Ineos Grenadier, do you reckon it'll take off?

[cripesamighty]

An interesting take on one of the earlier Grenadier prototypes from an Australian perspective.

Ineos Grenadier - SEPARATING THE FACTS FROM THE HYPE - 4x4 A different Review! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg-BIZAMGYY)

[Arapiles]

New Ineos Grenadier prototype review | Auto Express (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/grenadier/355270/new-ineos-grenadier-prototype-review)

[Robmacca]

An interesting take on one of the earlier Grenadier prototypes from an Australian perspective.

Ineos Grenadier - SEPARATING THE FACTS FROM THE HYPE - 4x4 A different Review! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg-BIZAMGYY)

I watched that video the other day and even though I agreed with some of the stuff he discussed, but this vehicle wasn't designed for rock crawling (tech driving) that Stefan mentioned. Yes there is concerns in regards to fuel capacity; rear protection plate for the rear exhaust; the clearance of the mounts for rear trailing arms; Auto-Trans cooler mounted behind the front bumper, etc - but "some" of these things may be abled to be modified by aftermarket companies (or may not depending on sale numbers).
Seeing it first hand and realising that a longer dualcab version is on its way I personally think it will be a winner but also I reckon the price is going to skyrocket due to it's popularity & limited stock much like the 200series have done when it was coming to the end of production. I don't think we are going to big numbers of vehicles coming into Australia for quite some time as I was told that there will only be 200-300 vehicles coming to Aust this year.
Regarding the electrics under the rear seat - That will be finished off a lot better but in regards to electronics in that area - I don't think there is any but more fuse boxes and relays I assume?

[Xtreme]

According to the Grenadier staff at the Glenworth Valley drive day that I attended the most serious interest has come from the grey nomad/touring sectors. Not much interest at all from those who enjoy the 'technical' driving challenges - most of whom IMHO enjoy modifying and talking about their vehicles as much as, if not more than, actually driving them!

[4runnernomore]

How good does tha t look. That’ll do donkey that’ll do [biggrin]https://www.aulro.com/afvb/blob:https://www.aulro.com/9afd885b-9c44-45b6-baa7-21da2006152b
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/blob:https://www.aulro.com/5019090a-9c54-4f2c-8015-510db43a4b81https://www.aulro.com/afvb/blob:https://www.aulro.com/8d817a47-9c99-4cc1-a5db-0321edf46faa

[scarry]

OK,so who has put down a deposit?

Or is going to be asked for a deposit?

https://www.drive.com.au/news/non-refundable-5000-deposit-now-required-for-ineos-grenadier-no-road-testing-or-inspections-available/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=4a1a6904-141d-43c1-97e6-75a4357017b8

[Geedublya]

According to the Grenadier staff at the Glenworth Valley drive day that I attended the most serious interest has come from the grey nomad/touring sectors. Not much interest at all from those who enjoy the 'technical' driving challenges - most of whom IMHO enjoy modifying and talking about their vehicles as much as, if not more than, actually driving them!

I went for a ride in one at Berrimah. I went with a mate, we were both suprised by the lack of clearance underneath with the steering damper, rear suspension mounts and fuel tank quite low.
The supension felt harsh on the drive and the travel looks to be limited for a solid axle vehicle. The rear seating is hard and the seatback upright and the vision is limited out the side windows, I suspect it would be uncomfortable fairly quickly.
I agree with a lot of Stefan's comments and I think he is looking at the Grenadier more as a tourer than a rock crawler.

We both thought it was funny when the Ineos sales guy told us that keyless start and entry would complicate it too much and then we found out it has 32 ECU modules.

I hope they listen to the feedback before production and address some of the issues in the prototype. There are some good ideas but I won't be putting down my $5K deposit and want to see the production vehicle and drive it before adding to the list of 4x4s I would buy.

[chuck]

The $5000 deposit is a bit rich.

Bought my 79 series cruiser on $1000.00 deposit 12 months ago

When i was pricing defenders it was $2000 deposit and 12 month build.

Good way to lose sales particularly to those financing the car.

[scarry]

We both thought it was funny when the Ineos sales guy told us that keyless start and entry would complicate it too much and then we found out it has 32 ECU modules.

Still not as bad as the Defender,the manufacturer was boasting it had 85 PCB's.[bighmmm]
That is one of a few reasons to put me off even thinking about one

[Tombie]

Still not as bad as the Defender,the manufacturer was boasting it had 85 PCB's.[bighmmm]
That is one of a few reasons to put me off even thinking about one

You realise that anything even as simple as the circuit that controls interior dimming counts?

BT module is another one.

Add all the little bits and they add up. My D4 is a base model and it find about 70 modules.

Electronics very rarely fail in a vehicle - usually always something physical stops it. Other than an occasional glitch electronics are quite stable.

[Tombie]

I went for a ride in one at Berrimah. I went with a mate, we were both suprised by the lack of clearance underneath with the steering damper, rear suspension mounts and fuel tank quite low.
The supension felt harsh on the drive and the travel looks to be limited for a solid axle vehicle. The rear seating is hard and the seatback upright and the vision is limited out the side windows, I suspect it would be uncomfortable fairly quickly.
I agree with a lot of Stefan's comments and I think he is looking at the Grenadier more as a tourer than a rock crawler.

We both thought it was funny when the Ineos sales guy told us that keyless start and entry would complicate it too much and then we found out it has 32 ECU modules.

I hope they listen to the feedback before production and address some of the issues in the prototype. There are some good ideas but I won't be putting down my $5K deposit and want to see the production vehicle and drive it before adding to the list of 4x4s I would buy.

Strange. Hear a few comments on back seats yet I found them supportive and comfortable.

Rear vision is camera sorted - after all on a trip you cannot see out them anyway.

Ground clearance is minimum 250mm stock. Not too shabby. I’ve always found that regardless how high a vehicle - you can always find clearance +20mm obstacles regardless [emoji41]

[JDNSW]

Yes - nearly all the 'problems with electronics' are actually wiring issues or sometimes sensors of various types.

[scarry]

Yes - nearly all the 'problems with electronics' are actually wiring issues or sometimes sensors of various types.

With less electronics,there is less wiring and sensors to go wrong,i presume.

Less unnecessary complications also means less electronics.

[Robmacca]

Strange. Hear a few comments on back seats yet I found them supportive and comfortable.

Rear vision is camera sorted - after all on a trip you cannot see out them anyway.

Ground clearance is minimum 250mm stock. Not too shabby. I’ve always found that regardless how high a vehicle - you can always find clearance +20mm obstacles regardless [emoji41]

I've got to agree as well... I found the rear seats; leg room; arm rest room on the front/rear doors; front seating all great and comfy. At 6" I had no problems with room at all. The performance was impressive. Ground clearance is average but if u can fit higher profile tyres all the better.
My concerns are:
*Ad-blue
*Transmission cooler behind Front LHS Front bumper (Too exposed to getting clogged with mud, etc and possible damage)
*The Rear Trailing Arm support brackets seem to hang quite low and exposed to rock damage
*The Rear Muffler Shield seems to be a issue in regards to scooping up sand/mud. (The Ineos fella hinted at removing the East/West Muffler and fitting a Nth/Sth smaller Muffler which in turn would leave a area for a extra Fuel capacity).
* The Driveshafts use a CV type instead of the usual Uni joint - will this be an issue over time and the cost replacement - know idea
*Would have been nice to be able to fold the rear seats flat would have been good but not a big deal
*Is there enough room underneath to increase fuel capacity? It will be a while before any aftermarket manufacturer develops one in the short term...

just my thoughts

[Geedublya]

I've got to agree as well... I found the rear seats; leg room; arm rest room on the front/rear doors; front seating all great and comfy. At 6" I had no problems with room at all. The performance was impressive. Ground clearance is average but if u can fit higher profile tyres all the better.
My concerns are:
*Ad-blue
*Transmission cooler behind Front LHS Front bumper (Too exposed to getting clogged with mud, etc and possible damage)
*The Rear Trailing Arm support brackets seem to hang quite low and exposed to rock damage
*The Rear Muffler Shield seems to be a issue in regards to scooping up sand/mud. (The Ineos fella hinted at removing the East/West Muffler and fitting a Nth/Sth smaller Muffler which in turn would leave a area for a extra Fuel capacity).
* The Driveshafts use a CV type instead of the usual Uni joint - will this be an issue over time and the cost replacement - know idea
*Would have been nice to be able to fold the rear seats flat would have been good but not a big deal
*Is there enough room underneath to increase fuel capacity? It will be a while before any aftermarket manufacturer develops one in the short term...

just my thoughts

Front seats were great. Rear backrest too upright, set bases very firm, view out side window restricted by lack of side window height.
Fuel tank was hanging down at the same level as rear trailing arm brackets, brackets would be something that it would hang up on as it isn't a smooth transition.

I'd like the rear seat to fold flat as well but this isn't a big problem.

[SPROVER]

If I could afford a new 4wd I'd buy one of these. It ticks alot of boxes and looks great as well I reckon. Come on power ball. [emoji16]

[Tombie]

Front seats were great. Rear backrest too upright, set bases very firm, view out side window restricted by lack of side window height.
Fuel tank was hanging down at the same level as rear trailing arm brackets, brackets would be something that it would hang up on as it isn't a smooth transition.

I'd like the rear seat to fold flat as well but this isn't a big problem.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220316/800759c39e07a540adfd38ffbb01d3de.jpg

You mean the temporary tank?
With the huge Undamaged guard?

For a hard tourer this thing will be right up there.

A realistic look under an older Disco/Defender shows significantly more hang up points than the Ineos.

What isn’t really on Ineos radar is hard core crawlers - that’s not their market demographic.

As for back seat views - only the D3/4 fit that bill.
Heck I have to duck to see out the front side windows of our 90.

(And stop slouching in the seats, it’s bad for your back) tic [emoji41]

[Hoges]

Having read the previous posts I got to wondering about the Ineos...its stated clearance is 258mm.
On that note I had a bit of a browse at Car Ground Clearance, Specs and Info (http://www.groundclearances.com) There are detailed comparisons per the pull down menu is the top RHS of the home page.
What surprised me was that the 2017 LC 200 series (facelifted model) was 226mm (194-206 laden) while the 2017 Prado is 215mm (183-195 laden) while larger (1") wheels provide 12mm increase to 227mm
The Jeep in its various iterations varies from 216 -254mm. There are many other marques and models to compare.
On this basis the standard 258mm claimed by Ineos is quite competitive.

Re. the comfort of the rear seats, ...bit of a different experience... I was accompanied by my ever patient wife who (despite my generous offer to swap seats at the half way point[bigrolf]) sat in the rear seats for the entire 15-20 min extended ride (we were the last couple for the afternoon, so "our" driver went 'exploring' a couple of other tracks) commented that she thought the rear seats were surprisingly comfortable.
As for proceeding to purchase, she's happy to do so provided I make good on the promise to travel! The Santa Fe is surprisingly capable on loose surfaces but with 180 mm clearance loaded, one has to be very alert....

[Hoges]

We've heard of the bloke Jim Ratcliffe who wants to copy the Defender. Do you think it's an idea that'll fly? There are a lot of 4x4s out there already.
Discuss.

Projekt Grenadier (http://www.projektgrenadier.com)

Don

Don,
I think the answer is assuredly yes![bigsmile1]

Email from Ineos today advising that full pricing, trim level options, accessories, etc as of 28 April with order book opening for a month for paid up "early hand raiser" reservation holders in May, then other reservation holders...etc for build slots.
"Reality bites"![biggrin]

[101RRS]

The Grenadier seems as if it has been around for so long that they should be into the first update by now, however other than a couple of prototypes has the vehicle actually gone into production as yet - seems like a lot of talk but not much producing.

[PhilipA]

You mean you think he is doing an Elon Musk?

[Hoges]

The Grenadier seems as if it has been around for so long that they should be into the first update by now, however other than a couple of prototypes has the vehicle actually gone into production as yet - seems like a lot of talk but not much producing.

Apparently it has...they've began manufacturing a batch for distribution to UK, Australia and Sth Africa for their 'partner agents' and Ineos execs for consumer test drives beginning sometime in August. According to the email, orders for manufacturing slots will open in May...

[trout1105]

IF I had to choose between a new Defender and an Ineos Grenadier the Ineos would be streets in front for my choice.
This is the vehicle that JLR should have produced to keep the "Defender" name valid instead of calling its new Discovery 6 a "defender"[bigwhistle]

[chuck]

Must admit i am tempted.

Have just bought a 79 series twin cab which is in the country with mods done, but cant be delivered because they are missing the bracket to attach the number plate (true story & i cant believe they cant get a piece of metal folded up to attach the number plate).

I will wait to see pricing on Grenadier & try to get a test drive.

I do like the New Defenders but then my D5 was fantastic - but wanted to start doing some trips so wanted something a bit more rugged.

[spudfan]

IF I had to choose between a new Defender and an Ineos Grenadier the Ineos would be streets in front for my choice.
This is the vehicle that JLR should have produced to keep the "Defender" name valid instead of calling its new Discovery 6 a "defender"[bigwhistle]

Land Rover kept telling us that it would be nigh on impossible to upgrade the Defender to meet safety regulations in it's then current format. Maybe that is what they were told by designers who just did not like it. Anyway they have been proven wrong.

[Tombie]

Land Rover kept telling us that it would be nigh on impossible to upgrade the Defender to meet safety regulations in it's then current format. Maybe that is what they were told by designers who just did not like it. Anyway they have been proven wrong.

Hardly…

In all but loose silhouette this is a completely new vehicle.

Aside from live axles and a chassis it’s nothing like a Defender except slab sided.

Just as coils slid under the Series (shock horror) and then the disco 1 took the chassis and driveline of the RRC, things evolved.

The D3 took the RR airbags to the next level, then an evolution was required. That evolution got the best of the D4 and a loose silhouette of its predecessor.

We have an Ineos on hold, awaiting pricing. Then will decide one of the following:
- Buy the Ineos
- Buy a new Defender
- Walk completely away from another 4wd and get a Tesla Long Range for a daily

[loanrangie]

You mean you think he is doing an Elon Musk?I think it will actually come to fruition unlike that other piece of junk.

[Hoges]

The Grenadier seems as if it has been around for so long that they should be into the first update by now, however other than a couple of prototypes has the vehicle actually gone into production as yet - seems like a lot of talk but not much producing.

These may be of interest! (or not[wink11])

Ineos Grenadier Documentary – From Design to Production and Driving | Building the Grenadier - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kmTel6tlMQ)

2023 Grenadier Interior Review. Yes, it is that good! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvvYqQpgtVM)

INEOS Grenadier 4x4 production tour - How to build a serious SUV - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgCj4TjMs2Y)

INEOS Grenadier Manufacturing - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1MEWLTFM1I)

cheers

Hoges

[Hoges]

Must admit i am tempted.

Have just bought a 79 series twin cab which is in the country with mods done, but cant be delivered because they are missing the bracket to attach the number plate (true story & i cant believe they cant get a piece of metal folded up to attach the number plate).

I will wait to see pricing on Grenadier & try to get a test drive.

I do like the New Defenders but then my D5 was fantastic - but wanted to start doing some trips so wanted something a bit more rugged.

Just wondering if a new 79 series incurs the ATO's Lux Car Tax (for consumers not registered as primary producers etc)? That will be an added cost for the IG....based on the rumoured AUD85k+ basic price...

[trout1105]

Just wondering if a new 79 series incurs the ATO's Lux Car Tax (for consumers not registered as primary producers etc)? That will be an added cost for the IG....based on the rumoured AUD85k+ basic price...

It is hard to imagine that a 79 Series could be considered as a "Luxury" vehicle.

[Tombie]

Just wondering if a new 79 series incurs the ATO's Lux Car Tax (for consumers not registered as primary producers etc)? That will be an added cost for the IG....based on the rumoured AUD85k+ basic price...

Depends what vehicle classification it’s given.

79s are commercial.

[chuck]

Just wondering if a new 79 series incurs the ATO's Lux Car Tax (for consumers not registered as primary producers etc)? That will be an added cost for the IG....based on the rumoured AUD85k+ basic price...

I can confirm it did not incur luxury car tax even with some decent modifications.

[scarry]

LCT was introduced to protect our local car industry.

What local car industry?

Same as Land Tax,its just robbery.

[scarry]

I can confirm it did not incur luxury car tax even with some decent modifications.

Commercial vehicles do not incur LCT.

There are many LC200's around that didnt incur it either.
One is parked under our carport.

[one_iota]

Luxury car tax rate and thresholds | Australian Taxation Office (https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/luxury-car-tax-rate-and-thresholds/)

[Hoges]

Am wondering if a 'private' purchase of an IG would attract the LCT[bigsad]...
If it does, then easy DIY fit extras might be better done later... or taking account of markup it may not make that much difference...:rulez: thanks for your replies
cheers

[Tombie]

Am wondering if a 'private' purchase of an IG would attract the LCT[bigsad]...
If it does, then easy DIY fit extras might be better done later... or taking account of markup it may not make that much difference...:rulez: thanks for your replies
cheers

Best part of accessories fitted at delivery - all covered by New vehicle warranty

Sometimes worth the trade off in additional costs.

[scarry]

Best part of accessories fitted at delivery - all covered by New vehicle warranty

Sometimes worth the trade off in additional costs.

