MOST DANGEROUS 4X4 EVER MADE!

**RR46** · 13th June 2011, 08:13 PM

Hi Drivesafe

Glade to hear all are OK and there wasn't a more tragic outcome.
You might want to have a look at this link if you already haven't and see what you can find prior to calling LR. Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 25/00 - Anti-Theft Lock) 2006

**drivesafe** · 13th June 2011, 08:38 PM

Thanks big heaps RR46, if I understand that document correctly, the Range Rover does NOT comply with the standards.

Tomorrow is going to be a day of interesting phone calls.

**Graeme** · 13th June 2011, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Hi Garry, if you try the test, make sure your ignition is turned to the ON position and then disconnect the battery lead.

Before disconnecting the battery with the ignition on, you might consider connecting a set of surge protector jumper leads to the chassis and the battery positive lead.

**Dazza67** · 13th June 2011, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by drivesafe

While on the subject, does anyone know of any other make that has electrical steering locks.

A friend has just bought a new 2011 Hyundai I35 soft roader and it is keyless entry and keyless start, when you press the start button you can hear the electric motor release the steering lock and then 5 seconds later the engine starts, when you turn the car off after 5 seconds again you hear the electric motor lock the steering. It also has an electric handbrake, I might point him towards this thread to have a read.

Glad all are safe

Dazza

**RangieBit** · 13th June 2011, 09:41 PM

Hi Drivesafe,

As I read the ADR the FFRR/RRS/D3/D4 does comply with the provisions. Except....

The problem is that in order to do so it relies on an electro-mechanical link which is absent upon total power loss.

The specifics are in 25.2.6.2. The key cannot be removed until the transmission is in park, and the lock shouldn't activate until the key is removed. All of which is great until you remove the source of power by which all these actions are signaled.

Physically you can put the transmission in Park, and this should allow the key to be removed thus activating the steering lock. If all that was purely a mechanical interlock then no problem. This mechanical form of interlock is how Saab do it.

Now for the LR. Putting the transmission in park signals the key solenoid that it can release the key, removing the key signals the steering lock solenoid that it can activate. Take away the power and you can neither remove the key nor turn the steering because both of these solenoids default to LOCKED!!

The engine operates in position II, the engine stops in position I and the key comes out in position 0. All of this is in full accordance with the ADR. The rest however only complies on the condition that the battery is supplying power.

The pyrotechnic that detaches the battery only activates if there is enough accident trauma to trigger the rest of the SRS system. In an accident situation that traumatic, locked steering is kinda the least of your troubles. The wheels may not be contacting tarmac anymore anyway.

The system design criteria for all the interlocks seems to have ignored a total power failure (outside of an accident) scenario.

So, compliance depends upon power. Therefore I see only partial compliance. The ADR has no exception or conditional clause.

That's my reading anyway.

Good luck with the discussions with LR.

Iain

**101RRS** · 13th June 2011, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Graeme

Before disconnecting the battery with the ignition on, you might consider connecting a set of surge protector jumper leads to the chassis and the battery positive lead.

Yep - surge protection was a concern to me as well.

Garry

**Hoges** · 13th June 2011, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by RangieBit

Hi Drivesafe,

As I read the ADR the FFRR/RRS/D3/D4 does comply with the provisions. Except....

The problem is that in order to do so it relies on an electro-mechanical link which is absent upon total power loss.

The specifics are in 25.2.6.2. The key cannot be removed until the transmission is in park, and the lock shouldn't activate until the key is removed. All of which is great until you remove the source of power by which all these actions are signaled.

Physically you can put the transmission in Park, and this should allow the key to be removed thus activating the steering lock. If all that was purely a mechanical interlock then no problem. This mechanical form of interlock is how Saab do it.

Now for the LR. Putting the transmission in park signals the key solenoid that it can release the key, removing the key signals the steering lock solenoid that it can activate. Take away the power and you can neither remove the key nor turn the steering because both of these solenoids default to LOCKED!!

The engine operates in position II, the engine stops in position I and the key comes out in position 0. All of this is in full accordance with the ADR. The rest however only complies on the condition that the battery is supplying power.

The pyrotechnic that detaches the battery only activates if there is enough accident trauma to trigger the rest of the SRS system. In an accident situation that traumatic, locked steering is kinda the least of your troubles. The wheels may not be contacting tarmac anymore anyway.

The system design criteria for all the interlocks seems to have ignored a total power failure (outside of an accident) scenario.

So, compliance depends upon power. Therefore I see only partial compliance. The ADR has no exception or conditional clause.

That's my reading anyway.

Good luck with the discussions with LR.

Iain

very similar ##! problem with wife's 2005 AH Astra. Plus ignition key won't turn unless foot firmly on the brake pedal... makes it very difficult to service without the battery fully operational...

**reubsrover** · 13th June 2011, 11:19 PM

Hi Drivesafe,

Interesting experience, glad no-one was hurt. Just a query, you mentioned that your wife put the RR in Park, did she at any time turn the key off? It's an automatic reaction for most when the vehicle stops, I assume she tried to start the vehicle at least a couple of times. Just intereted in when the steerng actually locked. It would be good if someone could test this by disconnecting a battery on a RR while the engine is running to confirm exactly when the steering system locks. From the information given in the OP it is impossible to tell when exactly the steering locked. My SIII with no steering lock at all probably won't be much good for the experiment.

**Graeme** · 14th June 2011, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by reubsrover

It would be good if someone could test this by disconnecting a battery on a RR while the engine is running to confirm exactly when the steering system locks.

DO NOT do this! There will be a massive current surge that will destroy many ecus.

The battery was not disconnected with the engine running so it wont replicate the condition.

**drivesafe** · 15th June 2011, 07:27 AM

Just an update and possibly some good news about steering locks.

The RR was removed by tow truck yesterday morning.

Before the tow truck arrived I had to set up the RR so it could be moved.

On Monday, with no power connected, I found I could move the transmission from Neutral to Park without power and this also allowed me to turn and remove the key.

It appears I had got the steering lock off when the tow truck delivered the RR to my place on Friday night and it did not lock again. So it may need power to unlock and more importantly, to lock.

Yesterday morning, with the key out of the ignition, the steering lock was still unlocked and while I could turn the steering wheel, there was a sort of clicking sound, but this was coming more from the engine bay than up in the column.

To get the RR out of Park I had to supply power, and although I had recharged the RR’s cranking battery I decided to play it safe and use a donna battery, connected via a 60 amp auto resetting circuit breaker.

This way if there was a short everything was protected.

I plugged the battery in and had power, so no dead short.

I turned the ignition on and pressed the brake peddle and was able to remove the transmission from Park.

I tried the steering and as I did, I bumped the windscreen wiper leaver and this turned the wipers on.

But they only got to wipe one way and the circuit breaker tripped.

This was only about two minutes at most after I had connected the battery. To trip a 60 circuit breaker in about two minutes would take a current load well in excess of 100 amps.

So there is still one huge current draw somewhere.

The thing is, at no time did the steering lock lock again.

So on Friday night, why did the steering lock engage with the key in the Ignition position and RR in drive.

The fact that the steering lock has not engaged may indicate ( and I hope it is the case ) that the lock is a Toggle On - Toggle Off type set up and not just a spring loaded relay deactivated set up.

This would make it supposedly a fail safe system, but does not explain why mine engaged with the ignition in the on position and until I get the electrics sorted I can’t tell why it is not working now.

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