Ineos Grenadier, do you reckon it'll take off?

[prelude]

for the next twenty years or so, Landrovers and Rangerovers were the only profitable products of the Leyland conglomerate, with any improvements hamstrung by the need for profits to prop up Leyland. As the ties loosened with the collapse of most of Leyland, Rover (now changing to Landrover) again sought the market that had saved the company in 1930, Rangerover having moved up market, by introducing the Discovery, which was successful in "saving the company" for another twenty years. But now after being shifted from Leyland to BMW to Ford to Tata, it effectively lost the utility market that they arguably never wanted, despite dominating it successfully and profitably for over forty years (a bit less in Australia).

In this brief history tour I miss the involvement of Honda with rover in the 90's (started in the 80's even?) I have always wondered what would/could have happened to landrover specifically if that marriage was more successful and Honda would have put their japanese tech and quality into a defender or range rover. I am pretty sure some damn reliable cars would have been produced, still rolling around today.

Alas, that was not to be and ineos had to be born so many years later. Here is hoping that indeed the ineos will live up to its promises and it shortcomings may be dealt with swiftly...

-P

[JDNSW]

In this brief history tour I miss the involvement of Honda with rover in the 90's (started in the 80's even?) I have always wondered what would/could have happened to landrover specifically if that marriage was more successful and Honda would have put their japanese tech and quality into a defender or range rover. I am pretty sure some damn reliable cars would have been produced, still rolling around today.

Alas, that was not to be and ineos had to be born so many years later. Here is hoping that indeed the ineos will live up to its promises and it shortcomings may be dealt with swiftly...

-P

As far as i am aware, Honda had no involvement at all with Landrover/Rangerover, which in the period you are talking about remained the one profitable part of Leyland, which was split in 1984 into Austin Rover and Freight Rover (including Land Rover), later renamed to Land Rover, after the truck and bus bit was split off.

[scarry]

They did a bit of rebadging from memorey,see below.
Like many other brands have done over the years
I googled it to check the years,looks like early '90's

'In foreign markets, however, Honda had a different idea: They borrowed the first-generation Land Rover Discovery, changed the badging and sold it as the Honda Crossroad. Yes, you’ve read that right: The Discovery was sold in some places as a Honda. Really. There was a time, in New Zealand and Japan, when you could walk into a Honda dealer and walk out driving a brand-new Land Rover.

Needless to say, we suspect it didn’t offer traditional Honda reliability."

[grey_ghost]

As far as i am aware, Honda had no involvement at all with Landrover/Rangerover, which in the period you are talking about remained the one profitable part of Leyland, which was split in 1984 into Austin Rover and Freight Rover (including Land Rover), later renamed to Land Rover, after the truck and bus bit was split off.

There was some model sharing between Honda and Land Rover but I think that it was simply re-bading.

Honda released the “Honda Crossroad” 1993-1998, which was in fact simply a rebadge Land Rover Discovery 1. It was the first (and possibly only) Honda vehicle (to date) to be sold with a V8 engine…

From memory Rover 800 sedans used Honda engines in the 90’s. And the Rover 200 was a Honda Concerto…

Cheers,
GG

[Tote]

I had a play with the configurator yesterday and was pleasantly surprised to be able to build a Grenadier with everything I wanted for just shy of 100K. That was with diff locks and a leather interior. Looking forward to the release of the dual cab, however that would lead me to a most unpleasant conundrum - sell the 130 to finance a new grenadier or keep it for as long as it still runs, which realistically is as long as I'm prepared to keep rebuilding it......

Regards,
Tote

[spudfan]

I had a play with the configurator yesterday and was pleasantly surprised to be able to build a Grenadier with everything I wanted for just shy of 100K. That was with diff locks and a leather interior. Looking forward to the release of the dual cab, however that would lead me to a most unpleasant conundrum - sell the 130 to finance a new grenadier or keep it for as long as it still runs, which realistically is as long as I'm prepared to keep rebuilding it......

Regards,
Tote

They do say that "Practice makes perfect...."

[350RRC]

They did a bit of rebadging from memorey,see below.
Like many other brands have done over the years
I googled it to check the years,looks like early '90's

'In foreign markets, however, Honda had a different idea: They borrowed the first-generation Land Rover Discovery, changed the badging and sold it as the Honda Crossroad. Yes, you’ve read that right: The Discovery was sold in some places as a Honda. Really. There was a time, in New Zealand and Japan, when you could walk into a Honda dealer and walk out driving a brand-new Land Rover.

Needless to say, we suspect it didn’t offer traditional Honda reliability."

I knew someone who owned a new Rover Quintet in the 90's, which was a re-badged Honda.

He leaked money but the 'Rover' didn't leak oil. Was kinda like the original Accord.

DL

[prelude]

As far as i am aware, Honda had no involvement at all with Landrover/Rangerover, which in the period you are talking about remained the one profitable part of Leyland, which was split in 1984 into Austin Rover and Freight Rover (including Land Rover), later renamed to Land Rover, after the truck and bus bit was split off.

As mentioned by others, indeed there disco 1 was sold as a Honda...
Also, the rover 600 is a honda accord, the rover 400 was a civic, the 200 was indeed a concerto. The 800 was the honda legend, known in the us as the acura rl 3.5. The triumph acclaim i believe? was also honda based. Most of the 90's rovers were more reliable for it. With the exception of the valeo parts [bighmmm]

-P

[JDNSW]

Yes, i was aware of the D1 selling as a Honda, but I do not believe there was any technical involvement either way except for badges on Landrover products (as opposed to Rover cars).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So I did a trip in June in our defender. Over to WA and back again from roughly Ularu. Like 3500k of driving. With five people in the car. The smallest of which was the wife at 175. Kids and hangers on are all now north of 180.

I've had a great time with this car. It's occurred to me that I love driving it off road, but the trip to the off road is cracking me. It was horrific being needled in the back through the seat by knees.

I'm eagerly awaiting the Grenadier. I'm in no rush - happy to see how they go for a couple of years but I think I'm running out of options.

[spudfan]

Well things are finally moving. The latest email says that they have started production.....

"A landmark moment. Another major milestone. And music to all our ears. We’ve started series production of our rugged 4X4.

That’s right. Grenadiers are now rolling off the production line at our facility, in Hambach. All thanks to the hard work and dedication of the INEOS Automotive team, our development partners, and our suppliers – plus your continued belief in and support of the project, of course.

It’s been quite the journey since we started out in 2017. Now we’re one step closer to getting Grenadiers out into the world. We can’t wait."

[spudfan]

Talk of the hydrogen powered Grenadier here, last paragraph
"Ineos Automotive has one more important task before the end of the year. The automaker will begin on- and off-road testing of the Grenadier Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) Concept with a hydrogen fuel cell powertrain. We will hopefully learn more about it in the coming weeks."
From this article
Ineos Grenadier Now Officially In Production, Deliveries Start In December (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-grenadier-now-officially-in-production-deliveries-start-in-december/ar-AA138Eoj?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=95c4eac45e4843638f5297a2f2a592e9)

[simonmelb]

Woops will repost

[cripesamighty]

LR Time driving the Grenadier review

Ineos Grenadier Test Drive - Behind the Steering Wheel - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzCKIggllps)

[spudfan]

Just a couple of things. The wife in the video seemed very impressed with the hand brake lever while the husband was impressed that the vehicle came with a jack. He stated that he was impressed with the quality of the tool kit. Land Rover used to give you a basic toolkit but they stopped doing that.
The husband did not seem particularly familiar with the transfer lever but was impressed that it was a manual system. Does the Discovery not have a transfer lever?
Anyway I enjoyed it even if the off road drive was very tame and I suspect did not tax the abilities of the vehicle

[ozscott]

Just a couple of things. The wife in the video seemed very impressed with the hand brake lever while the husband was impressed that the vehicle came with a jack. He stated that he was impressed with the quality of the tool kit. Land Rover used to give you a basic toolkit but they stopped doing that.
The husband did not seem particularly familiar with the transfer lever but was impressed that it was a manual system. Does the Discovery not have a transfer lever?
Anyway I enjoyed it even if the off road drive was very tame and I suspect did not tax the abilities of the vehicleSounded like a lady well versed in the dreaded e-handbrake sported by d3/d4 etc. Cheers

[RANDLOVER]

.....................
The husband did not seem particularly familiar with the transfer lever but was impressed that it was a manual system. Does the Discovery not have a transfer lever?...........

D1's and some D2's had a transfer case lever, D3's and D4's like LR Time drive, have an electronic switch for low range and no locking lever as the centre diff is electronically controlled as well.

[TonyC]

D1's and some D2's had a transfer case lever

All D2s have a transfer lever, some only have hi/low, some have hi/low and diff lock.

Tony

[ozscott]

All D2s have a transfer lever, some only have hi/low, some have hi/low and diff lock.

TonyYep and from memory the D1 was lever from stick shifter and D2 is cable from stick shifter. Cheers

[Tombie]

Interestingly I wonder if it will be saleable in Aus states where compulsory safety systems are now in place.

The Grenadier lacks several of these.

[simonmelb]

I seem to recall Ineos had the vehicle classified as Goods Carrying NB (GVM over 3.5 Tonnes) - and so would be exempt from the requirements to have ESC and BAS?


Interestingly I wonder if it will be saleable in Aus states where compulsory safety systems are now in place.

The Grenadier lacks several of these.

[Deefa]

Well my Defender has not lasted until the Grenadier arrives. The Td 5 engine seized due to a "series of unfortunate events" I have now embarked on fitting a M57 BMW turbo diesel and 6 speed auto. As well as upgrading a few other things on the old girl. Probably spending 15 k on her to do the work (all done by myself) The dilemma is now, do I justify 100k for a grenadier when I will have a vastly improved (but not new) Defender? Debating whether to cancel the order and get back 5 k towards the Defender project. Another way is moving on the wife's 11 year old Rangie sport and giving her the Grenadier as a shopping car.[bighmmm] Decisions decisions..... ...

[TonyC]

Well my Defender has not lasted until the Grenadier arrives. The Td 5 engine seized due to a "series of unfortunate events" I have now embarked on fitting a M57 BMW turbo diesel and 6 speed auto. As well as upgrading a few other things on the old girl. Probably spending 15 k on her to do the work (all done by myself) The dilemma is now, do I justify 100k for a grenadier when I will have a vastly improved (but not new) Defender? Debating whether to cancel the order and get back 5 k towards the Defender project. Another way is moving on the wife's 11 year old Rangie sport and giving her the Grenadier as a shopping car.[bighmmm] Decisions decisions..... ...

Sorry to hear about the TD5.

Please start a thread detailing the conversion.

I'm sure plenty of people here would be keen to follow your progress.

Why have you decided to us the 6 speed and not the 8?

Tony

[Deefa]

Yes I'll start a thread separately. I've already got the engine and transmission in the vehicle connected up to the transfer case. The reason that I didn't go 8 speed is that I bought a compete BMW X5 . Buying an 8 speed is out of budget. It's not a cheap conversion. I see some guys spending 30 K and still having a used engine in a 20 year old car. I think the conversion side will cost about 10 K the 5 K is upgrades to the vehicle. I have spent 8 K already and I bought the donor vehicle embarrassingly cheap.

[rar110]

Well my Defender has not lasted until the Grenadier arrives. The Td 5 engine seized due to a "series of unfortunate events" I have now embarked on fitting a M57 BMW turbo diesel and 6 speed auto. As well as upgrading a few other things on the old girl. Probably spending 15 k on her to do the work (all done by myself) The dilemma is now, do I justify 100k for a grenadier when I will have a vastly improved (but not new) Defender? Debating whether to cancel the order and get back 5 k towards the Defender project. Another way is moving on the wife's 11 year old Rangie sport and giving her the Grenadier as a shopping car.[bighmmm] Decisions decisions..... ...

I’d like to see a build thread on that.

[spudfan]

Just checking the Ineos Grenadier site and I noticed that the official figures for fuel consumption. They are, just over 25 MPG for the diesel and just over 19 MPG for the petrol. I thought that 25 MPG for the diesel to be a bit on the low side. I suppose this is down to the substantial nature of the parts and the automatic gear box. I am not griping about it but it is just an observation. If I bought one I would accept it and live with it.

[Tote]

In comparison my puma 130 gets up to 15l/100KM (18MPG) depending on how fast I go and what load is on the back, I reckon I'd be happy with 25 MPG. The cost of driving a brick at the legal limit I guess.

Regards,
Tote

[DieselDan]

Have just been reading that the Grenadier prices from 2023 are going up by approx $13k! Yikes.
So $98k for the base station wagon and $109.5k for the trailmaster.

[grey_ghost]

It’s not the cheap Defender replacement anymore… Not saying that it’s not a great vehicle - but all those people that said “Ineos can build a cheap, no nonsense Defender replacement” - I hope that they are choking on their weetbix!

[ozscott]

Yep. It's a big ask for a new manufacturer. I think bearing any price hike it worth it not to 1. Be a beta tester and 2. Ensure that they will be around in 5 years time. That is my take anyway. Cheers

[spudfan]

Defender owners have noted from time to time how Land Rover cut corners and used some cheap components. In answer to this Ineos have stated that they would use good quality components and give people a quality vehicle. People have said that they would pay more for a Defender if the components and reliability were better. How much Land Rover would have charged for a Defender with better quality components and better assembly in the factory is anyone's guess. Whether it would be on a par with the Ineos Grenadier price wise is questionable. Land Rover had the vehicle but just needed to up the quality in some areas where as Ineos had to start with a clean sheet and go from there. This entails substantial out lay in capital investment. Land Rover could have killed the Grenadier at it's inception if they had upped their game with the Defender but kept the costs of this improvement at a reasonable level.
Imagine the Defender coming with a galvanised chassis and bulkhead as standard. People would pay for that. Instead of being something Land Rover did not think suited their modern "image" it could have been a true icon for them. Fair enough the majority of people would say "That is a great vehicle. Gives you confidence to go anywhere but at the moment it is not for. I will buy a different Land Rover." The Defender was an advertising department's dream. Readily identifiable so it helped with the brand image. Good, strong, reliable vehicles. So if Ineos gives us the quality we wanted in the Defender it will come at a price. Whether people think it is worth paying for is up to them.

[ozscott]

Spudfan I agree. The big question for me is whether the sum total of the parts come together well as one and then to ensure they are here for the long hall and how they support the vehicle. Once those are nailed down I would be keen. Cheers

[chuck]

Just priced up a well specced Grenadier - $129,500 on road in Victoria

Lot of money for an unproven vehicle that could still require more money spent on it.

Makes my 76 look like a bargain.

[scarry]

Makes my 76 look like a bargain.

And has a well proven reputation for reliability,fit and finish, not many others have.Although a sort of antiquated design,leaf springs,etc.

My son has had one for the last couple of years as well,his was a bargain at around $65K,from memory,and is worth something rediculous today.

It replaced his Puma.

[chuck]

Recently moved on my 79 Series.
Would not fit in garage
Dog could not get in easily.

Big difference between 76 & 79

Feels & drives quicker.

Our Newfoundland who sits 950mm tall is comfortable & looks out the windows

Was a bit of mucking around selling one and buying the other but worth it.

Only thing left to do is upgrade the speakers.

Actually finding it really refreshing.

[Hoges]

Spudfan I agree. The big question for me is whether the sum total of the parts come together well as one and then to ensure they are here for the long hall and how they support the vehicle. Once those are nailed down I would be keen. Cheers

....I'll let you know in due course![bigwhistle]

[ramblingboy42]

quote....Lot of money for an unproven vehicle that could still require more money spent on it.

many people here payed that sort of money for 663's when it was released "unproven"....

[scarry]

quote....Lot of money for an unproven vehicle that could still require more money spent on it.

many people here payed that sort of money for 663's when it was released "unproven"....

Huge difference,one vehicle produced by a company has been around for 70yrs,the other about 3,and has yet to sell any vehicles?

