Ineos Grenadier, do you reckon it'll take off?

[Arapiles]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230430/fc94e3bee82d6e865bd5a6772054c56d.jpg

First one I have seen on the road


A diesel first registered on 20/04/2023 apparently:

https://www.carcheck.co.uk/ineos/NA23WWE

[spudfan]

I do like it but looking at that photo it shows how limited rear vision is with dirty rear windows. Due to the off set of the wiper owing to the split rear door a lot of vision is blocked out on the passenger side. This is caused by the split door frame on the two door sections and the dirty window behind the ladder. On the old Defender the one piece rear door had a central wiper which, I think would give a better view. It is the price you pay for the split rear door which many seem to like.It would not put me off owning one.
I had work vans with the same system of split rear doors so I have experience of this.

[scarry]

I do like it but looking at that photo it shows how limited rear vision is with dirty rear windows. Due to the off set of the wiper owing to the split rear door a lot of vision is blocked out on the passenger side. This is caused by the split door frame on the two door sections and the dirty window behind the ladder. On the old Defender the one piece rear door had a central wiper which, I think would give a better view. It is the price you pay for the split rear door which many seem to like.It would not put me off owning one.
I had work vans with the same system of split rear doors so I have experience of this.

The spare blocks a heap of rear view as well,looks like it could be lowered an inch or two,but not to much as some may want to put bigger wheels on.

Split tailgate set up like D3/4 I find the best and most handy for touring,camping etc.

[spudfan]

At this stage I find getting a Defender 16 inch wheel shod with 235/85/16 tyres off the back door a bit of an effort. Need to get the Mrs to give me a hand to put it back on!
As for the bonnet mounted spare on the LR 88, that is now inside bracketed to the bulkhead. Like I said, I do like the Grenadier. I'd just need to remember to have the Mrs with me at all times in case I needed to remove the spare wheel.
I suppose it would not be the best of chat up lines if I was considering having an affair or eloping with someone..."By the way how are you are removing/refitting a door mounted 16 inch wheel?"

[simonmelb]

FYI towing 3.5 T review:

Ineos Grenadier Owners Australia (https://www.facebook.com/groups/3774825335877563/permalink/7051687768191287/'mibextid=W9rl1R)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

FYI towing 3.5 T review:

Ineos Grenadier Owners Australia (https://www.facebook.com/groups/3774825335877563/permalink/7051687768191287/'mibextid=W9rl1R)

Personally I think the answer with the Grenadier is going to be airbag suspension for the rear. It's hard to get coils to work across a big load range. That's why LR air suspension is so good until it isn't.

I'm totally fine with tweaking the inflation of some airbags manually. I've got them on my defender and they are great.

[one_iota]

Simon Jefferson of Powerfuluk does a comparitive review:

Ineos Grenadier UK Delivery Review - Back to Basics 4x4 Utility or Dated Luxury SUV ? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/EnJPaE4gmoQ)

[ramblingboy42]

Why would someone want to put larger wheels and tyres on their grenadier?

Grenadier are not in favour of this when I spoke to them recently.

their reply was how much research they put into the oem tyre sizes and related performance

no recommendations at all.

write/call/visit their showroom and see what they say

[ozscott]

I think the same would be said of all manufacturers. Having said that a small amount of increase would likely yield benefits off road but I am not a fan of going too large as it reduces torque that can be applied and economy usually.

Cheers

[spudfan]

Simon Jefferson of Powerfuluk does a comparitive review:

Ineos Grenadier UK Delivery Review - Back to Basics 4x4 Utility or Dated Luxury SUV ? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/EnJPaE4gmoQ)
He is enthusiastic. I do like the Grenadier but there are things I would not be keen on but the pluses out way the minuses. My wife used to knit jumpers like that. Wonder how long before someone edits his videos and puts music to it and calls it the Ineos dance? Like I say he is enthusiastic but exhausting to watch sometimes!
There will be niggles with the first vehicles of a new design but I wonder if Ineos have the customer base to make a Series 11 with lessons learned from everyday use by customers with the Series 1 in the short term. Still it is good to see such a vehicle enter the market.
The blue 110 hi capacity pick up in the back ground does look very nice!

[Tombie]

I think the same would be said of all manufacturers. Having said that a small amount of increase would likely yield benefits off road but I am not a fan of going too large as it reduces torque that can be applied and economy usually.

Cheers

I pondered this being guilty of it myself.

I’ve arrived at the conclusion it’s just a product of human nature.. more tyre, more lift, more power… etc etc.

Everyone says “fit a 2” lift and some bigger rubber, it’ll help you clear obstacles”

But will it? Sure… up until the next size obstacle comes along!

[Tins]

I pondered this being guilty of it myself.

I’ve arrived at the conclusion it’s just a product of human nature.. more tyre, more lift, more power… etc etc.

Everyone says “fit a 2” lift and some bigger rubber, it’ll help you clear obstacles”

But will it? Sure… up until the next size obstacle comes along!

Sure. All the 37" Patrols make ruts that render the tracks impassable to anyone else. Solution? 38" obviously. there are Jeeps in the US on 42"s ffs.

People also forget that it's an entire package, When I first got my Series it had big tyres on it. Boy did it look tough. But, it was hopeless. The poor engine struggled to turn the things, but worse, and this is the worst bit, it simply wouldn't stop.

I had 38" Michelin XML on the OKA. Same thing. Needed low range to get up my driveway, and was bloody dangerous under brakes. Looked cool though. It's back on 35's now. You wouldn't think that a 1.5" change in radius would make that much difference, but it does. Archimedes knew his stuff.

Now, I know an OKA or a LR Series 3 is not a modern 4WD, but the principles apply. Those guys spend $Billions on R&D. It's also why increases in tyre size by more than a certain % without engineering is illegal.

[ozscott]

Yep I find 31 to 32 inch is a great size for the vehicles I have had, although some tracks do get very difficult where vehicles with bugger tyres regularly go causing very deep ruts. Cheers

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That pretty well sums up my thoughts.

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/goodbye-land-rover/

[one_iota]

That pretty well sums up my thoughts.

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/goodbye-land-rover/

That was a good read. Stimulates lots of thoughts

Purcell could get a job playing the violin.

My 2008 Defender has many a part labelled FOMOCO. My 2023 Defender parts are labelled Jaguar Land Rover

Vehicles don't have souls but their owners do. There are plenty of passionate new Defender owners out there who recognize and appreciate what Jaguar Land Rover has produced. Many have never owned a Land Rover before.

The Grenadier will have to gather a similar following.

The guy doing some fencing at our place just bought a RAM with leather seats and retractable side steps. It tows his twin axle trailer with ease. Toyota was dismissed, Land Rover wasn't even on the radar....what's a Grenadier?

[scarry]

The guy doing some fencing at our place just bought a RAM with leather seats and retractable side steps. It tows his twin axle trailer with ease. Toyota was dismissed, Land Rover wasn't even on the radar....what's a Grenadier?

The fencer doing a huge job across the road pulls his large dual axle trailer with a TD5 130.He has had it from new.
He said there is nothing else around that will pull the weight all day, every day,and is legal,except the bigger US utes but he doesnt like them.I didnt mention Grenadier,nor did he.

I often see a Perentie around here pulling a huge trailer with a large digger on it,there is actually a pic of it in one of my posts somewhere on here.

[spudfan]

I would have to tax a Grenadier as a private vehicle, even if I bought the commercial variant. The yearly road tax would be €2,400 or 3,903.12AUD. The two seat would start at €71,995 or .117,063 AUD. We would need the middle row for our daughter so the price goes up. The five seat starts at €99,995 or 162,601 AUD. Those prices are for the base models.I think I can safely say I will not be in the market for one, but like I said I do like them.It is coming in cheaper than the new Defender but the annual road tax is the same
My 110 200tdi comes at a yearly road tax of €56 or 91.07 AUD. as it is now classed as vintage.

[loanrangie]

Limited to selling 6k a year in the UK, going to a slow seller then ?

[3toes]

Australia had an allocation of 1,000 vehicles. So Uk 6,000 plus Australia 1,000 totals 7k vehicles. With total production from factory when fully up to speed of 25k vehicles where are the other 18k vehicles going to?

[spudfan]

Are the seat bases removable? That was a great idea from Land Rover.

[DiscoDB]

Australia had an allocation of 1,000 vehicles. So Uk 6,000 plus Australia 1,000 totals 7k vehicles. With total production from factory when fully up to speed of 25k vehicles where are the other 18k vehicles going to?

Europe, US, South Africa, and the Rest of the World (will be sold in 50+ countries).

[3toes]

Defender sales peaked at 39k in 1997 which was an exceptional year. They averaged closer to 20k per annum over the life of the Defender production run. Last 10 years only reached 20k once. With a low of 12k in 2008 and a peak of 21k in 2015. So with a factory set up to do 25k per year are looking for an increase in sales not just replacing. Low volume seems baked into the business plan which may be to their advantage

For comparison Toyota do about 400k per annum for Landcruiser and Lexus versions although they do not breakout the 70 series sales volumes from this total. Toyota has said that Australia takes over 20% of the production for 70 series. So we can guesstimate total 70 series production based on the 10k sold in Australia as 50k per annum. So the 25k production for the Grenadier is a good start

Toyota have in the past made comment that 70 series sales had been steadily falling for 20 years. This making investment in a replacement difficult to justify. If the Grenadier takes too many sales from the Toyota might result in its demise

They are of course not competing with the full 70 series model range as of yet making a comparison of respective market share even more difficult. Grenadier do not yet have the ‘commercial’ ute models in their range

Will be interesting to see how this plays out

[Tins]

Interesting indeed. Comparisons of sales projections of a fledgling car startup with those of an established player aren't worth much. Ineos would look pretty silly making 100,000 of the things without testing the market first.

Compare them to another "recent" startup; Tesla. Now, I know they stand at polar opposites of the market, but it was a big risk, building a car with very little expertise. Building a modern car from scratch is no easy thing. Tesla had a few early stabs at it, with the Roadster etc. So, there was awareness, but the Model S was projected to sell 40.000 units in the first year, a target it didn't meet.

Ineos is in both a better and worse position than Tesla was. Tesla was creating a new market, really. Bloody hard. Many have tried. However, the timing was superb, and Tesla was the lucky recipient of large subsidies, for reasons I can't go into here. Ineos won't get any subsidies, and in fact will face increasing opposition from various bureaucracies. OTOH, it has a very convenient hole to plug in the market.

Personally, I think Ineos has judged its entry numbers perfectly. Time will tell. But, they have certainly created a buzz.

[scarry]

Toyota have in the past made comment that 70 series sales had been steadily falling for 20 years. This making investment in a replacement difficult to justify. If the Grenadier takes too many sales from the Toyota might result in its demise

They are of course not competing with the full 70 series model range as of yet making a comparison of respective market share even more difficult. Grenadier do not yet have the ‘commercial’ ute models in their range



Grenadier won't even make a dent in 70 series sales.
Africa is a good example,they still buy the 70 with the well documented, ultra reliable, 6 cylinder diesel,as do many other countries.Ours have been the V8 for the last 15 or so years due to emission regs.
Toyota have the advantage of being able to taylor vehicles to suit different markets,something a small player would find difficult,probably impossible.
Anything full of electronics such as Puma Defender,or Grenadier won't be considered.
Sure things may change with new emissions rules,etc,but that is not going to happen in the near future.
The 70 also has the reputation, that Grenadier will take decades to gain,if they ever do.
Service agents are another issue,in Australia,as an example,Tojo have almost 300.

Anyway,good luck to them,but they certainly have some challenges ahead.
And to challenge something like the 70,they need utes on the market ASAP,as they are the biggest sellers in the 70 range by a country mile.

[grey_ghost]

I just got home after a 14,000km East-West trip in my Perentie. Some interesting things that I witnessed along the way…

* Toyota 70 series absolutely everywhere in the Outback.
* 70 series blew a diff on the Strezleki Track. The track was very wet and muddy at the time. I needed 3 attempts in my FFR on AT tyres.
* Speaking to LC200 owner near the Surveyor’s General corner.. 30,000km on the clock. Transfer case gone. Cruise control stopped working. Wipers sometimes work, sometimes don’t.. “It’s been at the dealer for a month now, waiting on parts”
* Speaking to a 79 owner (same town) - my 79 has been off the road for 6 weeks now, at the dealer, waiting for parts.
* Both guys said “the roads are pretty rough out here”
* A friend travelling with me (Ranger) had an ECU warning light… We took the car to 2 dealers and rang 2 more.. All said the same thing “sorry workshop is busy - can’t look at it for 4 weeks. Come back later.”
* The Ranger only had 10,000km on it - still under warranty.
* Spoke to a station hand at the Carnegie station. They have 79’s and Jeeps. He said “the jeeps are absolutely crap and the Toyota’s aren’t much better - but at least we can get parts for the Toyota, eventually”

My point is - the dealer network (Toyota and Ford) isn’t what it used to be..

Toyota are BRILLIANT at their brand marketing.

The FFR did the trip without issue.. And used less fuel than the diesel Ranger…

[ozscott]

I just got home after a 14,000km East-West trip in my Perentie. Some interesting things that I witnessed along the way…

* Toyota 70 series absolutely everywhere in the Outback.
* 70 series blew a diff on the Strezleki Track. The track was very wet and muddy at the time. I needed 3 attempts in my FFR on AT tyres.
* Speaking to LC200 owner near the Surveyor’s General corner.. 30,000km on the clock. Transfer case gone. Cruise control stopped working. Wipers sometimes work, sometimes don’t.. “It’s been at the dealer for a month now, waiting on parts”
* Speaking to a 79 owner (same town) - my 79 has been off the road for 6 weeks now, at the dealer, waiting for parts.
* Both guys said “the roads are pretty rough out here”
* A friend travelling with me (Ranger) had an ECU warning light… We took the car to 2 dealers and rang 2 more.. All said the same thing “sorry workshop is busy - can’t look at it for 4 weeks. Come back later.”
* The Ranger only had 10,000km on it - still under warranty.
* Spoke to a station hand at the Carnegie station. They have 79’s and Jeeps. He said “the jeeps are absolutely crap and the Toyota’s aren’t much better - but at least we can get parts for the Toyota, eventually”

My point is - the dealer network (Toyota and Ford) isn’t what it used to be..