Some manufacturers,such as Mitsubishi will warrant a genuine accessory if fitted after delivery.
The accessory is then covered for the balance of the vehicles new car warranty,5yrs,10yrs,whatever.

So two invoices,one for the vehicle,then one for the accessories,fitted a few days after delivery.

[Deefa]

So it comes down to whether the Grenadier is classed as a commercial vehicle or a passenger vehicle? Does that mean the two seater is commercial and the 5 seater is Passenger? Just gone through the just released Australian price list. My specs adds up to more than I wanted to spend! Well over a hundred K . The site says that this does not include taxes and delivery etc. But does include GST. Quite confusing.

Maybe a rethink of my holding deposit!

[Deefa]

178470

Price list 29th April 2022

[ozscott]

She's an expensive bit of kit when kitted up with the useful accessories. Probably 135k on the road with LCT etc. Admittedly about on par with the new Defender and not as xxxy as a 300 series. But compared to a dual cab ute Ineos are clearly after a different market segment. Cheers

[scarry]

She's an expensive bit of kit when kitted up with the useful accessories. Probably 135k on the road with LCT etc. Admittedly about on par with the new Defender and not as xxxy as a 300 series. But compared to a dual cab ute Ineos are clearly after a different market segment. Cheers

VX300 around $120k,Sahara $140,drive away,less fleet for some.
Although there are more expensive models with a lot more kit,but the VX is pretty loaded with kit.

But a 9 to 12 month wait.

[trout1105]

VX300 around $120k,Sahara $140,drive away,less fleet for some.
Although there are more expensive models with a lot more kit,but the VX is pretty loaded with kit.

But a 9 to 12 month wait.

If you deduct the resale value off the purchase price the VX isn't that expensive.

[ozscott]

VX300 around $120k,Sahara $140,drive away,less fleet for some.
Although there are more expensive models with a lot more kit,but the VX is pretty loaded with kit.

But a 9 to 12 month wait.I thought they might be dearer by now. Right in that case Ineos might be restricting it's market but it will still get plenty of takers. Especially if they are still producing them in 3 to 4 years time when those that held back might lay out their hard earned. Cheers

[grey_ghost]

Do you think that they meant to call it the TrialMaster or the TrailMaster…?

[scarry]

I thought they might be dearer by now. Right in that case Ineos might be restricting it's market but it will still get plenty of takers. Especially if they are still producing them in 3 to 4 years time when those that held back might lay out their hard earned. Cheers

They will sell no worries I recon.

Amongst many challenges for smallish manufacturers,one of the biggest will be reliability,if they can get that sorted,that is be up with the best,then they will soldier on and do very well.

[trout1105]

Do you think that they meant to call it the TrialMaster or the TrailMaster…?

Whatever they call it it doesn't matter, It is still a much better option to replace an older Defender with than JLR's new Pretender offering [bigwhistle]

[trout1105]

They will sell no worries I recon.

Amongst many challenges for smallish manufacturers,one of the biggest will be reliability,if they can get that sorted,that is be up with the best,then they will soldier on and do very well.

From what i have read the Inios has been built from the ground up with durability and capability as the main design criteria and IF I had the quids I would order one in a heartbeat [thumbsupbig]

[Arapiles]

I was away over the ANZAC long weekend and ran into a bloke wearing an Ineos Grenadier "world tour" t-shirt - it listed all of the places they'd had the car for testing, including Australia. A quick check of their website shows that it's not one of the t-shirts available on-line. So ... was this something they gave out to people who test drove a Grenadier or were these guys Ineos engineers?

FYI, they weren't driving a Grenadier ....

[Arapiles]

She's an expensive bit of kit when kitted up with the useful accessories. Probably 135k on the road with LCT etc. Admittedly about on par with the new Defender and not as xxxy as a 300 series. But compared to a dual cab ute Ineos are clearly after a different market segment. Cheers

That said, the Trialmaster/Trailmaster has some impressive standard kit, including an auxiliary battery.

[Deefa]

I was away over the ANZAC long weekend and ran into a bloke wearing an Ineos Grenadier "world tour" t-shirt - it listed all of the places they'd had the car for testing, including Australia. A quick check of their website shows that it's not one of the t-shirts available on-line. So ... was this something they gave out to people who test drove a Grenadier or were these guys Ineos engineers?

FYI, they weren't driving a Grenadier ....

Yes im wearing one now as I type! They gave them away at the prototype drive back in January. This was at a 4wd park near Rathdowney QLD. Rehashed my wish list and comes in at just under 100k. My wife says go for it so now im in a quandary!

[Deefa]

Definitely the Trialmaster is my pick. F and R lockers and a few accessories. The rest of my wish list I can myself slowly as time and money allows. Plus you get a Trialmaster jacket which are worth 800 bucks apparently. Maybe thats what they named them after, fashion is not my forte so I have no idea.

[chuck]

So if you spec one up and say comes to $104,000 before on roads

What would that bring it to in Victoria??

Does anyone know if LCT applies??

[ozscott]

I understand they are not LCT excempt. Do you mean is the LCT calculated on the total with specs? I imagine so but not sure as I have never paid LCT (I have a fundamental desire to avoid paying the Govt that additional tax [emoji1787] but it would get tougher down the track given how prices are going). Cheers

[ozscott]

Hope they have made some of these issues less of an issue (as posted by one of our members who used to own a very nicely modded D2). Ineos Grenadier - THE ISSUES | SEPARATING THE FACTS FROM THE HYPE | A 4WD PERSPECTIVE - YouTube (https://youtu.be/eg-BIZAMGYY)

Cheers

[Deefa]

Yes I saw that review on you tube and it is certainly the most negative one I have seen about the Grenadier. Agree with a lot of his points. The front suspension arms are not long enough to get a reasonable axle articulation so the Flex is not going to be as good as a old defender. ( I'm talking about a easily modified defender with dislocation cones etc) The rear break over angle is not so good as well with the fuel tank hanging down at the back. I think British designers don't understand the importance of flex with the ruts and rocks we have in Australia and the USA. They seem to have mud in the UK! The fuel tank capacity is not a huge issue as he makes out. There are ways around that. I thought that if they were going to make it live axle why would you limit articulation so much with short arms. Also shocks are eye mount which also limits the suspension flex. Pin mount are far better. So I will be keeping my 20 year old defender for local 4wd trips that will give me my fix of that sort of fun. The Grenadier will be touring trips and the desert etc, towing a camper which it will do much better than a old defender. Perhaps though there are many other vehicles at a more reasonable price that can fit that criteria. That's the desision to make.

[Xtreme]

The original design criteria for the Grenadier did not include the hard-core/extreme 4WD enthusiast and although it's important to keep your wheels on the ground I'm sure that with F & R difflocks (which appear to be very reasonably priced) that the Grenadier will be more than capable in the 'rough'.

Apparantly, the most interest so far has come from the touring and caravanning markets who generally are after a reliable, comfortable and reasonably simple 4WD with adequate power and torque to handle their van/s.

[trout1105]

The original design criteria for the Grenadier did not include the hard-core/extreme 4WD enthusiast and although it's important to keep your wheels on the ground I'm sure that with F & R difflocks (which appear to be very reasonably priced) that the Grenadier will be more than capable in the 'rough'.

Apparantly, the most interest so far has come from the touring and caravanning markets who generally are after a reliable, comfortable and reasonably simple 4WD with adequate power and torque to handle their van/s.

Not too many 4WD's can be described as extreme hard core off roaders straight from the showroom floor.

[Tombie]

We cancelled. Not throwing that coin at something that may be gone in 2 years.

[grey_ghost]

People have complained that the new Defender is too expensive (fair enough) and that Ineos would build a cheaper Defender replacement.

Clearly in today’s environment it isn’t possible to make a decent enough profit at the price point.

Don’t get me wrong - this looks like a great vehicle, but it isn’t a cheap Defender replacement.

LR are chasing a different market with the new Defener and are selling plenty of them.

Ineos have now realised that a cheap Defender isn’t doable for the price/vehicle expectations.

Again - this looks like a great vehicle but to all the new Defender haters, this ain’t cheap…

[Deefa]

People have complained that the new Defender is too expensive (fair enough) and that Ineos would build a cheaper Defender replacement.

Clearly in today’s environment it isn’t possible to make a decent enough profit at the price point.

Don’t get me wrong - this looks like a great vehicle, but it isn’t a cheap Defender replacement.

LR are chasing a different market with the new Defener and are selling plenty of them.

Ineos have now realised that a cheap Defender isn’t doable for the price/vehicle expectations.

Again - this looks like a great vehicle but to all the new Defender haters, this ain’t cheap…

Agreed with this. The days of making a cheap old style vehicle are gone. But I think they will be a huge success despite the price. There is a huge market for a retro looking Proper 4wd even if it turns out to be no better off road than a Ford Everest or such like. Look at the Mini me Defender look alike Suzuki Jimmny. They can not keep up with the demand for them.

As quoted from a Drive piece that came out last year: “People just keep coming in to buy them,” said one long-standing dealer. “I think as more of them appear in the traffic, people see them and want to buy one. If I could get more I would sell more.”

There is still a long waiting list, and for what they are they are not really cheap. Or look at the prices of old Defenders with 300 thousand or more Ks on them still going for crazy prices. There is nothing wrong with the new Defenders but there is a perceived unreliability due to complexity issue with lots of computers etc. Probably they are very reliable but at the end of the day it looks like a Discovery. I think the money they have sunk into the Grenadier they will be around for some time and getting one will be a challenge for years. Especially as the Old Defender mad Americans start buying them. I reckon they will be better than money in the bank, not that that gets you much these days.

[simonmelb]

As well as the pricing target, they missed their 1 ton payload objective by close to 200 kg. This is a fairly big miss which must have been designed in with the trade off being a more heavy duty chassis, axles etc I assume?

I would still like to own one though! But yes a brand new manufacturer is a risk.

[Mules]

People have complained that the new Defender is too expensive (fair enough) and that Ineos would build a cheaper Defender replacement.

Clearly in today’s environment it isn’t possible to make a decent enough profit at the price point.

Don’t get me wrong - this looks like a great vehicle, but it isn’t a cheap Defender replacement.

LR are chasing a different market with the new Defener and are selling plenty of them.

Ineos have now realised that a cheap Defender isn’t doable for the price/vehicle expectations.

Again - this looks like a great vehicle but to all the new Defender haters, this ain’t cheap…Interesting...

I would hazard a guess to say that the principal complaint regarding the new Defender is that it resembles a Disco and steps away from being a 'working vehicle'. Yes some will put it to work, but mostly in the city. Ineos pricing has been set for some time, and I don't believe they ever pretended to build a cheap, like-vehicle (the old Defender was never cheap really either, do the inflation sums).

You don't really walk away with much change from 100k for a new Troopy or 70 Series, and we Australians gobble them up. And a 300 series? Well, way north of that. 85k does get you a base Vehicle from Ineos, as promised. Extras of course add up, surely this was expected - and no different from every other - successful - manufacturer.

Some good comments above though.. heart sinks more than a little at them missing the payload goal of 1 tonne, though it is still almost class-leading for a wagon.... everything, absolutely everything is a compromise in vehicle design. The trade-off? Wonderfully solid chassis, body, powerful engine, modern safety standards. Far more liveable as a daily driver..

[scarry]

As well as the pricing target, they missed their 1 ton payload objective by close to 200 kg. This is a fairly big miss which must have been designed in with the trade off being a more heavy duty chassis, axles etc I assume?

I would still like to own one though! But yes a brand new manufacturer is a risk.

And once it goes to that sort of payload,and seats 5 it is not far off being LCT exempt.

[Mules]

We cancelled. Not throwing that coin at something that may be gone in 2 years.Tombie - respectfully - I think people are less interested by the fact that you cancelled, but rather why you cancelled. The premise that Ineos Automotive may cease to exist in 2 years was surely a scenario that existed when you paid the initial deposit?

The benefit one hopes to gain from a forum, for readers, is rationale behind a decision.

Cheers

[chuck]

Following Tombie's logic they may not exist in two years because their cars will be same price as other established players

Initially Ineos indicated their product would be competing with 70 series Landcruiser's & having just bought a 79 i can tell you they are much more expensive even with the accessories i had to fit to modernise mine.

Even if i spent $28k to convert it to auto they would be more expensive.

So they fill a niche for first years and then expire!!

Hope not but a real possibility.

They are not far off 300 series GR Cruiser which will be just as capable and is a known quantity.

I built and priced one on line and got to $114,000 plus on roads approx $8000 then approx $15000 LCT

So near on $140 k

[scarry]

They are not far off 300 series GR Cruiser which will be just as capable and is a known quantity.

I built and priced one on line and got to $114,000 plus on roads approx $8000 then approx $15000 LCT

So near on $140 k

I can see why Tombie moved on,i wouldnt go near one ATM for that sort of price,looking at other vehicles on the market,Defender,LC300,and i think there is a refreshed Y62 not far off.There are also the 76,79, but built for a different market.

In five years time maybe.

[ozscott]

And the lack of room for a long range fuel tank and overall lack of payload and space will put off most people who would go say a dual cab ute and were considering the Ineos due to roof load and overall payload that had been mooted. Cheers

[Discodicky]

Following Tombie's logic they may not exist in two years because their cars will be same price as other established players

Initially Ineos indicated their product would be competing with 70 series Landcruiser's & having just bought a 79 i can tell you they are much more expensive even with the accessories i had to fit to modernise mine.

Even if i spent $28k to convert it to auto they would be more expensive.

So they fill a niche for first years and then expire!!

Hope not but a real possibility.

They are not far off 300 series GR Cruiser which will be just as capable and is a known quantity.

I built and priced one on line and got to $114,000 plus on roads approx $8000 then approx $15000 LCT

So near on $140 k

A 300 Series Cruiser being a "known quantity"?..... when its been released for just a month or so???
I beg to differ..... it'll take at least 12 months before that claim can be made.
The 300 Series is already up for its first recall!!

[chuck]

A 300 Series Cruiser being a "known quantity"?..... when its been released for just a month or so???
I beg to differ..... it'll take at least 12 months before that claim can be made.
The 300 Series is already up for its first recall!!

Disco Dicky

When i saw a known quantity i am more referring to the brand, resale, history etc.

All new cars will have faults it is how they are dealt with that it is more important.

[scarry]

Disco Dicky

All new cars will have faults it is how they are dealt with that it is more important.

And some generally have way more than others....

[Deefa]

Following Tombie's logic they may not exist in two years because their cars will be same price as other established players

Initially Ineos indicated their product would be competing with 70 series Landcruiser's & having just bought a 79 i can tell you they are much more expensive even with the accessories i had to fit to modernise mine.

Even if i spent $28k to convert it to auto they would be more expensive.

So they fill a niche for first years and then expire!!

Hope not but a real possibility.

They are not far off 300 series GR Cruiser which will be just as capable and is a known quantity.

I built and priced one on line and got to $114,000 plus on roads approx $8000 then approx $15000 LCT

So near on $140 k

Hi Chuck, Sorry I cant follow. do you mean the cruiser is more expensive or the Grenadier?

For me an auto would be essential as my wife would not drive a manual. To get the grenadier to $114 k you must have ticked a lot of options. The trial-master edition has pretty much everything I want already, Lockers, snorkel, towbar ,preinstalled extra wiring etc. I built mine to $98465 Which is the standard trial master , and just metallic paint, floor mats,and guard top chequer plate. I may add a bull bar, roof rack and possibly a winch down the track.

For a Queensland purchase this would be $98465 plus stamp duty and Rego costs of $4363 plus the dreaded luxury car tax of $7560 Total of $110,388. The only unknown here is the dealer delivery cost?? Still a lot of money but I would be interested in a comparison to a 79 series with an Automatic transmission. ( do they make an auto 79?) Or for that mater a 300 series cruiser.

Anybody done the sums on a comparison ?

[chuck]

Luxury car tax is 30% of sum above $68000 approx - so well

Stamps in Vic $8000 odd dollars

Leather, winch, sliders, metallic paint, rear spare storage all add up pretty quickly.

They don't make an auto for the 70 series however Wholesale Automatics do an awesome conversion using all Toyota parts for one.

[Deefa]

Thanks Chuck, Its a viable option a Land cruiser. Auto is my main issue as my wife wouldn't drive the manual. Also my wife is not so keen on the 79 series as she sees it as being a truck. She would probably drive a 300 series no problem! I might go over to Toyota and see what that adds up to as a point of comparison.

[Mules]

Thanks Chuck, Its a viable option a Land cruiser. Auto is my main issue as my wife wouldn't drive the manual. Also my wife is not so keen on the 79 series as she sees it as being a truck. She would probably drive a 300 series no problem! I might go over to Toyota and see what that adds up to as a point of comparison.Thanks Deefa, great comments and interested in your comparison. Cheers

[chuck]

Yes - would have preferred an auto as would my wife.

Am enjoying the manual so far - but then most of my driving is freeway or country.

Cheers

[Hoges]

Well....
I put together a spreadsheet comparing the Station wagon ($85,500)with the Trial Master $96,495...
There's a couple of interesting comparisons: The difflock plus BFG KO2s called the "Rough Pack" is $2,875 , or $3,650 separately.
Difflocks by themselves are $2,790 if you want to stay with the Ineos/Bridgestone offering.

