of the 60 trillion fuses found one popped. Replaced that and it ran but with almost a dash full of warnings and still windows not working properly. A scan tool cleared a few codes. Numerous restarts cleared the rest. So hard to believe they would design a system so vulnerable.

The wires were for the transmission. What have they got to do with the electric windows, airbag warning light, etc?

Without trying I could think of 50 situations were an older vehicle has stopped dead because of water in the dizzy,or cracked insulation causing a lose of spark,or the time I towed my mates 2H for 5k's trying to get the POS started because the glow plugs stopped working,or the time my other mates FJ45 wouldn't start because the condenser wire was broken inside the insulation,that was a good day and a half.The wire to the gearbox is an earth wire,every vehicle has one,and when it's not connected the system earths were ever it can causing all sorts of drama.Regardless of vehicle,it you have weird electrical issue's like the tail lights coming on with the blinkers or windows not working check the earths first,all of them,before you do anything else. Pat

[rammypluge]

My take on my situation is, if it wasnt for canbus, we would still have rejoined the five or six wires to the transmission, and checked the fuses, and if that didnt get it going, we would have checked the fuses again. It would have been fixed in hours, not days. Canbus just added a heap of confusion and the window problem.

If you went back further in time there wouldnt have been wires to the transmission in the first place.

But anyway, i am not a luddite, for example i think most technology is great including smartphones, green energy, etc. But all new things arent necessarily progress, or not at first. Its often more about how we use and manage technology, doing it smart and logically.

If they were designing cars for remote areas i expect they would do them differently if they cared. The whole premise of needing a code reader is a form of corruption. They could so easily have the information come up on the dashboard; 'Transmission wires non continuous', 'fuse number xx failed, go to fuse panel near right knee etc...'.

We know large corporations have more resources to be devious. We know they want us to get them to service our vehicles. I reckon they deliberately make some new vehicles awkward to service to discourage owners and non dealer servicers from working on them. Its a form of corruption and we are letting them get away with it. If we all placed more emphasis on these factors when making purchasing decisions would could possibly turn things around. They could easily make things a lot easier.

[veebs]

If they were designing cars for remote areas i expect they would do them differently if they cared. The whole premise of needing a code reader is a form of corruption. They could so easily have the information come up on the dashboard; 'Transmission wires non continuous', 'fuse number xx failed, go to fuse panel near right knee etc...'.

Sounds like a photocopier, where you get a step by step instruction on how to clear a paper jam. Of course, never once have those instructions been correct... In fact, usually you still need to wait for the office copier whisperer (the LR mechanic in this scenario) to come along and fix it...

I have no issue with the modern cars - in fact, i have far more chance of successfully clearing a fault with my iphone equipped diagnostic tool than I do changing a wheel bearing.

[DeanoH]

And again it turns into a Luddite festival of doom and gloom...

Strange how all the brands full of electrickery seem to make it home without the nightly news full of tales of death by technology in outback Australia... 🤡
Ha, ha ha ...................................

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

Fair go Tombie, just because some prefer simple over complex, especially when traveling in remote areas doesn't make them a Luddite it makes them sensible.[bigsmile1]

I suppose if I supported the 'No' campaign I'd be labelled as 'homophobic' or disagreed with the governments aboriginal welfare system I'd be 'racist' ?



AFAIK Land Rover has 1 dealer in inland Australia (Alice Springs) so a 'failure to proceed' often means a flat top to the coast and holiday ruined. Not everyone has the capacity (or interest) to own their own 'scantool' let alone how to interpret the results and apply a fix, [bigsmile1] and spare parts availability away from the coast is zero. I'm far more likely to be able to source parts for a 20 year old Perkins/Cummins powered Dana drive trained Oka than for any Land Rover. As was noted earlier your average outback mechanic is able and resourced to fix the more simple/common vehicles. I've lost count of the number of electrickery (to use your words) vehicles I've seen flat topped out of Birdsville for example and sympathise with the various familys' disappointment and expense.

There's nothing wrong with your electrickery vehicles. They're designed and made to meet a particular market and like most other 4WD vehicles can be modified to give some enhanced capabilities. But as a solid, reliable and remote seriously off road vehicle, only in the eyes of the most ardent rose coloured glasses owner. There's nothing wrong with this, it's not a put down. The Disco is made to fill a particular market and it does it well and with LLAMS, decent tyres and other mods and suitable training/experience it can go a long way. [bigsmile1] BUT, not far enough to suit my needs. What I want is different and is a fairly specialised market not generally catered to. There's a chance that the new Defender could meet or be adapted to meet this role. I wait with baited breath but not confidence [bighmmm]

Deano :)

[donh54]

How come some people will happily spend thousands on unnecessary extras, (big wheels and tyres, winches, every conceivable gadget hanging off the dash), but figure a Faultmate or Nanocom is not an essential part of their outback toolkit?
If you are taking any late model vehicle off the beaten track, some form of diagnostic reader (and learning how to decipher it's messages) seems like a no-brainer to me.