Toyota are BRILLIANT at their brand marketing.

The FFR did the trip without issue.. And used less fuel than the diesel Ranger…Good trip by the sounds of it. However it doesn't surprise me that a Petente would have less issues than a lot or modern cars packed full of electronics. Not comparing apples with apples though. Cheers

[grey_ghost]

I was just trying to say - people swear by Toyota, but from what I witnessed - they aren’t un breakable, and parts aren’t that easy to get.

But people still buy them because they fall for the Toyota advertising…

How Ineos will beat that mindset, I am not sure.

[Tins]

Toyota are BRILLIANT at their brand marketing.



So are MacDonalds.

[discomatt69]

I was just trying to say - people swear by Toyota, but from what I witnessed - they aren’t un breakable, and parts aren’t that easy to get.

But people still buy them because they fall for the Toyota advertising…

How Ineos will beat that mindset, I am not sure.

Our last big trip, 3 months towing the van, went with friends, exactly same van, our 2013 D4, their 2013 200, we did all the off road and 4wding adventures, thats not their thing so not much 4wding.
One beach run and a little sandy track driving the 200 had a traction control fault, all electronics gone but no limp mode and car still driveable, Toyota dealer had it for 2 days and gave it back, sorry cant fix it, wiring fault we don't have time. 3 days later broken wire fixxed by auto elec
Remembering exactly same van, they averaged 18l/100 we averaged 14l/100 over the whole 16,000km
They spent 1 week with a faulty car, we had zero faults yet I did all the hardcore 4wding I could find, they did none
I just don't buy into the whole Toyota crap, the only advantage is all the dealer availability and willingness of mechanics to work on them whille they refuse to look at a LR which admittedly is a huge advantage when your luck runs out

[scarry]

But people still buy them because they fall for the Toyota advertising…



West of the range in Qld,they are by far the most popular vehicle brand,have been for many decades.

I don't think it has anything to do with marketing.

There are many other reasons they are so popular.

[Tins]

I don't think it has anything to do with marketing.


Really? I think it has everything to do with it. Marketing isn't just TV ads. Marketing is having sales people driving out to farms at 06:00. Marketing is aggressive pricing. Marketing is spending big on a dealer network. Marketing is fixed price servicing. Marketing is the promise, not always honoured, of a brilliant warranty. Marketing is guaranteed buyback.

I'm not saying all of those are bad things, because clearly they are not. But Only Toyota was capitalised enough to offer them decades ago. LR was broke. So was Nissan. In so many ways the Patrol is a better car than the LC, and if Nissan had been in the financial position of Toyota back then, well, who knows?

Imo, the LC is the greatest loss leader product of the last century. Which is also marketing. As Tom said, Toyota are brilliant at it. But the South Koreans are catching on fast.

[scarry]

Really? I think it has everything to do with it. Marketing isn't just TV ads. Marketing is having sales people driving out to farms at 06:00. Marketing is aggressive pricing. Marketing is spending big on a dealer network. Marketing is fixed price servicing. Marketing is the promise, not always honoured, of a brilliant warranty. Marketing is guaranteed buyback.

I'm not saying all of those are bad things, because clearly they are not. But Only Toyota was capitalised enough to offer them decades ago. LR was broke. So was Nissan. In so many ways the Patrol is a better car than the LC, and if Nissan had been in the financial position of Toyota back then, well, who knows?

Imo, the LC is the greatest loss leader product of the last century. Which is also marketing. As Tom said, Toyota are brilliant at it. But the South Koreans are catching on fast.

You can still do all the "marketing" you like and have a product that does not sell well,if it is not the product(whatever it is)that people want.

Or some may buy the product but then find out it is not good at this or that,and they wont buy it again,and the word will get around.

It is the Chinese that are catching on the fastest.

Thinking more about this "Marketing"[bigsmile1]

Every vehicle we have bought new, other brands,and numerous work vehicles which are this brand,not one of those "marketing" suggestions came into the equation.
Not one
Nice to have a dealer close for sure,but not essential.I used to do a 130KM round trip to drop the D4 off for repairs and servicing.Nice to have the 5yr warranty and the previous 3 yr,but every manufacturer had this anyway.Ford is actually one step ahead offering a free loan car while the vehicle is in for servicing or repairs,which is helpfull.

[Deefa]

Well the dealer rang me early May and said our grenadier has been made and is on the way. Only six being dispatched to the local dealer here on the Sunshine Coast out of about 30 that they have orders for. Ours is in the first six. The dealer wont even get their demo car as they are prioritizing customers first. Must be a lottery as a friend in the SCLROC ordered his before me and wont get his for a while yet. They are saying it should be here in June. But apparently there is a few minor bits missing that they will dealer fit here. The suppliers didnt have them ready before they shipped the vehicle. I have no idea what they are, but it appears they will airfreight those bits out to Australia hoping they get here around the same time as the car. Also there is a lot of delays at the ports with biosecurity concerns of cars that have been stored overseas for a while getting bugs living in them.

So we shall see.

[3toes]

Is a game that all the manufacturers are playing at the moment. Delivery depends on what you ordered and what parts are available to build a vehicle from

[discomatt69]

You can still do all the "marketing" you like and have a product that does not sell well,if it is not the product(whatever it is)that people want.

Or some may buy the product but then find out it is not good at this or that,and they wont buy it again,and the word will get around.

It is the Chinese that are catching on the fastest.

Thinking more about this "Marketing"[bigsmile1]

Every vehicle we have bought new, other brands,and numerous work vehicles which are this brand,not one of those "marketing" suggestions came into the equation.
Not one
Nice to have a dealer close for sure,but not essential.I used to do a 130KM round trip to drop the D4 off for repairs and servicing.Nice to have the 5yr warranty and the previous 3 yr,but every manufacturer had this anyway.Ford is actually one step ahead offering a free loan car while the vehicle is in for servicing or repairs,which is helpfull.

Ford can no longer always provide a courtesy car, to many issues, to many customers dropping cars back for faults and not enough loan cars

[discomatt69]

Well the dealer rang me early May and said our grenadier has been made and is on the way. Only six being dispatched to the local dealer here on the Sunshine Coast out of about 30 that they have orders for. Ours is in the first six. The dealer wont even get their demo car as they are prioritizing customers first. Must be a lottery as a friend in the SCLROC ordered his before me and wont get his for a while yet. They are saying it should be here in June. But apparently there is a few minor bits missing that they will dealer fit here. The suppliers didnt have them ready before they shipped the vehicle. I have no idea what they are, but it appears they will airfreight those bits out to Australia hoping they get here around the same time as the car. Also there is a lot of delays at the ports with biosecurity concerns of cars that have been stored overseas for a while getting bugs living in them.

So we shall see.

Have you joined the Grenadier forum? If not I suggest you do, good luck and let us know how it goes and initial impressions

[scarry]

Ford can no longer always provide a courtesy car, to many issues, to many customers dropping cars back for faults and not enough loan cars

Haven’t had that problem yet,but yes,we are getting tired of the issues.One is going in later this week,again.[bighmmm]
A real nuisance when we need the vehicles on the road all day everyday.
Loan car is helpfull,but there is only so much gear we can fit in a tiny road car.

[Homestar]

When I bought 2 new Dual cabs for work, the only thing the Boss said was "No Fords, No Navaras - not making those mistakes again' [biggrin]

[scarry]

When I bought 2 new Dual cabs for work, the only thing the Boss said was "No Fords, No Navaras - not making those mistakes again' [biggrin]

Yes we will be doing the same,back to the ultra reliable brand we had before.That is if we can get what we want,and there is no long wait.
The advantage of the Ranger is it has 15K Km services,instead of 10K,so when doing heaps of k's,its more convenient,and free loan car as said.
I recon they are slightly more comfortable as well.

Vans,yes wouldn't go near a Transit,i know some that have.....

Anyway,see how we go and what happens next time.

Someone sent me a link to the New Ranger forum,all sorts of issues and problems,but they are the places the complainers love to complain,so in the whole scheme of things,who knows what is really going on.

[Homestar]

Yes, the Ranger was the most comfortable of them all when I test drove a lot.

Don’t get me started on Transit Vans - They drive better than a Hiace but can’t come close to them regarding reliability. Having driven a couple of each model the Transit spent a lot more time at the dealer getting repairs and I actually can’t think of a single time my Hiace’s ever went to Yota for repair or at all as we used to service them ourselves. Some had 300KKM on them as still ran fine.

[rgty_kmj]

First Ineos Grenadier in the Southern Hemisphere handed over in Auckland | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/132105735/first-ineos-grenadier-in-the-southern-hemisphere-handed-over-in-auckland)

[one_iota]

Harry Metcalf has a review on his channel, Given the context in which he test drives vehicles it is a level-headed review:

Ineos Grenadier real-world review. 7 days, on & off road, plus towing. Is it a new Defender rival? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/8Cr05r2CYsk)

His upcoming Harry's Farm channel review will perhaps be more appropriate and relevant.

I look forward to seeing that!

(Edit here is the Farm review: Ineos Grenadier Trialmaster review. How does it work as a farm car? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/NvF-R7PXNW8))

[simonmelb]

Just watched both reviews, worth a look.

For our needs his conclusion as a multi purpose family touring / holiday / everything car ( which our D2 still does so well), it misses the mark. So may be more niche than I thought.

[Tombie]

The BMW engine in the Grenadier specifies 5W30 oil.
Wonder how that’ll go down with some around here.

[Homestar]

The BMW engine in the Grenadier specifies 5W30 oil.
Wonder how that’ll go down with some around here.

Behave… 🤣

[rick130]

The BMW engine in the Grenadier specifies 5W30 oil.
Wonder how that’ll go down with some around here.

A couple of years back I was asked if I wanted to write an article addressing the claims of a prominent diesel workshop suggesting they were having numerous issues with modern ute diesels as the engine oil was too light.
The spec was something like 0 or 5W-30 and they claimed they needed to run a 10 or 15W-40 to 'fix' the issues.
I doubt it'd have anything to do with their tunes? [bigwhistle]
I don't think I wrote the article.


Behave… 🤣

:lol2::lol2:

[prelude]

BMW says you should put 10W60 in some of their M engines :P Who knows what the grenadier is supposed to take [bigwhistle]

In any case, 5w30 is also VERBOTEN by our friendly german youtube engineer with his D3/D4: No more 5W-30 ever again - Land Rover Discovery 4 - Transfer Case and Diff oil change - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4NeJrbor4s&pp=ygUQNXczMCBuZXZlciBhZ2Fpbg%3D%3D)

Oil is always an interesting discussion! I would reckon due to emissions they would have gone for the thinnest possible they think they can get away with.

Speaking of which, I finally saw a price listed including taxes for the grenadier in my country. A while back I posted why I would not get one and one of them was price due to emissions and tax. Guess what.. the base 2 seat van would cost me a whopping 170K euro's , that's 280K AUD. I hear some "complaints" on here some times about that oz is behind in terms of "the environment", I'd say; be glad.

Cheers,
-P

[RANDLOVER]

The BMW engine in the Grenadier specifies 5W30 oil.
Wonder how that’ll go down with some around here.

Also known as 5W30 Dumbass and now you can visit the workshop where it was invented WORKSHOPS — Chateau Dumas (https://chateaudumas.net/workshops-1) [bigrolf]

[Tombie]

BMW says you should put 10W60 in some of their M engines :P Who knows what the grenadier is supposed to take [bigwhistle]

In any case, 5w30 is also VERBOTEN by our friendly german youtube engineer with his D3/D4: No more 5W-30 ever again - Land Rover Discovery 4 - Transfer Case and Diff oil change - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4NeJrbor4s&pp=ygUQNXczMCBuZXZlciBhZ2Fpbg%3D%3D)

Oil is always an interesting discussion! I would reckon due to emissions they would have gone for the thinnest possible they think they can get away with.

Speaking of which, I finally saw a price listed including taxes for the grenadier in my country. A while back I posted why I would not get one and one of them was price due to emissions and tax. Guess what.. the base 2 seat van would cost me a whopping 170K euro's , that's 280K AUD. I hear some "complaints" on here some times about that oz is behind in terms of "the environment", I'd say; be glad.

Cheers,
-P

Yes. His choice to run a mid-SAPS oil in a Low SAPS engine can only end well for him and his DPF :)
Not that it’s a huge increase, an increase nonetheless.

[prelude]

Would it not be possible to find a low saps oil in a 5w40 rating? [bighmmm]

In any case, I am glad I have a 1960's engine :) Speaking of which, I run a high ZDDP content (basically racing) oil in my V8 and my cats are none the worse for wear. Ah well, back to the ineos I guess!

-P

[JDNSW]

My understanding is that the use of very thin oils is entirely to enable the engine to reach the fuel economy (and to a lesser extent emissions, but bear in mind CO2 emissions are directly proportional to fuel used) that the engine/vehicle did in official tests. Thicker oil increases fuel consumption.

As a result, with tightening government restrictions on carbon emissions, manufacturers specify the lightest oil they can provided it does not increase warranty claims to unacceptable levels. The individual owner may well have a slightly different perspective.

[spudfan]

This is from Tom Sheppard's-Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide. This is from my 1998 copy which features the Land Rover tdi engine. Whether this is applicable to today's engines I do not know.