[spudfan]

The latest news update features the Grenadier in Africa. Once in the grip of Land Rover but abandoned by Land Rover in recent years.
Grenadier Trails Namibia| Rugged 4X4 In the Wild | INEOS Grenadier (https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/films-and-images/grenadier-trails-namibia?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Grenadier_Trails_namibia)

[one_iota]

The latest news update features the Grenadier in Africa. Once in the grip of Land Rover but abandoned by Land Rover in recent years.
Grenadier Trails Namibia| Rugged 4X4 In the Wild | INEOS Grenadier (https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/films-and-images/grenadier-trails-namibia?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Grenadier_Trails_namibia)

It's certainly a place where you wouldn't/couldn't take one of those new-fangled Defenders:

NEW Land Rover Defender: Off-Road Review In Namibia | Carfection 4K - YouTube (https://youtu.be/CNkb3hAF9R4)

[tonguewink]

[scarry]

Once in the grip of Land Rover but abandoned by Land Rover in recent years

We were in East Africa for a while a couple of years ago.

Anything powered by a 200 or 300TDi,or older,is highly sort after,and the old RR Classic is worth huge money,no matter the condition.

But thats it for LR,you can guess which brand has taken over.

[one_iota]

I guess Toyota is happy to dump its modern old stuff in places that can't afford not to buy them. Australia falls into that category. I can't see the Ineos product displacing Toyotas either. Too much had to be invested in incorporating current European vehicle standards. The Namibia stuff is marketing fluff to make privileged first-world folk think that they still have frontiers to conquer! The locals just need transport.

[spudfan]

He mentions that "they" wanted to change the old Land Rover in 1971. This is not true. Instead of a series 111 the engineers had a completely different direction in mind. The shape was completely different. It could have passed as a Discovery prototype. British Leyland at the time were selling large numbers of the series as it was and did not want to spend money and change it. Some tinkering was done and we got the series 111. The money made from the Land Rover end of things went into the car side of things.
There is an article on this in a Land Rover magazine from some decades ago. I will try to find it and put it up here.

[scarry]

I guess Toyota is happy to dump its modern old stuff in places that can't afford not to buy them. Australia falls into that category. I can't see the Ineos product displacing Toyotas either. Too much had to be invested in incorporating current European vehicle standards. The Namibia stuff is marketing fluff to make privileged first-world folk think that they still have frontiers to conquer! The locals just need transport.

The big vehicle manufacturers,no matter the brand, are able to easily taylor their vehicles to suit a certain market.
They have the most resources,and probably know the vehicle market much better than the smaller brands.
Their aim is to sell vehicles to the masses,nothing else.

Africa is a good example,where the 70's are still sold new with the 6 cylinder diesel,which was dropped here around 15yrs ago.
I did see a couple with the 1VD,when we were there,they had been imported from Aus.

In fact,thinking of LR,things could get a bit rocky in the next few years,with all this push for EV's.
Most of their models do not suit that market.

In my opinion only,i think the Grenadier could struggle as well,time will tell.

[Tins]

Africa is a good example,where the 70's are still sold new with the 6 cylinder diesel,which was dropped here around 15yrs ago.

Some might say at the expense of reliability.


In my opinion only,i think the Grenadier could struggle as well,time will tell.

I agree that it's early days for the Grenadier, but INEOS is a massive company who are good at doing their homework. I won't speculate about the Grenadier's success, but I will hope for it.

[JDNSW]

He mentions that "they" wanted to change the old Land Rover in 1971. This is not true. Instead of a series 111 the engineers had a completely different direction in mind. The shape was completely different. It could have passed as a Discovery prototype. British Leyland at the time were selling large numbers of the series as it was and did not want to spend money and change it. Some tinkering was done and we got the series 111. The money made from the Land Rover end of things went into the car side of things.
There is an article on this in a Land Rover magazine from some decades ago. I will try to find it and put it up here.

In 1971 Rover was in the process of integrating with Leyland. The "New Direction" was called RangeRover", which had just been introduced, and was a completely new direction for the company.

At the same time they recognised that there were a number of needed improvements in the Landrover. However, despite having agreed to the merger in the expectation that there would be the ability to do this sort of thing, all the money they had to develop new designs was taken up by the Rangerover. And even there it was several years before they were ableto put the four door into production.

All that was left for the Landrover was enough for the relatively minor changes to move to the Series 3 - basically an all synchro gearbox and a new instrument panel anda lot of detail changes. What they wanted to do was something like the Defender.

But by the time the Series 3 was introduced, the Landrover was the only profitable line in the entire Leyland Empire. And all the profit was needed to prop up the rest of the empire. Part of the issue would have been "why change it when we are selling all we can make?" And one of the selling points in a number of markets was backward compatibility.

[scarry]

I guess Toyota is happy to dump its modern old stuff in places that can't afford not to buy them..

I cant see Grenadier getting anywhere near this market.

This Secret Dealer Sells White Toyotas That Save The World | Top Gear - YouTube (https://youtu.be/_Z_V5ggUo2Y)

[ozscott]

I cant see Grenadier getting anywhere near this market.

This Secret Dealer Sells White Toyotas That Save The World | Top Gear - YouTube (https://youtu.be/_Z_V5ggUo2Y)Nice video mate. Yes I agree they have the market locked up for commercial. Cheers

[spudfan]

Looks like the Grenadier could be the vehicle to visit out of the way places but will not be affordable to those who live there and could really do with a tough, basic 4x4 vehicle, which to my mind defeats the raison d'etre of the vehicle in the first place. Someone should reinvent the series Land Rover....

[Tins]

Someone should reinvent the series Land Rover....

Toyota would probably say that they have already done that..

INEOS could maybe do it in reverse. If there is enough revenue generated by sales of the mainstream car they could possibly then build a no frills stripped down version for the "third world". They need to make money first.

Toyota's world revenue means they can afford to build the 7x cars we saw in that video from Gibraltar. They could make a per unit loss on those, as basic as they are, and still benefit from the goodwill generated, and play a long game where they will be perfectly placed when those countries want cars with frills. They have practically no competition there, and those cars are something anyone with a few spanners can fix.

The Grenadier hasn't even taken its first steps in a big world. I hope it doesn't give up.

[Tote]

Looks like the Grenadier could be the vehicle to visit out of the way places but will not be affordable to those who live there and could really do with a tough, basic 4x4 vehicle, which to my mind defeats the raison d'etre of the vehicle in the first place. Someone should reinvent the series Land Rover....

This statement piqued my interest so I did a little research....

In 1968:
Series 2 cost $2928
Falcon Sedan, 6 Cyl Manual cost $2752
Toyota Landcruiser $4325

in 2022
Ineos Station Wagon $96,000
Mazda 6 $40,000
Toyota Landcruiser GXL 300 series $100,981

"Tough basic 4wds" have never been comparatively cheap and today we are in a position where the real price of a capable comfortable 4wd is around $100,000 regardless of the brand. There is more choice though, today you could compromise and get a Triton ute for about $50K, an option that was not available in 1968 when a 4WD was a much more specialist vehicle than today, but the "poor people" have never had access to cheap 4wds on the new vehicle market.
Prices taken from Redbook and I have generally tried to be comparable on middle of the range vehicles. Its true that you can get a Land Cruiser 78 series for less than 100K but you can also buy a stripped out Ineos for $84500.

Regards,
Tote

[Tins]

This statement piqued my interest so I did a little research....

In 1968:
Series 2 cost $2928
Falcon Sedan, 6 Cyl Manual cost $2752
Toyota Landcruiser $4325

in 2022
Ineos Station Wagon $96,000
Mazda 6 $40,000
Toyota Landcruiser GXL 300 series $100,981

"Tough basic 4wds" have never been comparatively cheap and today we are in a position where the real price of a capable comfortable 4wd is around $100,000 regardless of the brand. There is more choice though, today you could compromise and get a Triton ute for about $50K, an option that was not available in 1968 when a 4WD was a much more specialist vehicle than today, but the "poor people" have never had access to cheap 4wds on the new vehicle market.
Prices taken from Redbook and I have generally tried to be comparable on middle of the range vehicles. Its true that you can get a Land Cruiser 78 series for less than 100K but you can also buy a stripped out Ineos for $84500.

Regards,
Tote

I wonder what Toyota charges for one of those 7x cars in that garage in Gibraltar.

[Samblers]

Huge difference,one vehicle produced by a company has been around for 70yrs,the other about 3,and has yet to sell any vehicles?

So?

Tesla.

[Tins]

So?

Tesla.

Indeed. Rimac. Rivian also.

[scarry]

So?

Tesla.

Completely different.
Tesla is entering and leading a new market.

Grenadia is trying to squeeze into a market,all ready dominated by others.

Same for Rivian.

[Tins]

.
Tesla is entering and leading a new market.



Not quite. Tesla were not the first EV company. They also began by competing in the luxury car market against BMW, MB and dare I say it Jaguar. They also competed in the performance car market. Also, have you seen the early cars Tesla made? INEOS is far further down the path than Tesla was, and arguably still is. But yes, INEOS is facing stiff opposition. While it cannot rely on the subsidy advantage Tesla has, it does have a whole lot of money behind it.

Time will tell.

[Tombie]

I hope it does well. They’ve given it a good crack at making something people claim to want.

When are we supposed to be seeing them in Oz?

[Tins]

I hope it does well.

So do I.



are we supposed to be seeing them in Oz?

They were talking about it being by the end of this year, but I think we can scrub around that one.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-ineos-grenadier-enters-production/

[prelude]

This statement piqued my interest so I did a little research....

In 1968:
Series 2 cost $2928
Falcon Sedan, 6 Cyl Manual cost $2752
Toyota Landcruiser $4325

in 2022
Ineos Station Wagon $96,000
Mazda 6 $40,000
Toyota Landcruiser GXL 300 series $100,981

"Tough basic 4wds" have never been comparatively cheap and today we are in a position where the real price of a capable comfortable 4wd is around $100,000 regardless of the brand. There is more choice though, today you could compromise and get a Triton ute for about $50K, an option that was not available in 1968 when a 4WD was a much more specialist vehicle than today, but the "poor people" have never had access to cheap 4wds on the new vehicle market.
Prices taken from Redbook and I have generally tried to be comparable on middle of the range vehicles. Its true that you can get a Land Cruiser 78 series for less than 100K but you can also buy a stripped out Ineos for $84500.

Regards,
Tote

Putting this into perspective yet again:

in 2021 prices, according to the rba inflation calculator these cars would cost:

Series 2 cost $38,216
Falcon Sedan, 6 Cyl Manual cost $35,918
Toyota Landcruiser $56,449

That's still a whole lot cheaper than most cars on the market today? So although, yes, a cheap 4x4 probably never existed at least not for us (mahindra did exist in india) they were still a lot cheaper compared to today.

Also, if you look at the last large batches of defenders that were sold to NGO's and the current crop of solely Toyota's at this point they were/are all ROTW spec (rest of the world) and can get away with mounting engines that will never pass any legislation in the western world anymore like the venerable 1hz in the troopy's and what not. The defender had the 300tdi export until almost 2010 I believe? One could argue this reduces costs since no new development has to be made and you can get more money out of the investment it took to develop. One could also argue that keeping that factory running is more overhead, I really don't know.

What I do know however is that the grenadier is not that lucky. They had to build a car that is (barely) meeting current standards. Whether we think them just or not. NGO's and the likes are going to need to be the bread and butter for ineos, or they will have to go the landrover way and make the grenadier a luxury item.

Also, did someone say "tesla" as an example? That company scores even lower than landrover on the reliability surveys so... let's just hope grenadier does not follow that route since there are not enough virtue signaling greenies (or the 4x4 equivalent :) ) to keep ineos afloat.

I really REALLY want(ed?) the grenadier to succeed but as mentioned a long time ago in this thread I had to pull my money, regretfully, since it is not what I need it to be today and I am in doubt if it will be in the future but by God I wish them well and hope they make it!

Cheers,
-P

[chuck]

Yes i hope they do succeed.

Because it is always good to have competition.

Was going to test drive one and evaluate from there.

$12,000 price rise was pretty steep for a car that has not even landed in the country yet.

[Pirate]

I hope it does well. They’ve given it a good crack at making something people claim to want.

When are we supposed to be seeing them in Oz?

I also hope it goes well as I’ll have a contract to sign in a couple of days. A dive into the great unknown😳

my build starts 24 Jan. So expect to see it April/May ish.

[spudfan]

I also hope it goes well as I’ll have a contract to sign in a couple of days. A dive into the great unknown😳

my build starts 24 Jan. So expect to see it April/May ish.
So long as you are happy with it and it does what you want it to do that is all that counts.[thumbsupbig] I look forward to your impressions of the vehicle when you have driven it for a while.

[Deefa]

I also hope it goes well as I’ll have a contract to sign in a couple of days. A dive into the great unknown😳

my build starts 24 Jan. So expect to see it April/May ish.
Interesting, I have a pre order and not had a contract as yet. April/ may was the estimate delivery for mine as well. Going to the test drive day at Mt tamborine in the gold coast hinterland on the 17 th Dec. I'll post a few pictures if anybody is interested.

[Tins]

I'll post a few pictures if anybody is interested.

I think it's safe to say that one or two of us might be[bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I think a point that many miss about the grenadier.. is that while it's an automotive startup it's an extraordinarily well funded one.

Ineos - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineos)

I actually see the biggest threat to the Grenadier will be the death of Jim Ratcliffe whenever that happens. It's clearly his baby. Until then I'd think it's pretty safe..

I've always been keen on one but I'd like to see one in the flesh and see how the bugs go for a bit.

The initial promised price I thought was acceptable at 85ish. And then the actual price at 100 was bleeding for me. And now it's gone up another 14. The price is kind of accelerating away from reality for me.

The local head said that any orders were 12 months from delivery and their costs were going up so fast they were just trying to pick a viable price. It sure is strange times we live in.

[Deefa]

182567Well we finally got to drive the Grenadier on Saturday. This was held at Tambourine Mountain on the Gold Coast hinterland. The off road course was reasonably challenging with ruts and a section there needing Low Range. Unfortunately my wife didnt take photos while we where on the course but got quite a few of the vehicles. They had three there, various specs but all diesel. The Grenadier did drive very well, tyres were down to 30 pounds and soaked up the bumps really well. Low range first is probably not as low as an original Defender but that's only going by feel , I could be wrong. Fit and finish seems quite good but these are still prototypes that will be improved on apparently. Actually they said these cars will be stripped of useful parts and crushed which seems a shame. We could not take photos under the bonnet but all seems neat and tidy. The complexity of modern engines means there are a lot of hoses and wiring etc but there is a reasonable amount of room around the engine. There are a few hang up points underside which is a little disappointing. The rear muffler is low and the front steering damper pretty low as well. Could be different yet on the production models though. The mounts for the rear arms are pretty low as well. Big sway bars and eye shocks as well as eye mounts for the rear arms so I doubt the suspension flex would be fantastic. My wife was worried about the rear spare blocking view of the back when reversing, but it does have a reversing Camera.
It looks good, although I dont love the front end with the insert lights in the grill but I guess thats going to grow on me. The back looks good, square load space which is practical. The other thing i am not keen on is the centre dash screen. Nothing in front of the driver except a small panel with lights. No speedo even. Got to love the centre console and roof console though. Feels like an airplane, very cool.
All in all a very impressive machine that's not perfect, but what is? Optioned up with duel batteries and a few other accessories it would make a great tourer without spending huge coin to set up whats is already provided in this vehicle. 18256618256818256918257018257118257218257318257418 2575182576182577182578182579182580182581

[spudfan]

The dual opening back doors seem to be a popular feature but you have to bear in mind the width between the wheel arches. You are still limited to this width for an interior load unless it is short and can be stored between the wheel arches and the doors. I am sure INEOS are making notes of observations like yours. Whether they can make changes before this model hits the market in light of potential users observations or wait until a series 11 or mark 11 version remains to be seen.
The wheel arches in the INEOS do seem to give more usable interior space than the old Defender but how practical will it be for fitted out for touring in Australia? The boxy wheel arches of the old Defender made it easy to store boxes inside but to do that with the INEOS you would need to "square" off the rounded wheel arches to build items on them. Just an observation and it would not put me off buying one.
Good observations made on the low hanging gear. Not an issue for everyday use but would need to be taken into account as an over lander.
The inside looks frighteningly hitech to me but I suppose that is the road cars are going.
Also, you have better looking knees than me.....