[tact]

Ha, ha ha ...................................

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

Fair go Tombie, just because some prefer simple over complex, especially when traveling in remote areas doesn't make them a Luddite it makes them sensible.[bigsmile1]

I suppose if I supported the 'No' campaign I'd be labelled as 'homophobic' or disagreed with the governments aboriginal welfare system I'd be 'racist' ?
[...]
Deano :)

Fair go Deano....
* Voting No - completely unfair to call you homophobic
* Disagreeing with Aboriginal Policy - completely unfair to call you racist


Calling out the strawman argument - am totally ok with you or others having a preference for simpler vehicles. Older vehicles. But if that preference is solely or even largely due to opposition to new tech:
* Sorry mate but it appears that by definition you are a luddite. Not an unfair call. [biggrin]


Dictionary def'n "Luddite"
derogatory
a person opposed to increased industrialization or new technology.
"a small-minded Luddite resisting progress"

[rammypluge]

In fact, i am so not a luddite in my view, that i had previously gone into the OBD2 port and altered a couple of settings.

It seems these days due to canbus, if you want to go 4wding, better take your laptop!!

[Tombie]

Firstly Deano,

Don’t drag some bloody political rights debate into a discussion it makes you look ridiculous.
Adding a comment on Government welfare makes you look like a Peanut...

Any remote travelling vehicle should be carrying tools and some fundamental spares.
This may be water pumps, hoses, filters, spark plugs, wire, rotor, distributor cap, wheel bearings etc.

Tools would be wire cutters/crimping, spammers, sockets, tape, cable ties, multimeter etc etc And should have a WS manual for good measure.

In the case of a later vehicle this took set needs a ScanTool and a few critical sensors. Nothing fancy, just the right tool for the job.

A failure at Birdsville can be no worse than an older vehicle... mechanical failures mean parts - simple... electrical sensors is parts replacement - again simple..

If they go “warranty recovery” over “pay mechanic to fix” that’s simple economics. After all your OKA doesn’t exactly have factory warranty anymore! Although for either you will need to wait for PARTS to be shipped in - won’t you!

So why would your OKA be needing the mechanic? I thought it’s so reliable it can’t fail.. not like the new ones which apparently are dropping like flies... so many you’ve lost count.. or did you run out of fingers and get confused? [emoji48]. You certainly won’t find a heap of old vehicles being trucked out, as proportionally there’s stuff all out there anymore...

I would (and do) take modern vehicles into seriously remote areas without a single concern... have for years... Don’t carry a Sat phone, epirb or HF...

Not once has any (multiple brands) vehicle ever let me down and left me stranded..

These modern units are solid, and reliable..

If they built it like a bread tin and fitted rubber floors I doubt this discussion would even take place...

Like people commenting on D5 being harder to maintain than a D3/D4 it’s all fantasy...

Seems to be that several who disagree with modern technology are those stuck in the era of Rose Coloured Glasses, Free Love and Doors music [emoji6]

[tact]

[...]It seems these days due to canbus, if you want to go 4wding, better take your laptop!!

Wot rot. I travel with iPhone and my BAS tool (plugs into OBD port and talks to mobile devices via bluetooth). Checks/resets faults and gives live data from sensors etc.

Haven't had to use it in the jungles at all in the 4yrs I have been driving my Defender. The only use it has ever seen is turning back to stock tune when leaving the vehicle with a service centre.

I used to worry about being in a situation where I could not disable the immobiliser in the deep jungle. (Lost or damaged central locking fob.) So I used to always bring a spare set of keys and place them with an accompanying vehicle. (Or secure them in a waterproof container strapped outside my vehicle cabin if travelling alone.)

A little less worried now that I have a working EKA code.

Remote area travel requires one knows their vehicle, and carries appropriate spares. A spare ABS wheel sensor and engine ECU may not be needed spares if you drive an ox cart.

[DeanoH]

Fair go Deano....

......................... Calling out the strawman argument - am totally ok with you or others having a preference for simpler vehicles. Older vehicles. But if that preference is solely or even largely due to opposition to new tech:
* Sorry mate but it appears that by definition you are a luddite. Not an unfair call. [biggrin]


Dictionary def'n "Luddite"
derogatory
a person opposed to increased industrialization or new technology.
"a small-minded Luddite resisting progress"



I'll have too look that one up [bigsmile1]

If you'd read my posts you'll see that at no time have I opposed new technology for the sake of technology. My position is that when traveling I reckon simple is better. [bigsmile1] Far easier to understand and keep a 'simple' vehicle going IMO. Generic parts (in the case of the Oka the whole vehicle is made from generic parts) can make it easier to source replacements if needed. And no I don't make any claims as towards the Oka's invincibility but it is a very simple and robust vehicle but it is also subject to the same mechanical failures as any other vehicle. The big difference when compared to a 'modern' vehicle is that there are no vehicle electronics apart from the speedo and tacho so the knowledge and skills required to keep it going is much less. Very similar to my old Defenders and early D1 in fact, just bigger :). This means less reliance on specialised skills that may not be readily available especially in remote or isolated places such as Birdsville and knowing that local expertise is sufficient to keep my vehicle (and holiday) going.