[spudfan]

Had the Grenadier been around, I wonder where it would feature in this table. This also from Tom Sheppard's book.

[one_iota]

Our favorite Disco 3/4 German has a quick inspection:

The INEOS GRENADIER in Our Driveway - YouTube (https://youtu.be/JVgK_Tba508)

[cripesamighty]

Just watched that. Like Christian, I would be a little worried about the underbody wiring to be honest!

[spudfan]

Got this today
At the core of the Grenadier’s off-road performance is its tough ladder frame chassis. It’s rigid, strong and, if configured in ‘Halo Red’ or ‘Rhino Grey’, stands out.
But there’s more to our contrast chassis colours than meets the eye. They’re a statement of support for two very important causes.
Choosing ‘HALO Red’ supports our partner, The HALO Trust, who works tirelessly to clear landmines and dangerous war debris, helping families in areas of conflict rebuild their lives.
Choosing ‘Rhino Grey’ supports the work of our partner, The Rhino Orphanage, who helps to protect these endangered animals throughout South Africa
We already support the two charities with our rugged Grenadiers, essential for their operations in some of the world’s toughest environments. To ramp up our support, we’ll donate €150 every time a Grenadier is ordered with one of these contrast chassis colours.
So, whichever one you decide on, you’ll be highlighting your Grenadier’s no-nonsense chassis, and helping support life-saving work.

[spudfan]

This link was put up on Defender2.
Unveiling The First INEOS Safari Vehicle in the World, Right Here at Londolozi. - Londolozi Blog (https://blog.londolozi.com/2023/06/24/unveiling-the-first-ineos-safari-vehicle-in-the-world-right-here-at-londolozi/)

[3toes]

This will be interesting to follow

Overland Journal Announces Their Trans-Africa Journey with the Grenadier - Expedition Portal (https://expeditionportal.com/trans-africa-overland-with-grenadier/)

[Deefa]

Picked up from the dealer on Sunshine Coast. First customer delivery.

[Deefa]

186143

[Captain_Rightfoot]

186143

Looks great. How is it?

[disco gazza]

Be interested in how it goes Deefa. :thumbsup:
Plus all the little niggles that come with a brand new chariot.[bighmmm]
I'm sure all the other good folk on AULRO would like to know as well.
DG

[SPROVER]

I saw my first one on the road today. I like them. [emoji106]

[spudfan]

Got an email update on some Grenadier merchandise. One is a white tee shirt, so they must not be expecting much tinkering with the vehicle by owners[bigwhistle]
Home Page

– INEOS GRENADIER UK/INTERNATIONAL STORE (https://merchandise.ineosgrenadier.com/?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Goodwood_merch)

[PhilipA]

Plus all the little niggles that come with a brand new chariot.[bighmmm]
Er it's not a Land Rover where customers do the product development.
Proven engines and transmissions, not new fangled 4s canned after a year because of oil dilution. etc etc.
It will be interesting to see where it rates when it makes a JD Power survey, and I will bet that it comes above Land Rover which is not hard as Land Rover is usually on the bottom of the list.

Regards PhilipA

[Hoges]

Er it's not a Land Rover where customers do the product development.
Proven engines and transmissions, not new fangled 4s canned after a year because of oil dilution. etc etc.
It will be interesting to see where it rates when it makes a JD Power survey, and I will bet that it comes above Land Rover which is not hard as Land Rover is usually on the bottom of the list.

Regards PhilipA

Not surprisingly, there are a few teething problems which "we" are assured will be sorted in the next S/W update due later this month. Some have had problems with the early production transfer cases built by Tremec (one was an oil gallery drilled at slightly incorrect angle). It's been "educative" to read on The Grenadier Forum (http://www.theineosforum.com) the early experiences of UK/German/Belgian/Italian etc customers ... predominantly software glitches / spurious error messages but with no catastrophes... overwhelming endorsement from early owners, a number of whom also currently own a New Defender and/or are (very) long term experienced Defender/Discovery owners.
Expecting mine late next week! [thumbsupbig]

[spudfan]

More on the "Quartermaster" pick up.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-grenadier-quartermaster-pickup-debuts-with-bmw-inline-six-power/ar-AA1dO8l6?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=946a0cf2d1954fddb77728d834798a8b&ei=55

[NT5224]

The new Inneos Quartermaster Ute has been revealed today.

it sits on a 130 wheelbase and is 5 seater with a tub. It looks very similar to a lowered LandRover 130. As such it has a more purposeful stance than most contemporary dual cab utes.

So I wondered how it matched up to the real deal? I went looking for the payload specs, but couldn’t find them in the mass distribution publicity.

Turns out the Grennedier 130 is rated to a tub payload of 760kg, just half that of my Land Rover 130, and significantly less than a Toyota 70 series. I’m really not sure whether such a limited load will attract serious commercial, military or expedition use of the Quartermaster. Does the Quartermaster capture the spirit of the original LandRover 130 but without the performance and practicality?

What do others think?

Alan

[Hoges]

Ineos Debuts the Grenadier Quartermaster Overland Pickup - Expedition Portal (https://expeditionportal.com/ineos-debuts-the-grenadier-quartermaster-overland-pickup/)
Here's a US perspective....

[Hoges]

double post...see above

[Tins]

That payload is no better than a Commodore ute. I wonder if this Quartermaster is some sort of style option, and a "real" one will come later. It sort of flies in the face of what Radcliffe said he wanted.

[Homestar]

The new Inneos Quartermaster Ute has been revealed today.

it sits on a 130 wheelbase and is 5 seater with a tub. It looks very similar to a lowered LandRover 130. As such it has a more purposeful stance than most contemporary dual cab utes.

So I wondered how it matched up to the real deal? I went looking for the payload specs, but couldn’t find them in the mass distribution publicity.

Turns out the Grennedier 130 is rated to a tub payload of 760kg, just half that of my Land Rover 130, and significantly less than a Toyota 70 series. I’m really not sure whether such a limited load will attract serious commercial, military or expedition use of the Quartermaster. Does the Quartermaster capture the spirit of the original LandRover 130 but without the performance and practicality?

What do others think?

Alan

Yeah, that's a bit disappointing regarding capacity. I do like the look of it although I'd prefer this as an extra cab with a bigger tub on the back personally but I guess that wouldn't be a big seller.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Prices have also gone up for the station wagon by 13k. Youch.

[scarry]

Yeah, that's a bit disappointing regarding capacity. I do like the look of it although I'd prefer this as an extra cab with a bigger tub on the back personally but I guess that wouldn't be a big seller.

Looks are subjective,but to me it is not that pleasing to the eye.

Being a ladder frame chassis,in Aus,the payload could more than likely be increased,with an upgrade,but that would be expensive due to it probably being a low volume seller.

[cripesamighty]

Being ladderframed, I wonder if the Quartermaster version has the ability to ditch the tray body rear tub and replace it with a tray instead to get a bit more payload...

[spudfan]

I am sure that the Ineos Grenadier is capable of carrying more but that puts it outside the current driving licence limits.

[Deefa]

186228186229186227

Well the Grenadier has done about 700ks now. Very happy with it. There are many positives, and in comparison with an old Defender it is in a different league. There are a few negatives such as software issues that need sorting. (Inaccurate fuel gauge, A few fault warnings that disappear after a restart) Its got plenty of power for me, and sits on the road nicely. You can have a conversation with the passengers. Even the back seat passengers can be heard. Very slight transfer case noise on overrun and some correction input needed on steering at high speed on really good straight roads. Not noticeable on rougher roads which is most roads in QLD anyway. I does not bump steer at all, and rides over rough bumpy roads amazingly well. The door seals are great at keeping dust out, on my limited testing so far anyway, Paint finish is world class. Lights are really good. I am tall and find the often talked about step in the foot well a bit annoying but I am getting used to it. Its sad that the prices are so high now. I loved the concept and ordered the minute (literally) they opened the online booking. Building a vehicle with such quality parts costs. Brembo brakes, bilstein shocks, recaro seating, BMW, ZF etc, not a lot is in house made and that is expensive. I certainly would not have bought one at the prices they are now and nearly pulled out a couple of times along the way as I was stretched to pay the cost of the car for the price it was.

Is it perfect? no. Does it capture the spirit of adventure that Land Rover stood for until recently? I think it does. Now to have some of those adventures!

[scarry]

That payload is no better than a Commodore ute. I wonder if this Quartermaster is some sort of style option, and a "real" one will come later. It sort of flies in the face of what Radcliffe said he wanted.

Comments here from Robert Pepper,

"The INEOS Grenadier ute has been revealed.
The only specification that matters is the payload of 765kg which has been reported in several places. However, the Australian spec sheet shows 832 to 907kg.
That is still a bit light.
It was bad enough with the Jeep Gladiator but at least that could be a short range daytripper.
The Grenadier is meant to be a serious workhorse and long distance tourer.
Not with a sub 800kg payload for a ute it isn't. Even the 907 for the petrol is light.
Disappointed.
And it's $120k plus. For what capability are you paying that money? I can't see it. You can buy a nice new Canter with 37s for that coin or a nicely modified Ranger.
Oh and please don't go on about coils vs leaves. The Defender 130 and Unimog would like a word"

Ranger?I don't think so[bigrolf]

[Tins]

Comments here from Robert Pepper,


Oh and please don't go on about coils vs leaves. The Defender 130 and Unimog would like a word"



deleted

[Robmacca]

186228186229186227

Well the Grenadier has done about 700ks now. Very happy with it. There are many positives, and in comparison with an old Defender it is in a different league. There are a few negatives such as software issues that need sorting. (Inaccurate fuel gauge, A few fault warnings that disappear after a restart) Its got plenty of power for me, and sits on the road nicely. You can have a conversation with the passengers. Even the back seat passengers can be heard. Very slight transfer case noise on overrun and some correction input needed on steering at high speed on really good straight roads. Not noticeable on rougher roads which is most roads in QLD anyway. I does not bump steer at all, and rides over rough bumpy roads amazingly well. The door seals are great at keeping dust out, on my limited testing so far anyway, Paint finish is world class. Lights are really good. I am tall and find the often talked about step in the foot well a bit annoying but I am getting used to it. Its sad that the prices are so high now. I loved the concept and ordered the minute (literally) they opened the online booking. Building a vehicle with such quality parts costs. Brembo brakes, bilstein shocks, recaro seating, BMW, ZF etc, not a lot is in house made and that is expensive. I certainly would not have bought one at the prices they are now and nearly pulled out a couple of times along the way as I was stretched to pay the cost of the car for the price it was.

Is it perfect? no. Does it capture the spirit of adventure that Land Rover stood for until recently? I think it does. Now to have some of those adventures!

Will be good to read of your progress and how u find it. I assume u bought the Diesel version?
My concern is the fuel tank size and limited room underneath w/o some major mods...
I will be sitting on the sidelines for the next 4>5yrs watching how it all comes together and whether it will suit my needs or I have to head in a different direction...

[Deefa]

Will be good to read of your progress and how u find it. I assume u bought the Diesel version?
My concern is the fuel tank size and limited room underneath w/o some major mods...
I will be sitting on the sidelines for the next 4>5yrs watching how it all comes together and whether it will suit my needs or I have to head in a different direction...

Probably a good call, but for me life is ticking away and I make the best of it now. Yes diesel.

Cheers, Brian.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I am sure that the Ineos Grenadier is capable of carrying more but that puts it outside the current driving licence limits.
I suspect it could also be that if they put springing in to give it a big payload it will ride like a ... Toyota.

I remain convinced that a lot of the problems with payloads are due to manufacturers having to put springing in for low weight so cars test drive well. If they were sprung for max weights they would be horrible to ride empty and less people would buy them.

I guess kudos to LR for using air springs as a work around. But it has reliability issues.

With my 110 from 2005.. I think the payload was either 900 or 1000kg. But empty it was bouncy and generally not great when empty. I have got around it with lighter springs and airbags which gives you the best of both. If I did get a grenadier - airbags would be one of the first mods.

Of the few that are in the wild, early pictures of touring has them tail down. [bigwhistle]

[ozscott]

I see the Quatermaster price is crazy compared to dual cab utes. The payload is quite disappointing for such a large vehicle. It could have been a great touring vehicle (the Quater) had it had the sort of payload or even close to the (real) Defender 130.

Cheers

[scarry]

I see the Quatermaster price is crazy compared to dual cab utes. The payload is quite disappointing for such a large vehicle. It could have been a great touring vehicle (the Quater) had it had the sort of payload or even close to the (real) Defender 130.

Cheers

I can't see it taking many sales away from any other brand,in Aus,and probably anywhere else.

It will probably end up a low volume seller,like the old 130 Defender,so accessories will be few and far between.

As a workhorse or tourer,it has no real advantage over a 79 series,apart from being more comfortable,and an auto.

Although a well set up 79 is pretty comfortable,and there are many running around with an auto in them.

[cripesamighty]

The Jeep Gladiator's payload is roughly comparable to the more expensive Quartermaster. Like many people, I was disappointed the payload for both vehicles was not higher, ie. older Defender 110 vs 130. Will be interesting to see how the market reacts to these vehicles over the longer term.

[prelude]

In the land of the blind, the one eyed person is king. ie. when there are little to no options other than low payload ute's, people will choose one of them. In oz you get the 70-series (still, who knows how long that will last) so you have options but not so much anywhere else :)

You guys also get GVM upgrades which in many parts of the (western) world is a real hassle if not impossible to achieve so the grenadier could well end up with 1.5 tonne of payload after modding. Still makes it an expensive car but then again, taking your 70 series to wholesale automatic or whatever to convert it to an auto and some other mods to make it as comfortable as a grenadier will cost you dearly I should imagine.

In any case, the standard professional or company buying a ute will use it as is and potentially that payload is not sufficient indeed. Personally, its another tick on my list of disappointments with the direction ineos has chosen.