[Deefa]

The dual opening back doors seem to be a popular feature but you have to bear in mind the width between the wheel arches. You are still limited to this width for an interior load unless it is short and can be stored between the wheel arches and the doors. I am sure INEOS are making notes of observations like yours. Whether they can make changes before this model hits the market in light of potential users observations or wait until a series 11 or mark 11 version remains to be seen.
The wheel arches in the INEOS do seem to give more usable interior space than the old Defender but how practical will it be for fitted out for touring in Australia? The boxy wheel arches of the old Defender made it easy to store boxes inside but to do that with the INEOS you would need to "square" off the rounded wheel arches to build items on them. Just an observation and it would not put me off buying one.
Good observations made on the low hanging gear. Not an issue for everyday use but would need to be taken into account as an over lander.
The inside looks frighteningly hitech to me but I suppose that is the road cars are going.
Also, you have better looking knees than me.....

That is my wife's knees, mine are not so good , ha ha.

[Hoges]

The dual opening back doors seem to be a popular feature but you have to bear in mind the width between the wheel arches. You are still limited to this width for an interior load unless it is short and can be stored between the wheel arches and the doors. I am sure INEOS are making notes of observations like yours. Whether they can make changes before this model hits the market in light of potential users observations or wait until a series 11 or mark 11 version remains to be seen.
The wheel arches in the INEOS do seem to give more usable interior space than the old Defender but how practical will it be for fitted out for touring in Australia? The boxy wheel arches of the old Defender made it easy to store boxes inside but to do that with the INEOS you would need to "square" off the rounded wheel arches to build items on them. Just an observation and it would not put me off buying one.
Good observations made on the low hanging gear. Not an issue for everyday use but would need to be taken into account as an over lander.
The inside looks frighteningly hitech to me but I suppose that is the road cars are going.
Also, you have better looking knees than me.....

There's been a lot of discussion on theineosforum.com regarding the bloated wheel arch cover on the RHS. Both optional BMW engines are Eurospec 6 so it's to accommodate both the fuel filler and the "AdBlue" filler for the diesel version. There's just over a metre space at floor level between the bases of the respective wheel arch covers.
The deletion of the 15L "Ad Blue" tank requirement for the petrol version means that it gets a 100L fuel tank vs the 90L tank for the diesel.

The static display vehicle with the leather interior was the "Fieldmaster" version with road biased Bridgestone A/T tyres on alloy rims. The two steel wheel/KO2 A/T shod vehicles for test drives were base level "Belstaff" station wagons with various mods...they're still undertaking engineering evaluations. They now have 18 vehicles registered in Australia for post production evaluation....

The switches overhead and on the dash console are rugged and "tactile" designed to be able to be operated on cold days while wearing gloves.... The overhead switches are basically for offroad and are grouped accordingly.

The headlights are park/low beam/high beam LED. The two inboard lights are high power long distance LED pencil beam driving lights activated by one of the overhead switches.

The 8sp "heavy duty modified" (that's what they said! :-)) ZF box with the low range transfer case and centre diff locked ...it felt almost unstoppable with the engine barely revving above 1300rpm (max torque at 1250rpm) and seemed to crawl over the sizeable ruts and bumps....
Apparently the 1000 units allocated to Australia for the first year sold out quickly...70% diesel and 70% Trialmaster version with triple diff locks/K02 tyres, HD wiring, extra battery etc...
I'll let you know [thumbsupbig]

[Tins]

Apparently the 1000 units allocated to Australia for the first year sold out quickly...

1000?? I'll bet they did.

[ramblingboy42]

I like your dog.

[prelude]

182567Well we finally got to drive the Grenadier on Saturday. This was held at Tambourine Mountain on the Gold Coast hinterland. The off road course was reasonably challenging with ruts and a section there needing Low Range. Unfortunately my wife didnt take photos while we where on the course but got quite a few of the vehicles. They had three there, various specs but all diesel. The Grenadier did drive very well, tyres were down to 30 pounds and soaked up the bumps really well. Low range first is probably not as low as an original Defender but that's only going by feel , I could be wrong. Fit and finish seems quite good but these are still prototypes that will be improved on apparently. Actually they said these cars will be stripped of useful parts and crushed which seems a shame. We could not take photos under the bonnet but all seems neat and tidy. The complexity of modern engines means there are a lot of hoses and wiring etc but there is a reasonable amount of room around the engine. There are a few hang up points underside which is a little disappointing. The rear muffler is low and the front steering damper pretty low as well. Could be different yet on the production models though. The mounts for the rear arms are pretty low as well. Big sway bars and eye shocks as well as eye mounts for the rear arms so I doubt the suspension flex would be fantastic. My wife was worried about the rear spare blocking view of the back when reversing, but it does have a reversing Camera.
It looks good, although I dont love the front end with the insert lights in the grill but I guess thats going to grow on me. The back looks good, square load space which is practical. The other thing i am not keen on is the centre dash screen. Nothing in front of the driver except a small panel with lights. No speedo even. Got to love the centre console and roof console though. Feels like an airplane, very cool.
All in all a very impressive machine that's not perfect, but what is? Optioned up with duel batteries and a few other accessories it would make a great tourer without spending huge coin to set up whats is already provided in this vehicle. 18256618256818256918257018257118257218257318257418 2575182576182577182578182579182580182581

So, how did you feel about that huge lump where the DPF is in RHD vehicles in terms of driving position? I read lots of comments about the rear space, rightfully so, but how about the most important position in the car :) the drivers seat!

Cheers,
-P

[spudfan]

Looking at this photo I do not think there would be room for a clutch pedal if they decide to do a manual version.

[Tins]

Looking at this photo I do not think there would be room for a clutch pedal if they decide to do a manual version.

Don't see why not. FIAT managed it back in the 60s, although it did put a whole new meaning into "left foot braking".

[Hoges]

So, how did you feel about that huge lump where the DPF is in RHD vehicles in terms of driving position? I read lots of comments about the rear space, rightfully so, but how about the most important position in the car :) the drivers seat!

Cheers,
-P

I'm about 175cm tall and the driving position was fine. But that was on a rough track at low speed, I don't know what a couple of hours on a highway would do. We were there early Friday afternoon....there were a couple of other chaps there who were long time Defender owners. One of them was probably around 190+cm . He volunteered that he found the the driving position comfortable and no problem with the LH footrest ...he might even be on this forum [bigsmile1]..I forgot to inquire ...

EDIT: FWIW here's a recent test report on the Grenadier from the Expedition Portal
Ineos Grenadier :: Exclusive First Overland Test (Prototype) - Expedition Portal (https://expeditionportal.com/ineos-grenadier-exclusive-first-overland-test-prototype/)

[spudfan]

Don't see why not. FIAT managed it back in the 60s, although it did put a whole new meaning into "left foot braking".
Looking at this photo, you could be right.

[Tombie]

Point is moot. There will never be a manual version.

[prelude]

Indeed. Due to emissions and such the automatic was needed to get the engine/gearbox combo to JUST get through the emissions laws of the more stringent countries. As I mentioned before the "carbon tax" on this thing in my country is excessive. Going forward we could see the output of the car drop over the years even and it's only a matter of time before the straight 6 will be replaced. A manual is not going to make it, not with the current engine anyway.

I reckon that the two straight sixes in the v1 model are possible the best combo they will have for quite some time to come.

-P

[Deefa]

So, how did you feel about that huge lump where the DPF is in RHD vehicles in terms of driving position? I read lots of comments about the rear space, rightfully so, but how about the most important position in the car :) the drivers seat!

Cheers,
-P

I found it was fine. Just a footrest for the side not doing any work in an auto.

As I mentioned probably the thing I dislike the most in the whole vehicle is the fact that there are no instruments in front of the driver. Not a deal breaker but a major disappointment for me. I have driven an old Nissan Xtrail (not mine!) with similar setups and they are dangerous. These are just prototypes, but I doubt that's going to change.

[123rover50]

I found it was fine. Just a footrest for the side not doing any work in an auto.

As I mentioned probably the thing I dislike the most in the whole vehicle is the fact that there are no instruments in front of the driver. Not a deal breaker but a major disappointment for me. I have driven an old Nissan Xtrail (not mine!) with similar setups and they are dangerous. These are just prototypes, but I doubt that's going to change.

Hey Brian. Old Land Rovers did not have instruments in front of the driver either[wink11][wink11][bigsmile]
Keith

[Tins]

Hey Brian. Old Land Rovers did not have instruments in front of the driver either[wink11][wink11][bigsmile]
Keith

Neither do old Minis.

[JDNSW]

Or a lot of other old cars for that matter.

[Tombie]

I found it was fine. Just a footrest for the side not doing any work in an auto.

As I mentioned probably the thing I dislike the most in the whole vehicle is the fact that there are no instruments in front of the driver. Not a deal breaker but a major disappointment for me. I have driven an old Nissan Xtrail (not mine!) with similar setups and they are dangerous. These are just prototypes, but I doubt that's going to change.

Dangerous? Or just not within your comfort zone?

The vehicle has HUD for speed, and a glance in any direction covers the rest. After all mirrors arent direcrtly in line of the drivers sight either, we need to glance at them too

[Tins]

Dangerous? Or just not within your comfort zone?



Good question. Given that no two carmakers put dials etc in the same location isn't it just a matter of getting used to it?

[Homestar]

I’ve had an X trail and it takes a couple of weeks to get used to the gauge position then it becomes second nature - kind of like driving a vehicle with the indicators on the opposite side. [emoji4]

[Deefa]

Hey Brian. Old Land Rovers did not have instruments in front of the driver either[wink11][wink11][bigsmile]
Keith

Yes, true enough Keith. Just have to get used to it. Its a first world problem as they say.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So the Ineos dealer for Brisbane is like 2k from me. I went down there yesterday and checked them out. Turns out the people running it have quite an established reputation (This is a positive). Despite the name these are not caravan people trying to sell cars.

They've got a big new premises and are still building. They may outgrow it but it looks pretty good. I suspect the biggest problem they are going to have is getting cars to sell.

Personally I'm really struggling. Our defender at 18 is going great but we are really struggling with the size of it. Having to fit five people in in, 4 of whom are over 6 foot it's really not at all pleasant. But the car has so much history with us, and is going as well as ever.

Anyway the Grenadier prototype will be there for a week from the 11th. Will be keen to have a look.

[Tins]

So the Ineos dealer for Brisbane is like 2k from me. I went down there yesterday and checked them out. Turns out the people running it have quite an established reputation (This is a positive). Despite the name these are not caravan people trying to sell cars.

They've got a big new premises and are still building. They may outgrow it but it looks pretty good. I suspect the biggest problem they are going to have is getting cars to sell.

Personally I'm really struggling. Our defender at 18 is going great but we are really struggling with the size of it. Having to fit five people in in, 4 of whom are over 6 foot it's really not at all pleasant. But the car has so much history with us, and is going as well as ever.

Anyway the Grenadier prototype will be there for a week from the 11th. Will be keen to have a look.

The three within striking distance of me are all very well established multi franchise operations. One caters for Haval and LDV, up through Suzuki and Nissan, and on to Alpine! Another has an extraordinary range, including Audi and LR alongside Isuzu and a host of others. These are not fly by night mobs either. I guess all that Ineos money counts for something.

[jon3950]

Dangerous? Or just not within your comfort zone?

Dangererous? Possibly. Comfort zone, or muscle memory?

Anything that requires you to think about how to react can delay that reaction, possibly creating a more dangerous situation.

If the Grenadier was the only vehicle you drove then you would probably train yourself in time to just look to the left. However for most of us, we drive several vehicles and every time we change vehicle we would need to think about where to look, meaning eyes are off the road for longer.

Old Minis and Land Rovers had the instruments in the centre to simplify production, but there’s a reason new Minis and Land Rovers have them in front of the driver. It may sound trivial, but I just don’t see any upside to putting them in the centre when there is a potential to increase risk. Just poor HMI design.

[ozscott]

I am not a fan of not having the speedo in the centre. It is counter-intuitive and an uncessary distraction from the straight ahead field of view. I hope they correct a few things with the second version (if that ever debuts) and there are some other things too. There is some real fan boy stuff on the Ineos Friendface pages about it being close to "perfect" now. I don't subscribe to that thinking at all. I think it likely that the vehicle will be unique in a very good way though. There are compromises that should be addressed, hopefully, if a second iteration comes along. Cheers

[Hoges]

I am not a fan of having the speedo in the centre. It is counter-intuitive and an uncessary distraction from the straight ahead field of view. I hope they correct a few things with the second version (if that ever debuts) and there are some other things too. There is some real fan boy stuff on the Ineos Friendface pages about it being close to "perfect" now. I don't subscribe to that thinking at all. I think it likely that the vehicle will be unique in a very good way though. There are compromises that should be addressed, hopefully, if a second iteration comes along. Cheers

Agree!

By contrast to comments I've read elsewhere about the various Ineos Facebook groups, the views and tone on the multinational and truly multicultural The Grenadier Forum (http://www.theineosforum.com) are are far more considered and mature... somewhat akin to this forum[thumbsupbig]. The "one model" Ineos forum reminds me very much of the largely collaborative nature long ago of the original Rangerovers.net forum when there was just the Classic and the P38!

As with any new vehicle, there are inevitable compromises required, including the centre position of the speedo, RHD footrest position etc. All in all, most ineosforum posters seem to have taken a philosophical approach...e.g. install an aftermarket HUD which has a dial as well as digital speedo readout.

The Grenadier does have a second small rectangular screen within the driver's straight ahead view, but it is filled with illuminated icons and assorted "idiot lights"...

[ozscott]

Agree!

By contrast to comments I've read elsewhere about the various Ineos Facebook groups, the views and tone on the multinational and truly multicultural The Grenadier Forum (http://www.theineosforum.com) are are far more considered and mature... somewhat akin to this forum[thumbsupbig]. The "one model" Ineos forum reminds me very much of the largely collaborative nature long ago of the original Rangerovers.net forum when there was just the Classic and the P38!

As with any new vehicle, there are inevitable compromises required, including the centre position of the speedo, RHD footrest position etc. All in all, most ineosforum posters seem to have taken a philosophical approach...e.g. install an aftermarket HUD which has a dial as well as digital speedo readout.

The Grenadier does have a second small rectangular screen within the driver's straight ahead view, but it is filled with illuminated icons and assorted "idiot lights"...Just saw I had left a second "not" out of my post [emoji1787]. Fixed now. I am not a fan of a dash that requires looking to the left to see a critical gauge. I like my speedo and tacho front and centre. Cheers

[Deefa]

Agreed with all of the comments here. I have been researching the various brands of digital dashes available and some of these would probably work quite well. For relatively small cost one can mount a dash that communicates to the OBD port and displays everything you would need. I'm quite sure its not that easy though! Already thinking of modifying it even before getting it, in the best tradition of Land Rover owners.

182885

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The local dealer - Ignition at Stafford has one there for inspection (no drives). It's one of the prototypes but it's a later prototype so was built at the factory off their tools. Looked fairly well finished.

Anyway.. had a quick look around it. From the exterior side.. in the flesh it has shorter front and rear over hangs than my 110. That surprised me. It looks a bit lower but it probably isn't in reality. I'm sure with a lift it will be fine. I had a quick look underneath. It's a bit more like a D2 in that the body comes down over the outside of the chassis rail. I can't see anyone magically finding a spot for significant extra fuel.