If I was a real Luddite (or just foolish) I'd travel remotely without HF, Satphone or EPIRB. Not to mention TPMS, digital camera, music system or laptop which all add to my traveling safety and enjoyment :)

No I am not a Luddite I just prefer to keep things simple, or should that be unnecessarily complicated ? :)

Deano :)

[Zeros]

The majority of the above are valid arguments and all relative to situation, knowledge, expertise, etc. But it's pretty clear that the more complex a vehicle becomes, the more there is to go wrong. The more spares you need to carry and the more knowledge you need to acquire. It's not about being a luddite or a dinosaur - it's about the fact that there is more to go wrong, more knowledge to acquire and less regional / remote service available.

...so has anyone driven a D5 out of the city yet? [tonguewink][bigwhistle]

[DeanoH]

Calling out the strawman argument - [biggrin]



I looked it up and though I can see your point I don't concede it, [bigsmile1] preferring things simple, as you say doesn't make one a Luddite.

I thought this a far better example of a strawman argument, not to mention(though I will)[biggrin]an "attacking the man and not the ball" argumenttoo [bigsmile]


Firstly Deano,

Don’t drag some bloody political rights debate into a discussion it makes you look ridiculous.
Adding a comment on Government welfare makes you look like a Peanut...



🥜

ps. at the risk (again) of getting back on topic, the lines are blurring for me of LR's market placement of an increasing range of Range Rover badged vehicles and the where the D5 sits and hope there's a more definite distinction with the much awaited Defender replacement. I hope it will be something more than a plastic fantastic rebadged D5 or whatever) to fit the US SUV market.

Deano :)

[Disco-tastic]

... a 'failure to proceed' often means a flat top to the coast and holiday ruined. Not everyone has the capacity (or interest) to own their own 'scantool' let alone how to interpret the results and apply a fix ...

For some people a 'failure to proceed' is a flat tyre. They've never (had the capacity or interest or) learnt how to change one, or how to safely use a jack. They just call roadside assist.

If you have any interest in saving your bacon when touring to any remote places, then you should have some interest in the basic workings of your vehicle, whether it be new or old. A scan tool isn't that expensive nor hard to use to fault find, and even if you dont have the capacity to fix the issue yourself, you at least have some idea of whats wrong when you're calling around to find a mechanic to work on it.

Even just knowing what a 'hard reset' can solve all sorts of problems...

[DeanoH]

For some people a 'failure to proceed' is a flat tyre. They've never (had the capacity or interest or) learnt how to change one, or how to safely use a jack. They just call roadside assist.

If you have any interest in saving your bacon when touring to any remote places, then you should have some interest in the basic workings of your vehicle, whether it be new or old. A scan tool isn't that expensive nor hard to use to fault find, and even if you dont have the capacity to fix the issue yourself, you at least have some idea of whats wrong when you're calling around to find a mechanic to work on it.

Even just knowing what a 'hard reset' can solve all sorts of problems...

You're right of course, and without the requisite skills the trick being finding a competent (and willing) mechanic to work on it. :)

Several years ago I owned a mid 90's Jeep Cherokee. Its ECU could display fault codes on the speedo display which was a boon to fault isolation. Crude but effective. As someone mentioned earlier and with the plethora of LCD displays and such and computerisation in modern vehicles it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a more modern version.

Deano :)

[PAT303]

It's a shame people argue a point based on what they believe is right instead of the truth, which, unfortunately turns threads like this one into pointless crap. Pat

[Tombie]

If I was a real Luddite (or just foolish) I'd travel remotely without HF, Satphone or EPIRB. Not to mention TPMS, digital camera, music system or laptop which all add to my traveling safety and enjoyment :)

Deano :)

Cute!!!

It’s been risk assessed to travel without the top 3...
Why? Because they’re a waste of money in many instances. And often not useful for the circumstances proposed to need them for.

I too keep some things simple - I give a detailed itinerary, check in when travelling and have an action plan in place..

Let’s assume you travel alone:
Firstly - unless you carry your PLB on your person it’s useless - heart attack - you’ll never get to it, and you’ll be dead before they arrive.

Similarly for HF and Satphone..