-P

[scarry]

In oz you get the 70-series (still, who knows how long that will last) so you have options but not so much anywhere else :)

From a good source i have been told they are done and dusted, for at least Aus,but i haven't heard it from anywhere else so i don't know if it is true or not.

What i do know is some of the big customers have still been getting them,the public had been told they are months or years away.

[Tote]

I see the Quatermaster price is crazy compared to dual cab utes. The payload is quite disappointing for such a large vehicle. It could have been a great touring vehicle (the Quater) had it had the sort of payload or even close to the (real) Defender 130.

Cheers

The crappy payload just wiped out my interest, my 130 cab chassis has a payload of 1607 KG before the tray goes on and the HCPU had a payload of 1476KG. The grenadier at 760KG is a joke from my perspective. I wonder what the towing capacity will be, I bet its a long way from the GCM of 7 tons of the 130.


Regards,
Tote

[RANDLOVER]

While watching the Tour de France Stage 12 the other night I spotted a dark blue one alongside the road on the stage from Roanne to Belville-en-Beaujolais. Not an Ineos team support vehicle by the looks of it, as they prefer wagons/or sedans with low roofs for accessing the bike racks on top.

[spudfan]

From the latest email regarding tests inside the Arctic circle
"The Grenadier Quartermaster. Our new double cab pick-up made its world debut at Goodwood Festival of Speed last week.

It’s our seriously capable off-roader, with extended loadspace. So you can carry up to five adults in comfort, and even the most awkward loads, to remote destinations."
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/ie/the-vehicle/testing-and-development

[cjc_td5]

While watching the Tour de France Stage 12 the other night I spotted one alongside the road on the stage from Roanne to Belville-e- Beaujolais. Not an Ineos team support vehicle by the looks of it, as they prefer wagons/or sedans with low roofs for accessing the bike racks on top.

I've seen two over two days so far, parked beside the road so probably spectator's vehicles... :-)

[Tote]

Spotted my first privately owned one in Canberra this afternoon.

Regards,
Tote

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm really scratching my head at this last price rise. If you go for the Trialmaster which I think most people should, and then add a couple of options you're nudging 140k.

I suspect that's one price rise too many for me. I don't know who's going to buy them. They are too expensive to be a utility 4wd and not flash enough to be a luxury SUV.

My prediction is they will keep busy for a while delivering cars of early adopters (who paid quite a lot less), but once they have delivered them they will struggle to sell in any numbers. I honestly can't see the brand being viable in Australia at that price.

Like I'm sure they will sell a few to cashed up people.. but if they had stayed with their well priced utility promise they started with I honestly thought they would have sold them in the tens of thousands.

It makes me quite sad to say this - but I can't see how they will sell enough to be viable for a dealer and support network. Maybe they know they can't produce enough for the moment so set the price to sell what they can build. Maybe they are hoping to hold the price and let inflation catch them up. Dunno. Maybe they will have discounts or something. Who knows.

But I sure can't justify 140k for a car I really only drive on holiday.

[one_iota]

I'm really scratching my head at this last price rise. If you go for the Trialmaster which I think most people should, and then add a couple of options you're nudging 140k.

I suspect that's one price rise too many for me. I don't know who's going to buy them. They are too expensive to be a utility 4wd and not flash enough to be a luxury SUV.

My prediction is they will keep busy for a while delivering cars of early adopters (who paid quite a lot less), but once they have delivered them they will struggle to sell in any numbers. I honestly can't see the brand being viable in Australia at that price.

Like I'm sure they will sell a few to cashed up people.. but if they had stayed with their well priced utility promise they started with I honestly thought they would have sold them in the tens of thousands.

It makes me quite sad to say this - but I can't see how they will sell enough to be viable for a dealer and support network. Maybe they know they can't produce enough for the moment so set the price to sell what they can build. Maybe they are hoping to hold the price and let inflation catch them up. Dunno. Maybe they will have discounts or something. Who knows.

But I sure can't justify 140k for a car I really only drive on holiday.

I agree. It showed great promise as a replacement for the "classic" Defender. Maybe they are banking on the "urban cool factor" generating sales. The only upside for us with a classic Defender is that the resale market for ours with genuine cool will remain buoyant [thumbsupbig]

[cripesamighty]

You never know, they may sway some of the people who are on a wait list chasing 300 series Landcruisers or other 4WD's that are in the same ball park $$ wise. Whether that will be enough to sustain the brand is another story.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I agree. It showed great promise as a replacement for the "classic" Defender. Maybe they are banking on the "urban cool factor" generating sales. The only upside for us with a classic Defender is that the resale market for ours with genuine cool will remain buoyant [thumbsupbig]

I was seriously bang up for a Grenadier - but I just can't live with the thought of a 140k 4x4 being beaten senseless in the desert or with a leaky pippy bucket in the boot on Fraser.

I really only use our cars for holidays. It's a lot of money to have sitting around all year in the garage.

[one_iota]

I was seriously bang up for a Grenadier - but I just can't live with the thought of a 140k 4x4 being beaten senseless in the desert or with a leaky pippy bucket in the boot on Fraser.

I really only use our cars for holidays. It's a lot of money to have sitting around all year in the garage.

Leather clad and branded Recaro seats gave the game away!

[spudfan]

Should have had removable seat bases, that's practical.

[simonmelb]

For $130k many people would be better off with a used G Wagon Professional which has a 1.1 Ton payload and probably less risk of poor parts availability I would suspect!

And they can be legally converted to a 5 seater with approvals.

[simonmelb]

Just had a quick close up look at 4 Grenadiers at the Brighton dealer.

My observations:

All colours look really good with lovely paint finish. My favourite was the metallic blue ( was a Trialmaster). Metallic red and magic mushroom also very nice.
Leather recaros really really comfortable
Front glove box tiny!
Rear storage space excellent
Im 6ft. Footrest seems ok.
Rear seat legroom behind 6ft driver seat was just ok but a tad more would have been nice
You could unbolt the back seats to have a complete level floor ( level with the top of the battery / fuse compartment)

Would I happily buy one if I had a spare $130k? Probably!

[spudfan]

Regarding the front bumper. It would take a while remembering just how much it does protrude. Imagine the headlines if you gently accidentally rear ended the car in front at traffic lights.
"Grenadier rear ends woman and ruins her day "[bigwhistle]

[Robmacca]

Interesting... Thoughts?

I must admit that I agree with "some" of what he said, but doubt anything will change because while there is people willing to pay the money, they will continue to do what they do... It would be nice to be able to buy a basic version and then over time as u can afford it, build it up the way u want, but I think those days are behind us...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUsVoclFsuY

[prelude]

Although I think he has a point, I believe his "rant" kinda glosses over the "why" though. He does touch upon it when he discussed that de old defender was classless, from farmer to queen, anyone could drive a defender. The grenadier has tried to recreate the defender but it seems that it is aimed squarely at the upper market/class. I feel that it was a necessity for the brand to make the money they need to recoup their investment so it might make sense. Personally I was not into the grenadier experiment for that, I was in it to find a defender style and class vehicle with the best of all worlds preferably.

It also almost feels like he is a bit cross that they did not want to work with him, though I can imagine why since I do believe that he would be fair in his review and point out it's faults and that is not what they want.

Funny thing is, he did not mention the ridiculously low payload of the quartermaster, I am pretty sure he missed that else he would have said something about it.

Finally, the enthusiast is simply not a customer right now, we should look at that market in 5 years or something when they enter the second hand market.

-P

[spudfan]

I agree with a lot of what he says. I definately agree about the seats. I think the Puma seats are excellent and the removable seat bases are a great idea. In my 110 200 tdi station wagon, I replaced the centre middle row seats with high back Exmoor seats because they offered better support for the kids when they were young. That was my decision and I could do it by myself in the back yard and I could afford to do it.
I agree with a lot of his sentiments. I agree with a lot of what Ineos have done with the quality of components used. Whether a very basic Grenadier would have sold is unknown but it would be more my cup of tea.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I think he makes reasonable points. I also think he's right on the unloaded testing. I see that though for all cars. My defender was as rough as hell until I put softer springs and airbags in.

[Hoges]

Mine (diesel) arrived last week. 25km on the odo. A quick run down the Pacific motorway for 30km, top up the tank then home. The BMW 3litre diesel is extremely quiet. The 8sp ZF auto very smooth. At 100kmh there's very little wind noise and virtually no hum from the LT 265/70/17 BFG KO2 tyres. Bumps over broken bitumen are 'heard', rather than felt through the seat. Max torque (550Nm) is achieved at 1250rpm and is a flat curve all the way to 3000rpm. The max power band is from 3,200 -4,000 rpm
Cruise control at 90kmh is very stable... the vehicle sits happily in 8th gear with the engine note sharpening almost imperceptibly as the gradient rises ...but the digital speedo stays on 90kmh.
The (all manual) Recaro seats are comfortable and give good support.
Batteries (2) are located in a cabin-wide compartment under the rear passenger seat cushions along with multiple fuses, relays, a Smartpass 120s battery management system. The auxiliary battery is automatically switched into parallel mode to support the start battery if/when the start battery is low on power.
The overhead console switches take a bit of getting used to.
The head lights are LED ... excellent coverage. The two so-called "driving lights" in the centre grill section provide enhanced illumination on left and right shoulders as well as the intermediate distance. The myriad transient warning messages and so on reported elsewhere haven't been evident. A worldwide software update is due "soon"... whatever that means.
It has a central display including the digital speedometer. In front of the driver is a display about the size of slim rectangular envelope with a couple of dozen illuminated warning icons which extinguish a few seconds after the system has completed its self test, before starting the engine. The centre display operating system is a bit clunky. It has no standard mapping... relies on Apple Car Play or Android auto to provide mapping. The audio system is quite reasonable, includes AF/FM & DAB+ radio.
There are multiple pages and sub menus with all sorts of info previously only available on an OBDII display.
There's another app called "Pathfinder" which has no map itself but uses the vehicle's GPS plot "breadcrumbs"(waypoints) which can be overlaid on a map and set up a reverse path. There are two USB2 ports inside the central cubby (A and C sockets)which are low power and data for the central display as well as higher powered USB charging ports on the rear external face of the cubby.
The USB ports in the cubby can support a HDD or USB stick for music /maps data transfer.
There are several tie-down anchor points in the cabin which are attached with M8 bolts. Two lengths of aircraft-type L track with spring-loaded attachment rings are bolted to the floor in the cargo area.
So far so good!

[spudfan]

Got an update saying they are offering 20% off Grenadier merchandise. Must be slow shifting.
Home Page

– INEOS GRENADIER UK/INTERNATIONAL STORE (https://merchandise.ineosgrenadier.com/?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Goodwood_merch)

[one_iota]

Interesting discussion with Aussie owners courtesy of Robert Pepper:

INEOS Grenadier - early owner experiences - YouTube (https://youtu.be/VwXJsv2vfi0)

[Robmacca]

Interesting discussion with Aussie owners courtesy of Robert Pepper:

INEOS Grenadier - early owner experiences - YouTube (https://youtu.be/VwXJsv2vfi0)

Learnt a fair bit in watching this... still my concern is fuel range and now the ability not to be able to be filled at a high flow bowser...

[one_iota]

Learnt a fair bit in watching this... still my concern is fuel range and now the ability not to be able to be filled at a high flow bowser...

It was informative. The new Defender can be equipped with a Long Ranger tank but likewise won't accept a high-flow bowser nozzle! If I was a decade younger the Grenadier would have been a contender in my vehicle choices. I wish the marque well!

[p38arover]

A mini offroad test by Robert Pepper.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTgupbbRfog&ab_channel=L2SFBC-RobertPepper-autojourno

[prelude]

Interesting discussion with Aussie owners courtesy of Robert Pepper:

INEOS Grenadier - early owner experiences - YouTube (https://youtu.be/VwXJsv2vfi0)

They seem biased to me but interesting nonetheless. Never knew about those high flow nozzles! The one thing I take away is that the car rides really well for a solid axle specimen which is pleasing to hear, can't wait for more real world reviews. Also, I hope many people will buy them :) since that makes for a decent second hand market a few years down the road [bigwhistle]

-P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Got an update saying they are offering 20% off Grenadier merchandise. Must be slow shifting.
Home Page

– INEOS GRENADIER UK/INTERNATIONAL STORE (https://merchandise.ineosgrenadier.com/?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Goodwood_merch)
I'm pretty confident they are going to be offering discounts on the cars once the initial orders are filled.

[spudfan]

Came across this.
Ineos Grenadier BEV Expected To Have At Least 249 Miles Of Range

The battery-electric Grenadier is being tested alongside a hydrogen fuel-cell variant.
Ineos, the British conglomerate that started producing off-roaders in 2022, has promised its first all-electric vehicle will have "at least" 249 miles of range. Ineos already offers a combustion-engined version of the Grenadier, with battery-electric and hydrogen fuel-cell versions currently being tested.

Speaking with Australian outlet Carsales, Ineos Automotive CEO Lynn Calder promised the firm's first battery electric vehicle will deliver a minimum of 400 kilometers (249 miles) of range. The electric Grenadier will be built by Magna Steyr, the same manufacturing firm that builds the Fisker Ocean.
Ineos Automotive is part of a much wider group of companies, all owned by British billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe. Primarily concerned with the chemical industry, Ratcliffe decided to launch Ineos Automotive when he saw a gap in the market for an authentic off-roader. With billions in funding straight away Ineos Automotive was able to grow quickly and started building its first vehicle, the Grenadier, last year.

As you may have guessed, Ratcliffe imagined the Grenadier as a modernized yet still authentic Land Rover Defender. Unimpressed with the L663 Defender, Ratcliffe wanted to provide consumers with a more original off-roader that still featured plenty of modern technology.

