Another Malaysian plane down ...

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Originally Posted by vnx205

Is there an equivalent phrase that can be used to describe people who consistently refuse to believe the possibility that their own government could be telling the truth?

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Non-voters ;)

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Originally Posted by garrycol

Of course the so called bullet holes most likely came from the surface to air missile warhead that uses a proximity fuse so it explodes before the missile actually hits the aircraft.

So these "bullet holes" have not been declared as such but are shrapnel holes from the missile warhead.

Don't let the facts get is the way of a good story or a political agenda.

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Exactly what was said by a number of independent experts when that first bit of fuselage was sighted and photographed.

But as you say Gary, never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory !

I've just found a news website that says MH17 was MH370 coming out of a wormhole and that aliens did it.
Since this is different to what any other news outlet is reporting then I'm inclined to believe it cos everyone else must be part of a government conspiracy.

I just assumed it was a ground to air missile that was designed to explode as it hit the target, increasing the damage.
Can't see any reason why the Ukranians would shoot down an unarmed commercial airliner. After all, as you said Mox, there were no Russian aircraft in the area at the time so there was no reason for a Ukranian pilot to assume the airliner was a hostile aircraft.

Of interest is the Ukrainian government tried to claim that the rebels shot down MH17 thinking it was an Aeroflot (ie Russian owned) plane. Western media did not support the idea. From evidence so far available, seems almost certain it was one of their own fighters. There are several of what could be overall described as conspiracy theories as to the reason. Often as more information emerges, individual ones increase or decrease in credibility. Could be something as stupid as trigger happy shooting without proper identification of target. The US military has a reputation for being more dangerous than forces from many other countries in this respect.

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Originally Posted by mox

Of interest is the Ukrainian government tried to claim that the rebels shot down MH17 thinking it was an Aeroflot (ie Russian owned) plane. Western media did not support the idea. From evidence so far available, seems almost certain it was one of their own fighters. There are several of what could be overall described as conspiracy theories as to the reason. Often as more information emerges, individual ones increase or decrease in credibility. Could be something as stupid as trigger happy shooting without proper identification of target. The US military has a reputation for being more dangerous than forces from many other countries in this respect.

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Yeah ................... what "evidence" is that ???? :o

Hope you're enjoying those drugs you're on. :Thump:

Here - I found some "evidence" on the interweb that suggests that the plane was brought down by aliens .................

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...14/09/1237.jpg

And apparently one of the flying saucers was damaged in the blast, and the "pilot" had to eject .................. they found him in a paddock a few km from the plane wreckage.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...14/09/1238.jpg

Must be true ................. I found it on the interweb. ;)

No less believable than the "evidence" you've posted ......................

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Originally Posted by mox

From evidence so far available, seems almost certain it was one of their own fighters. The US military has a reputation for being more dangerous than forces from many other countries in this respect.

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There is no evidence to support that, though you seem to think there is - to the contrary there is lots of evidence to support the opposite.

In your last statement you are now implying that the Ukrainians did not shoot down the plane but is was the US military - where did they come from??

You also need to do some research on how the warheads of the missiles work - you will see that the damage to the aircraft is consistent with a proximity warhead - the aircraft broke up in the air caused by a catastrophic decompression caused by multiple strikes from foreign objects - eg metal fragments from a warhead.

Typically these warheads use a proximity fuse so the warhead explodes at a distance from the aircraft. The headhead can contain various materials but often is an expanding rod and other fragments that cuts into the aircraft with the body of the missile with its momentum and remaining fuel coming in to finish the job.

From Wkipedia on the Buk Missile

"In general, the system identifies potential targets (radar), selects a particular target (command), fires a missile (launcher) at the target, and resupplies the system (logistics). The missiles require a radar lock to initially steer the missile to the target until the missile's on-board radar system takes over to provide final course corrections. A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 3,000 km/h (1,900 mph) (or more than 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s))."

Also - the initial Dutch report on the flight recorders indicates that the aircrew did not know before the incident that something was up - gun/cannon fire would not take down the aircraft in one go or at least quick enough not to alert - not a sound from the aircrew such as "oh ****" - the incident happened so quick that there was no alarm on the cockpit voice tapes.

Can be the possibility that the plane was hit accidentally by duck hunters?
Is a duck hunting season in Ukraine :p


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

The Dutch investigators have just announced that the "bullet holes" in the cockpit area are consistent with a proximity fuse type explosion from a missile - not bullets. Indeed they have recovered some of these fragments from the aircraft wreckage and more importantly from the bodies of the flight deck crew.

So while they have not said it is definitely from a missile the evidence points to that and when the fragments have been fully analysed we will know for sure what weapon was actually used.

Unfortunately only a preliminary report from the Dutch is available - concentrating on the data recorders but the broader investigation is well underway with information leaking out - the full report is not expected until mid next year.

These early results are supporting the Ukrainian version of events and slowly discrediting the Russian version.

No doubt the disbelievers will come up with reasons to counter this evidence.

Garry

Garry

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Originally Posted by garrycol

There is no evidence to support that, though you seem to think there is - to the contrary there is lots of evidence to support the opposite.

In your last statement you are now implying that the Ukrainians did not shoot down the plane but is was the US military - where did they come from??

You also need to do some research on how the warheads of the missiles work - you will see that the damage to the aircraft is consistent with a proximity warhead - the aircraft broke up in the air caused by a catastrophic decompression caused by multiple strikes from foreign objects - eg metal fragments from a warhead.

Typically these warheads use a proximity fuse so the warhead explodes at a distance from the aircraft. The headhead can contain various materials but often is an expanding rod and other fragments that cuts into the aircraft with the body of the missile with its momentum and remaining fuel coming in to finish the job.

From Wkipedia on the Buk Missile

"In general, the system identifies potential targets (radar), selects a particular target (command), fires a missile (launcher) at the target, and resupplies the system (logistics). The missiles require a radar lock to initially steer the missile to the target until the missile's on-board radar system takes over to provide final course corrections. A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 3,000 km/h (1,900 mph) (or more than 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s))."

Also - the initial Dutch report on the flight recorders indicates that the aircrew did not know before the incident that something was up - gun/cannon fire would not take down the aircraft in one go or at least quick enough not to alert - not a sound from the aircrew such as "oh ****" - the incident happened so quick that there was no alarm on the cockpit voice tapes.

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Such conviction and certainty....

If anyone is interested and patient (verbal translation) evidence presented by the Russian Defence Ministry can be seen here: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs]Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL) - YouTube[/ame]