Assuming snake bite - you may be ok if you’re fit and know how to deal with it correctly; running back to the vehicle will likely not have that result! A mechanical issue or injury - simple; if I don’t check in when expected the plan cuts in... easy...


All nice to have but completely unnecessary when travelling alone...

Do you carry a spare of each in case the electrickery inside decides to spontaneously fail? [emoji48]


I spent ages working solo remote, and the remoteness was the least of the challenges...

[1nando]

Guys can we get back on topic please?

I think its fair to say that everyone has a different opinion and idea of what "offroad" means to them.
My idea of "serious offroad" may or may not be different to yours and as a result I've built my vehicle to address the weak points it has when tackling my idea of "offroad".

"Offroad" to me means:

- approach angles, traversing and break over angles must be excellent.

- all corners of the vehicle must be easily protected from damage or impact when traveling through deep ruts with high banks for example.

- a decent to excellent payload with a cargo area that is both practicle and efficient

- solid axles and large tyres with a excellent side wall and large footprint (ie 255/85/16)

- lockers both front and rear

- decent fuel economy

- comfortable. It might be hard to believe for some but my defender has a extremely comfortable seating position. Im 6ft and have had spinal surgery and i dont get any back pain driving my truck over long journeys.

- the ability to see all corners of my vehicle eaily

The points above are important to me, i need my truck to be able to give me the ability to tour comfortably but also go out and keep up (usually show up) with Patrols and cruisers on 35s and 37s on track days for example. My truck is a "truck", its a purpose built vehicle that i have fun in and more importantly have confidence in. I can confidently tackle rutted terrain with high side banks and not risk panel damage.

The d5 for me does not meet my criteria.

Now ill wait for someone to tell me that my idea of "offroad" is wrong and that i should be driving a d5 if i wanted a serious offroader . [emoji16]

[rammypluge]

How come some people will happily spend thousands on unnecessary extras, (big wheels and tyres, winches, every conceivable gadget hanging off the dash), but figure a Faultmate or Nanocom is not an essential part of their outback toolkit?
If you are taking any late model vehicle off the beaten track, some form of diagnostic reader (and learning how to decipher it's messages) seems like a no-brainer to me.Well, in my case, apart from this 'new' development being something some people have to catch up with, i havent had any issues that would warrant a code reader per se. Any issues that have happenned have been diagnosable and solvable separate to canbus. All the issues i have had that might warrant the extra kit have been with canbus itself, creating unnecessary and confusing signals. So its a double whammy to have to carry a laptop and cable just to inform myself on what spastic situation canbus has gotten itself into this time.

The idea that big tyres and some other accessories are unecessary just says you are either inexperienced, dont look for challenges, or drive a banger that you dont care about damaging. I agree some or many overdo it, but its often just as much about preventing damage to the vehicle as making it more capable. Off road enough and damage can accumulate and cost more and cause more issues than prevention.

[Tombie]

Hardly on topic then!!!

We get it... you’re a Defender fan... Well, we’re on our 2nd Defender and 4th Discovery.. and a fan of both...

Your post (a good post on what YOU want in your vehicle) would be more for a thread entitled “What’s your perfect off-roader” (which there are similar ones in this forum some time back). Perhaps start one again - it would be AN EXCELLENT thread..




Better title(s)for this thread should really be:

-Let’s consistently slag off the latest LR offering.

-I don’t know how capable it is but it looks funny (so it must suck)

-I don’t know **** about electronics, they scare me like the boogie man therefore modern LRs are evil.

-Musings of a vehicle I’ve no idea about or understanding of.

-I’m a Defender fan only but I like ragging on the new Discovery.

-Reasons an Amarok is better than any LR.

-Luddites Anonymous (also known as “I don’t like ‘puters”)

-Let’s do the time warp again....

-Oh my, where did 1986 go?

-Straw men and their impact upon society and its ability to provide effective governance with regards to the affordability of simple mechanical off roaders suited to Persons of different gender preference or race.

[1nando]

Tombie i agree that it would be a good post topic. In saying that ive had a look at the d5 and a few things turn me off straight away.
The body does not lend itself to be pushed through tuff terrain. It has large panels and to me is extremely "bulky". Almost like a d4 that hit the gym and put on some size. Its a big car when you actually get close up to it.

The tappering roof is ridiculous. This is a result of LR trying to make the vehicle more pleasing to the eye rather than practical. The d4 is much more practical in this regard. The boot space is.....well its a box. Good place to store stuff, the d5 has a lot of space but a lot of it is not practical.
The wheels and tyres....really? Why can't LR offer a base model with 17s and decent tyres?
Sitting in a d4 you have a fairly good idea of all four corners of the vehicle, in a defender its excellent. In a d5 with a bulky body and a tappering roof with "squinting" windows i dont think id have a good idea of where my rear is in regards to obstacles.