On the interior.. to be expected .. massive improvement over the defender. Much more comfortable. The rear cargo bay I don't think is anywhere near as deep as the 110 but it has much better access with the doors and less intrusion from the wheel wells.

I haven't put any money down yet but will take the family down for a good look over it next week. Will see what they say. Apparently there will be five production demos there in February available for driving. I think if it drives as well as it looks will probably order one. I'm not in any rush as there are a few desert crossings this year and I'm not sure I've got time to set a car up before them so next year would be fine with me.

[ozscott]

The local dealer - Ignition at Stafford has one there for inspection (no drives). It's one of the prototypes but it's a later prototype so was built at the factory off their tools. Looked fairly well finished.

Anyway.. had a quick look around it. From the exterior side.. in the flesh it has shorter front and rear over hangs than my 110. That surprised me. It looks a bit lower but it probably isn't in reality. I'm sure with a lift it will be fine. I had a quick look underneath. It's a bit more like a D2 in that the body comes down over the outside of the chassis rail. I can't see anyone magically finding a spot for significant extra fuel.

On the interior.. to be expected .. massive improvement over the defender. Much more comfortable. The rear cargo bay I don't think is anywhere near as deep as the 110 but it has much better access with the doors and less intrusion from the wheel wells.

I haven't put any money down yet but will take the family down for a good look over it next week. Will see what they say. Apparently there will be five production demos there in February available for driving. I think if it drives as well as it looks will probably order one. I'm not in any rush as there are a few desert crossings this year and I'm not sure I've got time to set a car up before them so next year would be fine with me.An advantage the Ineos has over any other new vehicle on the market is the roof load limit. From memory it is 200kg and I doubt they will delimit that for offroad use. So you have the ability to easily add say 3 x 25l jerry cans with plenty of room and weight capacity still for a rooftop tent etc. Whilst I like to keep the weight lower, this is still an option. Cheers

[ramblingboy42]

Just wondering why you feel you need 75 extra ltrs of fuel on board.

I don't think I can now drive anywhere and not be able to purchase fuel anywhere in a 4-500km radius.

My vehicle has a normal driving range of 850 km, makes carrying fuel a surplus requirement.

[Deefa]

A few photos of the Grenadier at my local Noosa autogroup for interest. Roof rack looks good but didnt order one. Snorkel is good as well. Seat quality Recaros. I measured the rear seat and its a little higher that the front seats but not like an old defender which is a lot higher.183146

[Deefa]

18314718314818314918315018315118315218315318315418 3155183156183157

[ozscott]

Just wondering why you feel you need 75 extra ltrs of fuel on board.

I don't think I can now drive anywhere and not be able to purchase fuel anywhere in a 4-500km radius.

My vehicle has a normal driving range of 850 km, makes carrying fuel a surplus requirement.Mate I am thinking of dessert trips or exploring say Lakefield National Park or similar places at Cape York. Even if you don't want to pay exorbitant Island fuel prices when going to Fraser for example. Also the Ineos wont be getting 850k from its little tank when offroad or loaded and touring. I doubt it would get close to that on the bitumen. Cheers

[scarry]

Mate I am thinking of dessert trips or exploring say Lakefield National Park or similar places at Cape York. Even if you don't want to pay exorbitant Island fuel prices when going to Fraser for example. Also the Ineos wont be getting 850k from its little tank when offroad or loaded and touring. I doubt it would get close to that on the bitumen. Cheers

Exactly,since owning a vehicle with a large fuel tank,we have realised how convenient it is to have.

The max i could ever get in the D4 was 76L,which was a pain,particularly if towing.

And if you follow the fuel cycle,which i dont,a heap of $$ can be saved with a larger tank.

[Saitch]

Mate I am thinking of dessert trips or exploring say Lakefield National Park or similar places at Cape York. Even if you don't want to pay exorbitant Island fuel prices when going to Fraser for example. Also the Ineos wont be getting 850k from its little tank when offroad or loaded and touring. I doubt it would get close to that on the bitumen. Cheers

Yep. I have 180 litres fuel capacity on my old Toyota 'tilly and it's definitely handy to have on places like Fraser, or even an extended stay on Moreton, where presently, fuel is $80 for 20 litres. :o

[ozscott]

Yep. I have 180 litres fuel capacity on my old Toyota 'tilly and it's definitely handy to have on places like Fraser, or even an extended stay on Moreton, where presently, fuel is $80 for 20 litres. :oYep mate. Can't have too much in those places. I had 120l from the last fuel up to Lakefield in the far north and it allowed a little exploration but not much. Could have done with another 25 to 50 litres for 4-5 days there. Cheers

[Tins]

Yep mate. Can't have too much in those places. I had 120l from the last fuel up to Lakefield in the far north and it allowed a little exploration but not much. Could have done with another 25 to 50 litres for 4-5 days there. Cheers

OKA has about 200l ( never accurately measured it and now I can't afford to!:soapbox: ) and it needs more.

Besides, a fuel tank can get punctured. Having some extra diesel on board could be a lifesaver.

[Tombie]

Yep. I have 180 litres fuel capacity on my old Toyota 'tilly and it's definitely handy to have on places like Fraser, or even an extended stay on Moreton, where presently, fuel is $80 for 20 litres. :o

Are you suggesting once on Moreton Island you do over 400km of driving? Bloody hell [emoji41]

[ramblingboy42]

all points accepted.

does anyone know what range a tankfull of fuel in the grenadier has?

[ozscott]

all points accepted.

does anyone know what range a tankfull of fuel in the grenadier has?90 litres mate. They speak of a range of over 800klm factory but for a laden touring version especially with stuff on the roof which it is very likely to have given lack of space inside then I doubt the highway would see better than 550 to 600k and then offroad would be less again. Cheers

[Xtreme]

At the drive day that I attended some time ago the driver who made a very quick run from SA to Qld claimed to have achieved 10 to 10.5 l/100km. Admittedly he would have been travelling light & with nothing on the roof.
But still not bad for the speeds he claimed to be travelling at.

[Tins]

At the drive day that I attended some time ago the driver who made a very quick run from SA to Qld claimed to have achieved 10 to 10.5 l/100km. Admittedly he would have been travelling light & with nothing on the roof.
But still not bad for the speeds he claimed to be travelling at.

About the same as a TD5 D2 then.

[Saitch]

Are you suggesting once on Moreton Island you do over 400km of driving? Bloody hell [emoji41]

I got back on Tuesday, after a fortnight on Moreton and the little, orange light on the main fuel (90l) gauge winked a couple of times on some hills near home. From home to home, looking for fishy areas, two trips to North Point and the obligatory trip to Toulkerrie Oysters, at the Southern end, I did about 460-500 km this trip to Moreton. I used a bit more fuel than usual as the sand was pretty soft and I did a bit of extraction/recovery work. [bigsmile1]

If staying for more than a fortnight, I would have cause to access the auxiliary tank, also 90l.

I've known people with 80l tanks to need fuel, after only a week there! [biggrin]
They're normally the 'P' plate, bling brigade though.

Edit: It's about 140 km round trip from home to the ferry, to home.

[Tins]

Are you suggesting once on Moreton Island you do over 400km of driving? Bloody hell [emoji41]

Maybe an indicated 300 of those are spinning his wheels at Inskip :burnrubber:

[scarry]

Fraser is the place a large fuel tank is very helpfull,we generally use at least twice the fuel there than Moreton.

Although last time we were at Fraser, it had recently rained,which reduced fuel use dramatically.

[Saitch]

Maybe an indicated 300 of those are spinning his wheels at Inskip :burnrubber:

Moreton via Inskip would take both tanks. [biggrin]

[Tins]

Moreton via Inskip would take both tanks. [biggrin]

Possibly. Put your glasses on, Tins...

[scarry]

Moreton via Inskip would take both tanks. [biggrin]

Actually, in the LC, i can do it easily on one tank,with heaps to spare.Borderline in the old D4,probably would have to top up somewhere.
Thats from Pinkenba,where the Moreton ferry leaves,to Inskip and back.

So if you have a big tank,no worries[wink11]

[Tins]

Moreton via Inskip would take both tanks. [biggrin]

Of course, they’ve moved it since I lived there.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Just wondering why you feel you need 75 extra ltrs of fuel on board.

I don't think I can now drive anywhere and not be able to purchase fuel anywhere in a 4-500km radius.

My vehicle has a normal driving range of 850 km, makes carrying fuel a surplus requirement.

Ummm... driving across the Simpson for instance... On the Madigan I try and carry 220-240l of diesel. I have 130 in the tank (or maybe it's realistically 120) and I carry 100 in jerry's. I typically get into Birdsville with 40-50 left which is a comfortable reserve. I've never got there with the light on but 1/4 is typical.

If you go driving in sand you might find 20/100 is to be planned for just in case the sand is soft..

[Captain_Rightfoot]

all points accepted.

does anyone know what range a tankfull of fuel in the grenadier has?

As others have stated the tank for both fuel types is 90. The stated economy is 10.5 for the diesel and 12.6 for the petrol.

We will have to wait until the cars are in the hands of owners to find out what the real world economy is.

Also, once the cars get here the aftermarket will no doubt be trying to find ways to increase the fuel capacity as a matter of urgency. Time will tell.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So.. can I just say.. on the Grenadier forum it's quite alarming how many Defender owners there are. Like almost universally with the occasional G-wagon person.

When Grenadier production gets going there is going to be an unusual supply of defenders on the second hand market...

[Tins]

Also, once the cars get here the aftermarket will no doubt be trying to find ways to increase the fuel capacity as a matter of urgency. Time will tell.

At the same time as they are increasing the weight.....

[Deefa]

So.. can I just say.. on the Grenadier forum it's quite alarming how many Defender owners there are. Like almost universally with the occasional G-wagon person.

When Grenadier production gets going there is going to be an unusual supply of defenders on the second hand market...

Perhaps, I was going to move mine on but now decided to keep it. there is plenty of demand out there for used Defenders. my feeling is with only about 35k at max capacity of the new grenadier built each year their going to easy sell that. the old Defender had about 10 to 20 thousand a year towards the end. Land Rover didn't bother with advertising them much. Thats without the massive US market which could easily swallow the whole production.

[rar110]

At the drive day that I attended some time ago the driver who made a very quick run from SA to Qld claimed to have achieved 10 to 10.5 l/100km. Admittedly he would have been travelling light & with nothing on the roof.
But still not bad for the speeds he claimed to be travelling at.

Sounds realistic. I would have thought 9-10l/100km would be possible. So should get 800km from 90lt tank. My prev L322 tdv8 with ZF HP26 would get that on the HW.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Perhaps, I was going to move mine on but now decided to keep it. there is plenty of demand out there for used Defenders. my feeling is with only about 35k at max capacity of the new grenadier built each year their going to easy sell that. the old Defender had about 10 to 20 thousand a year towards the end. Land Rover didn't bother with advertising them much. Thats without the massive US market which could easily swallow the whole production.
When I bought my TD5 they were selling 150-200 a year annually in Aus. So there is not a lot of them!

[Hoges]

So.. can I just say.. on the Grenadier forum it's quite alarming how many Defender owners there are. Like almost universally with the occasional G-wagon person.

When Grenadier production gets going there is going to be an unusual supply of defenders on the second hand market...

Not surprising.... after all, it is a very keen Defender owning farmer who's decided that since JLR weren't going to manufacture the Defender any more that he'd build his own![bigsmile]. I'm not so sure that many classic 'Defender' owners will suddenly divest their vehicles when they take delivery of their IGs ... to be kept for special occasions perhaps? [thumbsupbig]

[RANDLOVER]

Well I've seen my 1st Grenadier on an Australian road of sorts, while watching the Men's Nat'l Road Cycling Champs on TV held in Ballarat on 8th Jan, I spotted two Grenadiers, one silver, one dark green beside the road on Mt Buninyong, about 11 or 12kms from the finish line, I saw them a few times as it was a multiple lap format, won by Luke Plapp from the Ineos Grenadier team.

[Tote]

I think I saw one on the opposite carriage way on the Hume heading home from Sydney the other day, caught sight of some alpine lights and they weren't on a Defender so I'm assuming a Grenadier, unfortunately I only got a fleeting glimpse.

Regards,
Tote

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So I had a good look over one yesterday. Didn't get to drive it. My thoughts are (in context of my 110 wagon).

The interior is awesome. Plenty of room comfortable. All we ever wanted in a real defender replacement. Basic but with fixed ergonomics. Brilliant.

The cargo area though.. it's nearly half a metre shorter than my 110. It is fabulously big and square though with minimal wheel arches and great access through the two doors. The reduction in volume will cause me issues though.

In off roading type considerations. It's a little lower than the 110 (although it's effectively lifted). Putting the steering damper as the lowest point at the front is an interesting choice. Everything does look solid and well built though. Where they route the exhaust over a crossmember might be a fire hazard in spinifex.

In summary as a package in terms of space and layout it reminds me greatly of a D2 which is not a bad thing. My issue is we do desert crossings with up to five people .. which in the defender is nothing short of an ordeal. But at least I can fit the stuff. In the Grenadier it would be a lot more comfy but I'm going to have to have a serious think about the packing. And then there is the issue of the 90l tank.. which means I'm going to have to stash a heap of fuel somewhere. Hopefully the aftermarket comes up with something quickly.

Either that or leave some kids home.

[Deefa]

So I had a good look over one yesterday. Didn't get to drive it. My thoughts are (in context of my 110 wagon).

The interior is awesome. Plenty of room comfortable. All we ever wanted in a real defender replacement. Basic but with fixed ergonomics. Brilliant.

The cargo area though.. it's nearly half a metre shorter than my 110. It is fabulously big and square though with minimal wheel arches and great access through the two doors. The reduction in volume will cause me issues though.

In off roading type considerations. It's a little lower than the 110 (although it's effectively lifted). Putting the steering damper as the lowest point at the front is an interesting choice. Everything does look solid and well built though. Where they route the exhaust over a crossmember might be a fire hazard in spinifex.

In summary as a package in terms of space and layout it reminds me greatly of a D2 which is not a bad thing. My issue is we do desert crossings with up to five people .. which in the defender is nothing short of an ordeal. But at least I can fit the stuff. In the Grenadier it would be a lot more comfy but I'm going to have to have a serious think about the packing. And then there is the issue of the 90l tank.. which means I'm going to have to stash a heap of fuel somewhere. Hopefully the aftermarket comes up with something quickly.

Either that or leave some kids home.

Leave the kids at home. They'd probably be happier looking at their phones!

Yes I know what you mean. The defender is so thin in places like the doors and rear tub. The doors are only a couple of inches thick. The rear tub not even a couple of mm thick. Having substantial seals, some sort of soundproofing and metal there to support the roof etc takes up space.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Leave the kids at home. They'd probably be happier looking at their phones!

Yes I know what you mean. The defender is so thin in places like the doors and rear tub. The doors are only a couple of inches thick. The rear tub not even a couple of mm thick. Having substantial seals, some sort of soundproofing and metal there to support the roof etc takes up space.

It's virtually the same length over all. It's just that the packaging of the grenadier gives space back to the occupants. The defender might have been fine in the late 40's and 50's for a short journey around the farm or into town - but it's woefully inadequate for carrying 4/5 six footers for 3500k to the start of your trip. There would be no point to it if it replicated the packaging mistakes of the LR. Fortunately the roof loading is quite high.. much higher than the defender so can probably utilise that space more. The defender body structure.. is frankly terrifying. Close the door and watch the body wobble. The grenadier isn't like that.

[Tins]

I The defender might have been fine in the late 40's and 50's for a short journey around the farm or into town - but it's woefully inadequate for carrying 4/5 six footers for 3500k to the start of your trip.

On average, people are quite a bit taller than they were then. At 6'1" I was considered tall for my generation. I'm a pipsqueak these days.