I priced up the Wagon with just those extras which I figure would be my view of "fit for purpose" [bigwhistle] viz: the Rough Pack, side runners (arthritic hip!) , roof cross bars, reflective privacy glass,Spare wheel storage box, a half height cargo barrier, tow pack, the high load electric panel, the Thatchem Class1 alarm system and carpeted floor. This came to a tad shy of $96K which then escalated to $112.5K with on-costs (excluding 'dealer fee') but incl Gst/LCT/Rego, Qld Stamp duty and RACQ comprehensive insurance (estimate).
I've been assured from a couple of reliable sources that my current Dec 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe diesel which has 4 1/2 yrs factory warranty to run and less than 20K Km on the clock would bring close to new car price for a private sale such is the madness of the market at the moment... will wait and see.


I have written to Ineos customer service asking about the 1 7/8" towball ...Aust market is 50mm; whether power mirrors (unheated) are standard. Also, whether there is a standard alarm/immobiliser and the Thatchem is an upgrade. I get the feeling that there will be a more detailed spec sheet released well before 18May (I sincerely hope there is!) which is the cutoff for early hand raisers for build slot deposit.

I took a quick look at "East Coast Commercial" website for a "Ronny Dahl basic Troopy" There was one 2022 with approx 2,500km at $109K while the rest of them between 4-6 yrs old with well over 130k km were asking $90K +!! That scratched the Troopy itch![biggrin]

Very grateful for all the other comments from varying perspectives on this topic... thank you
cheers

[Hoges]

Re. The Tow package for those perhaps compiling their options list...

Further to my previous post, I note that the Tow hitch listed for Australia Code ETK is the one for the US market (Class III North American Spec)

I believe it should be Code ETI "50mm towball and Jaw and electrics" as listed in the UK price list which would on the face of it at least be in line with Australian Std 4177.2

I've emailed the Customer Service people as well as one of the Ineos marketing chaps at the Qld Rathdowney drive day earlier in the year. We'll see what happens!

[trout1105]

Well....
I put together a spreadsheet comparing the Station wagon ($85,500)with the Trial Master $96,495...
There's a couple of interesting comparisons: The difflock plus BFG KO2s called the "Rough Pack" is $2,875 , or $3,650 separately.
Difflocks by themselves are $2,790 if you want to stay with the Ineos/Bridgestone offering.

I priced up the Wagon with just those extras which I figure would be my view of "fit for purpose" [bigwhistle] viz: the Rough Pack, side runners (arthritic hip!) , roof cross bars, reflective privacy glass,Spare wheel storage box, a half height cargo barrier, tow pack, the high load electric panel, the Thatchem Class1 alarm system and carpeted floor. This came to a tad shy of $96K which then escalated to $112.5K with on-costs (excluding 'dealer fee') but incl Gst/LCT/Rego, Qld Stamp duty and RACQ comprehensive insurance (estimate).
I've been assured from a couple of reliable sources that my current Dec 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe diesel which has 4 1/2 yrs factory warranty to run and less than 20K Km on the clock would bring close to new car price for a private sale such is the madness of the market at the moment... will wait and see.


I have written to Ineos customer service asking about the 1 7/8" towball ...Aust market is 50mm; whether power mirrors (unheated) are standard. Also, whether there is a standard alarm/immobiliser and the Thatchem is an upgrade. I get the feeling that there will be a more detailed spec sheet released well before 18May (I sincerely hope there is!) which is the cutoff for early hand raisers for build slot deposit.

I took a quick look at "East Coast Commercial" website for a "Ronny Dahl basic Troopy" There was one 2022 with approx 2,500km at $109K while the rest of them between 4-6 yrs old with well over 130k km were asking $90K +!! That scratched the Troopy itch![biggrin]

Very grateful for all the other comments from varying perspectives on this topic... thank you
cheers

I picked up my 79 Series with a full canopy, full length roof Rack, an under tray storage box, and even a 20l water tank with tap plus it was already fitted with a mild chip and a 5 inch stainless exhaust system for $30,000.
It did have 203000 k on the clock .But I have done another 150,000k since getting it and all I have had to fix is an alternator and a wiper motor So if you shop around you can find a bargain [thumbsupbig]

[Tombie]

I picked up my 79 Series with a full canopy, full length roof Rack, an under tray storage box, and even a 20l water tank with tap plus it was already fitted with a mild chip and a 5 inch stainless exhaust system for $30,000.
It did have 203000 k on the clock .But I have done another 150,000k since getting it and all I have had to fix is an alternator and a wiper motor So if you shop around you can find a bargain [thumbsupbig]

Not at the moment you cannot.

Covid tax has seen prices on total piles of rubbish jump.

[Tombie]

I’ll see if I can explain myself a bit.

Ineos impressed, we liked it. And if it held around $90k we’re willing to “take a chance”.

Well it hasn’t, it has a basic pack around $96k
Add what we want and it’s higher again.

I don’t want a “no nonsense” tourer from the 1960s so still has to have all the nice bits inside as we will spend a lot of time in there.

That pushed it over $100k. Then add all the other costs Inc LCT and it was $115+ for an “unproven” product.

Then a few questions went out to people around here. “Ever serviced a BMW?” Response wasn’t good.

Add in a few little concerns - steering wobble in demo video, foot rest intrusion, door configuration in load area etc and it started to skew thinking.

Then the question of “what if it’s another Delorean”?
In 2 years this project might be a major flop.
Dealers might walk away etc.

That’ll leave me chasing suppliers for parts, and if I needed new trim or panels it may not even be possible.

Add in “what’s customer care like” re warranty and break down? LR will recover the vehicle and help.
Will Ineos do the same? How long to actually get the parts to get back on the road again?

It’s NOT like this isn’t a complex vehicle.
People freak on “80 ECU” comments yet this vehicles only reduction in tech is solid axles.

It has:
Electronically controlled engine
Electronically controlled gearbox
Electric windows, locks, AC, Bluetooth, Nav, solenoids for lockers….. etc

It’s not anything new anywhere, and certainly not less electronic than anything else.

So…..

If we go the new 4wd route… it’ll likely be a Defender.
However, Mini Countryman is looking like a good daily driver and keep the D4 as the tourer.

[trout1105]

Not at the moment you cannot.

Covid tax has seen prices on total piles of rubbish jump.

Agreed, I bought the 79 series 5 or 6 years ago when things were normal But the covid dust will finally settle and hopefully everything will will come back to normal again[thumbsupbig]

[Geedublya]

I’ll see if I can explain myself a bit.

Ineos impressed, we liked it. And if it held around $90k we’re willing to “take a chance”.

Well it hasn’t, it has a basic pack around $96k
Add what we want and it’s higher again.

I don’t want a “no nonsense” tourer from the 1960s so still has to have all the nice bits inside as we will spend a lot of time in there.

That pushed it over $100k. Then add all the other costs Inc LCT and it was $115+ for an “unproven” product.

Then a few questions went out to people around here. “Ever serviced a BMW?” Response wasn’t good.

Add in a few little concerns - steering wobble in demo video, foot rest intrusion, door configuration in load area etc and it started to skew thinking.

Then the question of “what if it’s another Delorean”?
In 2 years this project might be a major flop.
Dealers might walk away etc.

That’ll leave me chasing suppliers for parts, and if I needed new trim or panels it may not even be possible.

Add in “what’s customer care like” re warranty and break down? LR will recover the vehicle and help.
Will Ineos do the same? How long to actually get the parts to get back on the road again?

It’s NOT like this isn’t a complex vehicle.
People freak on “80 ECU” comments yet this vehicles only reduction in tech is solid axles.

It has:
Electronically controlled engine
Electronically controlled gearbox
Electric windows, locks, AC, Bluetooth, Nav, solenoids for lockers….. etc

It’s not anything new anywhere, and certainly not less electronic than anything else.

So…..

If we go the new 4wd route… it’ll likely be a Defender.
However, Mini Countryman is looking like a good daily driver and keep the D4 as the tourer.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. When I did the test drive I asked about keyless entry and start. The marketing guy commented that this was a simple 4wd and wouldn't have these complicated tech and then later he mentioned it had 32 ECUs? Which is pretty similar to what my D4 had.

I priced up a new Defender to my spec and it came in at $126K and a 12 month wait. I'll probably go a dual cab ute for the moment and see what else comes out.

[scarry]

It’s not anything new anywhere, and certainly not less electronic than anything else.



Its certainly a lot less electronic than Defender.

One only has to look at the EAS system,and thats just the start.

[Deefa]

I think you guys have the wrong take on the grenadier. Its never going to be a replacement for a Discovery 4 at about the same price as a discovery 4 was 10 years ago, with all the creature comforts, key-less start, leather trim, electric seats etc etc. It was always about making a vehicle as simple as possible ( Yes I know that's not that simple anymore) which was primarily an off road biased vehicle and a work vehicle with things like vinyl floors that are hose out, load space that you can throw firewood in with hard wear surfaces and so on. I for one love the concept of this , Land rover ONLY make luxury 4wds now, they abandoned the working vehicle which is what the brand was built on. Thats why so many people where disappointed with the new Defender, including Jim Radcliffe. My head says; new company probably not going to get it 100 percent. Could be gone in a few years, might be hard to get parts etc. But my heart says what a brilliant concept and a bit of an up yours Land Rover for not listening to the Defender owners who do actually use the vehicles as work 4wds.

[Tombie]

I think you guys have the wrong take on the grenadier. Its never going to be a replacement for a Discovery 4 at about the same price as a discovery 4 was 10 years ago, with all the creature comforts, key-less start, leather trim, electric seats etc etc. It was always about making a vehicle as simple as possible ( Yes I know that's not that simple anymore) which was primarily an off road biased vehicle and a work vehicle with things like vinyl floors that are hose out, load space that you can throw firewood in with hard wear surfaces and so on. I for one love the concept of this , Land rover ONLY make luxury 4wds now, they abandoned the working vehicle which is what the brand was built on. Thats why so many people where disappointed with the new Defender, including Jim Radcliffe. My head says; new company probably not going to get it 100 percent. Could be gone in a few years, might be hard to get parts etc. But my heart says what a brilliant concept and a bit of an up yours Land Rover for not listening to the Defender owners who do actually use the vehicles as work 4wds.

Except. It has all the trim and tech.
It has a cargo area that WILL mark up if you throw wood in there without further protection.

It has no capability beyond a D4 or Later or a Defender.

All it has is slab sides. And for those who cannot wrap their head around smoother profiles this becomes “rugged” in their minds.

Same took place when the 60 series became the rounder 80 series.
Same happened when the VL became the VN
Heck it even went the other way from XC to XD


Ineos is a nice vehicle. It’s price point has me saying no.

[Tombie]

Its certainly a lot less electronic than Defender.

One only has to look at the EAS system,and thats just the start.

An EAS system that has proven very effective and reliable.

As for ECU count. It’s not anything fancy most times - Bluetooth modules are ECUs. So are the modern circuits that control your windscreen wipers.

The only ones that matter are the ones that keep it running.
And they ALL have those ones.

[grey_ghost]

Dare I say that a lot of the electrical systems in the new Defender have already been around a while - in D4’s, Range Rovers, etc.

It’s updated but not entirely new.

Ineos have no doubt realised that to meet “user requirements” and safety features - electronics are required.

Ineos have realised - you can’t build an old Defender anymore.. It just isn’t possible (or perhaps economically viable)

[ozscott]

Except. It has all the trim and tech.
It has a cargo area that WILL mark up if you throw wood in there without further protection.

It has no capability beyond a D4 or Later or a Defender.

All it has is slab sides. And for those who cannot wrap their head around smoother profiles this becomes “rugged” in their minds.

Same took place when the 60 series became the rounder 80 series.
Same happened when the VL became the VN
Heck it even went the other way from XC to XD


Ineos is a nice vehicle. It’s price point has me saying no.Surprised 'VN' got past the swear filter Mike. Wasnt until the VT that Holden got it right again [emoji1787]. Cheers

[davros]

Mainstream news:

2022 Ineos Grenadier tough 4WD confirmed for Australian launch | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site (https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/2022-ineos-grenadier-tough-4wd-confirmed-for-australian-launch/news-story/152816d4d105b2116c2c971b5e6ec1ec)

[Arch]

Except. It has all the trim and tech.
It has no capability beyond a D4 or Later or a Defender.



F&R diff locks that the user can control will take you further than terrain response with an e-diff. As we all know, the e-diff is good but it isn't a locker.

The Grenadier would be just about perfect if it had EAS... but it will be fine without.

[101RRS]

As we all know, the e-diff is good but it isn't a locker.


I am not sure I agree with that - at one end of the scale the LR e-diff locks fully so is the same as a locker but at the other end of the it is fully open with everything in between - so when it needs to be fully locked like a normal locker it is.

[scarry]

F&R diff locks that the user can control will take you further than terrain response with an e-diff. As we all know, the e-diff is good but it isn't a locker.

We dont want to open this can of worms again,its been done to death before,but a late model LR,with E diff isnt far behind dual lockers and much easier to steer.Remembering diffs tucked up high due to IS, on all corners is pretty helpfull in off road situations as well.

The Grenadier would be just about perfect if it had EAS... but it will be fine without.

As for EAS,some would say maybe not,its one thing less to fail,need maintenance,repairs,etc.

[Tombie]

F&R diff locks that the user can control will take you further than terrain response with an e-diff. As we all know, the e-diff is good but it isn't a locker.

The Grenadier would be just about perfect if it had EAS... but it will be fine without.

Sorry but that’s not correct. Ediff can be fully locked to fully open.

Those with front lockers know how poorly steering behaves so rarely use them unless absolutely necessary.

What they cannot do either, is preload the rear diff on straight line take off etc assisting normal daily driving.

[101RRS]

Those with front lockers know how poorly steering behaves so rarely use them unless absolutely necessary.


My Haflinger has front and rear diff locks and while I often use the rear locker (mainly when I am in 2wd), I have never had to use the front locker in anger - and you are correct - even in a 650kg vehicle with 25" tyres the steering is extremely heavy let alone driving a 2.5t vehicle with a front locker in.

My 101 has a rear detroit and I have had a air locker kit sitting under the bench for 13years waiting to go in the front but never been in a position to need it so it still sits under the bench - maybe one day.

Garry

[Deefa]

I know what you mean. I've got half a lifetime of maybe one day jobs to do ☺️

[trout1105]

I know what you mean. I've got half a lifetime of maybe one day jobs to do ☺️

Haven't we all[bigrolf]

[shanegtr]

Land Rover kept telling us that it would be nigh on impossible to upgrade the Defender to meet safety regulations in it's then current format. Maybe that is what they were told by designers who just did not like it. Anyway they have been proven wrong.
Well, if it ever completes a crash test then there's every chance that LR may be proven right too...

[ozscott]

Well, if it ever completes a crash test then there's every chance that LR may be proven right too...Probably 4 star on the crash test but every prospect it will do very well on real life crash 'tests'. Cheers

[Arapiles]

I think you guys have the wrong take on the grenadier. Its never going to be a replacement for a Discovery 4 at about the same price as a discovery 4 was 10 years ago, with all the creature comforts, key-less start, leather trim, electric seats etc etc. It was always about making a vehicle as simple as possible ( Yes I know that's not that simple anymore) which was primarily an off road biased vehicle and a work vehicle with things like vinyl floors that are hose out, load space that you can throw firewood in with hard wear surfaces and so on. I for one love the concept of this , Land rover ONLY make luxury 4wds now, they abandoned the working vehicle which is what the brand was built on. Thats why so many people where disappointed with the new Defender, including Jim Radcliffe. My head says; new company probably not going to get it 100 percent. Could be gone in a few years, might be hard to get parts etc. But my heart says what a brilliant concept and a bit of an up yours Land Rover for not listening to the Defender owners who do actually use the vehicles as work 4wds.


Gotta say .... the Grenadier doesn't look that utilitarian. And if it is, its a $100k utilitarian vehicle.

[Deefa]

Gotta say .... the Grenadier doesn't look that utilitarian. And if it is, its a $100k utilitarian vehicle.


But so are cruisers, actually more. I tried to do a comparison but in many ways its trying to compare apples with oranges. Toyota dont tell you how much its really going to cost unless you call the dealer. 300 series start at $96 k with no accessories. So Grenadier is 84.5k with no accessories as a two seater, or 85.5 k as a 5 seater. Its only when you add bits it adds up! And taxes etc.

[ozscott]

I think Tombie hit the mark. The biggest issue is laying out 6 figures of hard earned not knowing if the brand will survive. If it was priced to steal away the massive dual cab ute market in Australia that would help it a lot. A basic one with at least a rear locker for say $75k on the road and even Wildtrack fans may come across and those who might stretch to a Defender but would love to make a saving. Don't see too many of those who would buy a 300 series or a 70 Series opting for one. Cheers

[chuck]

But so are cruisers, actually more. I tried to do a comparison but in many ways its trying to compare apples with oranges. Toyota dont tell you how much its really going to cost unless you call the dealer. 300 series start at $96 k with no accessories. So Grenadier is 84.5k with no accessories as a two seater, or 85.5 k as a 5 seater. Its only when you add bits it adds up! And taxes etc.