The battery-electric Grenadier won't arrive until 2026 however, with the automaker keen to take its time with its first EV. Meanwhile, a hydrogen fuel-cell variant may not arrive until even later. The traditionally-powered Grenadier is currently available in Europe and will launch in Australia later this year. A US release is currently set for the first quarter of 2024. The ICE Grenadier will start at $71,500 in America. Hence we would expect a fully electric variant to cost in the region of $85,000.

Also thAndrei Nedelea From an EV site link
By: Andrei Nedelea
Smaller Ineos 4x4 Coming With Fully Electric Powertrain
Ineos is a brand new company started by chemical engineer and billionaire Jim Ratcliffe who wanted to keep the spirit of the old Land Rover Defender alive after the new model went in quite a different direction. He’s investing over $1-billion into this project, whose first model, the Ineos Grenadier, is set to start deliveries very soon, but now we’ve found one report that the company is also planning to go electric.

Autocar says the news that the company was working on an EV was confirmed to the publication by Ratcliffe himself, who announced that the first electric model would not be an electric version of the already revealed Grenadier hardcore off-roader (pictured). Instead, they will opt to give electric power to a smaller model, possibly a three-door, that will not share underpinnings with the Grenadier and it will be built on an all-new platform, according to the source.

And even though it will be electric, the new Ineos model will be cheaper than the gasoline- or diesel-burning Grenadier, although Ratcliffe didn’t mention by how much. It should be a lot like the short-wheelbase Defender 90 model (also a three-door) and it won’t be sold as a more posh vehicle, but the company will imbue it with the same workhorse spirit present in its other product (which it will sell in both passenger and commercial versions).

[ali676]

The idea of Jim Ratcliffe replicating the Defender may face tough competition as the 4x4 market is already saturated. Success will depend on uniqueness and meeting specific customer demand Car buyer Brisbane (https://https://www.a1wreckers.com.au/Car buyer Brisbane/)

[ali676]

The idea of Jim Ratcliffe replicating the Defender may face tough competition as the 4x4 market is already saturated. Success will depend on uniqueness and meeting specific customer demands.

[prelude]

I'm trying not to be a grumpy old git :) but a BEV grenadier is as ridiculous as a BEV old skool defender, it won't work for what it's intended use was/is. Now, I am not sure if this is going to help us since they will be selling plenty of these to the greenies in the cities and thus keep the brand up and allow them to keep on building the ICE variants or if it detracts and sets them on a path to becoming the new land rover indeed, just a soccer moms car. I am hoping for the first!

-P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There has been a new 78 series released today with some upgrades. Most notably a 2.8 turbo diesel with automatic. I believe this cars official release in Australia is september. If they get the price and supply right I really think this is going to impact Grenadier sales.

There has also been a new car released in the US which they believe will be the Australian prado. Looks pretty good.

[cjc_td5]

There has been a new 78 series released today with some upgrades. Most notably a 2.8 turbo diesel with automatic. I believe this cars official release in Australia is september. If they get the price and supply right I really think this is going to impact Grenadier sales.

There has also been a new car released in the US which they believe will be the Australian prado. Looks pretty good.If only Toyota did a decent PHEV hybrid system to go with it.....

[Homestar]

There has been a new 78 series released today with some upgrades. Most notably a 2.8 turbo diesel with automatic. I believe this cars official release in Australia is september. If they get the price and supply right I really think this is going to impact Grenadier sales.

There has also been a new car released in the US which they believe will be the Australian prado. Looks pretty good.

Oh dear, they’re inflicting more people with the crappy and thirsty 1DG 2.8 litre. The V8 remains ‘for the time being’ is code for ‘The hot v v8 design is bloody aweful and we’re discontinuing it as soon as we can get our suckers - I mean customers, used to the 4 cylinder engine and by that time we can drop the 70 series altogether and consign it to history where it belongs’

Can’t wait for my new car to arrive so I can get out of a Hilux for the first time in 10 years.

[scarry]

Can’t wait for my new car to arrive so I can get out of a Hilux for the first time in 10 years.

Good luck,after 15yrs for us,went to the blue oval,worse thing we ever did.In fact one of them they have still not sorted the blue tooth phone connectivity,a real PITA as it is used by the driver every day many times.That vehicle is over 12 months old.One would think that would not be difficult to sort.And no it isn't the phone.

One of the others has had the AC "fixed" three times,it still doesn't work,but at least the oil leaks were eventually fixed.Two year old,less than 90,000km on it.

[Homestar]

Ford and VW were 2 of the vehicles I was told in no uncertain terms the company won’t buy.

Will have to see if the decision to move away from Yota works out at some stage though.

[spudfan]

There has been a new 78 series released today with some upgrades. Most notably a 2.8 turbo diesel with automatic. I believe this cars official release in Australia is september. If they get the price and supply right I really think this is going to impact Grenadier sales.

There has also been a new car released in the US which they believe will be the Australian prado. Looks pretty good.


If only Toyota did a decent PHEV hybrid system to go with it.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/2024-toyota-land-cruiser-diesel-debuts-in-europe-mild-hybrid-due-2025/ar-AA1eFNwD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=70294c8a5d5f4c028b77c9e4fced7ec1&ei=60

[Tins]

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/2024-toyota-land-cruiser-diesel-debuts-in-europe-mild-hybrid-due-2025/ar-AA1eFNwD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=70294c8a5d5f4c028b77c9e4fced7ec1&ei=60

Well, at least it's not as utterly hideous as the current Prado, but the Europeans wouldn't touch the one we get.

[spudfan]

This is the Land Cruiser we get over here.
Overview | Land Cruiser Business 2.8L Diesel (204 bhp) | Toyota Ireland (https://www.toyota.ie/models/land-cruiser/overview.LANDCRUISER150.218.fcd92459-2613-4f8a-8341-943750e16c01)
I prefer the vehicle on the left. Land Rover used to do something similar by inserting the old Defender into the photos of new models to stress the "heritage" or "lineage" of the new vehicle.

[scarry]

Well, at least it's not as utterly hideous as the current Prado, but the Europeans wouldn't touch the one we get.

They have the same one we have,with mods so it is Euro 6,add blue,etc.

FWIW,LC300 is also used in other markets,with mods for Euro 6,add blue,etc.

[DazzaTD5]

This is the Land Cruiser we get over here.
Overview | Land Cruiser Business 2.8L Diesel (204 bhp) | Toyota Ireland (https://www.toyota.ie/models/land-cruiser/overview.LANDCRUISER150.218.fcd92459-2613-4f8a-8341-943750e16c01)
I prefer the vehicle on the left. Land Rover used to do something similar by inserting the old Defender into the photos of new models to stress the "heritage" or "lineage" of the new vehicle.

its called a "Land Cruiser Prado" in Australia

[3toes]

In the UK the Landcruiser is sold to people who want to tow a horse float so a very different customer base to Australia

[scarry]

In the UK the Landcruiser is sold to people who want to tow a horse float so a very different customer base to Australia

Many LC Prados tow horse floats and small to medium vans here as well.A mate had one that did not much else than towed a double horse float for over 10yrs.
Quite a few do the school run as well.

Although the LC200/300 is used more for the larger vans,and to tow the bigger loads,probably the go to vehicle for that sort of work,particularly as GVM upgrades are readily available.
And many also do the school run.

[one_iota]

In the UK the Landcruiser is sold to people who want to tow a horse float so a very different customer base to Australia
Certainly not disputing that because I don't have the statistics. But as a loose observation most horse floats towed in Australia are probably towed by a Safari model V8 Land Cruiser rather than a Range Rover.[smilebigeye] Of course the Land Cruiser market in Australia is broader than the equestrian crowd.

[V8Ian]

Certainly not disputing that because I don't have the statistics. But as a loose observation most horse floats towed in Australia are probably towed by a Safari model V8 Land Cruiser rather than a Range Rover.[smilebigeye] Of course the Land Cruiser market in Australia is broader than the equestrian crowd.
When I had horses, I couldn't afford a Range Rover, nor for that matter, a Cruiser. Have you seen the fuel consumption of equine vehicles?

[one_iota]

When I had horses, I couldn't afford a Range Rover, nor for that matter, a Cruiser. Have you seen the fuel consumption of equine vehicles?

I thought it was about horse power [bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Certainly not disputing that because I don't have the statistics. But as a loose observation most horse floats towed in Australia are probably towed by a Safari model V8 Land Cruiser rather than a Range Rover.[smilebigeye] Of course the Land Cruiser market in Australia is broader than the equestrian crowd.

FWIW,i was at an Equestrian show in Dirranbandi,recently.Apart from the usual rigid horse trucks,some semi trailers modified to carry horses,and Land Cruisers,Dual cab utes towing floats,there were also numerous LC 70 series tray backs 5th wheelers with tri axle horse floats.

[scarry]

When I had horses, I couldn't afford a Range Rover, nor for that matter, a Cruiser. Have you seen the fuel consumption of equine vehicles?

I thought you would just herd them into the semi......[bigrolf]

Surely there was a suitable 3 decker sitting in a yard somewhere you could steal/borrow for the weekend?[tonguewink]

[V8Ian]

I thought it was about horse power [bigwhistle]
There wasn't much of that, Mahn.
Ben was an ancient, large, white part Arab with a beautiful nature and heart condition. He had a wonderful raport with children and particular affinity to handicapped kids. Unfortunately he wasn't fit enough for older kids to ride him.
Tequila was a cranky, stubborn old swayback who I believe was the mother of all asses.

[3toes]

When I had horses, I couldn't afford a Range Rover, nor for that matter, a Cruiser. Have you seen the fuel consumption of equine vehicles?

Not uncommon here to see a Range Rover towing either a horse float or a caravan. Am sure that in either case the fuel consumption would have been cheaper to fund with the Range Rover

[spudfan]

Seems like Ineos have purchased an African based conversions company. Some of the modifications include a slightly raised ride height and repositioned switchgear.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-grenadier-safari-debuts-with-amphitheater-seats-canvas-roof/ar-AA1fnQO7?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=564dbad875f2438faf9a5c36ab5fafd8&ei=18

[3toes]

The September issue of Land Rover Monthly has a 7 page story on the Grenadier although only a very small picture of the vehicle on the cover so you could easily miss it

[Tins]

Someone posted an ad for a Trailmaster they had taken delivery of on Carsales.... can't find it now. $165K!

[scarry]

Seems like Ineos have purchased an African based conversions company. Some of the modifications include a slightly raised ride height and repositioned switchgear.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-grenadier-safari-debuts-with-amphitheater-seats-canvas-roof/ar-AA1fnQO7?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=564dbad875f2438faf9a5c36ab5fafd8&ei=18

It will be interesting to see how they go there.
Anything complicated with electronics is not usually welcome.
That is why the various 70 series models, with 1 HZ is the go to vehicle,they still get them new.

LR has not really had a look in either since the TD5 appeared.

[3toes]

Recognising the end user needs and the market regulations Toyota makes the engine without electronics for the African market. Remember the electronics are a layer on top they are not required for the engine to operate

This is common across sectors even tractors for India are built in a low tech version for the same reason

The market can be interesting as the age of the National vehicle fleet reflects the prosperity of not just the operator but also the nation.

As an admittedly generalisation for example Toyota has a fair size distributor in Ethiopia. When the vehicles are too worn out for this market they migrate south to Sudan. Then there is the final move from Sudan to Somalia.

Now perhaps they have not considered this market however am not sure the Grenadier in current form will appeal to this market as unless they do as Toyota have the second and third part of the ownership cycle will not be keen due to complexity.

[Tins]

Well, a mechanically injected 1HZ is possibly more reliable than the sun.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm noticing a few reports of the inevitable niggles that you'd expect in brand new vehicles. Apparently a driveline vibration is seemingly very common in the diesel. No fix yet.

My plan was always to wait for maybe a couple of years. Unfortunately they have now put the price up so much that I just can't see me being able to use it as a 4x4. Probably won't worry those driving around town in them. Oh well.

It's worth noting that all the people currently having cars delivered will have paid significantly less than list price. Which IMHO is quite a different equation.

[spudfan]

The vibration issue could be a simple fix as on the old Defender 110 where a balancing weight is fitted to the rear shaft. Strange this did not show up during all of that pre launch testing.

[disco gazza]

Cant remember where it was on Sesame St, but I did see a Grenadier travelling south when I was coming down to catch the ferry home.
It wasnt travelling at the posted 110kph, think it was doing around 90-95kph. T'was in NSW so not sure if it was a local tootling down to the shops or a traveller.
Didnt seem to be loaded up with gear so maybe a local. Appeared to be similar to the old Deefer size wise.

cheers
DG

[Saitch]

Well, a mechanically injected 1HZ is possibly more reliable than the sun.

Yep. Sadly, I won't see 1,000,000 kilometres, with my future, driving age expectancy.

186723

[scarry]

This guy does good reviews.


INEOS Grenadier as a Touring 4x4? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Dq8qizM_NVQ'si=azIUK3o61ippyK33)

[spudfan]

I enjoyed that. It was a pretty sensible over view. I take on board his comments on the engine bay seal. I know on the old Defender and series Land Rovers there was a gap or no seal as such when the bonnet was closed. To my mind this would help with keeping the engine cool. In Australia the seal will no doubt help keep out dust and sand but probably makes the cooling system work harder. Regarding the foot rest. I agree this could be a big factor on long journeys. I remember being in a charity tractor run in the series 111 2.25 diesel. Owing to the speed involved there was not much gear changing and I had to keep on moving my left leg and foot to stop it cramping up. So I think the automatic set up with the footrest could be an issue.

[RANDLOVER]

Yep. Sadly, I won't see 1,000,000 kilometres, with my future, driving age expectancy.

186723

Time to do that big trip around Aus/World now.