They're a few points that instantly caught my eye when i examined one parked up next to my work. Dont get me wrong its a great looking vehicle, looks comfortable and no doubt is full of leading edge technology....but in regards to the OP it doesn't convince me either.
I love my LR, i love LR's slogan and LR's amazing history. LR used to me more than just a car manufacturer, they were the quintessential "offroad" vehicle. I fear that LR is now the quintessential "luxury" vehicle. The rugged conquering image has gone. I love luxury and technology and admire LR's ability to be at thr forefront of vehicle technology but its not for me im sorry.

[Tombie]

Strange.. LRs image has always been the quintessential “luxury adventure” vehicle (RR)

The Defender style had a following obviously as no-nonsense but little more...

Numbers vouch for the fact the Defender was always an also-ran in the company range..
The first series being a means to an end post war...

[1nando]

Strange.. LRs image has always been the quintessential “luxury adventure” vehicle (RR)

The Defender style had a following obviously as no-nonsense but little more...

Numbers vouch for the fact the Defender was always an also-ran in the company range..
The first series being a means to an end post war...That image is in Australia and a few other countries. I was born in Portugal and i have a lot of family in Spain, France, Brazil and Germany. If you were to ask anyone of my family members what LR stands for they would instantly reply: offroad, 4wd, adventure.....not luxury. These are markets that Toyota has never managed to dominate, when someone wanted a offorad vehicle it was a series or a defender!
Id imagine that Africa would be no different. Tells you a little about peoples idea of offroad requirements amd what LR stood for. Luxury to them is either Mercedes or BMW, German not British

[donh54]

...........The idea that big tyres and some other accessories are unecessary just says you are either inexperienced, dont look for challenges, or drive a banger that you dont care about damaging. I agree some or many overdo it, but its often just as much about preventing damage to the vehicle as making it more capable. Off road enough and damage can accumulate and cost more and cause more issues than prevention.

Very experienced, have done my share of challenging things, do care about my vehicle.
Picking appropriate lines, (even if that includes the so-called "chicken track"), walking an obstacle before driving it, being aware of the capabilities and, more importantly, the limitations of your vehicle, will often get you much further than horsepower up the wazoo and big gobfuls of revs.
In the time I have been driving, I've taken vehicles into, and out of, a whole lot of steep, rough, hilly, flat, wet, dry and hot and cold country.
Going off-road doesn't have to result in damage. Certain environments can require higher maintenance than others, and can place more stress on particular components, but again it comes back to knowing your vehicle and what strengths and weaknesses it has.
"As slow as you can, and only as fast as you have to" was some advice I got early in life.

[trout1105]

I can remember seeing my first disco years ago and thinking why on earth would anyone take that Bush, It's Far to "Pretty" for that malarkey [bigrolf]
So here I am thinking the exact same thing about the D5 and yet I will take my D2a anywhere without a second thought.
For Me the main reason I am not that keen on the D5 is they are far too expensive an outlay and IF I did buy one there is NO way in the world I would use it the way I do my D2a for fear of doing any damage to it.
The D5 May turn out to be another success story like all the previous Disco's and only time will tell if that is the case [thumbsupbig]

[Tombie]

Did you buy your D2a new?

[Zeros]

...interestingly this is the biggest thread by far in the D5 section.

Who likes the D5? and is buying one instead of waiting for new Defender?

Who has already purchased one for off road or remote area use?

I'd love to hear some rave reviews of the D5.

[rammypluge]

Wot rot. I travel with iPhone and my BAS tool (plugs into OBD port and talks to mobile devices via bluetooth). Checks/resets faults and gives live data from sensors etc.

Haven't had to use it in the jungles at all in the 4yrs I have been driving my Defender. The only use it has ever seen is turning back to stock tune when leaving the vehicle with a service centre.

I used to worry about being in a situation where I could not disable the immobiliser in the deep jungle. (Lost or damaged central locking fob.) So I used to always bring a spare set of keys and place them with an accompanying vehicle. (Or secure them in a waterproof container strapped outside my vehicle cabin if travelling alone.)

A little less worried now that I have a working EKA code.

Remote area travel requires one knows their vehicle, and carries appropriate spares. A spare ABS wheel sensor and engine ECU may not be needed spares if you drive an ox cart.I am not at all claiming to be expert in code reading or plugging in etc. However, one thing i have heard, is what if you have a fuel problem, and then need to reprime the system? You can do that with the right cable and a laptop, in my case anyway, but i expect not with a simple code reader/clearer. You would have to power the pump directly, which could be a pita. Modern diesels to my knowledge dont tend to have the manual priming pumps that older diesels had.

[rammypluge]

...interestingly this is the biggest thread by far in the D5 section.

Who likes the D5? and is buying one instead of waiting for new Defender?