In an earlier post you mentioned it reminded you of a D2 in packaging terms. I find my D2 to be lacking in driver's leg room, although I found one I borrowed with the HSE spec to be fine. How is the Grenadier there?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

On average, people are quite a bit taller than they were then. At 6'1" I was considered tall for my generation. I'm a pipsqueak these days.

In an earlier post you mentioned it reminded you of a D2 in packaging terms. I find my D2 to be lacking in driver's leg room, although I found one I borrowed with the HSE spec to be fine. How is the Grenadier there?
So I'm 186, so is my son. I set the drivers seat to where I think I would like it and we both had legroom aplenty front and rear. I didn't get to drive it though.. maybe I'd prefer it a bit further back on a long trip. There was plenty of room still for even tall back seat occupants though. That's promising.

Contrast this to the 110. On the way back from Ayers Rock in June.. I've got my seat moved forward to give more space and still I've got a variable lumbar support with his knee prodding me in the back. A real trial for five days of driving.

One thing though.. there is a drivers footrest that is actually space for the cat I'm told. Some people might want that area to stretch. I think I'm ok with it but some people won't like it.

When I said "reminds me of a D2"... what I meant was more the fact that it's a far more comfortable body strapped on top of what was essentially defender underpinnings. But the packaging is reminiscent too. I think from memory though it's probably slightly bigger in the passenger area and the boot although I haven't been that close to a D2 in a while.

I was really surprised about the back seat. Three big people and it was suuuper comfy.

[one_iota]

Overall height isn't a measure of leg lengths: thigh and shin: proportions differ. The first thing I bought when I ordered my old Defender was mudrails so I could shift the driver's seat back 50mm to get my long legs under the steering wheel. I'm 184cm. No one except a double amputee could sit in the passenger seat behind me! Good to see the Grenadier improving on that aspect. No issue with the new Defender either, in fact I've worked out how to fit stuff in it that comes close to the capacity of the old one.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Overall height isn't a measure of leg lengths: thigh and shin: proportions differ. The first thing I bought when I ordered my old Defender was mudrails so I could shift the driver's seat back 50mm to get my long legs under the steering wheel. I'm 184cm. No one except a double amputee could sit in the passenger seat behind me! Good to see the Grenadier improving on that aspect. No issue with the new Defender either, in fact I've worked out how to fit stuff in it that comes close to the capacity of the old one.
I also fitted the rails to allow me to get back a bit further.

the first thing the wife said was "I don't have to duck down to see out the windows. [biggrin]

[Tins]

https://www.drive.com.au/news/ineos-grenadier-ute-spied-europe-australia/

[spudfan]

Not from Ineos HQ but a motoring website
Ineos Grenadier Hydrogen Pushed Back Due To Lack Of Infrastructure (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-grenadier-hydrogen-pushed-back-due-to-lack-of-infrastructure/ar-AA16J1Bl?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a700501994e945a09d6d94c83b493272)

[ozscott]

This extended version will be the clincher for many. Much bigger and more utilitarian than anything still produced by LR.

Cheers

[discomatt69]

This extended version will be the clincher for many. Much bigger and more utilitarian than anything still produced by LR.

Cheers
And hopefully way better than the Toyota options with their wheel track issues, low safety standards, poor interior and crappy manual gearbox with pathetic clutch

[Tins]

And hopefully way better than the Toyota options with their wheel track issues, low safety standards, poor interior and crappy manual gearbox with pathetic clutch

Indeed. Single cab version would be nice as well.

[chuck]

And hopefully way better than the Toyota options with their wheel track issues, low safety standards, poor interior and crappy manual gearbox with pathetic clutch

If you spent as much on a "crappy 70 series" as a Grenadier you have a much better car.

I find the gearbox good - no problems with the clutch unless you tune them and then they have much more power than a Grenadier.

I actually enjoy driving the car

Was going to buy a Grenadier - version i wanted was $130 + compared to $80 for a 76 series

Warranty is also way better.

$360 for a service and that included loan car inclusive of fuel & etags.

[simonmelb]

Apart from the auto gearbox and modern safety features of the Grenadier, neither of which most owners would not be willing to trade off.

I would happily pay a lot more $$ to keep my family safer.


If you spent as much on a "crappy 70 series" as a Grenadier you have a much better car.

I find the gearbox good - no problems with the clutch unless you tune them and then they have much more power than a Grenadier.

I actually enjoy driving the car

Was going to buy a Grenadier - version i wanted was $130 + compared to $80 for a 76 series

Warranty is also way better.

$360 for a service and that included loan car inclusive of fuel & etags.

[scarry]

If you spent as much on a "crappy 70 series" as a Grenadier you have a much better car.

I find the gearbox good - no problems with the clutch unless you tune them and then they have much more power than a Grenadier.

I actually enjoy driving the car

Was going to buy a Grenadier - version i wanted was $130 + compared to $80 for a 76 series

Warranty is also way better.

$360 for a service and that included loan car inclusive of fuel & etags.


And we know which one has the well proven reliability,and huge resale values.

Something many other manufacturers can only dream of.

Oh,and the clutch,there was a problem for a few years,which was rectified around 2015.
A mate had one,travelled all over the countryside,pulling a huge boat around,no issues on OEM clutch.
And same as his son,used a 79 for work for 5 yrs,dragging a trailer around every day,never changed the clutch.

EDIT,The son has had a 76 for 3 yrs,no clutch issues,in fact no issues at all,it's like a breath of fresh air after having a Puma for 9 yrs.[biggrin]

[chuck]

Apart from the auto gearbox and modern safety features of the Grenadier, neither of which most owners would not be willing to trade off.

I would happily pay a lot more $$ to keep my family safer.

Simon

Each to their own

Had a D5 with all the safety stuff

Could not do what i wanted to do

Around here we have deer & kangaroo - cant get bars for D5's or Defenders that will provide protection.

Have found I pay more attention to the road, leave bigger gaps etc.

And importantly our Dog fits in the back (he sits at 900mm high)

[Tins]

Each to their own for sure. My boss had a 7x, whatever the dual cab one is, and by the time he had the rear axle widened, an auto fitted plus a few other "little things" it would have been around the $120K mark in adjusted dollars, and it still drove like a 1965 Bedford, only harder over the bumps. However, he also spent $$$$$ on performance upgrades, so the thing was a hoot for brief periods. I was always glad to get back into my D2 though.... or the R730 Scania. Both were far more civilized.

183468

[discomatt69]

Each to their own for sure. My boss had a 7x, whatever the dual cab one is, and by the time he had the rear axle widened, an auto fitted plus a few other "little things" it would have been around the $120K mark in adjusted dollars, and it still drove like a 1965 Bedford, only harder over the bumps. However, he also spent $$$$$ on performance upgrades, so the thing was a hoot for brief periods. I was always glad to get back into my D2 though.... or the R730 Scania. Both were far more civilized.

183468

I looked at them with full intention of buying one and setting it up as my dream tourer, diff correction with coil conversion , auto, needed power upgrade so it could hold top gear as in standard form they will not hold top with the auto, new seats new stereo, better sound proofing, brake booster upgrade, suspension upgrade, tire upgrade, then bar work, lights, UHF and a roof rack.
All up about 130-140k before I did the canopy, all good over a 2 year build, test drove a second hand one and thought na this one is knackered, test drove another one, it was exactly the same, back to the drawing board, test drove a D4 , decided to tempt fate with another LR, found what I wanted already modded near new, half the Toyota cost, 110,000 km and 6 years later no regrets and still love the D4

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So our defender.. which we bought in 05 has been a great car. At the time we looked at the Troopy but it was two doors only, had IFS at the front and leaf springs at the back. It was a substantially newer design though - but the 2 door thing was the end of it. On many levels though not ideal.

The car people are talking about here is the same car we cross shopped against our defender. Granted it has a new engine and available as a wagon now but essentially the same thing. And that V8 is not Toyotas best work. Drinks fuel, and the injector rebuild after a whiff of water is eye watering. I'm really reluctant to go there while I've got the Defender.. It's not that much better.

So along comes the ineos. It's basically a no expense spared modern interpretation of our defender. Great auto.. coils all round.. live axles. Great engine (your choice of economical petrol or diesel). Having sat in it now.. it's a very comfortable family car. It seats five in pretty good comfort. Compared to the defender which is between 0-2 in comfort, and another three in agony.

But the biggest problem with the defender is I'm the only one in the family that will drive it. The wife will only drive it in a dire emergency, and my daughter ... so I offered her to take the car camping to NSW (maybe 5h return) and she said "That's a really long way driving that car". The defender is the Ferrari of the desert .. but it's the thousands of K's to get there that's killing us.

So people (and my family) just won't accept a 1947 design. It's comically uncomfortable to be in, and a pain to drive. Who would have thought.. and along comes the grenadier. I think it's possible it will be the last ground up new 4x4.

If it drives well, looks like they are supporting it ok, and they don't increase the price again I'll likely order one.

[Tins]

But the biggest problem with the defender is I'm the only one in the family that will drive it. The wife will only drive it in a dire emergency,



Lol. Mine wouldn't drive the D2 ( too big she said, no bigger than your Ford I said, I lost[bigsad]) but she was happy to be driven in it, even more than the Ford. Refused point blank to get into the D1, although I admit it's a little rough around the edges. She would walk away when I looked at Deefers. I can't imagine what she'd make of the OKA.

When I'm done with the OKA, if the Ineos is as capable as a Deefer and drives like a Disco, and as you say has decent support ( wouldn't take much to beat LR there ) then I'll likely get one as well, especially if they do a 2 Dr ute. There's just me, so that'd be fine with something like a trayon.

It ticks a lot of boxes.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Lol. Mine wouldn't drive the D2 ( too big she said, no bigger than your Ford I said, I lost[bigsad]) but she was happy to be driven in it, even more than the Ford. Refused point blank to get into the D1, although I admit it's a little rough around the edges. She would walk away when I looked at Deefers. I can't imagine what she'd make of the OKA.

When I'm done with the OKA, if the Ineos is as capable as a Deefer and drives like a Disco, and as you say has decent support ( wouldn't take much to beat LR there ) then I'll likely get one as well, especially if they do a 2 Dr ute. There's just me, so that'd be fine with something like a trayon.

It ticks a lot of boxes.
The only negatives I've got on the grenadier at the moment.

- It's a little smaller in the boot than the 110 (still big though and far better shape and access).
- It's heavy. But safety.
- It's not cheap But what is?
- How well the brand will move forward is unclear.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Now they have production cars.. they are having international media events as we speak.

When these come off embargo which I think is early next month.. we'll get a good idea on the international reception. I suspect (from snippets given) it's going to be pretty positive which will really get them going.

Unfortunately when these reviews get out the waiting list will grow. But I'm ok with that.

My drive event is Feb the 5th. Should know more after that.

[Xtreme]

Has anyone else found the small door of the split rear doors on the Grenadier a bit too narrow to be of any use?
By itself it's not a very wide opening and I thought I'd have trouble loading anything much through it. Therefore for loading most stuff into the rear both doors would need to be opened.

[Tins]

Has anyone else found the small door of the split rear doors on the Grenadier a bit too narrow to be of any use?
By itself it's not a very wide opening and I thought I'd have trouble loading anything much through it. Therefore for loading most stuff into the rear both doors would need to be opened.

I haven’t seen one in the metal. Is it very different to a Patrol?

EDIT: I mean the split rear doors.... Son has a GU wagon. Left door is adequate at best, it really depends on how you load it. It certainly helps if there's a trailer involved.

[ozscott]

Has anyone else found the small door of the split rear doors on the Grenadier a bit too narrow to be of any use?
By itself it's not a very wide opening and I thought I'd have trouble loading anything much through it. Therefore for loading most stuff into the rear both doors would need to be opened.From what I have seen the Ineos is a lot wider than a (original) Deefer so it might not be an issue. Cheers

[Xtreme]

From what I have seen the Ineos is a lot wider than a (original) Deefer so it might not be an issue. Cheers
I agree that the Ineos is OK when both doors are open, However I'm concerned about the situation when you just have something small to throw in the back and just want to use the small door while leaving the larger section closed.

[Deefa]

The small rear door is Okay for shopping bags etc. Really its not much effort to open 2 doors is it. I would of liked a tailgate. Jobs around the property you can leave it down and drive about picking up hay bails etc. Or picnic on the tailgate makes a great seat and table. I think perhaps they are hard to seal effectively and that's why they didn't go that way. But im only guessing. My old classic Rangie was brilliant with a tailgate. But it would let in plenty of dust.

[scarry]

The small rear door is Okay for shopping bags etc. Really its not much effort to open 2 doors is it. I would of liked a tailgate. Jobs around the property you can leave it down and drive about picking up hay bails etc. Or picnic on the tailgate makes a great seat and table. I think perhaps they are hard to seal effectively and that's why they didn't go that way. But im only guessing. My old classic Rangie was brilliant with a tailgate. But it would let in plenty of dust.

The D4 tailgate was very well sealed,in fact that car did a better job keeping out dust than any D2 we owned.The LC200 tailgate is sealed just as well as the D4.
So it can be done.
MCGovern,how ever his name is spelt,the LR CEO(or whatever),was asked why the tailgate was dropped,on D5,and he mentioned some cock and bull garbage that they are a target for rust.I have never seen a modern vehicle with a rusty tailgate,yet alone a D3/4.And there are a lot that do beach work.Maybe he was thinking of an old RR classic.[bighmmm]Or an old Falcon.
Its a real shame they have now been dropped by just about every manufacturer,as they are so handy.Particularly when travelling and touring,camping,etc.
I think it is a cost saving factor,nothing else,and an easier set up to manufacture.

[350RRC]

....................My old classic Rangie was brilliant with a tailgate. But it would let in plenty of dust.

All you had to do to stop that was wind the windows up and open the fresh air from the plenum. (Cold non-recirc through the heater) Dunno if yours had quarter vents...............

DL

[TonyC]

I agree that the Ineos is OK when both doors are open, However I'm concerned about the situation when you just have something small to throw in the back and just want to use the small door while leaving the larger section closed.

20 years ago, I used a Patrol for work alot.
The split doors were OK most if the time, but you did need to open both a lot if the time.
The real problem was when you had a trailer on, the doors only open 90 deg, and the trailer drawbar occupies almost all of the space between the doors.

The up side is less reach into the back of the car.

My preference is for a tailgate, but you still have two doors to open, upper and lower tailgate, like my 130.

The single lift up door on our Subaru works well and gives a small undercover space in inclement weather, but the number plate depression collects a surprising amount of water in heavy rain 🤨

Tony

[prelude]

The small door IS small. I reckon a crate of beer would be a squeeze if it would fit at all. Shopping bags no problem. A golf bag? might also be tight if you've got enough in it.

When I tested the car last summer I found it to be the right choice though since it makes the other door slightly smaller which aides a lot in getting it open and stuff in when parked. Most people do not leave enough room in busy parkings for a full size rear door to open but the slightly shorter door will work. The added benefit is that when closing the small door to get through, the bigger door is wide enough to accept most cargo.

It looks a bit off and the small door is almost useless but it pays of in the bigger picture imho.

-P

[ozscott]

If it fits a carton in then it is good enough.

Cheers

[Tins]

If you are in Vic, and you are not on the list of invitees for a drive etc, apparently there will be a Grenadier stand here: https://www.vic4wdshow.com.au/

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If it fits a carton in then it is good enough.

Cheers
That would make it a slam drunk. [bigrolf]

[Tins]

That would make it a slam drunk. [bigrolf]

Oh droll, very droll.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ok so I went to one of their drive days yesterday. Drove around Mt Cotton. Not really very far.

Overall impressions.. I got in it and drove it. The overwhelming reaction is just relief. The cabin is so spacious. After so long putting up with literally 1947 ergonomics. It's comfortable and would comfortable for a multi day trip even for my giant family. It was comfortable in the back seat, and you can see out the windows without ducking. Passenger comfort is one of the biggest downfalls of our current car. How it drives on the highway is still and unknown for me.