[scarry]

I enjoyed that. It was a pretty sensible over view. I take on board his comments on the engine bay seal. I know on the old Defender and series Land Rovers there was a gap or no seal as such when the bonnet was closed. To my mind this would help with keeping the engine cool. In Australia the seal will no doubt help keep out dust and sand but probably makes the cooling system work harder. Regarding the foot rest. I agree this could be a big factor on long journeys. I remember being in a charity tractor run in the series 111 2.25 diesel. Owing to the speed involved there was not much gear changing and I had to keep on moving my left leg and foot to stop it cramping up. So I think the automatic set up with the footrest could be an issue.

A great review.

Overall,a much better off the shelf set up vehicle for touring than the new Defender.It is better in just about every way,except for having diff pumpkins to get hung up on.
And possibly fuel economy,which is not a huge issue.
Hopefully QC will improve to the standards of some of the others.
I like being able to see Auto temps,which is very handy when working a vehicle hard,particularly if towing,or in soft sand.
Being ladder frame,no doubt many accessories will turn up in the next few years.
That is where modern LR's fall down,having a monocoque design,making it very difficult to fit accessories,and no GVM upgrades,etc,to tow the bigger vans.

But i wonder when European manufacturers will see the light and increase fuel tank size.

We now have a vehicle with a bigger tank and a huge range,we find it very handy.It will be hard to go back to a smaller tank.

And for those that are pedantic about the cost of fuel(which is not me),with a bigger tank,one should be able to follow the fuel cycle and save a heap of $$ as well.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I enjoyed that. It was a pretty sensible over view. I take on board his comments on the engine bay seal. I know on the old Defender and series Land Rovers there was a gap or no seal as such when the bonnet was closed. To my mind this would help with keeping the engine cool. In Australia the seal will no doubt help keep out dust and sand but probably makes the cooling system work harder. Regarding the foot rest. I agree this could be a big factor on long journeys. I remember being in a charity tractor run in the series 111 2.25 diesel. Owing to the speed involved there was not much gear changing and I had to keep on moving my left leg and foot to stop it cramping up. So I think the automatic set up with the footrest could be an issue.
It's exactly the opposite. Buy sealing that you're forcing the hot air to move back and escape under the car. If there is no seal there the area could have the pressure raised slightly at speed which isn't ideal.

In reality it's probably mostly about stopping hot air gushing out when parked.

[one_iota]

This guy does good reviews.


INEOS Grenadier as a Touring 4x4? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Dq8qizM_NVQ'si=azIUK3o61ippyK33)

Robert does a good job! For those who don't know he is a member here as RMP although since not now driving a Land Rover he's not active.

If I were to make a comparison between the Grenadier and the Defender bearing in mind it depends on the type of touring and given my experience touring the two off-the-shelf advantages the Grenadier has are wheel size and optional auxiliary battery.

[Tins]

Good to see such an open minded review from someone who knows touring and is not owned by the industry.

[scarry]

Come on,own up, who's is it?
My LR nut brother sent this today.

I am yet to see one.

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16668573/640/16668573.jpg (https://picturepush.com/public/16668573)

[scarry]

It's exactly the opposite. Buy sealing that you're forcing the hot air to move back and escape under the car. If there is no seal there the area could have the pressure raised slightly at speed which isn't ideal.

In reality it's probably mostly about stopping hot air gushing out when parked.

They were originally fitted to stop hot air from the engine bay going onto the windscreen and also into the fresh air intake,which is usually just behind the bonnet,at the base of the windscreen.
Today it probably also helps with noise suppresion,and as said,directs the air out over the transmission,as most vehicles have large undertrays.
Many vehicles dont have it across the front of the engine bay,only the sides and rear.

[Tins]

This bloke is off on a trip in one. Might be of interest.

https://youtu.be/dovijGIVokI'si=IHZjWIeo-MDuqBl0

[spudfan]

Good video. Did not recognise him when he took the glasses off. The fuel gauge thing would be a worry. I never trust any fuel gauge once it reaches the quarter full mark. Once it reaches that I fill up. The odd warning popping up shows that what people were concerned about in the new Defender can occur with any modern car with electronic warning systems. Maybe the paramaters need to be tweeked on how information is processed by the ECU.
The fuel consumption looked a little heavy when I worked it out but factoring in that he was towing, had a loaded roof rack and no doubt gear inside plus the weight of the vehicle it is obviously going to run heavy on fuel but I did not expect it to be that sore on fuel. But when you buy this vehicle you accept it comes at a cost and you decide to live with it. If I had one I would have accepted this when buying the vehicle instead of something that could give more kmh to the tank full. No point in buying a vehicle you do not like just because it is easier on fuel as you probably would not drive it. Also noticed, your green grass is brown.
Time to give the Mrs an ultimatum. A Grenadier or I might consider having an affair....

[RANDLOVER]

In yesterday's Vuelta stage at 10.3 kms from the finish I spotted a red and black Grenadier, probably an Ineos support vehicle as those are their colours.

[scarry]

This guy does good reviews,here it is up against the best in the business.Interesting for the Defender owners as well.

4X4 Tourers Offroad: Grenadier, Defender, LC300, Patrol: Part 1 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/sz5BgEnU4cM'si=8XkuU0dZTeeSPrkS)

[V8Ian]

This guy does good reviews,here it is up against the best in the business.Interesting for the Defender owners as well.

4X4 Tourers Offroad: Grenadier, Defender, LC300, Patrol: Part 1 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/sz5BgEnU4cM'si=8XkuU0dZTeeSPrkS)
Watched that last night. "This guy" used to be a forum member.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Now that they have priced themselves to be a proven off roader with an established service and parts network.... I'm quite happy to sit back and wait until both of those things are true. [bigwhistle]

[Tins]

This guy does good reviews,here it is up against the best in the business.Interesting for the Defender owners as well.

4X4 Tourers Offroad: Grenadier, Defender, LC300, Patrol: Part 1 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/sz5BgEnU4cM'si=8XkuU0dZTeeSPrkS)

For that to be truly meaningful all vehicles should have been standard and have been wheeled by one independent driver. The various "extras" and tyre upgrades made the comparisons pointless imo. True, the Trialmaster would be the Gren of choice for off roaders. The Toyota sway bar disconnect would be a must tick option. Etc. The Defender was probably the closest to "out of the box" spec of all of them.

All that said, it was interesting. Anyone else notice the number plate games? Or did I imagine that?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

For that to be truly meaningful all vehicles should have been standard and have been wheeled by one independent driver. The various "extras" and tyre upgrades made the comparisons pointless imo. True, the Trialmaster would be the Gren of choice for off roaders. The Toyota sway bar disconnect would be a must tick option. Etc. The Defender was probably the closest to "out of the box" spec of all of them.

All that said, it was interesting. Anyone else notice the number plate games? Or did I imagine that?
When he asked up front "which one do we think will win" I mentally answered "The defender if everything stays working".

I was impressed at the Toyota Brake Traction Control. They were pretty rubbish at those systems but looks like they've been busy. The Grenadier BTC seemed very slow. You'd definitely want the lockers.

[scarry]

The Defender was probably the closest to "out of the box" spec of all of them.

The 300 was 'out of the box",standard GR.

Defender could have been optioned up.Apparently it had the E diff,i don't know if that is an option anymore?

I don't think the same driver would make any difference, tyres could,but they all ran AT's,so no huge difference there.

The drivers all had to follow the same lines.

[scarry]

When he asked up front "which one do we think will win" I mentally answered "The defender if everything stays working".

I was impressed at the Toyota Brake Traction Control. They were pretty rubbish at those systems but looks like they've been busy.

Defender had the E diff,the Tojo had only BTC,and did it just as easily.Having better wheel travel is a huge advantage in that type of test run.

The LC200 also has a brilliant BTC system,and the "Crawl Control" is fantastic.In fact Robbert Pepper has a vid where he couldn't drive a very rough incline,but crawl control did it.

Part two will be interesting.

[Xtreme]

I was surprised with the slowness of the Grenadiers TC to react. It would have done a lot better if thr TC had cut in earlier like all the others, the best of which IMHO was the Toyota.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I was surprised with the slowness of the Grenadiers TC to react. It would have done a lot better if thr TC had cut in earlier like all the others, the best of which IMHO was the Toyota.
I suspect if you had a Grenadier without diff locks who had to rely on the BTC I suspect you'd want to be pretty circumspect in those sort of conditions. I don't think that's acceptable for that ilk of car.

[354 chamberlain]

It was no surprise to me about the grenadier TC as I was lucky enough to test drive a prototype late last year , the unit I drove had no tc or locking front or rear diffs and probablty out performed most other similar vehicles that had open diffs and no tc , when I asked the ineos bloke about it he said that this paticular prototype was not testing either but the production models would have limited tc as to keep the electronics required to a minium . A bit of a guess here but I think that stability control is a legal requirment and the tc is just a spin off of the stability control . There seemed to be a policy to keep electronics out of the drive train as much as posible and just go with the locking diffs .

[Tins]

The 300 was 'out of the box",standard GR.

.

GR is hardly "stock" as I meant it. It's only about $40K above the base GX.

The Landcruiser GX is followed in the 300 Series line-up by the GXL, VX, Sahara, GR Sport, and finally, the Sahara ZX.

Don't think the GX gets the e-KDSS system.

[scarry]

GR is hardly "stock" as I meant it. It's only about $40K above the base GX.

The Landcruiser GX is followed in the 300 Series line-up by the GXL, VX, Sahara, GR Sport, and finally, the Sahara ZX.

Don't think the GX gets the e-KDSS system.

Only GR has E KDSS,and dual diff locks,and a whole lot of different ride settings,etc,etc,etc,for those that want all the fancy stuff,all no cost options.

All models have the same BTC.

As i said,Defender in test had Ediff,which from the LR site appears to be an additional cost option,may have also had other options,such as TR2,but we don't know.
So definitely not "stock".How much the Defender cost above the base model,unknown,and irrelevant.

Might find out more in Part 2.[smilebigeye]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It was no surprise to me about the grenadier TC as I was lucky enough to test drive a prototype late last year , the unit I drove had no tc or locking front or rear diffs and probablty out performed most other similar vehicles that had open diffs and no tc , when I asked the ineos bloke about it he said that this paticular prototype was not testing either but the production models would have limited tc as to keep the electronics required to a minium . A bit of a guess here but I think that stability control is a legal requirment and the tc is just a spin off of the stability control . There seemed to be a policy to keep electronics out of the drive train as much as posible and just go with the locking diffs .
If you've got ABS then everything required for traction control is present. How well it works is totally dependent on calibration. Having well or poorly calibrated TC makes no difference to the amount/complexity of electronics.

[Tins]

Only GR has E KDSS,and dual diff locks,and a whole lot of different ride settings,etc,etc,etc,for those that want all the fancy stuff,all no cost options.

All models have the same BTC.

As i said,Defender in test had Ediff,which from the LR site appears to be an additional cost option,may have also had other options,such as TR2,but we don't know.
So definitely not "stock".How much the Defender cost above the base model,unknown,and irrelevant.

Might find out more in Part 2.[smilebigeye]

Kinda my point, Paul. The test was flawed as the playing field was not level. Also, saying the e-KDSS is a "no cost option" is only accurate if you have paid the $40+ K premium over the GX.

As Robert, who has my respect, said; the test was not about value for money. Therefore base models with factory wheel/tyre fitments would have made more sense. I appreciate that he does not have the resources to do this.

As I said, it was interesting, but in no way representative.

[scarry]

If you've got ABS then everything required for traction control is present. How well it works is totally dependent on calibration. Having well or poorly calibrated TC makes no difference to the amount/complexity of electronics.

Correct,it is calibration and software.

FWIW,on some vehicles it is less savage due to driveline design,and to help reduce driveline stress.

Same as some 4WD vehicles with rear diff locks,when activated,they will drop off BTC,for driveline preservation.So the front then acts as an open diff.

[354 chamberlain]

If you've got ABS then everything required for traction control is present. How well it works is totally dependent on calibration. Having well or poorly calibrated TC makes no difference to the amount/complexity of electronics.

As I said the reason for the limited response was only a guess by me however it is intentional on Ineos part , that was clearly stated at the test drive .

[3toes]

One of the inherent problems with a group test is in the vehicles themselves. This is not the person setting up the test as they will have worked hard to obtain one of each available at the same time. The demo fleet is limited and you have to work to obtain one and then bringing them all together on the one day at the same place is best described as difficult. You are then subject to what is on the demo fleet at the time. The manufacturers will decide this and you have to work with that. They due to their own operational requirements on the day can send a different vehicle to the one you thought you were going to get. So have exactly comparable vehicles is not really likely to happen unless you can find owners of vehicles who are willing to allow you to do to their pride and joy what motoring journalists do. Have seen new vehicles returned in what you could call less than pristine condition from a driving course that beginners use without serious problems. The best they can do is call out the differences in spec and how that may have impacted their performance relative to others in the test

[one_iota]

My takeaway is that they all made the grade. Each in a different way with different mechanical solutions. I'd be happy to convoy with any of them. That said, nothing looks better than good solid axle articulation.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Saw my first one on the road yesterday.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/f2lJxGDtxIw'si=lXFYztcWuesI_pW2

[spudfan]

Enjoyable and informative. Does the INEOS have a pull out filler neck like the series Land Rover?

[scarry]

Saw my first one on the road yesterday.

Saw a silver one today.
Somehow I don’t think they could have made it more ugly,just my thoughts.

[Tombie]

Saw a post on FB today, seems a true successor to the Defender!

Pic shows water in the footwell from leaks!

[loanrangie]

Saw a post on FB today, seems a true successor to the Defender!

Pic shows water in the footwell from leaks!

Internal or external ?

[Tombie]

Internal or external ?

Rain and resulting puddle on floor around accelerator pedal

[Tins]

Rain and resulting puddle on floor around accelerator pedal

Saw that too. Bloke still has a Deefer so was in a position to know!