Who has already purchased one for off road or remote area use?

I'd love to hear some rave reviews of the D5.Bump

[Bytemrk]

...interestingly this is the biggest thread by far in the D5 section.

Who likes the D5? and is buying one instead of waiting for new Defender?

Who has already purchased one for off road or remote area use?

I'd love to hear some rave reviews of the D5.


The Peoples D5 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l462-discovery-5-a/251911-peoples-d5-4.html)


Zeros, Lee had his D5 at Winter wombat when it was only a week old.... Fair enough he didn't dive into the bog holes with it.....but he wasn't scared to get it dirty, so there is at least one D5 owner that loves it and intends to use it for more than urban duties....... and it's not a poverty pack either... nice vehicle!

[trout1105]

Did you buy your D2a new?

No Mate, I've never had the quids to buy a new car.
I paid 10k for my 2004 D2a just under 3years ago and since then have spent probably another 10k on her fixing and repairing various things and adding some mods.
Even if I spend another 10k on her it will be less that I would loose in depreciation over a couple of years ownership of a brand new D5 and there is nowhere a D5 can go that the D2a can't and I own every single nut and bolt of her as well [biggrin]

[Zeros]

The Peoples D5 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l462-discovery-5-a/251911-peoples-d5-4.html)


Zeros, Lee had his D5 at Winter wombat when it was only a week old.... Fair enough he didn't dive into the bog holes with it.....but he wasn't scared to get it dirty, so there is at least one D5 owner that loves it and intends to use it for more than urban duties....... and it's not a poverty pack either... nice vehicle!

Great to hear bytemark. 👍

[ozscott]

Look I get the proud feelings of doing some great tracks with a completely stock vehicle. But the truth is when those tracks lose their appeal or you start having to get winched out etc then you go up in tyre size and do a lift. It's simple stuff.

Cheers

[Tombie]

No Mate, I've never had the quids to buy a new car.
I paid 10k for my 2004 D2a just under 3years ago and since then have spent probably another 10k on her fixing and repairing various things and adding some mods.
Even if I spend another 10k on her it will be less that I would loose in depreciation over a couple of years ownership of a brand new D5 and there is nowhere a D5 can go that the D2a can't and I own every single nut and bolt of her as well [biggrin]

Cool... but in a similar vein.... when a D5 is 10 years old it by comparison will be affordable as well [emoji6]

I remember how much the LRs cost me new, and all were majorly off road within 1,000km of ownership...

I own every single but and bolt on my D4... it’s been everywhere without issue... and having taken the very Modified D2 our against it.. I’d say it holds it own far better than most expect...

I’m still a strong supporter of the D2s. I really like them (there’s one in my driveway)

[ozscott]

Nice one Tombie.

Cheers

[Tombie]

...interestingly this is the biggest thread by far in the D5 section.

Who likes the D5? and is buying one instead of waiting for new Defender?

Who has already purchased one for off road or remote area use?

I'd love to hear some rave reviews of the D5.

I’m a fan - IF they can have Barwork up front...
So when A company releases a Winch Bar.. the order will be placed...

And offroad shots posted 48 hours after taking delivery... just like the D4 and D90 had [emoji6]

And when the new Defender comes out, same deal... and the 90 will go in the workshop [emoji48]

[Zeros]

I’m a fan - IF they can have Barwork up front...
So when A company releases a Winch Bar.. the order will be placed...

And offroad shots posted 48 hours after taking delivery... just like the D4 and D90 had [emoji6]

And when the new Defender comes out, same deal... and the 90 will go in the workshop [emoji48]

Will you buy a D5 Tombie?

[Tombie]

Will you buy a D5 Tombie?

See post above....

If someone develops frontal protection - yes...

Where I live and work I wouldn’t own anything without Bar work!

[tact]

I am not at all claiming to be expert in code reading or plugging in etc. However, one thing i have heard, is what if you have a fuel problem, and then need to reprime the system? You can do that with the right cable and a laptop, in my case anyway, but i expect not with a simple code reader/clearer. You would have to power the pump directly, which could be a pita. Modern diesels to my knowledge dont tend to have the manual priming pumps that older diesels had.

The 2.2l defenders have an electric fuel pump in the tank. The ECU has code in labelled “run dry prevention strategy” which pulls a series of stunts to ensure that pump never runs dry and needs priming (first the low fuel sound/lamp operates, then as fuel level reaches another lower preset volume the ECU fakes an engine “miss fire”, and if fuel goes much lower it tosses a “reduced output” phase and eventually will shut the engine down)

no laptop or scantool needed

Having a pump in-tank at all, and the smarts it’s wrapped in, is of course just another electrickery gizmo thing to go wrong and completely not user serviceable. Oh progress! Why do you hate humanity so and inflict these things upon us!?