Driving wise .. look it's a pretty tiny little course there. Probably didn't get it over 20kph LOL. It's fairly steep in sections and has lot's of big holes and ruts. The prototype had no working TC and the only traction aid it had was the centre diff lock so could see how the car behaved. It clambered up and over stuff without problem. Seemed to have good traction and wheel articulation. It had good visibility for a modern car although it's a lot wider than the Defender. Turning circle is no worse. The automatic worked fine and the manual selction of gears gave excellent engine braking. This surprised me. The instructor explained that when you manual select it locks the torque converter. Things would be pretty grim for you to use the hill descent.

But the big one is much to my surprise the wife wanted to have a drive.. and that she did. My Defender is just soo much for her.. the whole gear thing in what she considers to be stressful conditions. She drove it easily making off road driving wifes-play. :D This might seem silly but this is a big thing for our family. As I'm want to ride bikes and leave her to drive the car this would be a big help!

I lined both cars up and you can really see the differences in how they are layed out. The grenadier squeezes both the engine bay and the luggage compartment for space. I think these are reasonable things too. I didn't take a photo of this but the Grenadier is a good headlight wider too. The old defender sits a bit higher with the lift. I'm sure most people will do that for the grenadier.

Spent a while with one of the Ineos guys. They are in for the long game and know they need to build their brand. They seemed pretty committed.

183644
183645
183646
183647

[Tins]

That shot of the two together is interesting. It sure looks like the rear passenger door is bigger, so access to the rear seats should be easier. Hmm, on further inspection it looks like that's the case for the front as well....

Departure angle "looks" better. I don't have the specs handy but the whole car "looks" bigger overall, but that could be a product of the curvature of the panels and the wheels.

Reckon that's the most interesting pic of the car that I've seen so far.

EDIT: I mean the one taken from the passenger side. The one from the driver's side almost reverses that size impression, but that's perspective.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That shot of the two together is interesting. It sure looks like the rear passenger door is bigger, so access to the rear seats should be easier. Hmm, on further inspection it looks like that's the case for the front as well....

Departure angle "looks" better. I don't have the specs handy but the whole car "looks" bigger overall, but that could be a product of the curvature of the panels and the wheels.

Reckon that's the most interesting pic of the car that I've seen so far.

EDIT: I mean the one taken from the passenger side. The one from the driver's side almost reverses that size impression, but that's perspective.

The drivers side one I was cramped by poles in the shed so I used it to show the height difference.

The shot from the passenger side was further away from a normal height.

In thinking about it. If I had to summarise this. It's exactly what I wanted LR to build as a defender replacement. It's like the people who designed it really got it - and weren't corrupted by the business.

[Tins]

The drivers side one I was cramped by poles in the shed so I used it to show the height difference.
The shot from the passenger side was further away from a normal height.

Yeah, I got that. From the "normal" height shot it seems to me that the height difference is mostly the roof, hard to be sure. I'm going to blow that shot up to fill my screen.


In thinking about it. If I had to summarise this. It's exactly what I wanted LR to build as a defender replacement. It's like the people who designed it really got it - and weren't corrupted by the business.

I'm looking forward to seeing one at the 4x4 show. Without having seen one it's hard to judge, but maybe it's not just a replacement for the Deefer, but the Disco as well.

As a now single bloke it doesn't suit me, but a single cab ute, if they build one, that's a whole other story.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The other thing the guy from ineos said.. if you want the diesel buy the diesel. The issues that we're seeing are other manufacturers that haven't got their stuff together.

There certainly doesn't seem to be much if anything on the web about it.

[Tins]

The other thing the guy from ineos said.. if you want the diesel buy the diesel. The issues that we're seeing are other manufacturers that haven't got their stuff together.

There certainly doesn't seem to be much if anything on the web about it.

If he means what I think he means, that's a bold statement.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If he means what I think he means, that's a bold statement.
Ineos have included as standard a large water trap. He also claims BMW doesn't have DPF problems like other manufacturers. Certainly there is little evidence of the web of it.

Interesting as I was leaning to the petrol before that.

[spudfan]

Looking at the photo taken with the woman driving, I understand why the speed is not registering infront of the driver as per the traditional Defender. The steering wheel is smaller and chunkier than that fitted to the old Defender and would obscure any info infront of it. The use of manually selecting gears is interesting.

[Tins]

Good point. What's the HUD like Steve?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Rather than spamming everyone.. Today the embargo ends on the grenadier.

There is LOTS of press incoming both in video and print.

[Tins]

Rather than spamming everyone.. Today the embargo ends on the grenadier.

There is LOTS of press incoming both in video and print.

Because of it's Aussie bent I watched the Wheels one first. I expected a bunch of 'it's not a Toyota' commentary. Instead, it left me wanting a Grenadier....
[bigsad]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Because of it's Aussie bent I watched the Wheels one first. I expected a bunch of 'it's not a Toyota' commentary. Instead, it left me wanting a Grenadier....
[bigsad]
As someone who paid my own money and bought a Defender new in 2005.. when I look at the grenadier it's exactly what I wanted in a "New Defender".

Every car has compromises and positives and negatives. But... literally the only thing I can pin on it is it's not as big in the back as my current car, but space is space and they have put it into the passenger compartment which is what that car needs. 1947 ergonomics be gone. Thankfully.

It will be a sad day when the defender goes down the driveway but that's progress. I'm very glad I held true to what I know and have experienced and didn't buy a "Defender". I'll forever be disappointed that LR sold out and built a Discovery and not a Grenadier. It's not that I don't like Discoveries but they could have had both in their product lineup. Oh well.

This car was always IMHO going to either be a Unicorn or a total lemon. I need a bit more time but I'm leaning towards unicorn.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If you particularly don't want to like the Grenadier - I suggest you go off line for a bit.

The Ineos Grenadier is not just the machine the Defender could never have been, there’s really nothing else quite like it.


2023 Ineos Grenadier review (https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/2023-ineos-grenadier-review-international-first-drive)

[Tombie]

I hope it does well.. still won’t be the ultimate *tow* tourer as even its payload becomes limited.

833kg

Driver 80kg
Passenger 80kg
2x Sumo Kids 130kg
Bullbar 60kg
Winch 25kg
—————————
375kg
+350kg ball weight
—————————
725kg
+the 10% fuel missing say 10kg

98kg to play with and no accessories have been added except bar and winch.



Perfect tourer for just a couple though, not towing.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I hope it does well.. still won’t be the ultimate *tow* tourer as even its payload becomes limited.

833kg

Driver 80kg
Passenger 80kg
2x Sumo Kids 130kg
Bullbar 60kg
Winch 25kg
—————————
375kg
+350kg ball weight
—————————
725kg
+the 10% fuel missing say 10kg

98kg to play with and no accessories have been added except bar and winch.



Perfect tourer for just a couple though, not towing.

I wonder when we will see GVM upgrades for it?

[Tins]

I wonder when we will see GVM upgrades for it?

Possibly already in the development pipeline.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I hope it does well.. still won’t be the ultimate *tow* tourer as even its payload becomes limited.

833kg

Driver 80kg
Passenger 80kg
2x Sumo Kids 130kg
Bullbar 60kg
Winch 25kg
—————————
375kg
+350kg ball weight
—————————
725kg
+the 10% fuel missing say 10kg

98kg to play with and no accessories have been added except bar and winch.



Perfect tourer for just a couple though, not towing.
Is there any car that will do what you are asking load wise?

A mate of mine weighed his hilux and he had 75kg in total after he filled his tank. And.. the front axle was over and he couldn't legally get a driver in the front seat. And the car was empty. [bigsad]

[scarry]

I wonder when we will see GVM upgrades for it?

Maybe never as it will probably be a low volume seller.

There is a heap of testing and engineering that goes into them before they are passed by the regulators.

The GVM upgrades for the LC300 have only been available in the last month or so,and they were started before the vehicle was released in Aus.

[ozscott]

I will wait for the hype and excitement to die down and for some runs to be on the board for the vehicle as a WHOLE not just hope that it is the sum total of its well sourced parts.. It's not all hype though...


2023 Ineos Grenadier Review: Work to be done on this workhorse - Hagerty Media (https://www.hagerty.com/media/new-car-reviews/2023-ineos-grenadier-review-work-to-be-done-on-this-workhorse/)

Cheers

[RANDLOVER]

To answer the OP's question I think they will take off but slowly, as I went for a drive to Toowoomba this weekend to escape the heat wave which wasn't as bad nor as long lasting as predicted, but nevertheless I'd made plans to go past the Armstrong car detailer the Ineos agent in Toowoomba, but they didn't even have one on display and not even a sign that they are the Ineos agent.

[spudfan]

Future plans it seems will include a Defender 90 size electric version and a luxury model but with the off road capabilities tined down.
Ineos Planning Three New Models By Decade's End (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-planning-three-new-models-by-decade-s-end/ar-AA17eQhK?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6206bd6dec294f029e4fa4b08a8cfb0f)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Future plans it seems will include a Defender 90 size electric version and a luxury model but with the off road capabilities tined down.
Ineos Planning Three New Models By Decade's End (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-planning-three-new-models-by-decade-s-end/ar-AA17eQhK?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6206bd6dec294f029e4fa4b08a8cfb0f)
I really do wonder how they will navigate the ICE bans in europe. 2030 is not far away.

[simonmelb]

Looking at some of the more in-depth reviews, its apparent there's a list of minor candidate changes for Version 2 of the Grenadier. Some are bothered by the footwell, some not.

But for a first vehicle for a new company, they seem to have hit just about all the customer requirements with a solidly built vehicle.

For our family we don't tow anything and could on paper manage very well with this vehicle as a couple plus 1 tourer. Our total payload is just about 780Kg including Oztent, 2 lightweight kayaks, bike carrier, bikes, drawer system and all food and fuel. But realistically we would probably leave the bikes at home for big trips and we don't take them on the D2 as would be over GVM.

So the Grenadier is still at the top of our candidate vehicle list when the D2 wears out!

[Hoges]

This is an excerpt from the Road and Track chap who travelled to Scotland for the press tour: Was most illuminating![bigwhistle]

On our way back from the off-road trail, I wondered how the buying public might take to a vehicle that looks like a Defender or maybe a G-Wagen but is neither. The flashing lights and frantic waves of passing Defender drivers seemed a sufficient answer. Those drivers were enthused to see a conga line of purposeful-looking trucks up to their hips in dirt and grime. But maybe they looked a bit confused too. When we parked the dozen-odd, muddied Grenadiers in a parking lot for a tea and shortie break (God, I love the Scots), Land Rover drivers idled past the rigs like clockwork, slack-jawed. Then they rolled past again for another befuddled look.

Expect a lot of curious, enthusiastic stares if you buy a Grenadier.

It was hard to tell if classic Defender owners recognized the Grenadier as an evolved Defender or something completely different, but a parked Grenadier was always sure to strike up a conversation. At any rate, the smiles and waves of passing Defender owners told me that if you do buy a Grenadier, you’re inducted into the club as a card-carrying member.

I've ordered one, on the basis that it's my last 'throw of the dice' and will no doubt outlive me...assuming it gets here in reasonable time I might just tick off a few bucket list destinations[thumbsupbig]

[Hoges]

I really do wonder how they will navigate the ICE bans in europe. 2030 is not far away.

You're right to wonder....the ramifications are enormous
I've come to the conclusion that it won't happen in the timescale the political class dictate, and that reality is going to bite hard in the next two-three years.
Hydrogen technology is a very expensive pipe dream *
There's already a problem of rare earth metal supplies for EVs.
What's more, literally millions of people in the EU rely on ICE production for their livelihood. National economies depend on the ICE....
As Mr Darryl Kerrigan was want to say "Tell'em they're dreamin' " [bigsmile]

* this YouTube is quirky but the facts therein give cause for consideration...
Hydrogen Will Not Save Us. Here's Why. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zklo4Z1SqkE) .

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You're right to wonder....the ramifications are enormous
I've come to the conclusion that it won't happen in the timescale the political class dictate, and that reality is going to bite hard in the next two-three years.
Hydrogen technology is a very expensive pipe dream *
There's already a problem of rare earth metal supplies for EVs.
What's more, literally millions of people in the EU rely on ICE production for their livelihood. National economies depend on the ICE....
As Mr Darryl Kerrigan was want to say "Tell'em they're dreamin' " [bigsmile]

* this YouTube is quirky but the facts therein give cause for consideration...
Hydrogen Will Not Save Us. Here's Why. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zklo4Z1SqkE) .
That lady is great.. I think I've watched that one.

I honestly think Ineos will try and get exemptions from bans due to their commercial origins. But what about supply chain collapse? I can't see ZF and BMW continuing to make engines and transmissions (and all the other associated bits) just for Ineos. Even if Australia doesn't do a ICE ban I suspect our choice of ICE cars is going to become increasingly limited as we approach 2030

I think I'll buy a Grenadier. Better not leave it too long.

Interesting times.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is an excerpt from the Road and Track chap who travelled to Scotland for the press tour: Was most illuminating![bigwhistle]

On our way back from the off-road trail, I wondered how the buying public might take to a vehicle that looks like a Defender or maybe a G-Wagen but is neither. The flashing lights and frantic waves of passing Defender drivers seemed a sufficient answer. Those drivers were enthused to see a conga line of purposeful-looking trucks up to their hips in dirt and grime. But maybe they looked a bit confused too. When we parked the dozen-odd, muddied Grenadiers in a parking lot for a tea and shortie break (God, I love the Scots), Land Rover drivers idled past the rigs like clockwork, slack-jawed. Then they rolled past again for another befuddled look.

Expect a lot of curious, enthusiastic stares if you buy a Grenadier.

It was hard to tell if classic Defender owners recognized the Grenadier as an evolved Defender or something completely different, but a parked Grenadier was always sure to strike up a conversation. At any rate, the smiles and waves of passing Defender owners told me that if you do buy a Grenadier, you’re inducted into the club as a card-carrying member.

I've ordered one, on the basis that it's my last 'throw of the dice' and will no doubt outlive me...assuming it gets here in reasonable time I might just tick off a few bucket list destinations[thumbsupbig]
Congratulations!! Keep us up to date.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

https://youtu.be/gkbm7SKlmSU

[Arapiles]

Doesn't appear to have been posted:


2023 Ineos Grenadier review | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-reviews/2023-ineos-grenadier-review)

[Deefa]

You're right to wonder....the ramifications are enormous
I've come to the conclusion that it won't happen in the timescale the political class dictate, and that reality is going to bite hard in the next two-three years.
Hydrogen technology is a very expensive pipe dream *
There's already a problem of rare earth metal supplies for EVs.
What's more, literally millions of people in the EU rely on ICE production for their livelihood. National economies depend on the ICE....
As Mr Darryl Kerrigan was want to say "Tell'em they're dreamin' " [bigsmile]

* this YouTube is quirky but the facts therein give cause for consideration...
Hydrogen Will Not Save Us. Here's Why. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zklo4Z1SqkE) .

Dead right there, watch them U turn in a few years. Wishful thinking doesn't solve engineering problems, and there's plenty of those problems no matter what alternate you are looking at. It puts the Euro car makers in an awkward position. Could even be the end of the road for European manufacturers like Jaguar who are going all EV, even BMW and Land Rover might bite it if they go all the way. The Chinese (who are ignoring the wishful thinking) may come up on top. They already make some pretty good vehicles, and cheap. Its a rerun of the 1970s. Everyone thought product's from Japan were jap crap. Not so, they were good reliable cars and cheap.

[Tins]

Dead right there, watch them U turn in a few years.

Wasn't that long ago they were advocating diesels.

[scarry]

Could even be the end of the road for European manufacturers like Jaguar who are going all EV, even BMW and Land Rover might bite it if they go all the way. The Chinese (who are ignoring the wishful thinking) may come up on top. They already make some pretty good vehicles, and cheap.

Have a look at this,and it is up to date,not some old out of date click bait.