[spudfan]

Could be a loose bladder owing to the excitement of finally getting one.....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Saw a silver one today.
Somehow I don’t think they could have made it more ugly,just my thoughts.
I don't mind the look of it. I'd be surprised if the aftermarket doesn't do a "defender bonnet" pretty soon. I think they will be hard to spot on the in traffic when someone does that.

[discomatt69]

Saw a post on FB today, seems a true successor to the Defender!

Pic shows water in the footwell from leaks!

I have been following the Ineos closely on the Grenadier forum, water leaks is the least of the teething problems, they are more like the Defender than I would like and certainly not rushing out to place an order.
The water leak is due to water pooling between the 2 door seals and running into the car every time the door is opened.
They also have failed air con, faulty brakes, numerous electrical faults that show up warnings but no limp mode, components with surface rust, safari window leaks, transfer case out of spec issues that need to be replaced and probably a few more.
They have released a software update that seems to have fixed a lot of the electrical issues but plenty of people still complain about navigation and phone connection plus the display screens do some very strange things like randomly change settings and dropping out altogether.
Most early owners are very happy with the design, overall build quality and car basics like steering, suspension, engine and running gear and say its what the Defender should have been
Personally I am waiting for the second generation to be released and seeing how they go as a replacement of the D4

[scarry]

but plenty of people still complain about navigation and phone connection plus the display screens do some very strange things like randomly change settings and dropping out altogether.


The 18month old work Ranger does exactly this,seems they are struggling to sort it,after numerous attempts.Looking at social media,the latest model is no better.But they have fixed the oil leaks,so far all good.[bighmmm]

No real surprise the Grenadier is having issues,it is a huge challenge to make a new vehicle from scratch,let alone be as fault free as the best in the business.

LR are still struggling with Quality Control after 70 or so years.

[Tins]

LR are still struggling with Quality Control after 70 or so years.

No they're not. They gave up on QC with the Series II.

[discomatt69]

The 18month old work Ranger does exactly this,seems they are struggling to sort it,after numerous attempts.Looking at social media,the latest model is no better.But they have fixed the oil leaks,so far all good.[bighmmm]

No real surprise the Grenadier is having issues,it is a huge challenge to make a new vehicle from scratch,let alone be as fault free as the best in the business.

LR are still struggling with Quality Control after 70 or so years.
I heard a report the other day stating over 43% of all cars sold now have faults that the owner needs to go back to get fixed, either LR sales have gone through the roof or all manufacturers have issues
So far after 37 years of car ownership my Disco 4 is the most reliable car I have ever owned with me doing well over 100,000km without a single issue, even my EL falcon wasn't as reliable as the Disco and that was a fantastic car with only 1 head gasket and 1 radiator in 150,000km

[scarry]

I heard a report the other day stating over 43% of all cars sold now have faults that the owner needs to go back to get fixed, either LR sales have gone through the roof or all manufacturers have issues
So far after 37 years of car ownership my Disco 4 is the most reliable car I have ever owned with me doing well over 100,000km without a single issue, even my EL falcon wasn't as reliable as the Disco and that was a fantastic car with only 1 head gasket and 1 radiator in 150,000km

Let me know when you get two that do over 330K Km,without a single repair,only normal services,tyres and batteries.Not even brakes.
There are another two here,around the 250K Km also nothing for one,other had a blocked Cat,that was replaced recently,probably caused by the LPG.
And they were loaded manual service vehicles,so doing stops and starts around town all day.
By far the most reliable vehicles i have ever owned(over 45yrs) or used in our business(over 32yrs).
You can probably guess the brand.
Sure they are not 4WD,and dont go off road,but still,a lot better than some manufacturers could even dream of.
We have actually had more issues with the latest two Rangers in the last 18 months.That is one reason one is going shortly,and if it keeps up, with the other one, it will be going as well.


Our D4 probably had less issues than any other LR,but the issues were way more expensive to repair,noting i didn't do all the repairs myself,but used a good Indie.
During the warranty period it had a number of smallish repairs,some LR couldn't sort after many attempts,particularly the annoying loud dash rattle on some road surfaces that was there from new.

[Tins]

I had an EF that had done over 800,000, although it must be said that it was an ex taxi. Couple of BTR 4 speeds according to the paperwork. HG as well. But...

I currently have a BA with 250,000 ks of rough treatment and it has had a radiator, a centre bearing and the K frame bushes. Not much else. The headlining is looking more and more like a collapsed tent however. Reminds me of my D2.

I really like my TD5 D2, 320,000 k, but I have spent more on it than all my recent Fords combined. And Ford seems to be a dirty word to some on here. Son recently sold his 3.2 Ranger 4WD at 160,000, and all it had was a thermostat issue fixed under warranty.

[discomatt69]

Not sure how anyone could expect a 3 ton car, that is constantly at or just over GVM that gets used in everything from towing well over 2 ton to speed runs at well over 150 to extreme 4wding not to even need a set of brakes, if a car doesn't need brakes in anywhere near 300,000km its obviously never driven hard, never driven fast, never does any hard work, never tows and always driven like "driving Miss Daisy " and is as bland as they come !!

Gee I wonder what type of car that would be? Certainly not a 4wd, certainly not a car that gives any owner satisfaction or sense of joy and certainly not a car that provides anything other than a boring A to B commute , Toyota anyone?

[scarry]

Not sure how anyone could expect a 3 ton car, that is constantly at or just over GVM that gets used in everything from towing well over 2 ton to speed runs at well over 150 to extreme 4wding not to even need a set of brakes, if a car doesn't need brakes in anywhere near 300,000km its obviously never driven hard, never driven fast, never does any hard work, never tows and always driven like "driving Miss Daisy " and is as bland as they come !!

Gee I wonder what type of car that would be? Certainly not a 4wd, certainly not a car that gives any owner satisfaction or sense of joy and certainly not a car that provides anything other than a boring A to B commute , Toyota anyone?

Yes commercial vehices,loaded,up close to GVM all the time,driven by different drivers.

As i said,not 4WD,no off road.

[spudfan]

Personally I am waiting for the second generation to be released
Many a time I thought I should have taken this approach with the wife.

[discomatt69]

Many a time I thought I should have taken this approach with the wife.
Yep the younger sister is often a better option

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Let me know when you get two that do over 330K Km,without a single repair,only normal services,tyres and batteries.Not even brakes.
There are another two here,around the 250K Km also nothing for one,other had a blocked Cat,that was replaced recently,probably caused by the LPG.
And they were loaded manual service vehicles,so doing stops and starts around town all day.
By far the most reliable vehicles i have ever owned(over 45yrs) or used in our business(over 32yrs).
You can probably guess the brand.
Sure they are not 4WD,and dont go off road,but still,a lot better than some manufacturers could even dream of.
We have actually had more issues with the latest two Rangers in the last 18 months.That is one reason one is going shortly,and if it keeps up, with the other one, it will be going as well.


Our D4 probably had less issues than any other LR,but the issues were way more expensive to repair,noting i didn't do all the repairs myself,but used a good Indie.
During the warranty period it had a number of smallish repairs,some LR couldn't sort after many attempts,particularly the annoying loud dash rattle on some road surfaces that was there from new.
From what I've seen perhaps the D4 is better than the D3. But they are newer.

The thing with QC is not necessarily that cars don't have faults... it's that you want as few a faults as you can, and as minor faults as you can. Say 20% of your cars have lots of issues that owners are always pestering dealers about for fixes? That's a pain. It's expensive for a manufacturer and lots of unhappy people who might not buy again? What if 1/100 had a catastrophic failure which required the whole car replacing but 99 were perfect? There is also the issue of design life and how long they have to keep running for. Which their obligations under consumer law usually extends well past the warranty.. another can of worms.

I think the place ineos are at now like virtually all of them have some amount of issues - but not ones that they currently have fixes for. And they don't know what the issues will be with time and use yet.. it's basically delivery issues.

I bought a BMW MINI in 2002 and it should have had "PROTOTYPE" written on it because that was what it was. From brand new it was just a continual procession of failures. Often they would replace parts that hadn't been fixed and then they would fail too. Lots of stupid design issues, production issues etc. The thing is with that car was they would fix some things, and come up with new parts which would remedy the faults. But it just never stopped. I owned it for four years and new faults just kept coming. And some things they just never fixed.

The warranty was only two years back then - but BMW kept fixing things. In the end I just gave up as it was just never working properly. They fixed a lot of stuff - but there were some issues that were baked in where they just changed the design of the new cars and it was impossible to retro fit. The people at BMW knew most owners would give up because there was no fixing all the faults.

Meanwhile new builds improved quickly. Within a couple of years they had reasonably good quality. What people would consider normal.

I later found out that the german manufacturers have a term for this. I don't know what the german word is but it's "kinder cars" or children cars. Where manufacturers expect the early ones to have lots of problems and they usually try and help the original owners.

Anyway - I reckon this is where ineos is at the moment. The cars are riddled with bugs and faults. They don't know what all the issues even are, and they haven't got fixes yet even for the known ones. It's going to be a long road for company and the first owners. Time will tell whether the issues are fixable or "baked in" which can't really be fixed. I suspect this is going to unfold over the coming years.

I didn't order one at launch because I didn't want to be part of this process. And now they have put the prices up. I don't think I'd be paying that until they can sell you a quality car with proper support network. If I needed a car now I'd definitely go elsewhere. Might be different in a few years.

[3toes]

Not a chance for any of her sisters here

[Tins]

Yep the younger sister is often a better option

Is that where I have gone wrong?

[scarry]

Yep the younger sister is often a better option

I have the youngest,she has lasted quite a while,but that could be luck[bigrolf]

[V8Ian]

I have the youngest,she has lasted quite a while,but that could be luck[bigrolf]
Or great tolerance on her behalf. [bighmmm]

[V8Ian]

Sir Jim Ratcliffe pours almost PS700m into carmaking division (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/20/jim-ratcliffe-pours-almost-700m-carmaking-division/)

Sorta counts me out of starting a car factory. [bigsad]

[scarry]

Sir Jim Ratcliffe pours almost PS700m into carmaking division (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/20/jim-ratcliffe-pours-almost-700m-carmaking-division/)

Sorta counts me out of starting a car factory. [bigsad]

Probably a drop in the ocean for him.

[Homestar]

Probably a drop in the ocean for him.

Yeah - His net worth is around 30 billion pounds so it would be like me spending a few hundred on car parts. 🤣

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yeah - His net worth is around 30 billion pounds so it would be like me spending a few hundred on car parts. 🤣
It does show though.. that making a car for hardly anything and then persuading enough customers that it's worth what used to be a house is a secret superpower of legacy brands.

[scarry]

It does show though.. that making a car for hardly anything and then persuading enough customers that it's worth what used to be a house is a secret superpower of legacy brands.

I often wonder why people buy them.(Legacy brands)

Just today i was talking to a mate that sold Mercs for 10 yrs,his father sold them for 25 yrs, he certainly has a few stories.[biggrin]

Anyway,off to hide under a rock.[bigrolf]

[V8Ian]

Probably a drop in the ocean for him.
Wish he could send a little mist my way. [bigrolf]

[Saitch]

I had a sit in the driver's seat of one recently and I don't think I could put the non-stop hours in that I did in my D1 or do in my present D3. I reckon anyone my height (186cm) or over, will find the helm position a little awkward and tiresome.

One would still be on my shopping, shortlist list if my Blotto numbers come good.

[Tins]

One would still be on my shopping, shortlist list if my Blotto numbers come good.

Tink I'd be paying to have a TDV8 chucked into a D4 if that happened.

[Saitch]

Tink I'd be paying to have a TDV8 chucked into a D4 if that happened.

What about a D3?[biggrin]

[Tins]

What about a D3?[biggrin]

Sure, why not?

[Saitch]

Sure, why not?

Well, hurry up and win! My D3 is awaiting.

[scarry]

Sure, why not?

Too old,if it isn't falling apart now it will be soon,unfortunately.

With lotto money a D4 2016 is the go.

[Tins]

Too old,if it isn't falling apart now it will be soon,unfortunately.

With lotto money a D4 2016 is the go.

I reckon this one might turn out ok. And it would have been the perfect time...


https://youtu.be/w-1aIQM0f8U'si=U6i7MsJUv2Vd7FGt

[one_iota]

Simon has a look at the Ineos Grenadier Quartermaster

INEOS Quartermaster Pickup Review & Ineos Grenadier EV Update + Future Direction.... - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMLCZAVDZfE&t=10s)

[prelude]

so, I was browsing vehicles and I just remembered: the grenadier is a thing! let's see if I can finally find some prices for us dutchies. Right.

The trialmaster goes for almost 190K euro's, that's a whopping 315K aud. I kid you not, 95K euro is extra tax because of it's engine(s).

I remember someone complaining a while back on this forum somewhere that oz was behind with "only" euro 5 emissions standards and should get with the program and what not, I guess he does not want to get with OUR program...

So, to put it mildy, a grenadier is never going to happen on this end. :(

-P

[stuarth44]

so, I was browsing vehicles and I just remembered: the grenadier is a thing! let's see if I can finally find some prices for us dutchies. Right.

The trialmaster goes for almost 190K euro's, that's a whopping 315K aud. I kid you not, 95K euro is extra tax because of it's engine(s).

I remember someone complaining a while back on this forum somewhere that oz was behind with "only" euro 5 emissions standards and should get with the program and what not, I guess he does not want to get with OUR program...