Deefa

The 300 series starts at $98k on road whereas the INEOS starts at $85.5 with out on roads

[Tombie]

I know what you mean. I've got half a lifetime of maybe one day jobs to do [emoji3526]

I wish mine were 1 day jobs.

[Tombie]

Probably 4 star on the crash test but every prospect it will do very well on real life crash 'tests'. Cheers

If the Grenadier doesn’t/can’t make Ancap 5 it will lose a significant portion of its sales.

No mine fleets
No government fleets
No emergency services

[ozscott]

If the Grenadier doesn’t/can’t make Ancap 5 it will lose a significant portion of its sales.

No mine fleets
No government fleets
No emergency servicesI recall one of the main Engineers or designers (can't recall which) saying openly early on that it would be 4 star and very solid. So yep it will not garner fleets but I venture to say it would unlikely garner such customers for many years even if could achieve 5 stars. Cheers

[scarry]

Deefa

The 300 series starts at $98k on road whereas the INEOS starts at $85.5 with out on roads

LC 300,GXL around $110K,VX around $120K,driveaway,makes it a better buy than Grenadia,for many reasons,particularly the ones Tombie has brought up.

Then there is the Defender,with a multitude of models and options at all sorts of prices,for those that want one.

I dont think the 70 series,no matter which model is comparable,even the 76 is pretty utilitarian,and more of a commercial vehicle.

[Deefa]

Deefa

The 300 series starts at $98k on road whereas the INEOS starts at $85.5 with out on roads

Ok sorry I thought that was plus on roads. Just had a look and you are correct. The cruiser price includes rego for 12 months, dealer delv and stamp duty. However I'm not sure that includes the Luxury car tax? It does say in the disclaimer plus statutory taxes. They usually state a price for ABN holders as if you have an ABN and its going to be used for a business then LCT does not apply.

Rego and stamp duty for QLD is about $4500 so Grenadier around say 90k for very basic model. Not a huge amount in it but probably as others said the Landcruiser is a safer bet.

[101RRS]

Deefa

The 300 series starts at $98k on road whereas the INEOS starts at $85.5 with out on roads

Why we comparing a 300 series with a Ineos - they are a different class of vehicle - might as well as compare a Ineos with FF RR.

Need to compare apples with apples - Ineos competes with the Toyota 70 series in Aust - I really dont see anything else - except maybe for a basic Defender.

[shanegtr]

Probably 4 star on the crash test but every prospect it will do very well on real life crash 'tests'. Cheers
Either way it will be an improvement over a defender (the old one not the new one).

[scarry]

Why we comparing a 300 series with a Ineos - they are a different class of vehicle - might as well as compare a Ineos with FF RR.

Need to compare apples with apples - Ineos competes with the Toyota 70 series in Aust - I really dont see anything else - except maybe for a basic Defender.

The 300 GX,GXL,similar price,similar size,similar class,similar off road ability,competing for similar market of purchasers.

Something like a FFRR is nothing like either of them.

The 70s are different,leaf springs,manual only,rough as without mods,commercial vehicles,most of the range is utes.

Anyway,just my 2 cents worth[biggrin]

[Homestar]

Why we comparing a 300 series with a Ineos - they are a different class of vehicle - might as well as compare a Ineos with FF RR.

Need to compare apples with apples - Ineos competes with the Toyota 70 series in Aust - I really dont see anything else - except maybe for a basic Defender.

I think that is a fair comparison - well from where I sit anyway. I am extremely interested in an Ineos, but won't be an early adopter - I'm probably 18 months to 2 years away from ordering something. I have looked at the 300 series as well - and it falls into a very similar price bracket, so if the Ineos doesn't stack up when I go to buy for whatever reason, then a 300 series could be on the cards. No way I'd be looking at a 70 series. So it will depend on what the buyer want - both the 300 and 70 series are potential options depending on intended use from what I can see.

[Deefa]

I reckon they will be difficult to buy once the American market opens. I've been looking at the forums and the yanks are crazy keen. They but jeeps by the hundreds of thousands for Christ sake. They are ****ed that Australia is getting them before they are.

[Homestar]

I reckon they will be difficult to buy once the American market opens. I've been looking at the forums and the yanks are crazy keen. They but jeeps by the hundreds of thousands for Christ sake. They are ****ed that Australia is getting them before they are.

Initially maybe, although they are allocating numbers to each market many years in advance but they won't say how many, but did mention Australia will be their 3rd largest market, so I would assume they'll still have allocations here each year, but one of the reasons I'm still on the fence is no one really has any idea how they'll go in the long or even short term. I'm not about to drop that much coin on something that's unproven. I have my fingers crossed they'll be everything that's claimed once the first bugs are sorted (there will be some, there always are)

[Tote]

I'm waiting on the dual cab ute to emerge, that has a much more direct comparison with the 70 series and is not in any way comparable with the 300 series cruiser.

Regards,
Tote

[Tombie]

I recall one of the main Engineers or designers (can't recall which) saying openly early on that it would be 4 star and very solid. So yep it will not garner fleets but I venture to say it would unlikely garner such customers for many years even if could achieve 5 stars. Cheers

That’s not what they were saying - that fleets and emergency services was a key target demographic to keep sales flowing.

Look, I hope it works, but won’t be drinking the “Kickstarter” cool-aid.

It’s looking more and more like a road based runabout as the next vehicle and keep the 3 LRs

[ozscott]

That’s not what they were saying - that fleets and emergency services was a key target demographic to keep sales flowing.

Look, I hope it works, but won’t be drinking the “Kickstarter” cool-aid.

It’s looking more and more like a road based runabout as the next vehicle and keep the 3 LRsThen they were kidding themselves. I didn't realise they said they were targeting fleets and ES. Without 5 stars and without the main players badge that was always aspirational rather than realistic in my view. Cheers

[Tote]

Then they were kidding themselves. I didn't realise they said they were targeting fleets and ES. Without 5 stars and without the main players badge that was always aspirational rather than realistic in my view. Cheers

Maybe it isn't Australian fleets that they are interested in, someone made mention of the number of Jeeps sold in the US - Clearly ANCAP ratings don't impact market penetration there. On a slight side topic I was talking to an importer of upmarket side by side UTVs on the weekend. Australia decided that Quad bikes were dangerous and the reaction of the manufacturers was to withdraw from the market rather than give their US customers an excuse to litigate because they would need to fit a safety device to quads sold in Australia and it could be perceived that the quads were inherently dangerous without it. Australia is such a small market the manufacturers don't care about us in general.

Regards,
Tote

[Deefa]

It's only when you travel overseas that you realise how much of a nanny state we live in Australia. It drives me mad.

[Mules]

That’s not what they were saying - that fleets and emergency services was a key target demographic to keep sales flowing.

Look, I hope it works, but won’t be drinking the “Kickstarter” cool-aid.

It’s looking more and more like a road based runabout as the next vehicle and keep the 3 LRsYeah such a pity those English farmers drunk the Land Rover cool-aid back in 49'... but wait, we already have the Jeep (and didn't you know that won a war?).

And yes pity those poor souls that spend their hard-earned on Version 1, if only they knew they were just ironing the bugs out of my 'road runabout to-be' a few years down the road.. because no other car fulfils that role better than a heavily-engineered and expensive 4wd.

[Tombie]

“At first Ford formed a theory to account for this human behaviour. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths seize up. After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favour of a new one. If they don't keep on excercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working.”

[Mules]

"I'd far rather be happy than right any day..."

[Tombie]

And are you?

[Tombie]

Which lends itself to the phrase;

“Is ignorance really bliss? And if it is, is it worth it?”

[shack]

Of course ignorance is bliss... Right up until you realise you were ignorant!!

That's when it goes bad.

[Mules]

Which lends itself to the phrase;

“Is ignorance really bliss? And if it is, is it worth it?”

All good Tombie I've had my say and you obviously weren't built with an 'off' button, I will do what I do with all the other bad drivers out there and ignore you.

Enjoy the forum and all the time you seemingly have on your hands to make white noise... I guess the local pub got sick of you and this was the next best thing.

Cheers [emoji482]

[Tombie]

All good Tombie I've had my say and you obviously weren't built with an 'off' button, I will do what I do with all the other bad drivers out there and ignore you.

Enjoy the forum and all the time you seemingly have on your hands to make white noise... I guess the local pub got sick of you and this was the next best thing.

Cheers [emoji482]

Hahahahaha. Bad driver? Local pub?

It’s all good. Think what you wish.

[Arch]

Sorry but that’s not correct. Ediff can be fully locked to fully open.

Those with front lockers know how poorly steering behaves so rarely use them unless absolutely necessary.

What they cannot do either, is preload the rear diff on straight line take off etc assisting normal daily driving.

The e-diff requires slip so the computer knows to engage it. if the computer thinks there is no slip between the two wheels, it assumes both rear wheels have traction so it wont wind up the clutch pack. Same for the centre diff clutch pack.

Yep, maybe for your use that is the case. For me, watching a vehicle equipped with terrain response (no ediff) lose momentum over difficult sections where diff locks walk through, there is a world of difference. Even the hill descent program will have moments of launch down hills where a wheel loses traction, while braking control is maintained in a diff locked equipped vehicle.

Front diff locks have some turning issues but not as much as the internet would have you believe. Its something you become accustom to.

Again, probably a good reminder to accept other people experience rather than writing them off. 4wding in a range of conditions and vehicles across the country is my day job.

[Tombie]

The e-diff requires slip so the computer knows to engage it. if the computer thinks there is no slip between the two wheels, it assumes both rear wheels have traction so it wont wind up the clutch pack. Same for the centre diff clutch pack.

Yep, maybe for your use that is the case. For me, watching a vehicle equipped with terrain response (no ediff) lose momentum over difficult sections where diff locks walk through, there is a world of difference. Even the hill descent program will have moments of launch down hills where a wheel loses traction, while braking control is maintained in a diff locked equipped vehicle.

Front diff locks have some turning issues but not as much as the internet would have you believe. Its something you become accustom to.

Again, probably a good reminder to accept other people experience rather than writing them off. 4wding in a range of conditions and vehicles across the country is my day job.

No it doesn’t. It depends completely on the TR program selected. Some allow some slip, others lock it.
It also locks up for straight line take offs on sealed surfaces to prevent wheel spin.

And having had locked vehicles - on a scrambling climb front end steering becomes extremely difficult at times.

Sounds like you also have a fun job that gets you out and about - fortunately so do I. And it involves scrambling some pretty fun stuff! Not a lot of mud surfaces though, so the lockers are always fighting the grip of each rock.

[Deefa]

The e-diff requires slip so the computer knows to engage it. if the computer thinks there is no slip between the two wheels, it assumes both rear wheels have traction so it wont wind up the clutch pack. Same for the centre diff clutch pack.

Yep, maybe for your use that is the case. For me, watching a vehicle equipped with terrain response (no ediff) lose momentum over difficult sections where diff locks walk through, there is a world of difference. Even the hill descent program will have moments of launch down hills where a wheel loses traction, while braking control is maintained in a diff locked equipped vehicle.

Front diff locks have some turning issues but not as much as the internet would have you believe. Its something you become accustom to.

Again, probably a good reminder to accept other people experience rather than writing them off. 4wding in a range of conditions and vehicles across the country is my day job.

Both systems work guess ( I have no experience of e diffs) But keeping the wheels on the ground is the main thing. If you have a crossaxle situation and all 4 wheels are on the ground then its going to be better than 2 wheels up in the air even if they are locked. Beam axle is better at this. Unfortunately there's not a lot of footage of the Grenadiers having great axle articulation. Looking at the front suspension its all short arms and round bushed which doesnt give me a lot of confidence that they will flex hugely. Hers a photo of my defender flexing , ironically at the launch of the new defender at our local Land Rover dealer. The Sunshine Coast Land Rover Owners club was invited back in 2018- or 9 was it?178566

[Tombie]

Agree. Ground force from solid axles up to their limit of travel is greater in most cases.

The IG is not designed to have ultra travel, it’s pitched as a rugged tourer - and no issues with that at all, as a wheel in the air locked means 3 are still working and that’s better than an wheel on ground with no load on it - no load = no traction.


I’ll reiterate- we really like the IG. They’ve done a good job.
At a lower price point it would be easy to go for and take the chance.

Once it gets into its current pricing though I’ll stick with established gear. Heck, I wouldn’t bail at using a new LR as a full on tourer and would be perfectly confident it would do the job - even with its curves (which everyone seems to have an aversion to [emoji6])

I hope it (IG) does do well, and in a few years I’ll reconsider it.
We will still be taking a production version out for a run and see how it turned out.

I look forward to seeing one in our town at some stage!

[Homestar]

Agree Tombie - Taking a production unit for a good drive is an absolute must for me, there’s no way I’m buying one based off the prototype. Hopefully on around 18 months or so - we should know a lot more about them and their future by then I should think.

[Rok_Dr]

Well I finally got to look over the Grenadier prototype today. Its been a while getting to WA and a mechanical issue earlier in the week delayed things by a couple of days.

Overall, I like it. Despite the rough edges, plethora of 3d printed parts and wear and tear, it still felt a very solid vehicle and reasonably refined. It certainly would be a suitable replacement for Charlie. Not too big, seating is comfortable, second row leg room is acceptable, the cargo area is big enough for my needs and it has enough refinements. From a passenger’s perspective it rides well, both in the front and rear seats. I think the rear seat fold down could have been better designed but its liveable.

Would buy one? Honestly I‘m not sure at present. I think the asking prices are fair for what they are offering, but $100K plus on roads makes one pause and think. Today the Trailmaster with alloys, side steps and cargo barrier would be my spec of choice but I would like to see a production version.

Other snippets of info I picked up in discussions:


Luxury car tax is still in play and they have made a submission to the ATO for an exemption on the basis that the Landcruiser 70 series and Jeep Rubicon are both exempt. This will be resolved prior to vehicle deliveries starting, but $ will be applied on the initial order and adjusted if necessary, once the ATO decision is received.
New Australian brochure is imminent which will have a lot more detail.
½ Cargo barrier apparently will meet Australian standards and is dual position.
Trailer electric plug formats are still being finalised. You will be able to wire in an Anderson plug, but may need to fit either the Aux charge points or switch panel and electrical prep options. I’m not sure whether one or both will be required. That said it would be an easy run from the battery.
They are talking to Redarc about electric brake controllers and may mount it in the overhead panel.
Tow ball weight will be 350kg. Hitch receiver and ball will be both 50mm standard.
Aux battery will be under rear DS passenger seat.
Australian vehicle weights are not quite finalised. Expect some slight differences compared to overseas figures
Air bags will not be in the front seats, My recollection is positions are front, side curtain and B pillar. 6 total.
West Aust dealers will be Magic in Vic Park and Geraldton.
A consumer grade diagnostic tool option isn’t in plan at present.
Asia Pac spares warehousing and backup will be based in Melbourne.
They are seeing up to 800km range on a tank in highway driving.


Cheers
Steve

[spudfan]

But keeping the wheels on the ground is the main thing. 178566
The only advantage of taking the Mrs off roading....

[Mules]

For those Defence affiliated or themselves a DVA card holder, APOD (Australian Partners of Defence) have an offer to cover the cost of $1500 of any vehicle accessories for the Grenadier. You will need to be registered on their website.

Ineos working hard on the early buyer target market... It certainly helps as those options add up faster than most would like.

Cheers

[Deefa]

Well I finally got to look over the Grenadier prototype today. Its been a while getting to WA and a mechanical issue earlier in the week delayed things by a couple of days.

Overall, I like it. Despite the rough edges, plethora of 3d printed parts and wear and tear, it still felt a very solid vehicle and reasonably refined. It certainly would be a suitable replacement for Charlie. Not too big, seating is comfortable, second row leg room is acceptable, the cargo area is big enough for my needs and it has enough refinements. From a passenger’s perspective it rides well, both in the front and rear seats. I think the rear seat fold down could have been better designed but its liveable.

Would buy one? Honestly I‘m not sure at present. I think the asking prices are fair for what they are offering, but $100K plus on roads makes one pause and think. Today the Trailmaster with alloys, side steps and cargo barrier would be my spec of choice but I would like to see a production version.

Other snippets of info I picked up in discussions:


Luxury car tax is still in play and they have made a submission to the ATO for an exemption on the basis that the Landcruiser 70 series and Jeep Rubicon are both exempt. This will be resolved prior to vehicle deliveries starting, but $ will be applied on the initial order and adjusted if necessary, once the ATO decision is received.
New Australian brochure is imminent which will have a lot more detail.
½ Cargo barrier apparently will meet Australian standards and is dual position.
Trailer electric plug formats are still being finalised. You will be able to wire in an Anderson plug, but may need to fit either the Aux charge points or switch panel and electrical prep options. I’m not sure whether one or both will be required. That said it would be an easy run from the battery.
They are talking to Redarc about electric brake controllers and may mount it in the overhead panel.
Tow ball weight will be 350kg. Hitch receiver and ball will be both 50mm standard.
Aux battery will be under rear DS passenger seat.
Australian vehicle weights are not quite finalised. Expect some slight differences compared to overseas figures
Air bags will not be in the front seats, My recollection is positions are front, side curtain and B pillar. 6 total.
West Aust dealers will be Magic in Vic Park and Geraldton.
A consumer grade diagnostic tool option isn’t in plan at present.
Asia Pac spares warehousing and backup will be based in Melbourne.
They are seeing up to 800km range on a tank in highway driving.