[rammypluge]

I once heard a statement that if you cant realistically afford to buy a vehicle new then you cant realistically afford to buy it secondhand.

I think its a very interesting statement.

I imagine it more so applies to situations where the owner doesnt do their own mechanical work.

[Zeros]

The 2.2l defenders have an electric fuel pump in the tank. The ECU has code in labelled “run dry prevention strategy” which pulls a series of stunts to ensure that pump never runs dry and needs priming (first the low fuel sound/lamp operates, then as fuel level reaches another lower preset volume the ECU fakes an engine “miss fire”, and if fuel goes much lower it tosses a “reduced output” phase and eventually will shut the engine down)

no laptop or scantool needed

Having a pump in-tank at all, and the smarts it’s wrapped in, is of course just another electrickery gizmo thing to go wrong and completely not user serviceable. Oh progress! Why do you hate humanity so and inflict these things upon us!?

Yes, i've experienced the stage two simulated misfire, it's very effective. You only have about 30km from fuel warning lamp on to misfire. It's a great system, but one day out bush when the tank pump fails, there's no gravity feeding the donk with a funnel and hose like a 300tdi.

[plusnq]

I once heard a statement that if you cant realistically afford to buy a vehicle new then you cant realistically afford to buy it secondhand.

I think its a very interesting statement.

I imagine it more so applies to situations where the owner doesnt do their own mechanical work.


You need to apply a dollar value to your time to reflect a true economic cost. The opportunity cost of lost earnings whilst doing your own mechanical work is not usually accounted for by those who want to do their own work. That’s the true economics of the situation. Most of us who enjoy working on our vehicles don’t record that cost in the ledger.

[Zeros]

You need to apply a dollar value to your time to reflect a true economic cost. The opportunity cost of lost earnings whilst doing your own mechanical work is not usually accounted for by those who want to do their own work. That’s the true economics of the situation. Most of us who enjoy working on our vehicles don’t record that cost in the ledger.

Where that falls down is when your 'hourly rate' is significantly less than a mechanics hourly charge rate. Even if it's only $120 hr, that equates to a salary of $237,000 year. ...if I earned that much 😳 my opportunity cost would be on par. ...unfortunately when it takes 3-4 hours (average wage) to earn the mechanics hourly rate (which is higher in many cases) it's definitely a lot cheaper for me to do my own oil changes! 👍 ...but probably not to gain the knowledge over many years to efficiently diagnose and repair major issues.

[rar110]

The 2.2l defenders have an electric fuel pump in the tank. The ECU has code in labelled “run dry prevention strategy” which pulls a series of stunts to ensure that pump never runs dry and needs priming (first the low fuel sound/lamp operates, then as fuel level reaches another lower preset volume the ECU fakes an engine “miss fire”, and if fuel goes much lower it tosses a “reduced output” phase and eventually will shut the engine down)

no laptop or scantool needed

Having a pump in-tank at all, and the smarts it’s wrapped in, is of course just another electrickery gizmo thing to go wrong and completely not user serviceable. Oh progress! Why do you hate humanity so and inflict these things upon us!?

TD5 Defender and maybe D2 had a pretty notorious in tank pump. Many did a floor access mod and kept a spare in the car on trips as that was a show stopper.

[Vern]

Where that falls down is when your 'hourly rate' is significantly less than a mechanics hourly charge rate. Even if it's only $120 hr, that equates to a salary of $237,000 year. ...if I earned that much [emoji15] my opportunity cost would be on par. ...unfortunately when it takes 3-4 hours (average wage) to earn the mechanics hourly rate (which is higher in many cases) it's definitely a lot cheaper for me to do my own oil changes! [emoji106]Yep, most mechanics make $237k a year[emoji6]

[Zeros]

Yep, most mechanics make $237k a year[emoji6]

How did I know someone was going to say that? [thumbsupbig] Nice one.

Obviously not, but that's the opportunity cost for the home mechanic.

[tact]

TD5 Defender and maybe D2 had a pretty notorious in tank pump. Many did a floor access mod and kept a spare in the car on trips as that was a show stopper.

Oh - ok then I have to take the bit back about the in-tank pump not being user servicable (it was tongue-in-cheek anyway).

Its just back to the basics like "carry appropriate spares." [biggrin] (Though a luddite will still not agree - "its electrickery", because its not a funnel and a flagon of fuel on the bonnet) :)

[trout1105]

I once heard a statement that if you cant realistically afford to buy a vehicle new then you cant realistically afford to buy it secondhand.

I imagine that many doctors, lawyers and other high income earners would tend to agree with that But for the rest of us Not so much [bigwhistle]

[Zeros]

Oh - ok then I have to take the bit back about the in-tank pump not being user servicable (it was tongue-in-cheek anyway).