So, to put it mildy, a grenadier is never going to happen on this end. :(

-P
dunno, but Jim Radcliffe is one hell of a man, supporting sailing,cycling, Le Tour, he's never going to kick back n drink beer and not try new things, in saying this the Inious rides like a truck, there is a youtoob vid on that from a guy
Ineos Grenadier Trialmaster review. How does it work as a farm car? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvF-R7PXNW8&t=6s&ab_channel=Harry%27sFarm)


for me the 2016 sdv6 of mine is the bestest 4x4 I have ever driven, it has 127000km and I am the second owner, only regret being the beige leather as I am not some office wallah and usually covered in either building materials or other workshop stuff

[TonyC]

so, I was browsing vehicles and I just remembered: the grenadier is a thing! let's see if I can finally find some prices for us dutchies. Right.

The trialmaster goes for almost 190K euro's, that's a whopping 315K aud. I kid you not, 95K euro is extra tax because of it's engine(s).

I remember someone complaining a while back on this forum somewhere that oz was behind with "only" euro 5 emissions standards and should get with the program and what not, I guess he does not want to get with OUR program...

So, to put it mildy, a grenadier is never going to happen on this end. :(

-P

If half the price is "extra tax" due to the engine/s what is being taxed, and how does it compare to the rest of Europe?

Tony

[prelude]

If half the price is "extra tax" due to the engine/s what is being taxed, and how does it compare to the rest of Europe?

Tony

We used to have a system called BPM (it is still called that btw) which was roughly speaking a luxury tax on cars and motorbikes. It is calculated over commercial vehicles as well but businesses can reclaim that tax just as they can reclaim the VAT. Some years ago they started calling it the "slurp tax" ie. inefficient cars were to be taxed higher and efficient cars were to be taxed lower. These days you pay by the amount of CO2 emitted. Since the ineos only achieves 327 g/km it is taxed ridiculously high. (the 90k+ mentioned before)

Just as a side note; the BPM tax break for commercial vehicles (van's basically) is going to be cancelled in 2025. This means that a 20K van will probably cost around 40k and possibly more since your average van has between 150 and 200 gr/km emissions. This also means that just a bout everything in this country is going to yet again get substantially more expensive. Of course this is all on the vague notion that companies should buy electric van's but, yeah, that is not going to work now is it? It is either not going to have the range or conversely not have the load carrying capacity to, I dunno, DO ITS JOB. Mind you, we can only legally drive 3.5tonne here without a truck license and we do not have the concept of GVM upgrades either. There was a plan to up that to 4.2tonne but it seems they cancelled that. Just to put things into perspective.

Most countries in Europe never had a BPM system as far as I know. It has been very popular to buy and own cars from abroad for decades because of it. Of course our friends in the government have been closing those loops steadily since. There have been countries that taxed on horsepower/engine capacity (france, italy) but that was road tax, not a luxury tax in essence. We ALSO have road tax down here and it is calculated on weight of the vehicle X fuel type, petrol being the cheapest, followed by LPG and diesel. The idea being that high milers won't drive petrol. Naturally the extremely heavy EV's are not taxed (yet) but we'll get there no doubt ;)

Long story short, any "decent" car here has become unobtainium unless you buy them second hand from abroad AND when they are old enough. (BPM gets less per year). So a troopy for example(petrol only since the diesels can't comply with euro 7 emissions standards) which costs 52K euro's excluding taxes down here is available for purchase in Germany, but when I try to import it and put it on the road just like the ineos it'll cost me a fortune. By that same token a 125K range rover V8 is around 250K in this little postage-stamp-size-country.

Ah well, I digress :)

Cheers,
-P

[Halfsize]

Seen a few recently , on the road they look more like a Defender than a Defender does [bigsmile]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Seen a few recently , on the road they look more like a Defender than a Defender does [bigsmile]

Wait till someone does a "defender bonnet kit" with a replacement defender style bonnet. That will be tough then.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Good review by Sam who has owned classic defenders.

"Expensive for a utility vehicle".

Once they have delivered the ones they have orders for I really do think they'll struggle. I spoke to the dealer last week and said "sorry.. it's too expensive for me now". He kinda nodded and said he thought they had gone too hard with the price rises. Yup. They had had like three price rises before the first cars were even here...

I ran through my specs again the other week. Trialmaster in white with basically the only options being a bull bar and sliders was nudging 140k. So it's easy to see how you would get to 150k. IMHO if they had kept to their initial prices which was basically a small premium over a 76 series they would have sold in plausibly tens of thousands.

Apparently there are a number of cars available from cancelled orders in stock. I reckon by mid next year it's going to be interesting. Will they be able to get by with tiny volumes or will they reduce prices?


https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2024-ineos-grenadier-review-australian-first-drive/

[one_iota]

Seen a few recently , on the road they look more like a Defender than a Defender does [bigsmile]

Two "Defenders" were spotted by my passenger who is my early wave warning assistant with the exclamation "Land Rover" .....they were being delivered on a tilt tray. I was able to correct her as the rear tail lights were a dead give away!

[scarry]

I ran through my specs again the other week. Trialmaster in white with basically the only options being a bull bar and sliders was nudging 140k. So it's easy to see how you would get to 150k. IMHO if they had kept to their initial prices which was basically a small premium over a 76 series they would have sold in plausibly tens of thousands. [/URL]

I doubt it,European vehicles have never sold well here,the mines,fleet,and Govt markets would have been extremely difficult to penetrate.

With the new 70 series models,they have huge competition,better payload,tried and tested,great reputation for reliability,more accessories available than probably most vehicles on the planet,dealers all over the place,and on it goes.

[Tins]

T the rear tail lights were a dead give away!

Why? Do defenders have their tail lights on the front?

[Arapiles]

I bought a BMW MINI in 2002 and it should have had "PROTOTYPE" written on it because that was what it was. From brand new it was just a continual procession of failures. Often they would replace parts that hadn't been fixed and then they would fail too. Lots of stupid design issues, production issues etc. The thing is with that car was they would fix some things, and come up with new parts which would remedy the faults. But it just never stopped. I owned it for four years and new faults just kept coming. And some things they just never fixed.




This was the Holden approach - let the owners be part of the development team.

[Arapiles]

..... around the inner North over the last few weeks, so there are a few now in the hands of owners.

[one_iota]

Why? Do defenders have their tail lights on the front?


We were travelling in the same direction as the Defender pretenders and they were ahead of us....imagine that! Most would be fooled. [bigrolf]

[scarry]

This was the Holden approach - let the owners be part of the development team.

Land Rover has also been doing that for 70 + yrs.

But what they didn't do is listen to their customers,big mistake.

[one_iota]

Land Rover has also been doing that for 70 + yrs.

But what they didn't do is listen to their customers,big mistake.

When I worked for Thiess that was the story told.

[V8Ian]

When I worked for Thiess that was the story told.
Apparently big Les himself had input into how the Cruiser was developed.

[scarry]

Apparently big Les himself had input into how the Cruiser was developed.

They still do it today,the new 70 series models were tested in Japan,and Aus,no where else.

The LC300 was tested in Aus for over 4 yrs before it was released,using LC200 bodies with 300 running gear,etc.

[Arapiles]

It's hard to understand how a vehicle designed from scratch, with a clean sheet of paper, to be sold globally, so badly stuffed up the driving position for RHD vehicles.

[Arapiles]

Good review by Sam who has owned classic defenders.

"Expensive for a utility vehicle".

Once they have delivered the ones they have orders for I really do think they'll struggle. I spoke to the dealer last week and said "sorry.. it's too expensive for me now". He kinda nodded and said he thought they had gone too hard with the price rises. Yup. They had had like three price rises before the first cars were even here...

I ran through my specs again the other week. Trialmaster in white with basically the only options being a bull bar and sliders was nudging 140k. So it's easy to see how you would get to 150k. IMHO if they had kept to their initial prices which was basically a small premium over a 76 series they would have sold in plausibly tens of thousands.

Apparently there are a number of cars available from cancelled orders in stock. I reckon by mid next year it's going to be interesting. Will they be able to get by with tiny volumes or will they reduce prices?


https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2024-ineos-grenadier-review-australian-first-drive/

Yes, so roughly a 40 to 50% increase in price over what was being touted last year.

[one_iota]

Apparently big Les himself had input into how the Cruiser was developed.

"In 1958, Sir Leslie Thiess was the first person to import the Toyota LandCruiser to Australia. He put 13 of the cars to use on the Snowy Mountains Scheme, and over the next 20 years the 4WDs were used on a range of mining and construction projects, including the massive Mt Newman Mine in Western Australia. In February 1961, Thiess (Sales) Pty Ltd was appointed sole importer of Toyota automotive products for Australia and Papua New Guinea. Shortly afterwards, Thiess began to import Toyota sedans and utilities to supplement the LandCruisers."

If you have a spare 20 minutes you can watch the movie!


Toyota In Australia - Thiess (https://thiess.com/news/general/toyota-in-australia)

[Tombie]

They still do it today,the new 70 series models were tested in Japan,and Aus,no where else.

The LC300 was tested in Aus for over 4 yrs before it was released,using LC200 bodies with 300 running gear,etc.

And an oil tank on a trailer behind??

Seems they’re enjoying eating their own lubricant.

[cjc_td5]

Good review by Sam who has owned classic defenders.

"Expensive for a utility vehicle".

Once they have delivered the ones they have orders for I really do think they'll struggle. I spoke to the dealer last week and said "sorry.. it's too expensive for me now". He kinda nodded and said he thought they had gone too hard with the price rises. Yup. They had had like three price rises before the first cars were even here...

I ran through my specs again the other week. Trialmaster in white with basically the only options being a bull bar and sliders was nudging 140k. So it's easy to see how you would get to 150k. IMHO if they had kept to their initial prices which was basically a small premium over a 76 series they would have sold in plausibly tens of thousands.

Apparently there are a number of cars available from cancelled orders in stock. I reckon by mid next year it's going to be interesting. Will they be able to get by with tiny volumes or will they reduce prices?


https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2024-ineos-grenadier-review-australian-first-drive/There's getting to be a reasonable selection on carsales now, for $115k or so with only delivery kms. If serious, I'd head this way and save a bundle of cash and time over a new order.

[scarry]

And an oil tank on a trailer behind??

Seems they’re enjoying eating their own lubricant.

LC300?

Old news and an old non issue,most used none,some used some while running in.

Another storm in a tea cup,lots of click bait.

A mate of mine is an Indi,services heaps of them,is yet to have one in using oil.

EDIT more here,lots of old posts,so the issue has probably been sorted by the manufacturer.For those that have FB.

Log in to Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/331415907329034/search?q=oil%20consumption)

[V8Ian]

At least Toyota provided oil, to the cars needing it, until the issue was sorted.

[Tombie]

They actually specify it’s occurring on 300s doing regular stop/start driving and especially those working hard (towing etc) and it’s up to 1.7l between services.

Toyotas own documentation states this is “normal”.

And that lovely Hot V config will be interesting to see what it cooks after a few kilometres are racked up. Conduit crumbles on conventional engines. No historic version of a hot V engine has proven long term reliable.

[shack]

And that lovely Hot V config will be interesting to see what it cooks after a few kilometres are racked up.

There was one in Wilcannia the other day with a caravan on, bonnet up.. Wondering how hot that vee was at the time..

Fairly by the looks of it.

[scarry]

At least Toyota provided oil, to the cars needing it, until the issue was sorted.

And good to see the manufacturer has sorted the issue.

In fact on the 300 series forum,i am yet to see a complaint about oil usage for 4 or 5 months,whether towing or not.There were very few complaints anyway,all early on.

And some drag blocks of flats around all day every day,right on the vehicles max GCM,often upgraded.

As for the Hot V,some are bashing away at that,we will have to see how they go,but at least they haven't had any major issues so far such as......crank failures[bigrolf]

Cadogan had a good bash at it about 12 months ago,and has since gone very quiet on the subject.As we all know,he will bash away at anything,mainly for self promotion,his pet hates being Land Rover and Toyota[bighmmm]

[123rover50]

There was one in Wilcannia the other day with a caravan on, bonnet up.. Wondering how hot that vee was at the time..

Fairly by the looks of it.

What model Grenadier was it?

[shack]

What model Grenadier was it?Only the 300 series has the "hot Vee".

I don't the any engines in the Grenadier are a "Vee".

[V8Ian]

Are they not BMW powered?

[Xtreme]

Are they not BMW powered?
IIRC they use either the Beemer 3 litre straight six in petrol or diesel.

[scarry]

No historic version of a hot V engine has proven long term reliable.

As i know F all about the history of hot Vs,i did a bit of research.
Sure BMW had many issues,as they have had with other engines.
Some others seem to have used them successfully.

Anyway,the proof will be how the 300s are going in about 5 to 10yrs time.


What Is A Hot V Turbo Engine Layout And What Benefits Does It Have? | News | CarThrottle (https://www.carthrottle.com/news/what-hot-v-turbo-engine-layout-and-what-benefits-does-it-have)

Hot Vee engines explained - Outback Travel Australia (https://outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-tech-torque/hot-vee-engines-explained/)

[simonmelb]

The Merc OM642 is of course a hot V, as used by the Australian defence forces in the G300 professional in its detuned form.

Quick google seems to indicate its a reliable donk except when in lots of low load stop start driving.

Maybe the G300 professional has the vent in the bonnet just above the turbo to improve reliability by allowing the heat to escape?

[Arapiles]

[tonguewink]
There was one in Wilcannia the other day with a caravan on, bonnet up.. Wondering how hot that vee was at the time..

Fairly by the looks of it.

Was this an LC300 or a Grenadier?

[scarry]

The Merc OM642 is of course a hot V, as used by the Australian defence forces in the G300 professional in its detuned form.

Quick google seems to indicate its a reliable donk except when in lots of low load stop start driving.

Maybe the G300 professional has the vent in the bonnet just above the turbo to improve reliability by allowing the heat to escape?

Apparently the Ford power stroke is also a hot V,been around for decades,no issues due to the hot V.
First diesel with this design.

Surely if Ford can do it,Toyota can do it better...[bigrolf][bighmmm]
Their engines(Toyota) have always been pretty bullet proof.