Cheers
Steve

Thanks for the additional information, very useful. I'm still leaning 60 percent for and 40 percent not. Problem is my wife says 100 percent yes. She doesn't like 70 series cruiser or. Even 300. Plus we have always had land Rovers. The Grenadier is more of the spirit of land rover than landrover. My wife more keen than me, A dilemma I have never had before!

[ozscott]

Thanks for the additional information, very useful. I'm still leaning 60 percent for and 40 percent not. Problem is my wife says 100 percent yes. She doesn't like 70 series cruiser or. Even 300. Plus we have always had land Rovers. The Grenadier is more of the spirit of land rover than landrover. My wife more keen than me, A dilemma I have never had before!The fact that in terms of how it looks and the point of difference/interest factor is what will sell a lot of them to LR tragics mate. Jeez I am tempted and for me I know it would be heart over head at this point [emoji1787]

[Hoges]

Well I finally got to look over the Grenadier prototype today. Its been a while getting to WA and a mechanical issue earlier in the week delayed things by a couple of days.

Overall, I like it. Despite the rough edges, plethora of 3d printed parts and wear and tear, it still felt a very solid vehicle and reasonably refined. It certainly would be a suitable replacement for Charlie. Not too big, seating is comfortable, second row leg room is acceptable, the cargo area is big enough for my needs and it has enough refinements. From a passenger’s perspective it rides well, both in the front and rear seats. I think the rear seat fold down could have been better designed but its liveable.

Would buy one? Honestly I‘m not sure at present. I think the asking prices are fair for what they are offering, but $100K plus on roads makes one pause and think. Today the Trailmaster with alloys, side steps and cargo barrier would be my spec of choice but I would like to see a production version.

Other snippets of info I picked up in discussions:


Luxury car tax is still in play and they have made a submission to the ATO for an exemption on the basis that the Landcruiser 70 series and Jeep Rubicon are both exempt. This will be resolved prior to vehicle deliveries starting, but $ will be applied on the initial order and adjusted if necessary, once the ATO decision is received.
New Australian brochure is imminent which will have a lot more detail.
½ Cargo barrier apparently will meet Australian standards and is dual position.
Trailer electric plug formats are still being finalised. You will be able to wire in an Anderson plug, but may need to fit either the Aux charge points or switch panel and electrical prep options. I’m not sure whether one or both will be required. That said it would be an easy run from the battery.
They are talking to Redarc about electric brake controllers and may mount it in the overhead panel.
Tow ball weight will be 350kg. Hitch receiver and ball will be both 50mm standard.
Aux battery will be under rear DS passenger seat.
Australian vehicle weights are not quite finalised. Expect some slight differences compared to overseas figures
Air bags will not be in the front seats, My recollection is positions are front, side curtain and B pillar. 6 total.
West Aust dealers will be Magic in Vic Park and Geraldton.
A consumer grade diagnostic tool option isn’t in plan at present.
Asia Pac spares warehousing and backup will be based in Melbourne.
They are seeing up to 800km range on a tank in highway driving.


Cheers
Steve

That's very useful info, thanks Steve.
I'm wondering if the "Utility" version without the 3-person passenger seat might be the first candidate for LCT relief... but as the Jeep rubicon qualifies I'm thinking that the Jeep case was a "private" ruling which may flow to the yet-to-be announced IG dual cab, but not the station wagon, though they might accept the predominantly "cargo" nature of the "Utility" version for LCT relief. In the early specs, the "Utility" version had an optional 3 seat module in the cargo area. That's not in the latest specs -even the UK ones. There was early chatter about the Utility version in the UK being targetted for "Commercial" classification to qualify for UK tax relief. The latest specs seem to support that approach....

[rar110]

Why we comparing a 300 series with a Ineos - they are a different class of vehicle - might as well as compare a Ineos with FF RR.

Need to compare apples with apples - Ineos competes with the Toyota 70 series in Aust - I really dont see anything else - except maybe for a basic Defender.

I think an Ineos is more comparable to a LC300 or Prado than a 70 series.

70 series is part time 4wd, no auto, has the dreaded different rear track, leaf rears, and a far different price point without upgrades. The 70 series and Ineos are both boxy, that’s about it.

[Arapiles]

Other snippets of info I picked up in discussions:



Luxury car tax is still in play and they have made a submission to the ATO for an exemption on the basis that the Landcruiser 70 series and Jeep Rubicon are both exempt. This will be resolved prior to vehicle deliveries starting, but $ will be applied on the initial order and adjusted if necessary, once the ATO decision is received.


This is the Toyota LCT exemption ruling:

https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document'docid=clr/cr201281/nat/ato/00001

Toyota's tax advisers evidently convinced the ATO that having a ladder chassis, solid axles and limited seating makes them exempt:

63. The Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule - Definitionsand Vehicle Categories) 2005, (ADR) (The Australian Design Rules)states that:A vehicle constructed for both the carriage of persons and thecarriage of goods shall be considered to be primarily for the carriageof goods if the number of seating positions times 68kg is less than50 percent of the difference between the 'Gross Vehicle Mass' andthe 'Un-laden Mass'.

65. From the information provided, in relation to the gross vehiclemass, un-laden mass and the seating capacity including the driver, itis concluded that the majority of the designed load carrying capacityof the LC70 vehicles is not attributable to their passenger carryingcapacity.

That doesn't really gel with one of the three listed vehicles being called a "Troop Carrier".

And presumably they didn't apply for an exemption for the Workmate Troop Carrier because it only seats 2 and is therefore presumably a commercial vehicle.

[3toes]

For the UK market they will need this to meet commercial vehicle requirements. If it does not will be subject to passenger car tax. If that is the case will be unsaleable.

You see a lot of SWB Defenders as they are commercial while the LWB is passenger

[grey_ghost]

For the UK market they will need this to meet commercial vehicle requirements. If it does not will be subject to passenger car tax. If that is the case will be unsaleable.

You see a lot of SWB Defenders as they are commercial while the LWB is passenger

I also believe that the UK “hard top” Defenders are considered commercial because of the missing rear seats.

[3toes]

That is part of the requirements. It is more technical than that. Why make it simple ….

Tax people have been fighting a case through the courts here for a few years about vans with or without seats behind the driver.

This case has wider implications across the vehicle fleet not just vans. Was raised as business had moved from passenger car station wagons to vans which reduced the tax take. A wagon was car tax commercial tax is a lot lower flat rate.

They have won the case and people are going to have retrospective tax bills of thousands head their way as car tax is a percentage of income. Manufacturers have altered the vans so new ones meet the revised interpretation of the rules once again keeping them in the commercial vehicle tax class.

Tax office considering what to do next to stop people ‘dodging’ their tax obligations

[Rok_Dr]

That's very useful info, thanks Steve.
I'm wondering if the "Utility" version without the 3-person passenger seat might be the first candidate for LCT relief... but as the Jeep rubicon qualifies I'm thinking that the Jeep case was a "private" ruling which may flow to the yet-to-be announced IG dual cab, but not the station wagon, though they might accept the predominantly "cargo" nature of the "Utility" version for LCT relief. In the early specs, the "Utility" version had an optional 3 seat module in the cargo area. That's not in the latest specs -even the UK ones. There was early chatter about the Utility version in the UK being targetted for "Commercial" classification to qualify for UK tax relief. The latest specs seem to support that approach....

I got the feeling that Ineos's submission covers both utility and wagon. As to the Rubicon I didn't think to ask whether it was either the Gladiator or Wangler or both that are exempted.

For Australia at least the 5 seat utility version isn't a starter and looking at the Ineos UK web site it appears to be the same there as well.

Cheers

Steve

[ramblingboy42]

quote...APOD (Australian Partners of Defence) have an offer to cover the cost of $1500 of any vehicle accessories for the Grenadier.

I searched this , I'm an Apod member , it covers factory fitted accessories which cant be sighted until vehicle is in full production ....as far as I can ascertain.

Unfortunately , lots of Apod offers are difficult to qualify for....I have tried a few.

Dennis

[Mules]

Thanks Dennis, I've never tried so I'll take your word for it. Sounds about right.

I hope you're wrong though!

Cheers

[101RRS]

We had various similar schemes when I was serving - they are great on paper but in reality somewhat less so - if buying something you had to declare you were using the discount and of course greedy sellers just took that into account. You couldn't for example do a deal for a new car and then whip out the Defence Card and get an extra discount - wasn't always the case but often was.

This is not the organisation that runs these schemes fault, just how they work in practice.

[spudfan]

I have read that the Grenadier will feature aluminium doors and bonnet to help reduce weight. Funny that last incarnation of the old Defender went in the other direction and replaced the aluminium doors and bonnet with ones made from steel. Just an observation, nothing to be read into it.

[chuck]

Priced up the Grenadier Fieldmaster Edition on their website tonight.

Built a nice vehicle with winch, lockers, snorkel & a few other extras

Car came to $112,640 before on roads
Luxury car tax approximately $13,400
On roads in Vic i.e. rego & stamp duty approximately $8000
So total of $134,000 approximately

If Ineos get the LCT exemption and it is a big if, then approx $120,000 on road

Given their target was originally 70 series Toyota it is a long way off although admittedly more luxurious

[ozscott]

Priced up the Grenadier Fieldmaster Edition on their website tonight.

Built a nice vehicle with winch, lockers, snorkel & a few other extras

Car came to $112,640 before on roads
Luxury car tax approximately $13,400
On roads in Vic i.e. rego & stamp duty approximately $8000
So total of $134,000 approximately

If Ineos get the LCT exemption and it is a big if, then approx $120,000 on road

Given their target was originally 70 series Toyota it is a long way off although admittedly more luxuriousYep mate it's a problem I reckon for a 130k leap of faith. Cheers

[Deefa]

Priced up the Grenadier Fieldmaster Edition on their website tonight.

Built a nice vehicle with winch, lockers, snorkel & a few other extras

Car came to $112,640 before on roads
Luxury car tax approximately $13,400
On roads in Vic i.e. rego & stamp duty approximately $8000
So total of $134,000 approximately

If Ineos get the LCT exemption and it is a big if, then approx $120,000 on road

Given their target was originally 70 series Toyota it is a long way off although admittedly more luxurious

I doubt there going to sell many feildmaster edition vehicles. The Trailmaster is much more value. Mine came to 116k Pretty much the standard trailmaster which has lots of fruit anyway. Lockers, snorkel etc, ladder etc. Still sitting on the fence really but now im on the barbed wire part and its getting uncomfortable!178803

[Xtreme]

I doubt there going to sell many feildmaster edition vehicles. The Trailmaster is much more value. Mine came to 116k Pretty much the standard trailmaster which has lots of fruit anyway. Lockers, snorkel etc, ladder etc. Still sitting on the fence really but now im on the barbed wire part and its getting uncomfortable!178803
And they are now accepting orders.

[shanegtr]

Not that I'm in the market for one, but if I was my configuration come in at $94,380. Basic version with diff locks, 17" alloys and a handful of other options
$94,380.00


$94,380.00

[rar110]

I’m starting to look at fitting my 200tdi 110 (with blown motor) with a M57 & 6hp26 or R380.

[Deefa]

I’m starting to look at fitting my 200tdi 110 (with blown motor) with a M57 & 6hp26 or R380.

Nice! I have been doing some research on this. Check out Juice motors in the UK on Youtube. Its a great combination. Much more power and torque. I wouldn't go for the manual R380 though. They are not very strong. I have a chipped and modified Td5 and it destroyed the bearing behind the fifth gear a few years back. What happens with a more powerful engine is you tend to keep it in a higher gear going along the highway up hills, putting way more strain on the rear bearing which is very small. It eventually collapses. I think their is a mod by Ashcroft that uses two bearings or at least a larger bearing, but you have to dismantle the whole gearbox and get the box machined from memory. The 6 speed ZF Auto is a far better combo. Good luck with that it would be awesome. I would love to do the conversion with mine but there is not enough time available for me.

As for the Grenadier I have decided to go ahead and will sell my Defender which I have had for 17 years while prices are still high. That will pay for a large chunk of the admittingly higher than expected price of the Grenadier.
Its like having a cool Old school Defender with all the problems sorted and way more power and Torque, safety, brakes that actually work well, 5 year warranty and you dont get wet when it rains. Hopefully anyway.

[cripesamighty]

I know some people don't like him (for valid reasons!) but here is Andrew SP White's vid (17/5/22) on his recent drive in the pre-production Grenadier when it came to WA. He has some good things to say.

What is INEOS GRENADIER'S BIGGEST SHORTCOMING? PAYLOAD or RANGE? My first impressions | 4xOverland - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIRX7G1leuU)

[Homestar]

I know some people don't like him (for valid reasons!) but here is Andrew SP White's vid (17/5/22) on his recent drive in the pre-production Grenadier when it came to WA. He has some good things to say.

What is INEOS GRENADIER'S BIGGEST SHORTCOMING? PAYLOAD or RANGE? My first impressions | 4xOverland - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIRX7G1leuU)

He's still a tool (IMO)

[cripesamighty]

I had an email conversation with him several years ago to offer some specific advice (that 'Drivesafe' on here mentioned) on how he was setting up one of his vehicle builds. I got roasted (toasty on both sides) in a long return email. Move along a few months and surprise, surprise, after a shakedown trip, he had to rejig the vehicle. Each to their own I guess.

[Tombie]

Yep. Had similarly aggressive comments from him when offering some suggestions.

Also got abused when pointing out (to him) during some of his product reviews, he doesn’t use the product as designed and then belittles it when it’s his technical ineptitude that caused the problems experienced.

Last I checked I was firmly banned/blocked from all his social media platforms.

I have met him in person, he’s the kinda person you really cannot spend more than 30 seconds with before wanting to slap them.

[Pirate]

Yep. Had similarly aggressive comments from him when offering some suggestions.

Also got abused when pointing out (to him) during some of his product reviews, he doesn’t use the product as designed and then belittles it when it’s his technical ineptitude that caused the problems experienced.

Last I checked I was firmly banned/blocked from all his social media platforms.

I have met him in person, he’s the kinda person you really cannot spend more than 30 seconds with before wanting to slap them.



Haha yep he strikes me to be one of those whose opinion is the only one that matters.

However on his review that Gav shared above I tend to agree with his assessment on the Grenadier.

I also found the pedal layout and footrest that covers an intrusion caused by the exhaust routing a bit weird. I didn’t alter the seat height that may make it feel a little less weird.

As for fuel load I’ve dealt with the 75ltr in the Defender for the last 22 years so an extra 15 is a bonus 😬

Mines ordered but won’t be selling the defender

[Deefa]

Haha yep he strikes me to be one of those whose opinion is the only one that matters.

However on his review that Gav shared above I tend to agree with his assessment on the Grenadier.

I also found the pedal layout and footrest that covers an intrusion caused by the exhaust routing a bit weird. I didn’t alter the seat height that may make it feel a little less weird.

As for fuel load I’ve dealt with the 75ltr in the Defender for the last 22 years so an extra 15 is a bonus 😬

Mines ordered but won’t be selling the defender

Wish I didn't have to sell my Defender but cant afford not to. Did you get an estimated build date? They supposed to have sent a build date within 24 hours I paid the deposit on Friday but still no build date.

[Hoges]

Wish I didn't have to sell my Defender but cant afford not to. Did you get an estimated build date? They supposed to have sent a build date within 24 hours I paid the deposit on Friday but still no build date.

check into your "Account" on the IG website. Click on where it says "Orders" ...it initially may indicate there are none then it changes! I've still not received a separate confirmation, but there is a *.pdf doc with all the info. in the account section.

I finally put my deposit in after considerable thought... Went for the basic IG Station Wagon with the "rough pack" (= triple diffs and BFG KO2 tyres) plus a towbar. NO bullbar, winch or roof rack (won't clear the roller door frame otherwise) Came in at a shade over $90K with a final 'drive away' figure of $103K incl GST/LCT/Qld Stamp duty/ Rego/CTP/Dealer delivery! Was within a few hundred of what I conservatively estimated...didn't know what the delivery fee might be. Until they get some indication as to their success or otherwise in removing the LCT impost, I'll think about a few other things later.
Estimated build date Nov2022. I've read "somewhere" that the Ineos Aust management are seeking to get at least a few hundred Australian orders done all at once which would make sense instead of dribs and drabs...

[Deefa]

check into your "Account" on the IG website. Click on where it says "Orders" ...it initially may indicate there are none then it changes! I've still not received a separate confirmation, but there is a *.pdf doc with all the info. in the account section.

I finally put my deposit in after considerable thought... Went for the basic IG Station Wagon with the "rough pack" (= triple diffs and BFG KO2 tyres) plus a towbar. NO bullbar, winch or roof rack (won't clear the roller door frame otherwise) Came in at a shade over $90K with a final 'drive away' figure of $103K incl GST/LCT/Qld Stamp duty/ Rego/CTP/Dealer delivery! Was within a few hundred of what I conservatively estimated...didn't know what the delivery fee might be. Until they get some indication as to their success or otherwise in removing the LCT impost, I'll think about a few other things later.
Estimated build date Nov2022. I've read "somewhere" that the Ineos Aust management are seeking to get at least a few hundred Australian orders done all at once which would make sense instead of dribs and drabs...