Ailing Jaguar Land Rover Has Options, But None Look Tempting (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2023/01/09/ailing-leaderless-jaguar-land-rover-has-options-but-none-look-tempting/'sh=72950afc1f70)

If it wasn't for the New Defender,they would probably be gone.

JLR also recently admitted they estimate losing close to 150,000 sales a year due to unreliability concerns of new buyers.
That is a huge % of total sales.

[ozscott]

Have a look at this,and it is up to date,not some old out of date click bait.

Ailing Jaguar Land Rover Has Options, But None Look Tempting (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2023/01/09/ailing-leaderless-jaguar-land-rover-has-options-but-none-look-tempting/'sh=72950afc1f70)

If it wasn't for the New Defender,they would probably be gone.

JLR also recently admitted they estimate losing close to 150,000 sales a year due to unreliability concerns of new buyers.
That is a huge % of total sales.Those reliability concerns seem well justified. I have been watching things on the multitude of Facebook owners groups and it scared me off. I would love to love and all that but I can't [emoji1787]. Cheers.

[scarry]

Those reliability concerns seem well justified. I have been watching things on the multitude of Facebook owners groups and it scared me off. I would love to love and all that but I can't [emoji1787]. Cheers.

One of the reasons we moved off to another brand,although if you listen to some on here,they are just as unreliable.......[bigsad][biggrin][bighmmm]
Also,i must admit,nothing in their range suited us either,and we wanted something new.

I can't see them ever shaking the unreliability issue,even if they try their hardest to sort it,which is what they have promised to do.At last.
Hopefully i am completely wrong.
With social media,etc,things travel faster than ever.

[simonmelb]

Wow - didn't realise things were that bad financially for JL. :-0

The Defender has been so well received and the LandRover brand is such a high value they should be a good target for a well funded takeover, hopefully as the Forbes article says by a backer with big electrification expertise.

Reviewers have been saying for a quite a while - too many models with are all too similar, confusing the market. We know they exited the off road heavy duty market so now are competing head-on in the very crowded luxury SUV market, with niche players picking off some attractive other market segments. Will be tough for the new CEO whoever that will be!



Have a look at this,and it is up to date,not some old out of date click bait.

Ailing Jaguar Land Rover Has Options, But None Look Tempting (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2023/01/09/ailing-leaderless-jaguar-land-rover-has-options-but-none-look-tempting/'sh=72950afc1f70)

If it wasn't for the New Defender,they would probably be gone.

JLR also recently admitted they estimate losing close to 150,000 sales a year due to unreliability concerns of new buyers.
That is a huge % of total sales.

[one_iota]

Here's Sir Jim Ratcliffe's opportunity to put the green oval on the Grenadier. All he has to do is buy JLR at a bargain basement price from Tata, sell the Jaguar bit to BMW, cull the Range Rover range and rename the Ineos as the Land Rover Grenadier!

[one_iota]

Those reliability concerns seem well justified. I have been watching things on the multitude of Facebook owners groups and it scared me off. I would love to love and all that but I can't [emoji1787]. Cheers.
I only have a 25-year history of LR ownership and I'm now only onto my third Land Rover so I'm probably not qualified to comment on the reliability issues that people who have never owned one and who are social media experts on lazily do. Mine seem to have taken me from A to B generally without a problem. Sometimes the distance between A and B has been a scarily long way. Sure I have had a problem once or twice but that hasn't stopped me from using them for their intended purpose. Luck might be factored into this but regular preventative maintenance and mechanical sympathy can take you a long way without a problem.

[Xtreme]

I only have a 25-year history of LR ownership and I'm now only onto my third Land Rover so I'm probably not qualified to comment on the reliability issues that people who have never owned one and who are social media experts on lazily do. Mine seem to have taken me from A to B generally without a problem. Sometimes the distance between A and B has been a scarily long way. Sure I have had a problem once or twice but that hasn't stopped me from using them for their intended purpose. Luck might be factored into this but regular preventative maintenance and mechanical sympathy can take you a long way without a problem.

I totally agree, especially the last sentence.
I've owned more than 30 Landy's over a period of almost 60 years. All road registered and have taken me all over Australia and have always brought me back home. Never had a major problem although I did have to drive the final 100km or so without a clutch on one occasion. Always kept them pretty close to standard mechanically, just a few accessories to make camping/touring more enjoyable.
Current Landy is a 2003 Td5 Defender

[one_iota]

The definition of reliability changes with the complexity of the machine. The Grenadier is not a simple machine. If a sensor detects accurately or not a problem that is worthy of attention that might be regarded as an issue falling into the unreliable category. Equally the rear vision mirror desilvering likewise. My Puma Defender sensors saved my engine from cooking as a result of a welsh plug leaking coolant. Does that make my vehicle reliable or unreliable?

[ozscott]

I only have a 25-year history of LR ownership and I'm now only onto my third Land Rover so I'm probably not qualified to comment on the reliability issues that people who have never owned one and who are social media experts on lazily do. Mine seem to have taken me from A to B generally without a problem. Sometimes the distance between A and B has been a scarily long way. Sure I have had a problem once or twice but that hasn't stopped me from using them for their intended purpose. Luck might be factored into this but regular preventative maintenance and mechanical sympathy can take you a long way without a problem.

Shots fired [emoji1787]Unfortunately what I am seeing from owners (a lot) on the Facebook owners forums are nothing to do with maintenance (these are new or near new very low mileage vehicles) and the issues are down to poor design and poor manufacturing. I a big believer in maintenance. My D1 and D2 over the last more than 2 decades have copped their fair share of 'preventative maintenance'. Cheers

[ozscott]

The definition of reliability changes with the complexity of the machine. The Grenadier is not a simple machine. If a sensor detects accurately or not a problem that is worthy of attention that might be regarded as an issue falling into the unreliable category. Equally the rear vision mirror desilvering likewise. My Puma Defender sensors saved my engine from cooking as a result of a welsh plug leaking coolant. Does that make my vehicle reliable or unreliable?Depends how many kilometres and years were on it when the welsh plus crapped it's pants mate [emoji1787][emoji106]. Cheers

[one_iota]

Shots fired [emoji1787]Unfortunately what I am seeing from owners (a lot) on the Facebook owners forums are nothing to do with maintenance (these are new or near new very low mileage vehicles) and the issues are down to poor design and poor manufacturing. I a big believer in maintenance. My D1 and D2 over the last more than 2 decades have copped their fair share of 'preventative maintenance'. Cheers

You must frequent the hundreds of forums I don't...but what would I know?

[one_iota]

Depends how many kilometres and years were on it when the welsh plus crapped it's pants mate [emoji1787][emoji106]. Cheers

Fifteen years is a long time in anyone's timescale. Have you inspected yours lately? If it was a 300Tdi the motor would be cactus. So having thought about it have you won your argument about reliability? Furthermore based
on all the evidence about Land Rover reliability you've accumulated why are you still here?

[ozscott]

Fifteen years is a long time in anyone's timescale. Have you inspected yours lately? If it was a 300Tdi the motor would be cactus. So having thought about it have you won your argument about reliability? Furthermore based
on all the evidence about Land Rover reliability you've accumulated why are you still here?More shots fired [emoji1787][emoji106]It is not so much Land Rover reliability per se I have a problem with as much as the new Defenders issues particularly given its significant new car cost and its 🦣 complexity. Anyway you don't have to like my point of view mate. Thick skinned. Why am I still here? Love the older Land Rovers and enjoy the people here. Even you mate. It is though healthy to be objective about things you love or own. Enjoy your much less complex machines as I do mine. Cheers

PS. my welsh plugs are sound thanks.

[scarry]

I think the reliability reputation has been done to death on this forum,over the years,everyone has different opinions,and have had different experiences,many of us over a number of years.
Same for brand bashing,it all gets a bit boring.

I have been on other vehicle brand Forums for many years,and they definitely don't bash brands like some do on here.
In fact it is surprising how many on the LC300 forum,have a new Defender as their other car.

A bit of friendly banter is good though.....
And we are all here to learn.[smilebigeye]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I totally agree, especially the last sentence.
I've owned more than 30 Landy's over a period of almost 60 years. All road registered and have taken me all over Australia and have always brought me back home. Never had a major problem although I did have to drive the final 100km or so without a clutch on one occasion. Always kept them pretty close to standard mechanically, just a few accessories to make camping/touring more enjoyable.
Current Landy is a 2003 Td5 Defender
So I have a 2005 Td5. It's been lots of places. It has been reliable. I had some famous youtuber tell me I was wrong and my car was junk. Toyota are the best. That's the fact.

The thing is I think the older LR's like mine were reasonably reliable, but if you did break down there was a chance you could meaningfully remedy it or kludge a work around.

And that is where the "modern" LR really suffer. They are very very dependent on electronics. If something fails you are done. We had a disco3 and a new ish rangie on a trip with me. The disco 3 decided it wasn't going to charge any more (and when I mean decided I mean decided). The car is still telling the new alternator not to bother charging whenever it decides to, months later and no one can workout why. Meanwhile on the trip, we found if you jump started off the rangie you had 20 minutes with a scan tool trying to clear the cascading faults caused by the low voltages. In the meantime lots of systems didn't work. We were in the middle of nowhere so we decided touching anything on the rangie was too much of a risk of having two dead cars.

So we started to use the Toyota that I was driving for jump starting and battery swaps. So I don't know why, but the only issues the Toyota had after a complete battery removal was it would loose the time and the trip meter. It could be happily jump started off anything with the required volts. For what it's worth, I believe my TD5 defender would also have been fine in that role.

I don't know WTF it is about modern LR electronics .. be it the optical fibre network that runs the car.. who knows. But other manufacturers seem to be able to get cars to be electronically reliable. IMHO LR should have a complete rethink about how they do electronics.

Will the grenadier suffer the same problem? I don't know.. but I don't think automatically saying "the grenadier will have more electronics than old LR" should automatically mean they are doomed to the same issues as modern LR's. IA have said they have tried their hardest to keep electronics to a minimum. Time will tell.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I think the reliability reputation has been done to death on this forum,over the years,everyone has different opinions,and have had different experiences,many of us over a number of years.
Same for brand bashing,it all gets a bit boring.

I have been on other vehicle brand Forums for many years,and they definitely don't bash brands like some do on here.
In fact it is surprising how many on the LC300 forum,have a new Defender as their other car.

A bit of friendly banter is good though.....
And we are all here to learn.[smilebigeye]

So my experience with modern LR's has been so traumatic I just could never go there.

Meanwhile my TD5 defender has been really quite awesome.

If I could buy a new version of it with the 1947 ergonomics fixed I would buy one. Hold on.. Grenadier...

[Tins]

So I have a 2005 Td5. It's been lots of places. It has been reliable. I had some famous youtuber tell me I was wrong and my car was junk. Toyota are the best. That's the fact.

The thing is I think the older LR's like mine were reasonably reliable, but if you did break down there was a chance you could meaningfully remedy it or kludge a work around.

And that is where the "modern" LR really suffer. They are very very dependent on electronics. If something fails you are done. We had a disco3 and a new ish rangie on a trip with me. The disco 3 decided it wasn't going to charge any more (and when I mean decided I mean decided). The car is still telling the new alternator not to bother charging whenever it decides to, months later and no one can workout why. Meanwhile on the trip, we found if you jump started off the rangie you had 20 minutes with a scan tool trying to clear the cascading faults caused by the low voltages. In the meantime lots of systems didn't work. We were in the middle of nowhere so we decided touching anything on the rangie was too much of a risk of having two dead cars.

So we started to use the Toyota that I was driving for jump starting and battery swaps. So I don't know why, but the only issues the Toyota had after a complete battery removal was it would loose the time and the trip meter. It could be happily jump started off anything with the required volts. For what it's worth, I believe my TD5 defender would also have been fine in that role.

I don't know WTF it is about modern LR electronics .. be it the optical fibre network that runs the car.. who knows. But other manufacturers seem to be able to get cars to be electronically reliable. IMHO LR should have a complete rethink about how they do electronics.

Will the grenadier suffer the same problem? I don't know.. but I don't think automatically saying "the grenadier will have more electronics than old LR" should automatically mean they are doomed to the same issues as modern LR's. IA have said they have tried their hardest to keep electronics to a minimum. Time will tell.

It may be an urban myth, but I was led to believe that the Italians, notably Ducati and Ferrari, decided to pursue electronic reliability by farming it out to the Japanese. Myth or not, something worked.

If cars are to meet emission and consumption standards demanded by the EU then electronics, especially computers, are essential. I just hope that Sir Jim only copied LR concepts, and not their execution.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It may be an urban myth, but I was led to believe that the Italians, notably Ducati and Ferrari, decided to pursue electronic reliability by farming it out to the Japanese. Myth or not, something worked.

If cars are to meet emission and consumption standards demanded by the EU then electronics, especially computers, are essential. I just hope that Sir Jim only copied LR concepts, and not their execution.
And you know how it is.. LR went down this path basically from the D3 on. They will have a lot invested in the way they do this.

The problem is throwing it all away and starting again would be expensive and courageous. I'm with you.. I hope they learned.

Electronics done well should not be inherently unreliable.

[Tombie]

And you know how it is.. LR went down this path basically from the D3 on. They will have a lot invested in the way they do this.

The problem is throwing it all away and starting again would be expensive and courageous. I'm with you.. I hope they learned.

Electronics done well should not be inherently unreliable.

OS Software on the other hand 🤪[emoji41]

[prelude]

Firstly, I do not believe the D3 to be the first electrical gremlin vehicle, take a look at the P38 for that. I have been going into the electronics of my landrover (said P38) far deeper then any mechanic should and probably would, perhaps only matched by the designers of the bloody thing :) and I have made some observations. Vehicles are very noisy environments (electrically) and most electronics do not like that. This is the main reason CANbus as a protocol exists and is used within cars as it uses differential voltage which can handle, in theory, the higher noise levels for example.

What landrover (and lucas by extension) seems to have gone for however is that they use 12v systems to reduce electrical interference, ie in simple terms: the "arduino" or micro-controller and it's constituent parts work on 12V rather than 5v or even 3v. This in turn means that any voltage drop below 12v has serious consequences for the various components in the car. The japanese were way ahead on electronics in the 90's and have probably used the experiences they acquired during that time in modern vehicles whereas landrover does not have that benefit it seems. In other words, landrover did what was reasonable at the time and like every choice, every up has a down and they chose this. :)

Also, having worked for and with several car brands and embedded developers let us not underestimate the complexity of modern vehicles. An average BMW these days has around 80! "ecu's" and literally has what you could see as a network with vlan's to separate critical components like ABS and airbags from the less critical stuff like lights to the "optional" stuff like your car stereo. A modern car is a driving datacentre...

Anyway, does not mean that jaguar/landrover or any other brand is to be excused for their crappy quality in electronics but arguably they have been overdoing the plumbing lately :)

Back to the ineos; since imho the most important component of the vehicle (the engine) is made by BMW and that comes with it's own set of ECU's over which ineos has virtually no control whatsoever other than get a customized fuel map perhaps I guess this is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing would be that the engine/gearbox combination is used very ubiquitously and we get a lot of R&D and bug fixes for free. The down side is that this combo was never meant to be used the way it will be in the ineos and if we (or rather ineos) wants improvements they will have to go through the business orifice that is BMW who is probably less than impressed by the sales figures of ineos.

To drive this point home: LPG was very hip in my country some 30 years ago and we had loads of cars driving around using it. Honda back then was still a hugely popular brand but their cylinder heads were not keen on the use of LPG which burned hotter. So the national branch of honda contacted Japan to ask if they could please fix that for our market. They looked at the sales figures of a mere 100k cars and decided that it was cheaper and more worth their while to just deal with the handful of warranty claims and leave it at that.

tl;dr The reliability of electronics has vastly improved. Ineos has the advantage of "a high tide lifts all boats. Unless they start selling real numbers any bugs will be hard to deal with. Hardware (drivetrain etc) components with defects or weak spots will probably be dealt with in the second version.