Its just back to the basics like "carry appropriate spares." [biggrin] (Though a luddite will still not agree - "its electrickery", because its not a funnel and a flagon of fuel on the bonnet) :)

...so the pump in the fuel tank is a computer now Neil? [bigwhistle]

[CraigE]

You need to apply a dollar value to your time to reflect a true economic cost. The opportunity cost of lost earnings whilst doing your own mechanical work is not usually accounted for by those who want to do their own work. That’s the true economics of the situation. Most of us who enjoy working on our vehicles don’t record that cost in the ledger.

Not sure I agree with that totally. Add the cost of dealer servicing and having any repair items not covered under warranty, down time of having the vehicle at a service centre, especially with Land Rover many kms from home, usually a day lost in the service centre. Arrive back at designated time to find they have not even started your service.
Most servicing can be done at home easily and really the only time a $ value comes into your hours is if it affects your earning capacity, so I don't count servicing. My next job working out why the head or head gasket has gone is one of those that will affect me so will be a cost. However if I put it into a LR dealer to fix could potentially cost me well over $7k. If I do it myself, maybe 2 days work max and around $3k max.
Then how many of us could actually afford a new HSE D5 or Range Rover. RR have the biggest depreciation of any vehicle eg what did a 2009 odd TDV8 Cost? Over $200k? Yet you can get them for $30-$70 k depending on kms.

[donh54]

Yep, most mechanics make $237k a year[emoji6]

Sadly they don't, but that doesn't stop the dealership from charging them out at that rate!

[rammypluge]

To make a fair comparison, you need to add the cost of tools and possibly space to store tools and conduct repairs to the vehicle.

Some people have harder access to increased income than others, who might just put their hand up for overtime.

[Vern]

So that new d5 is a disapointment, best to wait for the new defender?

[Roverlord off road spares]

Guys can we get back on topic please?

I think its fair to say that everyone has a different opinion and idea of what "offroad" means to them.
My idea of "serious offroad" may or may not be different to yours and as a result I've built my vehicle to address the weak points it has when tackling my idea of "offroad".

"Offroad" to me means:

- approach angles, traversing and break over angles must be excellent.

- all corners of the vehicle must be easily protected from damage or impact when traveling through deep ruts with high banks for example.

- a decent to excellent payload with a cargo area that is both practicle and efficient

- solid axles and large tyres with a excellent side wall and large footprint (ie 255/85/16)

- lockers both front and rear

- decent fuel economy

- comfortable. It might be hard to believe for some but my defender has a extremely comfortable seating position. Im 6ft and have had spinal surgery and i dont get any back pain driving my truck over long journeys.

- the ability to see all corners of my vehicle eaily

The points above are important to me, i need my truck to be able to give me the ability to tour comfortably but also go out and keep up (usually show up) with Patrols and cruisers on 35s and 37s on track days for example. My truck is a "truck", its a purpose built vehicle that i have fun in and more importantly have confidence in. I can confidently tackle rutted terrain with high side banks and not risk panel damage.

The d5 for me does not meet my criteria.

Now ill wait for someone to tell me that my idea of "offroad" is wrong and that i should be driving a d5 if i wanted a serious offroader . [emoji16]

Your correct with definitions of OFF ROAD it is different to each user.

[CraigE]

To make a fair comparison, you need to add the cost of tools and possibly space to store tools and conduct repairs to the vehicle.

Some people have harder access to increased income than others, who might just put their hand up for overtime.

Yep and how I justify buying tools and having a reasonable home workshop

[tact]

...so the pump in the fuel tank is a computer now Neil? [bigwhistle]

Mate, luddautism ( newly minted word, all rights reserved) knows no bounds. i.e. Not constrained to just "computers". Rightly extended to cover fear of things more complicated than funnels, buckets, gravity feeding fuel, and built-in manual priming options on fuel pumps - Luddautism must include things like electric in-tank fuel prime pumps and ... maybe even electric light bulbs.

I love the line in "Hey True Blue" that asks, "...will you tie it up with wire, just to keep the show on the road". But I reckon that if the singer were driving a modern defender somewhere remote and a wheel sensor died, and he had both tie wire and a spare wheel sensor in his spares kit - he'd have the (rather basic) knowledge needed to use the spare wheel sensor, and the sense to reserve the tie wire in case he needed it later to keep his camp chair functional.

[scarry]

So that new d5 is a disapointment, best to wait for the new defender?

Don't go there,we want to stay on topic......[bigwhistle]

[rammypluge]

I hear on the grapevine that LR want to make the next Defender the best expedition vehicle ever, and are currently debating the best form of engine bay access.[emoji6]https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/313.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/314.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/315.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/316.jpg

[Zeros]

I doubt anyone with 'Luddautism' would ever even buy a Land Rover...unreliable in every way don't you know?[bigrolf][tonguewink]