Ive done that but it says ordered but not showing the build date. The document comes up but no information on that. Interesting as if you click on the link at the bottom of that document it goes back to the configuration and you can edit this. Ive done similar to you, just a basic SW with the rough pack and a few extras. As far as I can gather it comes with a towbar and the NAS spec towbar is an option as it is height adjustable. Could be wrong though. I figure ill add winch and bull bar as funds allow. Maybe there will be aftermarket gear soon enough after they come out.

[Hoges]

Ive done that but it says ordered but not showing the build date. The document comes up but no information on that. Interesting as if you click on the link at the bottom of that document it goes back to the configuration and you can edit this. Ive done similar to you, just a basic SW with the rough pack and a few extras. As far as I can gather it comes with a towbar and the NAS spec towbar is an option as it is height adjustable. Could be wrong though. I figure ill add winch and bull bar as funds allow. Maybe there will be aftermarket gear soon enough after they come out.

Thanks for the info. I re-checked the detailed specs for the standard IG and there's no mention of a towbar across the range as standard. I sent a question on the NAS tow hitch a while back because of the 1 7/8" spec'd towball and I was assured in writing that the NAS tow hitch would come with a 50mm towball. I didn't realise it was height adjustable...that's very handy!
I'm still wondering about side runners... whether to get them as factory fit or wait..it's a bit of a step-up with a 10+" ground clearance, esp. with my arthritic hip... and I'm not sure what inventory will be with the dealers at launch time...could take a while longer.
I deliberately left off the winch and bullbar.... carrying another 100kg over the front wheels for rare use... I'm thinking the diffs and KO2 tyres should provide sufficient capability for where I'll want to venture...

[FV1601]

Scant details on the winch provided, other than 5.5 ton rating and priced at $5430. Certainly seems well hidden, sorry, Integrated. I guess that means you do not need the bull bar ($1990) for mounting.
There is also a 2nd option of a removable 3.5 ton winch ($4050) which needs the front ($620) and rear ($740) tow points as well as the switch pack ($1805). Not sure where you are supposed to store this when not in use?
Bull bar, winch, Aux battery = $8480
Removable, tow points, aux battery = $8275.
My biggest quibble with the pricing is the winch, I suspect retro fitting our own will be the only affordable option.
As we are waiting on the dual cab release, we will be in a position to know way more before we lay out some dollars.
Rich.

[trout1105]

Bull bar, winch, Aux battery = $8480

Considering it cost me $4000 to fit an ARB Bull/Winch bar, 5T winch and a dual battery (with solar) to my D2a $8480 seems a bit extortive.

[ozscott]

Considering it cost me $4000 to fit an ARB Bull/Winch bar, 5T winch and a dual battery (with solar) to my D2a $8480 seems a bit extortive.When? I know what you mean, but there has been a Covid tax on everything in the last couple of years. Everything is dearer and considerably so with vehicles and their accessories. I could sell my 2.5 year old car now for more than I bought it for despite piling on the miles. And, getting it as manufacturer fitted is likely better than aftermarket in terms of fitment and you get vehicle manufacturer's warranty on those things and, no questions over any issues say that a bullbar might cause with overheating etc (and of course you would hope that the designs have been well tested to avoid, something aftermarket bull bar makers and winch installers just can't do). Cheers

[trout1105]

When? I know what you mean, but there has been a Covid tax on everything in the last couple of years. Everything is dearer and considerably so with vehicles and their accessories. I could sell my 2.5 year old car now for more than I bought it for despite piling on the miles. And, getting it as manufacturer fitted is likely better than aftermarket in terms of fitment and you get vehicle manufacturer's warranty on those things and, no questions over any issues say that a bullbar might cause with overheating etc (and of course you would hope that the designs have been well tested to avoid, something aftermarket bull bar makers and winch installers just can't do). Cheers

Most factory fitted bullbars are usually crap, Including Toyota Landrover and others and I cannot recall any problems with warranty or insurance issues with aftermarket bars being fitted.

[Samblers]

New to the Grenadier, and this thread. 110 owner with a L663 just ordered. Clearly i'm part of the target market.

I find this car both compelling and odd, in equal measure. The styling (and marketing vibe) is a real conundrum

- A Land Rover (no, it's not a Land Rover, It's an Ineos)
- but that's a Defender? (No. It's better)
- so it's a... copy? (no, just traditional looking)
- but it looks like the Defender (we call it familiar)
- so it'll be rattly and utilitarian? (no, totally modern and awesome)
- so it'll be exclusive (no, egalitarian)
- It's British? (Yes. well... Global)

All this entirely intentional of course - the reactions that Ineos want me/us to have - and will establish the initial interest in the brand. The marketing pitch adds fuel - positioning the car alongside high achievers, British iconography, and undertones of the armed forces. LR must be fuming.

My reaction? I'm interested, but a little sceptical. It feels awkward (and i'm British), or at least derivative. I wonder how it'll sit with other nationals. If it's a brand new concept, then make it so? But then it risks becoming another anonymous 4wd box. It's a difficult path to tread admittedly.

Perhaps once the car/brand has been established for a few years we'll see this car develop it's own character, but until then expect inevitable and frequent "so, it's... a Land Rover?" questions whilst converts do the hard work on Ineos' behalf.

Possible, however, to honour the values of our grandparents without wearing their clothes.

[ozscott]

Most factory fitted bullbars are usually crap, Including Toyota Landrover and others and I cannot recall any problems with warranty or insurance issues with aftermarket bars being fitted.When was your work done? And the Ineos one looks a bit heavier duty to me than the standard Toyo, Mitsubishi etc etc factory stuff. And, you may not but I have seen warranty issues on overheating or high temps on a number of vehicles where the dealer and manufacturer says aftermarket bullbar is the issue (and usually). I agree that we have good bars available here for most brands cheaper than manufacturers but have you priced a good one fitted lately...not pleasant.

[FV1601]

Bit of a look on the net and it sounds like it will be a RED winch with synthetic rope. Looks like it will be a bit of a squeeze to integrate it, so I assume it would be a lowline model. No 5500kg rated winch is shown on their website, the closest is a 6000kg lowline which retails at $5350 with rope,hook, and remote.
It appears my quibble about the Ineos pricing was unjustified....
Home | Red Winches Queensland (https://www.redwinchqld.com.au/dev/)
Rich.

[Hoges]

If you add the 33% LCT impost, plus State stamp duty (which is levied by including GST + LCT) the actual winch factory fit cost component in the IG drive away price, is north of A$7000+ [bawl]....

[Hoges]

I know some people don't like him (for valid reasons!) but here is Andrew SP White's vid (17/5/22) on his recent drive in the pre-production Grenadier when it came to WA. He has some good things to say.

What is INEOS GRENADIER'S BIGGEST SHORTCOMING? PAYLOAD or RANGE? My first impressions | 4xOverland - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIRX7G1leuU)

Interesting shortly thereafter he went on line to announce that he has just taken delivery of a brand new Troopy, supposedly the customer pulled out and now he has to sell it. cost him $80K ...yours for $108K ..."because you won't get another chance to buy a new Troopy until 2023"!
There was some sledging on line to which he responded along the lines of he admires "smart people" who make money... [bigrolf] "pompous" was the term which sprang to mind....

[trout1105]

When was your work done? And the Ineos one looks a bit heavier duty to me than the standard Toyo, Mitsubishi etc etc factory stuff. And, you may not but I have seen warranty issues on overheating or high temps on a number of vehicles where the dealer and manufacturer says aftermarket bullbar is the issue (and usually). I agree that we have good bars available here for most brands cheaper than manufacturers but have you priced a good one fitted lately...not pleasant.

About 5/6 years ago I fitted the bb and the rest, I am certain that prices haven't Doubled since then.
As for overheating issues it is usually the spotlights fitted to a factory or an aftermarket bar that is the culprit.

[ozscott]

About 5/6 years ago I fitted the bb and the rest, I am certain that prices haven't Doubled since then.
As for overheating issues it is usually the spotlights fitted to a factory or an aftermarket bar that is the culprit.Mate they have gone up very considerably as have the bits and pieces and labour/profit margins as operators are seizing opportunuties of people staying at home and spending up here...supply and demand. Some bullbars are way way to obstructive to airflow especially to the intercooler, and yep I agree spot lights can interrupt or impede flow but so can bad design (a few of those around) and winches sitting right in front of intercoolers and radiator. So overall whilst the vehicle is too dear for my blood the factory backed add ons likely fitted on the line appear quite keenly priced in my view. On that old mate Trout I suppose again we agree to disagree [emoji106] . Cheers !

[Tombie]

Mate they have gone up very considerably as have the bits and pieces and labour/profit margins as operators are seizing opportunuties of people staying at home and spending up here...supply and demand. Some bullbars are way way to obstructive to airflow especially to the intercooler, and yep I agree spot lights can interrupt or impede flow but so can bad design (a few of those around) and winches sitting right in front of intercoolers and radiator. So overall whilst the vehicle is too dear for my blood the factory backed add ons likely fitted on the line appear quite keenly priced in my view. On that old mate Trout I suppose again we agree to disagree [emoji106] . Cheers !

It’s not profit margins. It’s recovering spiralling costs.

Steel alone is 48% more expensive at the moment.

Bull Bar nowadays runs $2500+
A quality winch $3000+

Add fitting etc and easy to see it all add up.

[ozscott]

It’s not profit margins. It’s recovering spiralling costs.

Steel alone is 48% more expensive at the moment.

Bull Bar nowadays runs $2500+
A quality winch $3000+

Add fitting etc and easy to see it all add up.Yeah I agree spiralling costs are part of it including transport costs on large items and small. However I have seen some creep on profit in quotes as well as line item increases on the parts.

Certainly does add up. Cheers

[Tombie]

To those one here that are taking the plunge, I look forward to reading of your ownership experiences.

And truly hope it turns out a positive.

[ramblingboy42]

hmmm , when do we look like seeing the first Australian owner?

they may not be aulro members.....

[Xtreme]

hmmm , when do we look like seeing the first Australian owner?

they may not be aulro members.....
They may even be AUIGO Members :whistling:

But they'll never match AULRO :thumbsup:

[Tombie]

They may even be AUIGO Members :whistling:

But they'll never match AULRO :thumbsup:

Going by several in the FB group (which I’ve left) it will be more a Toyota vibe. Sadly…

[Hoges]

Another good reason not to go on Facebook![bigwhistle]

[ozscott]

Speaking of Facebook, the new pricing from ARB for their gear for the new Ranger is $4,000 fitted for the Summit Bar MKII so Grenadier is within the range for factory fitted bullbars especially for much wider markets where design and safety has a much wider compliance requirement. Cheers

[Deefa]

So far baring some financial disaster I will be getting mine at the end of 2022. Sadly my defender will have to go. But it's been a bit needy lately and I am losing patience with spending more weekend's fixing it than using it.

[prelude]

So, I've been to the "abenteuer und allrad messe" again this year, finally since the coofs got in the way the previous years and there must have been at least half a dozen grenadiers there.

You could get a ride in both the diesel and the petrol version on a test track (no self driving). The ride was bumpy but it went pretty well through that terrain. ASPW has already commented on the footwell and I must agree with him on that. Since every ineos dealer that was on the messe also had a grenadier standing around I got to see half a dozen of them up real close and personal (all test mules) and I am impressed by how beefy the suspension and drive train parts are. This has been discussed in many a youtubers video but seeing it up close and personal is a different thing.

For those not in the know, the shocks are koni's, the transfercase is a custom build tremec, the brakes are brembo, the axles are made by carraro, the springs are made by eibach. All pretty good brands in themselves.

I can see this car fulfilling quite a few needs for most people so I guess it can become quite popular but all in all I think I will not be buying one for a few simple reasons:


I want to build an overlander vehicle and what I really need is a pop-top camper. The ineos roof does not lend itself for that I reckon. I am sure some companies will take on this challenge but I think it is not going to work out well.
load carrying capacity: we know it to be on the low side but the type approval plates in the doors of the test mules stated a 1 tonne loading capacity. I wonder what happened to the rest? :)
the position of the rear exhaust muffler and the accompanying bash plate is a real sand scoop and it will no doubt be perfect for collecting grass to ignite. I tremendously stupid decision when you look at how well designed most other parts of the vehicle are
price. It is simply way to expensive. I know it's a much "better" car than the old defender it "replaced" but at 60k starting price it's just at least 10K too steep I feel (in euro's)

add to that, that in my "lovely" country you pay a ridiculous amount of tax on CO2 which will probably turn out to be around another 60k for a total of 120k euro's...



...and the car is out for me. A shame since I did really like the concept and I would like to put my money where my mouth is, ie. support a company that makes a product I really want (solid axle no bs car) but not in this price bracket.

Anyway, it was nice to get up and close to so many of them all at once :)

Cheers,
-P

[spudfan]

I got the latest newsletter today. Seems they are sponsoring the All Blacks in New Zealand. They have INEOS on their shorts.
All Videos & Images | INEOS Grenadier (https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/ie/films-and-images?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Newsletter)

[Samblers]

confirmed today that Ineos Grenadier will be LCT exempt in Australia...

[simonmelb]

Yep good news. But still a $100k risk with a new vehicle and new business. I do hope it succeeds and look forward to Version 2 with the bugs ironed out!

Personally Im not keen on the rear seat arrangement - I really like the D2 setup where you can tilt the seat base forwards to get a flat floor or remove them entirely and nothing in the way for a big load area. That huge electrical spare battery frame thing on the Ineos under the rears seats is a big waste of space. I spose you could put a water tank in there!


confirmed today that Ineos Grenadier will be LCT exempt in Australia...

[Redtail]

confirmed today that Ineos Grenadier will be LCT exempt in Australia...

But website still doesn't seem to be updated? Unless LCT is about $100? [bighmmm]

[DiscoDB]

But website still doesn't seem to be updated? Unless LCT is about $100? [bighmmm]

The website price only included GST, but excluded any other taxes that may be applicable. So I would suggest it was already showing the price without LCT included.

[Redtail]

The website price only included GST, but excluded any other taxes that may be applicable. So I would suggest it was already showing the price without LCT included.

And here I was hoping the price would drop by about 20% or whatever.

(Some people say I'm naïve, but I can't see it myself.)

[Samblers]

The website price only included GST, but excluded any other taxes that may be applicable. So I would suggest it was already showing the price without LCT included.

Once you go through to make a purchase (place $5k deposit) it calculated LCT and included in the total.

It no longer does this -> approx. 10k reduction now showing on same configuration versus previous

[Deefa]

Good news indeed.

[DiscoDB]

With a GVM of 3,550kg, it has been classed as a Medium Goods Vehicle. So no ANCAP testing required.

LCT exemption cuts price of Ineos Grenadier | GoAuto (https://www.goauto.com.au/news/ineos/grenadier/lct-exemption-cuts-price-of-ineos-grenadier/2022-07-21/88495.html)

[Freightdog]

As the owner of a very capable D2, I had been looking for a long time for a replacement. Modern LR, no thanks, tyre profiles are useless, too many useless gadgets. Modern Toyota, well the 79’s came to mind, they are dependable and can carry a load, but that’s where it ends. Up springs the IG, solid axles and coils all round, just like the Disco 2 - only more modern. Yep that’s my baby, no BS, just a modern vehicle with the bare minimum to get it compliant. Lockers, coils, solid axles, minimum electronics, a solid drive train, and designed to be modified.

When my BFG K2’s wear out I will put some 33’s on it, maybe even a 2” lift as well. Won’t even need an engineering cert. Am going the B58 petrol, not as complex as the B57 diesel, doesn’t have the range, but that is where a long range tank or jerry cans come into the mix.

The machine is built with quality components in a modern factory. However, I know I am still some what of a guinea pig.

LR said they needed the big rims to fit in the big brakes, however IG with a GVM of 3,550 kg can brake with 17” rims - and still be able to tow 3,450 kg at its max GVM.

Let’s face it, the modern LR is a city car, trying to be country.

[Deefa]

As the owner of a very capable D2, I had been looking for a long time for a replacement. Modern LR, no thanks, tyre profiles are useless, too many useless gadgets. Modern Toyota, well the 79’s came to mind, they are dependable and can carry a load, but that’s where it ends. Up springs the IG, solid axles and coils all round, just like the Disco 2 - only more modern. Yep that’s my baby, no BS, just a modern vehicle with the bare minimum to get it compliant. Lockers, coils, solid axles, minimum electronics, a solid drive train, and designed to be modified.

When my BFG K2’s wear out I will put some 33’s on it, maybe even a 2” lift as well. Won’t even need an engineering cert. Am going the B58 petrol, not as complex as the B57 diesel, doesn’t have the range, but that is where a long range tank or jerry cans come into the mix.

The machine is built with quality components in a modern factory. However, I know I am still some what of a guinea pig.

LR said they needed the big rims to fit in the big brakes, however IG with a GVM of 3,550 kg can brake with 17” rims - and still be able to tow 3,450 kg at its max GVM.