Cheers,
-P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I went past the Grenadier dealer near me this morning. 10am on saturday morning. All closed up.

I reckon all the people who wanted to look at one have looked. What they need now is for Ineos to deliver cars to customers, and demos to the dealers.

I've no idea what their business model is but the sooner the better for the dealers.

[Tote]

I'm not sure it's surprising, with a direct sales model and no dealer discounts car shopping on a Saturday morning probably won't be a thing in the future. The availability of online descriptions has changed the car market, I have missed out on two desirable project vehicles in the last couple of weeks, while I was deciding whether I wanted them or not others with a greater level of interest bought them sight unseen. When I bought my 130 the closest thing the dealer could give me a drive in was a 90. I ordered the 130 anyway. Toyota have been playing the "if you want it., order it" game for years now as well.

Regards,
Tote

[disco gazza]

A neighbour of mine has had a toymota fortuner for around 9 months. Was supposed to be delivered last December.
Then told early Feb, now its March but he doesnt think that it will arrive before April or May.
He's got a hilux tray top as a loaner at the moment and he thinks it ****. Horrible turning circle on it and rough as...

DG

[disco gazza]

A neighbour of mine has had a toymota fortuner on order for around 9 months. Was supposed to be delivered last December.
Then told early Feb, now its March but he doesnt think that it will arrive before April or May.
He's got a hilux tray top as a loaner at the moment and he thinks it ****. Horrible turning circle on it and rough as...

DG

[Tombie]

A neighbour of mine has had a toymota fortuner on order for around 9 months. Was supposed to be delivered last December.
Then told early Feb, now its March but he doesnt think that it will arrive before April or May.
He's got a hilux tray top as a loaner at the moment and he thinks it ****. Horrible turning circle on it and rough as...

DG

Fortuner is 11.2m
Hilux is 11.8m

Both terrible for their class!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Fortuner is 11.2m
Hilux is 11.8m

Both terrible for their class!
Both similar to the 110. :o

[scarry]

Fortuner is 11.2m
Hilux is 11.8m

Both terrible for their class!

The Ranger we have has a **** turning circle,seems from the specs it is 12.9M:eek2:
Unless the specs are wrong.

Everest is 11.8M,not that great either.

The D4 was always pretty good,as is the 200.

LC79 is very similar to Puma,which is horrendous.[biggrin]
But should give them a bit of credit,both they are not really built for around town use.

[Tins]

Fortuner is 11.2m
Hilux is 11.8m

Both terrible for their class!

Given the Fortuner is based on the Hilux platform it's surprising they found that 0.6. I actually think my OKA gets around tighter than that...

[scarry]

Given the Fortuner is based on the Hilux platform it's surprising they found that 0.6. I actually think my OKA gets around tighter than that...

Ground clearence seems to make a difference,Ditto for the Fords,Ranger and Everest.

I recon our Vans beat them all.

[Tins]

Ground clearence seems to make a difference,Ditto for the Fords,Ranger and Everest.

I recon our Vans beat them all.

Drove a Hiace for a bit. Dunno if it was better, but they always seem so when you sit on top of the steer wheels.

[RANDLOVER]

The Ranger we have has a **** turning circle,seems from the specs it is 12.9M:eek2:
Unless the specs are wrong.

Everest is 11.8M,not that great either.

The D4 was always pretty good,as is the 200.

LC79 is very similar to Puma,which is horrendous.[biggrin]
But should give them a bit of credit,both they are not really built for around town use.

Turning circle also matters when getting around trees, rocks, etc.

[RANDLOVER]

I went past the Grenadier dealer near me this morning. 10am on saturday morning. All closed up.

I reckon all the people who wanted to look at one have looked. What they need now is for Ineos to deliver cars to customers, and demos to the dealers.

I've no idea what their business model is but the sooner the better for the dealers.

The Gold Coast agent SLRV Expedition have a demo model in their window which is high above the road, so difficult to see. Unfortunately, it seems they are also M-F usually, but are making an exception for the Grenadier. From Facebook SLRV Expedition Vehicles | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/slrvexpedition/)

Due to popular demand, the #ineosgrenadier (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/ineosgrenadier?__eep__=6&__cft__[0]=AZW55gy-pgsJJh3MsvRTSoqjN8uiJZU-qDCNvkTxIi50TAWMqFYE5L3ng4CYdRCiFYvWBhIb24Z0jaSGzK 1J6hZD8xInjfXsXdkRjHS3irvJKwl1Upc2u0lVHHhu2gzniMpr MJbrRy8H4aI33QvffScg1hFC_tPwS3XpTLNxyutEVDOq6h_zGL 5hymYixE-Dotw4XO7ZxO4xUUbAQvX_1xV8QhjVgTSiHbaRKPM13Y5I5g&__tn__=*NK-R) will be on display until the 16/03/23 at ExpeditionHQ.

Mon 27th of Feb until 16th of Mar

Monday to Friday - 6.30am until 2.30pm

Saturday 04/03/23 & 11/03/23 - 8am until 1pm

No need to book, just come in and say g'day and check out this very capable 4x4.

All enquiries, please email us at https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t4f/1/16/1f447.png

https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/tbe/1/16/1f4e7.png ig@slrvexpedition.com.au

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The Gold Coast agent SLRV Expedition have a demo model in their window which is high above the road, so difficult to see. Unfortunately, it seems they are also M-F usually, but are making an exception for the Grenadier. From Facebook SLRV Expedition Vehicles | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/slrvexpedition/)

Due to popular demand, the #ineosgrenadier (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/ineosgrenadier?__eep__=6&__cft__[0]=AZW55gy-pgsJJh3MsvRTSoqjN8uiJZU-qDCNvkTxIi50TAWMqFYE5L3ng4CYdRCiFYvWBhIb24Z0jaSGzK 1J6hZD8xInjfXsXdkRjHS3irvJKwl1Upc2u0lVHHhu2gzniMpr MJbrRy8H4aI33QvffScg1hFC_tPwS3XpTLNxyutEVDOq6h_zGL 5hymYixE-Dotw4XO7ZxO4xUUbAQvX_1xV8QhjVgTSiHbaRKPM13Y5I5g&__tn__=*NK-R) will be on display until the 16/03/23 at ExpeditionHQ.

Mon 27th of Feb until 16th of Mar

Monday to Friday - 6.30am until 2.30pm

Saturday 04/03/23 & 11/03/23 - 8am until 1pm

No need to book, just come in and say g'day and check out this very capable 4x4.

All enquiries, please email us at https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t4f/1/16/1f447.png

https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/tbe/1/16/1f4e7.png ig@slrvexpedition.com.au

It will be one of the late prototypes - I promise. They were built in the factory as trial vehicles. They were much better finished than the early prototypes. It will have it written on the back windows. They are worth a look but no one is allowed to drive them except at ineos events and then it's only off road.

The production cars are not on the boat yet but they should be soon.

And I apologise.. I didn't make this clear. My local when the prototypes arrived was scheduling one hour spots all weekend for people to look at it.

[Tins]

Dunno if this has been posted before:

https://youtu.be/DK3uJzL4zqM

[RANDLOVER]

It will be one of the late prototypes - I promise. They were built in the factory as trial vehicles. They were much better finished than the early prototypes. It will have it written on the back windows. They are worth a look but no one is allowed to drive them except at ineos events and then it's only off road.

The production cars are not on the boat yet but they should be soon.

And I apologise.. I didn't make this clear. My local when the prototypes arrived was scheduling one hour spots all weekend for people to look at it.

That's right it does have a prototype number on the rear side cargo window.

[Hoges]

That's right it does have a prototype number on the rear side cargo window.

FWIW... The "PTO" designation on the window denotes a "Production Try Out " vehicle... it was actually put together on a "very slow" assembly line as they climb the learning curve to refine their production processes/calibrate the robots (and the staff[bigrolf]) etc.

[Tins]

I want the tie down rails...


https://youtu.be/R-Tnxp-2dew

[one_iota]

I want the tie down rails...



You won't need to buy a Grenadier to get something similar:


Pit Posse Dual S-Track & Ring Tie Down Kit at MXstore (https://www.mxstore.com.au/p/Pit-Posse-Dual-S-Track-Ring-Tie-Down-Kit/11024S?gclid=CjwKCAiAxvGfBhB-EiwAMPakqt4I5r_tzcT8YMh14pw09TcEyKjsz71P29rz-_Bo4PV3Ok4ggWYLoxoCK2gQAvD_BwE)

[Don 130]

And a baby Grenadier EV could be around the corner........

Ineos Rumored to Release an EV Off-Roader by 2026 - Expedition Portal (https://expeditionportal.com/ineos-rumored-to-release-an-ev-off-roader-by-2026/?preview_id=126477)

Don.

[spudfan]

Here is a link to Defender2 and some photos of the Grenadier crew cab on test. Looks very well.
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Pick Up (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic87077.html)

[Tins]

If they do a 2 door ute I'm selling the OKA.

[Hoges]

If they do a 2 door ute I'm selling the OKA.

something like this?

Pickup version spotted today in Graz | Page 6 | The Grenadier Forum (https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/pickup-version-spotted-today-in-graz.12410878/page-6) post #111

Log in | The Grenadier Forum (https://www.theineosforum.com/attachments/fb_img_1659163526535-jpg.7801892/)

[Tins]

something like this?

Pickup version spotted today in Graz | Page 6 | The Grenadier Forum (https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/pickup-version-spotted-today-in-graz.12410878/page-6) post #111

Log in | The Grenadier Forum (https://www.theineosforum.com/attachments/fb_img_1659163526535-jpg.7801892/)

Yes. That's cool.

[spudfan]

So no hydrogen version. With such a heavy vehicle you wonder if they are being optimistic with the charge range,
Ineos Officially Confirms All-Electric SUV For 2026 (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-officially-confirms-all-electric-suv-for-2026/ar-AA19XtxT?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=3d0d7ae9d5ea41cda4c13bbfae2b4ca9&ei=123)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So no hydrogen version. With such a heavy vehicle you wonder if they are being optimistic with the charge range,
Ineos Officially Confirms All-Electric SUV For 2026 (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/ineos-officially-confirms-all-electric-suv-for-2026/ar-AA19XtxT?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=3d0d7ae9d5ea41cda4c13bbfae2b4ca9&ei=123)
Can't say I'm surprised. Hydrogen just doesn't make sense. If you burn it in an engine there are lots of issues.. like fitting enough of it in the car, and emissions. If you use a fuel cell they also have big packaging issues, cost and durability issues.

And then.. name one country in the world where there are sufficient hydrogen fuelling stations.

If they want a car to sell later in the decade they need to decide now. An EV is the only safe bet.

[Homestar]

And then.. name one country in the world where there are sufficient hydrogen fuelling stations..

I remember this comment when LPG conversions just started out. [emoji6]

There are now several hydrogen generators on the market (that’s the game I’m in) and getting the hydrogen to go with them isn’t an issue. I think the whole tech is in its infancy though and needs another 10 years or so yet, but I think it’s coming.

Fuel cell EV’s make sense to me but not ICE hydrogen as it’s too inefficient. OEM’s are already building the EV infrastructure in their factories around the world so adding a fuel cell to the system isn’t a stretch.

[Tins]

In California there are currently 114 Hydrogen filling stations in operation or under construction. Long way to go, but definitely a start.

They legislated for this, one of the few smart things they have done.

Quite a few of the big manufacturers already have quite viable hydrogen powered cars in production, and that will only increase, so availability will increase with demand. Even OKA is designing fuel cells ffs.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I remember this comment when LPG conversions just started out. [emoji6]

There are now several hydrogen generators on the market (that’s the game I’m in) and getting the hydrogen to go with them isn’t an issue. I think the whole tech is in its infancy though and needs another 10 years or so yet, but I think it’s coming.

Fuel cell EV’s make sense to me but not ICE hydrogen as it’s too inefficient. OEM’s are already building the EV infrastructure in their factories around the world so adding a fuel cell to the system isn’t a stretch.

Like I said can't ICE it - so have to fuel cell. Have a look at the Murai. Huge car. no space. Hydrogen is quite the packaging disaster.

At any rate does "green hydrogen" even really exist until the whole electricity grid is powered by renewables? It only makes sense if there is abundant renewable energy. It's coming but it's a way off.

[cripesamighty]

As I understood it, nearly all of the commercial quantities of the hydrogen produced comes from coal. Also, it is an energy intensive process to manufacture so you get less energy out than you put in. I'm sure that will change over time.

[JDNSW]

As I understood it, nearly all of the commercial quantities of the hydrogen produced comes from coal. Also, it is an energy intensive process to manufacture so you get less energy out than you put in. I'm sure that will change over time.

Not quite right.

"Steam methane reforming (SMR) is a method of producing hydrogen from natural gas, which is mostly methane (CH4). It is currently the cheapest source of industrial hydrogen. Nearly 50% of the world's hydrogen is being produced by this method."

Electrolysis accounts for about 4%, and is the method espoused by hydrogen vehicle proponents. It produces hydrogen at about three times the cost of steam methane reforming.

There are a whole range of other technologies, none of which are individually very significant and coal is not a major one.

Compared to battery storage of electricity, which is currently well over 90% efficiency, the process of converting electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity is only at best about 60% efficient.

[Homestar]

Like I said can't ICE it - so have to fuel cell. Have a look at the Murai. Huge car. no space. Hydrogen is quite the packaging disaster.

At any rate does "green hydrogen" even really exist until the whole electricity grid is powered by renewables? It only makes sense if there is abundant renewable energy. It's coming but it's a way off.

100% agree green hydrogen is a long way off. Until we have huge off peak excess renewables it’s just a pipe dream and the rate we are are putting renewables in who knows - one of my other peeves is how slow we are moving in this direction. [emoji106]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

As I understood it, nearly all of the commercial quantities of the hydrogen produced comes from coal. Also, it is an energy intensive process to manufacture so you get less energy out than you put in. I'm sure that will change over time.
It's my understanding that most of it comes from reforming methane gas. Split the hydrogen off. Dump the rest.

[cripesamighty]

Not quite right.

"Steam methane reforming (SMR) is a method of producing hydrogen from natural gas, which is mostly methane (CH4). It is currently the cheapest source of industrial hydrogen. Nearly 50% of the world's hydrogen is being produced by this method."

Electrolysis accounts for about 4%, and is the method espoused by hydrogen vehicle proponents. It produces hydrogen at about three times the cost of steam methane reforming.

There are a whole range of other technologies, none of which are individually very significant and coal is not a major one.

Compared to battery storage of electricity, which is currently well over 90% efficiency, the process of converting electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity is only at best about 60% efficient.


Wasn't sure about the exact process but it is definitely energy intensive. It's going to be interesting over the next decade or two to see which direction we go.

[prelude]

Ah yes, hydrogen. I like the idea since we could in theory get it quite clean and it has many uses. Batteries, as they currently exists (lithium) are an environmental disaster if you ask me. But it has been the same over and over again across history. The worst tech wins (m$ windows, VHS, etc.)

I guess ineos had to do one because it is hip and happening. I'll stick to ICE till I am ripe for a retirement home!

-P

[spudfan]

New owners collecting theirs in..Morocco, then driving home.
The Hard Way Home | INEOS Grenadier (https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/gb/the-hard-way-home?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=HardwayHome)

[3toes]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230430/41a2488035a0e4a05cf08c6c9c772e3d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230430/f4016d6cf7dc5fea1c0b1e96e13be9b9.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230430/fc94e3bee82d6e865bd5a6772054c56d.jpg

First one I have seen on the road

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hopefully we start seeing them on the road here soon.

[Hoges]

Hopefully we start seeing them on the road here soon.

The "rumours" on other forums are that a few will appear mid-late June, with numbers increasing in the third quarter..

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The "rumours" on other forums are that a few will appear mid-late June, with numbers increasing in the third quarter..
Yes, but the numbers are going to be trivial for a while. Certainly this year.

I inspected the panelvan today. Awesome.