Thread: Starter motor playing up, again.

Originally Posted by AK83

Definitely shows Brown/Red in RAVE(that I have). If you look at the small markings they have for the wires, it shows NR, 2.0. N=Brown, R=Red(stripe), 2.0 = 2.0mm wire diameter(1.5 would equate to 1.5mm diameter wire, and so forth).

So that is what NR means! It made no sense to me.

Originally Posted by AK83

Have you checked fuse/fusible link No12? This is what gives the main power from Pos to the Brn/Red to the starter too.

The relay clicks, I'll check this tomorrow. ( I put diff in today!)

Originally Posted by AK83

There are a few fuses in the starting system. The energiser coil power for the relay comes from Fuse 23 in the pass fusebox. So even tho the relay may be good, if there is a break in the power to the coil, from ign switch to fuse23(pass) to power for the starter relay coil .. then relay will not activate.

Do you have test light? .. or just a multimeter?

Just a multimeter. I have a helper

Originally Posted by AK83

Unless you have a helper, it's hard to be in the engine bay and hit the starter at the same time. But what you would want to do(even with multimeter) .. is ground the meter or test light, set the power lead into terminal 85 of the starter relay seat in the engine fuse box, and see if you get power/bolts showing when you hit the starter(pos III). If no light/volts, then fuse 23(pass) or wire problem between starter and starter coil.

And this assumes you have already checked power to terminal 30 of that relay seat too(this comes from that 30A fusible link(LINK12) fuse.

Not sure you're knowledge on the electrical diagrams, a fuse with a cross type symbol between the two points = blade fuse. A fuse with a S-type symbol between the two points = fusible link type fuse(small square box type fuse).
There are a few fuse-links in the eng fuse box rated at 30a that you could use to test. The link(12) for the starter relay is the second on the left as you stand at the drivers quarter panel.

Where on RAVE do I find Terminal 30 etc?
The different fuse type on the diagram is new to me. thanks


For example, FL13(the one most left, and left of the starter fuse/link) is for main lights, you could tempily pull that one and use for the starter if FL12 is blown. But remember, easy test for FL12 is if you have constant power at term 30 on the starter relay seat. Term 87 is from the relay to the starter(ie. Br/Red) wire while you crank the starter.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Bohica

.....


Where on RAVE do I find Terminal 30 etc?
The different fuse type on the diagram is new to me. thanks


.....

If you're looking in the circuit diagrams, you see the relays drawn as a small box. It has the title above it ... starter-relay (R102).
Inside the small box diagram you see some numbers(30, 87a, 87, 85, 86) .... some relays don't have 87a, and in some rare situations have different numbers completely.

But the starter relay has those 5 numbers inside the box diagram. It has the contact switch for power(30 to 87a and or 87), and it also has a rectangle symbol for 85 -> 86. This one is the coil, energiser coil. That's the trigger, the circuit that activates/deactivates the main power through(30->87).

Originally Posted by AK83

If you're looking in the circuit diagrams, you see the relays drawn as a small box. It has the title above it ... starter-relay (R102).
Inside the small box diagram you see some numbers(30, 87a, 87, 85, 86) .... some relays don't have 87a, and in some rare situations have different numbers completely.

But the starter relay has those 5 numbers inside the box diagram. It has the contact switch for power(30 to 87a and or 87), and it also has a rectangle symbol for 85 -> 86. This one is the coil, energiser coil. That's the trigger, the circuit that activates/deactivates the main power through(30->87).

After increasing the magnification many times, I could see the numbers! thanks.

Fuses 12 and 24 are fine, so is fusible link 12. I took them out and measured the resistance, just in case it looks good but is buggered.
I can start the car by jumpering the exciter wire. If I try to do this two times in a row, the engine will run for less than a second. If I lock the car, unlock the car and try again, it will start.
Nor sure where to go from here.

Originally Posted by Bohica

...... If I try to do this two times in a row, the engine will run for less than a second. If I lock the car, unlock the car and try again, it will start.
Nor sure where to go from here.

So starter motor works using key?
Or not?
When you say jump the exciter wire, do you mean the down at the starter motor?

The coil in the starter relay goes to ground via the BCU. I don't fully understand the BCU electronical system, but maybe by jumpering the solenoid and not via the BCU, the BCU thinks the car is being hotwired, activating the immobiliser and hence you get the motor shutdown after the second try. Locking/unlocking the car then un-immobilises it again.

Just a guess.

Maybe turn off immo via nanocom while you are testing, so you don't get immo active.

With the starter relay out ... locate terminals 85 and 86 and pop a test light or multimeter into those terminals. Hit the starter and watch if you have power across them too. Note that even tho you have a happy starter relay, working starter solenoid, it'll all be no good if you have wiring issues at any of the starter relay ports.

Originally Posted by AK83

So starter motor works using key?
Or not?
When you say jump the exciter wire, do you mean the down at the starter motor?

The coil in the starter relay goes to ground via the BCU. I don't fully understand the BCU electronical system, but maybe by jumpering the solenoid and not via the BCU, the BCU thinks the car is being hotwired, activating the immobiliser and hence you get the motor shutdown after the second try. Locking/unlocking the car then un-immobilises it again.

Just a guess.

That is a good guess. It makes sense I'll turn off the Immobiliser via the Nanocom.

Originally Posted by AK83

Maybe turn off immo via nanocom while you are testing, so you don't get immo active.

With the starter relay out ... locate terminals 85 and 86 and pop a test light or multimeter into those terminals. Hit the starter and watch if you have power across them too. Note that even tho you have a happy starter relay, working starter solenoid, it'll all be no good if you have wiring issues at any of the starter relay ports.

Thanks. for the ideas.

Originally Posted by AK83

So starter motor works using key?
Or not?
When you say jump the exciter wire, do you mean the down at the starter motor?

The coil in the starter relay goes to ground via the BCU. I don't fully understand the BCU electronical system, but maybe by jumpering the solenoid and not via the BCU, the BCU thinks the car is being hotwired, activating the immobiliser and hence you get the motor shutdown after the second try. Locking/unlocking the car then un-immobilises it again.

Just a guess.

Maybe turn off immo via nanocom while you are testing, so you don't get immo active.

With the starter relay out ... locate terminals 85 and 86 and pop a test light or multimeter into those terminals. Hit the starter and watch if you have power across them too. Note that even tho you have a happy starter relay, working starter solenoid, it'll all be no good if you have wiring issues at any of the starter relay ports.

I finally tested the pins on the fuse/relay board and they all checked out ok. I put the fuel pump relay into the starter motor and it started. I swapped the relay out with the starter motor relay and it started. I t started several times. I am at a loss to explain why. I had cut the exciter cable to jump the starter, these now have a crimped spade connector, if I have starter motor problems again it will be easy to jump start the car. Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

Originally Posted by Bohica

I finally tested the pins on the fuse/relay board and they all checked out ok. I put the fuel pump relay into the starter motor and it started. I swapped the relay out with the starter motor relay and it started. I t started several times. ....

This could be due to the contacts where the relays seat into could be touchy. Still making contact, but after some time, they could become tenuous and give the same non start result.
Manhandlng the relays can strain the contacts, so when you remove/refit, or even just wiggle the relay can make the connection again. Could be corrosion, water, mud, grime ... only way to know for sure is to remove the fusebox(engine bay) look underneath for any suspicious looking wire connections.