Let’s face it, the modern LR is a city car, trying to be country.
Agreed with a lot of points here. Interested that you went Petrol, perhaps because the price of diesel is so much more these days? Im thinking that with electric cars gradually phasing in, petrol will be less popular and perhaps cheaper or maybe more expensive. Could go either way. Diesel will be around for a long time as to replace the heavy vehicle fleet even if the technology was worked out (which it isn't) would take at least 10 to 15 years. Outback travel is almost only Diesel as many remote places don't have petrol. But it depends on what you want to use your vehicle for.

Love the concept of the Grenadier but its not going to be the ultimate 4wd as it was first touted as. Especially the fact that the live axle configuration is wasted when you have short arms that wont allow much more flex than a independent suspension set up. Also the body is way to low on the frame and the approach and departure angles are nothing to brag about. However despite these shortcomings I have ordered one despite really not being able to afford it. Heart overrules head. I think they will be a massive hit and the price will go north reflecting on the fact that they are going to be a low volume niche manufacturer. Maybe (but I could be wrong!) this will be the only chance to bag one for an introductory price. A gamble , sure.

[ramblingboy42]

its hard not to hijack a thread, rather than start a new one.

on the subject of petrol/diesel , diesel hasn't been fuel of choice for very long. I was a remote areas diesel fitter in the NT until 1978. Up until I left for a career change , nearly all vehicles in the Dept of Constructions fleet were petrol engines except for trucks over about 3 ton.

it was the same when I joined the army and its fleet until perentie and unimog was almost entirely petrol so diesel has really only had about 30yrs of use. petrol has always been available out bush as I have been doing my trips into the deserts for about that long and most of my associates have had petrol 4wds, 80's , 100's , 200's and now y62's. And those vehicles performed admirably some times fairing better than the insurgent diesel varieties , particularly where power to weight made a difference eg Simpson.

I think if I was buying a Grenadier I would opt for a petrol model.

[Tote]

its hard not to hijack a thread, rather than start a new one.

on the subject of petrol/diesel , diesel hasn't been fuel of choice for very long. I was a remote areas diesel fitter in the NT until 1978. Up until I left for a career change , nearly all vehicles in the Dept of Constructions fleet were petrol engines except for trucks over about 3 ton.

it was the same when I joined the army and its fleet until perentie and unimog was almost entirely petrol so diesel has really only had about 30yrs of use. petrol has always been available out bush as I have been doing my trips into the deserts for about that long and most of my associates have had petrol 4wds, 80's , 100's , 200's and now y62's. And those vehicles performed admirably some times fairing better than the insurgent diesel varieties , particularly where power to weight made a difference eg Simpson.

I think if I was buying a Grenadier I would opt for a petrol model.

I'll assist you with your Hijack :-)
SWMBO has a 1983 Jeep 1 tonner, having driven it I can well understand why diesel was not the primary choice for transport unless there was a particular need for the ability to haul heavy loads frugally. It gets about 13 -15l per 100KM regardless of the load applied. This was about the time that turbos started making light duty diesels more tolerable from a performance perspective given that the turbo version of the SD33 engine was fitted to the MQ patrols. On the other side of the ledger a mate and I drove a petrol MQ patrol to Cooktown and back in 1984 and used $2500.00 worth of fuel at 40 cents a litre, we got an average of about 23 litres/100KM. Those figures made the choice of diesel a much more attractive option at that time even with the pedestrian performance of a naturally aspirated diesel.

Moving forward the gains are much less obvious with modern vehicles, when we bought SWMBOs 2011 Wrangler we did the calculations on petrol vs diesel. The diesel engine was about a $6K option and we worked out that we would need to cover in excess of 500,000KM in order to recoup the price difference in fuel savings. I suspect that in most cases the choice between petrol and diesel in an Ineos is much more reliant on personal preference than economic considerations.

Regards,
Tote

[chuck]

Very interesting that the Petrol is the same price as the Diesel

Have not seen that before in a modern 4X4.

There is a school of thought that the divide between petrol and diesel may remain

The logic being that petrol cars may be somewhat replaced by electric cars & diesel will remain around longer for heavy transport or heavy machinery operation.

For example the diesel defender is way more expensive than the petrol + with the nearly 40 cents a litre divide between petrol & diesel then the diesel loses its cost benefit.

[JDNSW]

It can change over time, and as someone said "making accurate predictions is difficult, especially about the future!"

However - for example, when I was working in the Simpson in 1965-6, our operation was entirely petrol powered. I introduced the first diesel light vehicle when I replaced my petrol Series 2 with a diesel 2a. This was prompted largely by the loss by fire of one of our Landcruisers (petrol), which emphasised the flammability of the fuel and its ease of ignition in very hot conditioons (started by smoking with a petrol leak on the filler hose to the under-seat tank - a passenger lit up as soon as they pulled away from the refuelling point. With limited water the fire was impossible to extinguish.

My experience at the time was that wide torque band of the diesel enabled it to outperform the more powerful petrol Landcruisers. (Also helped by the Landrover having four instead of three gears and being lower geared, especially in low range, and the tendency of the Landcruisers to carburettor issues and vapor lock.)

Most of these differences have been minimised over the years. The one advantage I see for diesel currently is that it still has an advantage in fuel consumption, so that even though the cost advantage has substantially decreased for diesel, probably in some cases reversed, you can still go further with the same volume or even mass of fuel. Which for some driving, matters. And petrol is still more flammable.

But I can't predict the future, just look back and see how things have changed.

[prelude]

Assuming al you guys get this, but just to be sure: oz "testing":

Grenadier Trails Australia | INEOS Grenadier (https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/nl/films-and-images/grenadier-trails-australia?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Grenadier_Trails)

Cheers,
-P

[spudfan]

A couple of points. Some of that video would put me off buying a Grenadier. A couple of shots of the Grenadier haring around in circles tearing up the ground put me in mind of a advertisement I saw for a modern SUV car. That was in a field going round tearing things up to show off it's "off road credentials". Fair enough they were letting off steam so I'll park that there.
They seem to do everything at speed including the water on the road. I might not know much about outback driving but I do know about water on roads. They trouble with water on the road is that sometimes it is not always obvious if the water is coming up from a hole in the road or coming from the side or in an extreme case as a few years ago here, whether the road has been completely washed away including the bridge. Besides all of that water hitting your vehicle at speed cannot be good for the vehicle or indeed the driving trying to control it. Last week being a case in point here.
The wiper system seemed good and not flimsy which I like.
During the sand driving I noticed the fuel tank guard (?) at the back had sand draining from it from holes in it. Very good but if that was mud it would clog up.
When the back door was open I notice red dust on the inside of the door seal at the top but none on the inside of the door.
Heading up the sand dune the vehicle dug in but it got there.
Towing the Unimog, well I did something similar with a tractor and a trailer loaded with turf in the early 90's with a 90 turbo diesel. The tractor would not start so I was asked to give it a tow, which I did. The trouble was that once I began towing the tractor and trailer the ground began to shelve downwards until suddenly it was a modest slope. Now heading down a slope with a tractor pulling a loaded trailer with no brakes attached to your 90 is not a pleasant situation to be in. Think Jurassic Park with a T Rex in your rear view mirror but replaced by a battered Zetor tractor and you will have some idea of the situation.
I do not think there was anything in the video that you could not have done in your Defender. The difference being that the Grenadier seems to have it's various components built to a higher standard so should last longer, well that is what we are told.
I like the Grenadier but I do not think they need to pitch the vehicle advertising to the people who just point the vehicle, put the foot down and go. Still they know more about these things than me.

[Deefa]

Agreed, Marketing company probably engaged in selling the vehicle . No idea of what 4wding is about. Drives me mad as well seeing 4wds leaping over sand dunes and spraying water up everywhere.

[spudfan]

Agreed, Marketing company probably engaged in selling the vehicle . No idea of what 4wding is about. Drives me mad as well seeing 4wds leaping over sand dunes and spraying water up everywhere.

I know there are times when you need momentum.

[JDNSW]

The other point about driving fast through water - if you drive fast through a puddle, you will splash much of the mud in it so far clear that it does not run back in the hole. This is the mechanism that converts puddles into potholes. If you are a regular user of the road, you are well advised not to do it!

On the other hand, in a lot of cases you may have hundreds of kilometres to go today, so there is a strong incentive to not slow down.

[spudfan]

This is from Defender2. Someone paid a deposit and then decided not to go ahead after being driven around in one.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............
I did not like the rear seats, suspension or ctr dash.

The rear seats are very bolt upright and have no leg room, the suspension was not pleasant when off road and bounced all over - they made the excuse of "progressive springs" etc but it was just not good.

As for the dash, the driver could not see it and neither could the passenger, the screen just looked black from all angles even when looking directly at it.

We went from the garage car park to a field and never got out of low ratio. The field was grass but had some ruts and we literally bounced over them as a slow speed.

It was enough to convince me to cancel my order and stick with my P400 - I was going to have both but felt the Grenadier was a step back from the old Defender let alone the new one
Here is the link
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Deposit Refund? (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83706-15.html)

[prelude]

The bouncyness I can concur. On the other hand, once loaded up I reckon it should be better. I did not sit in the back seats so I can not comment on that, but from what I saw standing next to the car poking my nose in they are as hard as the rear seats in a bmw X3 for instance ( a church pew comes to mind).

Regarding the 4wd donuts in the film; that was on private property (a mine I believe) so they are entitled to play as much as they like. Sure, we do not need such showing off but hey, it was fine there. Even though they had gotten permission to evacuate they did tear up that pretty badly when they had to take two goes at pulling a generator trailer through.

All in all my opinion has not changed. I would love to support this product for the plain and simple reason that they have built an ACTUAL 4wd as much within the needs and desires of most 4wd enthousiast, professionals and fleet owners alike but the compromises made (engines for the environment with way too much plastic and electronics, weird exhaust setup, DPF protruding into the right hand side foot well, etc.) combined with the unholy taxation making the car unaffordable down here still makes that I am out. It's a bit sad really.

Cheers,
-P

[Mules]

This is from Defender2. Someone paid a deposit and then decided not to go ahead after being driven around in one.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............
I did not like the rear seats, suspension or ctr dash.

The rear seats are very bolt upright and have no leg room, the suspension was not pleasant when off road and bounced all over - they made the excuse of "progressive springs" etc but it was just not good.

As for the dash, the driver could not see it and neither could the passenger, the screen just looked black from all angles even when looking directly at it.

We went from the garage car park to a field and never got out of low ratio. The field was grass but had some ruts and we literally bounced over them as a slow speed.

It was enough to convince me to cancel my order and stick with my P400 - I was going to have both but felt the Grenadier was a step back from the old Defender let alone the new one
Here is the link
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Deposit Refund? (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83706-15.html)May I suggest that all this highlights is that people should really go and make an informed decision based on their own experience, rather than take words on any forum as gospel...

It was a pretty unproductive review. For a start the black dash in front of the driver, if that is what he is referring to, by all accounts should be dark until such time as a warning light comes on? (Hopefully not often...)

Most telling is finding out what people currently drive, because that will generally be the lens through which they perceive the merits or otherwise of this new vehicle.

I've ordered the vehicle, but I could discredit it in 5 mins if I choose to focus on what I perceive are its shortcomings (and there are of course compromises). Instead I'd prefer to be grateful that there is a viable live-axle option outside of old models, or the Toyo and Jeep line up. How lucky we are to have another tool in the shed to choose from.

[spudfan]

Maybe INEOS could offer two rates of suspension like Land Rover did i.e. normal and heavy duty.

[spudfan]

The latest update. From this it seems they have faith in the reliability of the Grenadier.
The new INEOS Grenadier is almost here.
As a no nonsense 4X4, it’s built on purpose to excel off-road. And we want to offer everyone who orders one an exclusive chance to put it through its paces. In a truly memorable way.
To mark the first customer deliveries later this year, we’re inviting three European and UK based Grenadier owners to pick up their new Grenadier. Not from the local agent, but from us, at an undisclosed off-road location.
If selected, you’ll face an epic journey: driving your Grenadier the hard way home. Starting in one of Europe’s wildest and most isolated regions, you’ll face extremely challenging off-road terrain and have the chance to put your new vehicle to the test. A proper handover, for a proper off-roader. On us. Sound interesting?
Think you can handle taking the hard way home? Apply here before 31st August 2022.
Best of luck,
The Grenadier Team

[ozscott]

The latest update. From this it seems they have faith in the reliability of the Grenadier.
The new INEOS Grenadier is almost here.
As a no nonsense 4X4, it’s built on purpose to excel off-road. And we want to offer everyone who orders one an exclusive chance to put it through its paces. In a truly memorable way.
To mark the first customer deliveries later this year, we’re inviting three European and UK based Grenadier owners to pick up their new Grenadier. Not from the local agent, but from us, at an undisclosed off-road location.
If selected, you’ll face an epic journey: driving your Grenadier the hard way home. Starting in one of Europe’s wildest and most isolated regions, you’ll face extremely challenging off-road terrain and have the chance to put your new vehicle to the test. A proper handover, for a proper off-roader. On us. Sound interesting?
Think you can handle taking the hard way home? Apply here before 31st August 2022.
Best of luck,
The Grenadier TeamClever.

Cheers

[Deefa]

I wonder if they will offer this to Australian buyers. Now that would be a real adventure.

[spudfan]

Yep, trans Europe, the Middle East, India, South East Asia then a car Ferry to Arnhem Land and down through home ground. It'll be well run in by the time you get home. One way of finding out whether you like the seats or not.

[Tote]

Toyota could do the same here...."due to the excessive demand for new Land Cruisers the dealer can't be assed to get it to you, instead you need to pick it up from the dock and drive it home yourself" [biggrin]

Regards,
Tote

[spudfan]

I am in Ireland so I was wondering who will be selling the Grenadier. It seems the only agent in Ireland will be ORANGEWORKS AUTOMOTIVE. Seems they have a presence in the U.K. too. What they do is corporate events for the motor industry and clients include Land Rover and Jaguar. It says that they will be doing sales and servicing. I know they are pushing the reliability of the vehicle but the only outlet here is 170 miles from me. I thought they had some other model in mind.
Automotive Launches & Driver Training Ireland | Orangeworks (https://www.orangeworks.ie/automotive-launches/)
As an aside Ineos do say that the 5 seat station wagon version has more knee room for the second row passengers than the 5 seat utility. I presume this is to give the utility 5 seat the necessary load space length to qualify for the N1 status.
So the 5 seat station wagon classed as M1 with the extra knee room will cost €2350 per year road tax.
The utility 5 seat classed as N1 with the more upright middle row seating and less knee room will cost €1200 per year road tax. So it depends how often you are going to use that middle row seating if you opt for 5 seats.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................................
STATION WAGON

The Grenadier Station Wagon is a 5-seater passenger vehicle, available at launch in one of our two Belstaff editions. Emphasis is slightly more on passenger comfort than loadspace capacity, with more knee room for second row passengers compared with the 5-seat Utility Wagon.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
UTILITY WAGON

The Grenadier Utility Wagon is certified as a commercial vehicle and is available in both two- and five-seat configurations. The two-seat version has a full-length flat floor capable of taking a standard Euro Pallet (1,200mm x 800mm), whilst the five-seat provides the optimum balance between payload and passenger carrying capability

[scarry]

Toyota could do the same here...."due to the excessive demand for new Land Cruisers the dealer can't be assed to get it to you, instead you need to pick it up from the dock and drive it home yourself" [biggrin]

Regards,
Tote

As could LR with new Defender[wink11]

A mate got his last week,22" wheels [bighmmm]FFS

[ramblingboy42]

will JLR really warrant those 22" wheels against damage if the vehicle is driven where they claim it can go.

I mean if you drive it (airborn and fast) just like their current advertising a la james bond is it ok if it breaks or if it rolls doing what they show you?

[Tote]

will JLR really warrant those 22" wheels against damage if the vehicle is driven where they claim it can go.

I mean if you drive it (airborn and fast) just like their current advertising a la james bond is it ok if it breaks or if it rolls doing what they show you?

Would they warrant 20" rims in the same scenario? I'd say not. Looking at the discussion reminds me of the early days of the D3 section when the sky was going to fall because they came with 18" and 19" wheels.

Regards,
Tote

[Xtreme]

Would they warrant 20" rims in the same scenario? I'd say not. Looking at the discussion reminds me of the early days of the D3 section when the sky was going to fall because they came with 18" and 19" wheels.

Regards,
Tote

Similar scenario with independant suspension, electronics etc ............... but there is a limit with some things. :whistling:

[Tote]

Similar scenario with independant suspension, electronics etc ............... but there is a limit with some things. :whistling:

Yeah, I have enough gutter rash on the secondhand 21"rims on the RRS that I'm running (not all mine) I don't think they would last long offroad, much less the original 22" rims.

Regards,
Tote

[Samblers]

Looking at the discussion reminds me of the early days of the D3 section when the sky was going to fall because they came with 18" and 19" wheels.

Regards,
Tote

First World Problem... far from a catastrophe, yet the line must be drawn.

These design/ marketing decisions seem indicative of a longer-term ambition by LR to pander to urban vanities, rather than to practical needs. For example, LR's offer of 20" (minimum) rims on the New Def D300 is fine for many, but needs to be read in conjunction with the strong desire (and effort/ $$$$$) of many who chose to retrofit 18's - an endeavour seeming crazy to me.

Bullbar is another complicated example. The New Def just seems to resist straightforward accessorisation.

This is my personal reckoning with the ND, resulting in the cancellation of my order, and whose postscript came yesterday: I opened the door of one and, to my great surprise and wonder, electric side steps popped out.

Times have changed.

"Where has the defender wave gone?" - I'd suggest it's gone into 22" rims and electric side steps.

[scarry]

reminds me of the early days of the D3 section when the sky was going to fall because they came with 18" and 19" wheels.

Regards,
Tote

The 19” rim size is not much more than a disaster for off road work,yet some manufacturers continued with the silly size.There are still very few tyres available in the size,and none in a high load rated LT.

18” wasn’t much better,when the D3 turned up,but the tyre manufacturers have now come to the party.

[prelude]

Although I fully agree on the rim/tyre size and electric step thingy, we must keep one thing in mind. Offroading is a dying thing. I understand from the perspective of australians this is hardly the case, but most if not all markets require less and less go anywhere vehicles. To my great dismay, since I want to travel the world as I have seen it through the eyes of a young boy enamored by for instance the camel trophy, africa has been largely paved, mostly by the chinese. The road to maun for example was infamously bad, today it's a nice stretch of tarmac.

Sure there is plenty of hard stuff left locally but by and far in many locations around the world roads are getting built or are getting better. The places that need more than a pretty soccer moms car are shrinking by the minute :(

Cheers,
-P

PS I would not buy a new 130 btw, for those same reasons :)

[JDNSW]

Try getting in to my place at the moment! (It's bad enough in the dry, but with the ground already saturated, it has rained all day today.)

[Samblers]

... we must keep one thing in mind. Offroading is a dying thing. I understand from the perspective of australians this is hardly the case, but most if not all markets require less and less go anywhere vehicles.

prelude, you make an excellent point... at least in terms of vehicular access to adventurous places.

Australia is somewhat exceptional, and this is a problem for Australians - clearly it's more commercially attractive for manufacturers to please the global masses, rather than to cater for extremes.

[scarry]

prelude, you make an excellent point... at least in terms of vehicular access to adventurous places.

Australia is somewhat exceptional, and this is a problem for Australians - clearly it's more commercially attractive for manufacturers to please the global masses, rather than to cater for extremes.

Africa is just as bad,we were in East Africa a few years ago.Many of their roads are similar to the worse roads we have here,thousands of K's of corrugations,no bridges in many areas,deep water creek crossings,and on it goes.

[one_iota]

prelude, you make an excellent point... at least in terms of vehicular access to adventurous places.

Australia is somewhat exceptional, and this is a problem for Australians - clearly it's more commercially attractive for manufacturers to please the global masses, rather than to cater for extremes.

One of my justifications for selecting the Defender over the Grenadier as good as it might be is that now and for the foreseeable future 80% of my driving will be on sealed roads to get to 15% of made unsealed roads to drive on 5% of interesting and technical 4wd tracks. If the proportions were different the Grenadier might have been preferred. My current Defender is no longer suited.

Horses for courses!

[Samblers]

I think that's good justification - I wouldn't do anything like as much off-road I don't think, though just reach a different decision.

The New Def is very capable off-road, but you wouldn't see it on a farm, or in use by a utility company, or the emergency services, or to carry industrial goods around the place... so it's a defender in name-only. Most users will do none of those things of course, but they may admire the workmanlike sentiment.

Worked for the old defender, hope it works for Ineos.

[cripesamighty]

I'm kind of the same opinion, but then again, my name isn't Harry Metcalfe...


Defender 90 Hard Top real world review. Is the cheapest Defender the best one on sale today? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUzA4Wcvumc)


New Land Rover Defender 90 Hardtop 12 month review. Is it a true farmer's car? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDzi4hVkrrU)

[one_iota]

... so it's a defender in name-only.

I guess if Land Rover had given it another name then the conversation here would be slightly different....the "whatchamacallit" wouldn't be mentioned. However, we would still be criticising Land Rover for killing the Defender.

Ineos will hopefully fill that void for the foresters, miners, farmers, Time Team fans and the tiny minority of Australian off-roaders. The reality is that the Defender was an anachronism.

I look forward to Harry's review of the Grenadier!

[Samblers]

Agreed, well said.

Modernity didn't kill the core idea of the Defender though - LR, through neglect, let it die.

[rar110]

It is a shame JLR didnt utilise their existing engineering know how/name to make a commercial permanent 4WD that was better than a 70 series, and had greater potential than a Grenadier which had to be designed from scratch. The Grenadier designers have done well to get it to production.

[spudfan]

I think the engineering aspect of the vehicle slipped in the pecking order. I think that the "image" of JLR and where they saw the brand got precedence over the engineering department. The accountancy department got precedence over the engineering department. The corporate snacks department got precedence over the engineering department.
They had a good vehicle as it was but imagine if they had upped the quality of some of the components how much better it could have been. Fair enough the price would have increased but not to the extent of the "New Defender". Better quality components and better quality control would lead to less warranty claims.Seems they preferred to take the blinkered view.

[JDNSW]

I wonder if there is a parallel to Boeing? In 1997 Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas merged, and there was immediately a clash of cultures - Boeing was run by engineers, McDonnell-Douglas by bean counters. Although it was nominally a takeover by Boeing, the bean counters won, and the company headquarters moved from Seattle, where the aeroplanes were made, to Chicago, where there were plenty of M.B.A.s.

Over the next couple of decades, they gradually weeded the engineers out of management, replacing them with M.B.A.s, meaning that the former career path all the way to the top that enabled Boeing to attract the and keep the best engineers no longer existed. With the shortage of good engineers that this led to, more and more key work was outsourced.

The culmination of this was a decision to not replace the by now elderly but best selling 737, but rather to keep upgrading it to compete with the Airbus offerings, which were new designs. The end result was, of course, the 737MAX, making headlines around the world in 2018 and 2019 with disasters directly linked to poor engineering, and seeing Boeing paying out billions in criminal penalties, with enormous financial and reputational loss. And today the news that they are being fined again, this time for lying about it to investors.

[Deefa]

I think the engineering aspect of the vehicle slipped in the pecking order. I think that the "image" of JLR and where they saw the brand got precedence over the engineering department. The accountancy department got precedence over the engineering department. The corporate snacks department got precedence over the engineering department.
They had a good vehicle as it was but imagine if they had upped the quality of some of the components how much better it could have been. Fair enough the price would have increased but not to the extent of the "New Defender". Better quality components and better quality control would lead to less warranty claims.Seems they preferred to take the blinkered view.

Agreed. The engineering is exceptionally poor on more modern Land Rovers. I have done a lot of work on my wife's Rangie Sport. Now I know its a 10 year old vehicle so not that modern. For example we all know they have no dipstick but the failures of the oil level sensor is just stupid engineering. The sensor is in the sump but not removable from the outside like the BMW vehicles are. The electrical plug used to come off on the earlier vehicles as it wasn't secured enough, (later ones have a better retaining clip apparently) Also the sensor will just fail randomly and to remove the sensor the front diff has to be taken out to get to the the sump. Who comes up with this stuff? No wonder its hard to get mechanics that want to work on these cars. Now lets not talk about cranks snapping and plastic inlets cracking as well as oil leaks. Yes all modern cars are complex but Land Rover has been topping the list of most unreliable cars constantly for the last few years.

The modern Land Rovers are great to drive but there is always a thought, Whats going to go wrong next and how much is this going to cost.

The new Defenders are bought largely by people who would never have considered an old Defender. (obviously there are exceptions) In addition a large percentage are to people who have never owned a Land Rover product. People who have the money to buy a new Defender will probably not own it more than 5 years or so anyway.

[Samblers]

It is a shame JLR didnt utilise their existing engineering know how/name to make a commercial permanent 4WD that was better than a 70 series, and had greater potential than a Grenadier which had to be designed from scratch. The Grenadier designers have done well to get it to production.

Totally. The source of much of my disgruntlement with LR.

Why they let their heritage, values and identity slip away is beyond me. How about splitting the range into versions for passenger vs commercial use? The financial viability for the commercial version might not have been strong, but they would’ve made an awesome car, probably justifiable as a ‘hero’ product.

And it’s principle benefit would’ve been in allowing them to continue - credibly - to stake claims connecting them to the past, exploring, working, conquering, etc. Which would’ve sold more disco’s, RR’s, …

[rar110]

I wonder if there is a parallel to Boeing? In 1997 Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas merged, and there was immediately a clash of cultures - Boeing was run by engineers, McDonnell-Douglas by bean counters. Although it was nominally a takeover by Boeing, the bean counters won, and the company headquarters moved from Seattle, where the aeroplanes were made, to Chicago, where there were plenty of M.B.A.s.

Over the next couple of decades, they gradually weeded the engineers out of management, replacing them with M.B.A.s, meaning that the former career path all the way to the top that enabled Boeing to attract the and keep the best engineers no longer existed. With the shortage of good engineers that this led to, more and more key work was outsourced.

The culmination of this was a decision to not replace the by now elderly but best selling 737, but rather to keep upgrading it to compete with the Airbus offerings, which were new designs. The end result was, of course, the 737MAX, making headlines around the world in 2018 and 2019 with disasters directly linked to poor engineering, and seeing Boeing paying out billions in criminal penalties, with enormous financial and reputational loss. And today the news that they are being fined again, this time for lying about it to investors.

The D1 is probably one example of engineers and bean counters working together to produce a good result. I can’t think of another.

[rar110]

Agreed. The engineering is exceptionally poor on more modern Land Rovers. I have done a lot of work on my wife's Rangie Sport. Now I know its a 10 year old vehicle so not that modern. For example we all know they have no dipstick but the failures of the oil level sensor is just stupid engineering. The sensor is in the sump but not removable from the outside like the BMW vehicles are. The electrical plug used to come off on the earlier vehicles as it wasn't secured enough, (later ones have a better retaining clip apparently) Also the sensor will just fail randomly and to remove the sensor the front diff has to be taken out to get to the the sump. Who comes up with this stuff? No wonder its hard to get mechanics that want to work on these cars. Now lets not talk about cranks snapping and plastic inlets cracking as well as oil leaks. Yes all modern cars are complex but Land Rover has been topping the list of most unreliable cars constantly for the last few years.

The modern Land Rovers are great to drive but there is always a thought, Whats going to go wrong next and how much is this going to cost.

The new Defenders are bought largely by people who would never have considered an old Defender. (obviously there are exceptions) In addition a large percentage are to people who have never owned a Land Rover product. People who have the money to buy a new Defender will probably not own it more than 5 years or so anyway.

JLR could have easily taken some of the engineering from a L319/320/322 and fitted it to a re-engineered ladder or IBF setup, even with IFS/beam rear, 6HP/Magna Steyr, terrain response etc. Maybe with a M57 or Ford territory 2.7 tdv6. Anyway didnt happen.

[one_iota]

The D1 is probably one example of engineers and bean counters working together to produce a good result. I can’t think of another.

Well Land Rover also involved the marketing department when it developed the Range Rover ....the rest is history. Look at the current line up!

The D1 was a working man's Rangie being built on its platform.

Just maybe the new Defender is a descendant?

Any way back to the Grenadier.....

[simonmelb]

I am really hoping the Grenadier is a success, including its claim of open source / DIY repair ability. Whether this is a realistic claim or just marketing fluff, too early to tell.

But it’s the one significant thing I like about my D2 - most common points of failure can be repaired in the field by the owner.

…. typing this at the moment, 1900km from home on Fraser Island touch wood!!

[spudfan]

I think a time came when management came to the conclusion that a utility/commercial vehicle or variant there of, was bad for the image of the vehicles they were selling. I don't agree with this way of looking at things. An example. There has been a big wind and it's raining heavily and power cables are down and people have no electricity. Suddenly you see a Land Rover utility coming through the wind and rain laden with ladders, cables and what not and it heads into the field to the fallen power line or pole. That type of advertising cannot be bought. It puts it into your mind that when the going gets tough this is the type of vehicle you need.
Well it would make an impression on my little mind anyway.

[Samblers]

100%. These are genuine hero applications, marketing gold, and, to my mind, I’d think any maker of 4wd utility vehicles would want very much to serve them.

And these are the sorts of vehicles that tend to have broader appeal to outdoor types, long-range travellers, rural dwellers, tradies, etc etc… roles more and more being addressed by the cheap dual-can Ute.

Noticed this in the UK recently also. Never before have I seen a Ranger, Hilux or Triton there - UK conditions don’t suit storing payload out in the open, or in poorly-sealed trays, but they’re there now.

Because of LR, maybe.

[scarry]

There has been a big wind and it's raining heavily and power cables are down and people have no electricity. Suddenly you see a Land Rover utility coming through the wind and rain laden with ladders, cables and what not and it heads into the field to the fallen power line or pole. That type of advertising cannot be bought. It puts it into your mind that when the going gets tough this is the type of vehicle you need.
Well it would make an impression on my little mind anyway.

Land Rover started to lose that market in the mid to late ‘70’s,in Aus,and from then on it’s just history.
By the ‘90’s,that market was almost completely Jap vehicles,and that has continued on.

The last Defender,as we all know,was built out of parts found in the Ford and LR parts bin.
One doesn’t have to look far on here,and also look at posts from people that work on them all the time,such as JC or Dazza,to know the quality control and engineering was extremely poor.
A real shame as the Puma was the last of an era.

LR didn’t help its reputation or its customers with the model run one iota.They couldn’t care less,I bet they couldn’t wait for them all to be out of warranty.If I remember correctly one couldn’t get an extended warranty on the model run.I wonder why?
My son had one for ten years,so I saw first hand what they were like.

LR decided to focus on around town luxury vehicles,that was their choice,no amount of complaining will help,that’s done,it’s history,we all have to move on.
The off road vehicle market,which they pioneered was slowly disappearing,although the commercial vehicle off road market,utes,etc,was booming in some countries.But there was probably more money to be made in luxury vehicles,so maybe it was a good move.Time will tell.

Who knows what will happen with the Grenadia,it’s very tough in the real world for a new small company to design and build vehicles.

[JDNSW]

Interesting to look at history.

The Rover company was started to make bicycles, and was extremely successful. Early in the twentieth century the also started to make cars. While their cars were reasonably successful, and well designed, they made the mistake of trying to take on the mass market - competing primarily with Morris, Austin, and Ford, and to a lesser extent Rootes. Rover was, by the late twenties, in severe financial trouble, and the company was effectively taken over by their bank. Taking advantage of an excess of senior personnel at Rootes as a result of Rootes' combining a number of companies, Rover hired the Wilks brothers as General Manager and chief engineer from Hillman.

They redirected the efforts of the company from mass market to the lower end of the luxury market, turning the company around by the early 1930s.

WW2 was spent mainly building aeroplane parts and developing gas turbines, although near the end of the war Rover swapped this for Rolls Royces' tank engine business. Immediately after the war, Rover planned on continuing in their existing market segment, but soon received a reality check - "export or don't build cars" from the new government. Forced by this into designing and styarting manufacture of a utility vehicle as their existing line of cars was not sought in the export market, this was always planned as a stopgap measure. But within a few months, demand exceeded their manufacturing capability, and continued to do so for most of the next fifty years. With the profits from them funding a series of not particularly profitable or successful semi-luxury cars.

Pining for their original market, Rover effectively created a new segment in 1970 with the Rangerover - but also made the mistake of increasing capital by merging with Leyland.

for the next twenty years or so, Landrovers and Rangerovers were the only profitable products of the Leyland conglomerate, with any improvements hamstrung by the need for profits to prop up Leyland. As the ties loosened with the collapse of most of Leyland, Rover (now changing to Landrover) again sought the market that had saved the company in 1930, Rangerover having moved up market, by introducing the Discovery, which was successful in "saving the company" for another twenty years. But now after being shifted from Leyland to BMW to Ford to Tata, it effectively lost the utility market that they arguably never wanted, despite dominating it successfully and profitably for over forty years (a bit less in Australia).

[VladTepes]

I recently found out the price of a Grenadier. Ouch!

[chuck]

I wish they would improve their communication around delivery, production & when you will be able to drive a demo car.

Don't want to know about motor bike rallies, bike races etc.

Just want to know if they have started building production versions yet.

Dealers don't seem to be set up yet etc etc.

[Samblers]

I recently found out the price of a Grenadier. Ouch!

Have you seen the asking prices for old Defenders? Or new ones for that matter?

The Grenadier pricing is looking very favourable.

[ozscott]

It does look favourable. There is zero prospect of me purchasing a puma Defender for some of the asking prices when for little more the Grenadier is on offer. Having said that they are all too dear in my view. I just cannot see the value as all car makers have increased prices so significantly over the last 2 years.

Cheers

[ozscott]

There must be a problem with Carales. There are second hand 'new' Defenders on there advertised up to just under $300,000. ... that is very special [emoji1787]. But even those without 'special ' adds the costs of those show ponies makes the Grenadier even top shelf and optioned up look like very good value. Cheers

[ramblingboy42]

I must agree with you Ozscott.

I too have been looking at the carsales lists and am nearly stunned out of considering purchasing a Land Rover.

Considering my Ranger really does the same job as a 130 with the same mechanicals and costs me nothing to keep I'll probably just keep it.It'll just die gracefully.

The current asking price for 2nd hand defenders , both old and new models , clearly justifies purchasing a Grenadier.